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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Fare>
beach, good morning!
<beach>
Fare: Long time no see. What have you been up to?
<Fare>
deep in startup land
<beach>
I see. Is it going well?
<Fare>
It was mainly OCaml, but these days, there are bits of Rust, Javascript and... Racket!
<Fare>
I've finally had to learn Javascript, and it's a mix of great and appalling.
<beach>
So I hear.
<Fare>
the great parts are the lispiness: good interactivity (not as good as Lisp, much better than other blub languages), dynamic language with semi-decent introspection (including eval) and higher-order functions.
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<no-defun-allowed>
1 + "1"
<Fare>
appalling: an API full of continuation-passing style, but no proper tail-calls!!!!!!! Also, completely different module systems for the browser and the command-line, both of which get in the way of interactivity. Still lack of bignums (on Firefox at least). Lots of "WAT" (see same named talk).
<no-defun-allowed>
I guess it's made into a loop by the event handler.
<Fare>
"at least, it's not PHP."
<no-defun-allowed>
Those are very low standards.
<ck_>
good morning
<Fare>
anyway, next week, I'm giving a talk at LambdaConf on the general purpose parts of our OCaml runtime, and I'm not ready at all.
<Fare>
my angle is how that differs from Lisp in good and bad ways.
<ck_>
'deep in startup land' sung to the tune of Springsteen's jungleland? :)
<Fare>
no, it's (ECMAScript 6 [M]odules) [J]ava[S]cript
<Fare>
as opposed to [C]ommon modules [J]ava[S]cript, or plain old [J]ava[S]cript.
<ck_>
oh ok, thanks
<Fare>
the common thing with require and module.exports is the standard used by nodejs for years.
<Fare>
the eczema 6 thing has lots of export and import statements, and is newer, and standardized relatively recently.
<no-defun-allowed>
crikey, etherum
<no-defun-allowed>
ethereum even
<Fare>
no-defun-allowed, indeed
<no-defun-allowed>
yep you're working for a startup
<ck_>
yeah that's always the tradeoff isn't it. great technical flexibility, but you need to infuse everything in buzzword-of-the-day because the money tap is labelled with it
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<Fare>
as far as buzzword-of-the-day, we might have erred on the not-buzzwordy-enough side :-(
<Fare>
We're full on into domain specific language, lispiness, etc.
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<jeosol>
Fare: are you working with any frameworks or it's just raw JS?
<Fare>
jeosol, this was raw JS, not a pretty interface, just enough to survive and demo the rest of the code
<Fare>
the goal is to generate much of the code
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<jeosol>
You mean automatically generate the JS codes?
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<jeosol>
I learnt JS in the past to small things here and there. Every now then I ask my front-end friends what is the JS framework to use for certain tasks and (of course) the frameworks changes all the time.
<Fare>
yes, automatically generate the "backend" file
<Fare>
so app frontend designers can focus on the actual frontend
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<jeosol>
Very cool. My tests with CL are small examples and I render html on server-side and just re-load the whole page.
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<Fare>
There are plenty of CL frameworks that produce JS or help produce JS.
<Fare>
I was never much into frontend work, so I don't know them.
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<jeosol>
I think there is parenscript, not sure of the others. However, the JS frameworks my friends said where angular, react, and vue. Tried angular, it was a pain.
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<SaganMan>
Morning beach
<Fare>
angular is the older one. I'm told react is vastly better. I've heard of vue, but know nothing about it.
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<ck_>
I bet the next trends will be called ReVue and Actular
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<ck_>
Ok, so I've asked about some progress on the slime repository in #slime around 24 hours ago, and nobody has said anything since. That channel seems to be in hibernation.
<ck_>
Does anybody here know about that repository? Is the maintainer still ... stassats, I think his name was?
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<LdBeth>
If I have a CL implementation without a compiler, and COMPILE-FILE only reads input and write the output as is (maybe with syntax check), does it conform the ANSI Spec?
<beach>
No, it has to do "minimal compilation" which involves expanding macros and such.
<beach>
Do you know of such an implementation, or do you plan to write one?
<LdBeth>
I'm plan to write one
<beach>
I see. Well, you can then do what I have decided to do for SICL, namely I convert the source code to an "abstract syntax tree" which is like the source code, but with macros expanded, and it is more structured.
<LdBeth>
Something with only minimal conformance to the ANSI and CLtL2
<beach>
LdBeth: What is your reason for writing a new implementation? Is it going to have any characteristics that existing implementations don't have? Or is this just for fun?
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<LdBeth>
beach: It seems the ANSI CL makes some assumptions on how the language is implemented
<beach>
Definitely. Was that an answer to my question, or was it unrelated information?
<LdBeth>
I see Chez Scheme benefits from only makes minimal conformance to Scheme
<LdBeth>
So I'm trying to do the same to CL
<beach>
I see. So you don't care about things like performance?
<LdBeth>
I'm focusing on coexist with other programming languages
<beach>
Got it.
<LdBeth>
More specifically, sharing the same runtime
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<asarch>
Does anyone know what does "got error The function NET.ASERVE::WEBACTION-COOKIE-DOMAIN is undefined." error mean?
<beach>
It means that you have not defined that function, and you attempt to call it anyway.
<no-defun-allowed>
It means exactly from the third word of that message onwards.
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<asarch>
Can you give me an example about it?
<asarch>
The manuals don't even mention that function
<no-defun-allowed>
If it has two colons, it's internal and might be a sign of a bug.
<LdBeth>
In a more particular case, it means you've installed the dependency but it could be a wrong version
<LdBeth>
U should find who called that function
<asarch>
D'oh! :'-(
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<beach>
LdBeth: What language are you planning to use for writing this new implementation of yours?
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<LdBeth>
beach: probably Haskell, I'd use something like parser generator rather than reimplement READ function
<beach>
That would definitely not be conforming.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, how would you implement set-macro-character?
<LdBeth>
Creating a new parser on the fly?
<no-defun-allowed>
Eh, I guess.
<LdBeth>
It is however possible to change the behavior of a simple parser at runtime
<no-defun-allowed>
Odds are the parser generator would output something very close to the Lisp reader algorithm though.
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<LdBeth>
Yes, but meanwhile one can utilize the parser generator interface in the new implementation
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<beach>
What do you have against using Common Lisp?
<beach>
Common Lisp is the ideal language for implementing Common Lisp.
<no-defun-allowed>
It would also be easier to write a compiler to Common Lisp than Haskell for most languages.
<LdBeth>
I guess ANSI CL gets the problem because they assume people will implement CL with Lisp
<LdBeth>
So Kyoto Common Lisp could be a source of reference I guess
<LdBeth>
One would naturally use READ to implement the parser, for example
<beach>
It sounds to me like your current plan will create a lot of work for you, but maybe the purpose is not to minimize the amount of work you put in.
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<beach>
Clearly, large parts of the language are ideally implemented in the language itself, like defining the function CADR to use CAR and CDR.
<MichaelRaskin>
Fare: I wonder if you still care about Gerbil (never got around to implementing anything nontrivial for the Gerbil daemon in my system, everything went to Common Lisp one)
<beach>
But I would think that, for the base language, many implementations have chosen to use some other language, like C or C++.
<LdBeth>
yes, there a "core language"
<LdBeth>
And "standard library", although CL does not extinguish them
<Fare>
MichaelRaskin, yes, but not using it at work anymore :-(
<Fare>
work is OCaml, Rust, Javascript, Racket, Coq.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, Racket seems to be a good Lisp with good tooling
<beach>
LdBeth: Right. And the core is not unique, which is why I declined to define such a thing for SICL.
<Fare>
though I didn't personally write any significant Rust or Coq at work yet.
<Fare>
or Racket, actually.
<Inline>
morning
<beach>
Hello Inline.
<MichaelRaskin>
beach: Does HIR define a core set of operations needed for a SICL target in some sense?
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Sure, yes.
<MichaelRaskin>
Fare: a bit surprised about Racket.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Calling a function, accessing the slots of a CONS or a standard object. Fixnum arithmetic.
<Inline>
heya beach
<no-defun-allowed>
Pretty sure Racket was worked into a language-writing-theory language at some point.
<no-defun-allowed>
Which is why it has Scribble and Datalog on the website (and partial ALGOL60 and Java implementations not on the website).
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Binding a special variable, establishing dynamic contexts for BLOCK, TAGBODY, UNWIND-PROTECT.
<MichaelRaskin>
I think there should be something about conditionals
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<Fare>
MichaelRaskin: I got Jay McCarthy into the team.
<Fare>
Racket is the best language to write a tower of compilers in.
<Fare>
which is what we're doing
<Fare>
once the design is fixed, we can migrate to Coq, OCaml or Haskell if desired.
<LdBeth>
Parsing most CL code doesn't require backtracking often, am I right?
<no-defun-allowed>
No, you need only one character of lookahead to parse CL.
<White_Flame>
"parse" gets a little different with Lisp than other languages
<White_Flame>
because the reader technically lexes and parses
<White_Flame>
(depending on where you split hairs)
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<LdBeth>
But it's depends on the reader macro function to do backtracking if it does it
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Right, EQ.
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Also, access to array elements.
<MichaelRaskin>
I mean there should also be conditional jump, am I wrong?
<beach>
No, HIR is not linear. It's a graph. The EQ instruction has two successors.
<beach>
Depending on whether the result is true or false.
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah, so EQ is actually if
<beach>
Yes,
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<White_Flame>
LdBeth: if one of your custom reader macros itself implements backtracking, then it would have to somehow capture & restore the input stream state
<beach>
MichaelRaskin: Also FIXNUM-ADD and FIXNUM-SUB are conditionals, depending on overflow
<LdBeth>
White_Flame: I see
<White_Flame>
LdBeth: because the reader system as-is does not perform backtracking itself
<White_Flame>
why are you so concerned with backtracking and the reader? the reader performs transformations that are basically context-free
<beach>
LdBeth: You can avoid writing a new reader entirely. Eclector can adapt to the implementation.
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<oni-on-ion>
the context-freedom is how i am reapproaching all this sexp :)
<White_Flame>
the "context" that affects the reader are externalities like the default float format, disabling #. etc
<LdBeth>
Actually I don't know exactly where's the limits of CL's reader
<White_Flame>
what sort of limits?
<beach>
LdBeth: Since you can define your own reader macro functions, the reader can call arbitrary Common Lisp code.
<White_Flame>
yeah, just consider #. which can read and execute an entire major program just to read a single term
<beach>
LdBeth: Seriously, I think you are going to have to spend a lot of energy trying to turn a reader written in something other than Common Lisp into a conforming one.
<White_Flame>
personally, I which CL had some sort of higher level lexer tools in the reader, ending up more declarative. But this ideas don't sound like a step forward
<White_Flame>
s/this/these/
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<White_Flame>
it generally is best to stick with Lisp syntax, in terms of breaking punctuators and spaces
<oni-on-ion>
i see it now as 'subjective' programming than 'objective'
<White_Flame>
beyond that, the reader does a bit of parsing, but not to the level that most programming languages do
<White_Flame>
but LdBeth, what do you want the output of this backtracking reader to be?
<LdBeth>
The intention is adding higher level tools to CL reader
<oni-on-ion>
why not just add it to CL itself and get it for free everywhere else
<LdBeth>
and see if it's possible building CL from high level
<White_Flame>
LdBeth: which higher level tools? What is the intended output?
<LdBeth>
White_Flame: ideally I wish to make the program as close to the grammar defined in the spec as possible
<White_Flame>
there is very little grammar defined in the spec
<White_Flame>
and the only reason to really upgrade the reader is if you want to embed DSLs that don't use Lisp syntax
<White_Flame>
because currently existing reader tools are useful for prefixing new additions uniquely
<White_Flame>
at the single term level
<White_Flame>
for me, it would simply be a nicety if the reader would simply scan forward to the next breaking punctuation and give you a substring that bounded your term.
<LdBeth>
It's hard to decide, nobody would hate more powerful tools
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<patrixl>
guess it'll have to be worked around somehow...
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<jmercouris>
puri works quite well, you might also try quri
<jmercouris>
but you'll have trouble distributing a compiled application with quri since it loads a data file from an asdf system relative path
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<patrixl>
for some context, I'm using Radiance, which uses puri
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<patrixl>
noted for the suggestion to use quri, it won't solve my immediate problem though ;)
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<patrixl>
filed an issue in Radiance anyway, if puri can't be updated easily then perhaps Radiance can work around it
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<jmercouris>
you might look at where QL is loading Puri from and then you will be able to see how easily it can be updated
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<jmercouris>
to use Radiance you had to add Shinmera's QL dist anyway, so he could easily patch it and provide a different version on his dist
<patrixl>
very true on both counts
<patrixl>
how do I find out where QL is getting puri from?
<jmercouris>
look in your ~/.quicklisp/dists it has the information in there
<jmercouris>
just grep for some URLs and you will see
<jmercouris>
all of this said, I don't think the first URL you provided is a valid URL
<jmercouris>
I've never seen brackets in a URL, but I am not a URL expert
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<patrixl>
AFAIK it's a perfectly valid way of encoding arrays in parameters, when you're not using json to pass data around but x-www-form-urlencoded
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<patrixl>
now whether that should be used as GET or only on POST requests, is another question, I may be doing it wrong lol
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<jmercouris>
I think it is time to start using POST
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<jmercouris>
at least that is what I would do in your position
<patrixl>
or rather, time to rethink what I've been doing lol
<patrixl>
hmm not a bad idea, it might allow me to remove even more Javascript from my page.. thanks jmercouris
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<jmercouris>
no problem :)
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<leotaku>
I am having some trouble with sbcl, maybe someone here is willing to help. Essentially "(eq (intern "foo") '|foo|)" returns true when I interactively eval the code, but false when I run it as an executable generated by asdf or "sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die".
<leotaku>
Any help/ideas would be appreciated!
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<ck_>
the code you saved does not define the symbol before that code is run? I'm not too familiar with sbcl internals, but I would guess that '|foo| gets READ into a different package than what surrounds the (intern "foo") during evaluation
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<leotaku>
ck_: That would make sense, yeah. Any way I can ensure that both the literal symbol and the intern are in the same package?
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<ggole>
Qualify the symbol and pass the same package as the optional argument to intern?
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<leotaku>
ggole: That did the trick, thanks!
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<ggole>
Nice, that would seem to confirm ck_'s guess.
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<rdh>
where are packages supposed to go for sbcl? /usr/share/common-lisp/systems?
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<beach>
rdh: Aren't you using Quicklisp?
<rdh>
beach, no
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<beach>
rdh: You probably should.
<beach>
rdh: The typical place is ~/quicklisp/local-projects. And they are not packages, they are systems.
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<beach>
rdh: Oh, I mean that location for your own projects. Quicklisp will put them where it wants to when you install them with ql:quickload.
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<beach>
rdh: Did you faint?
<rdh>
beach, no im installing quicklisp, and learning it
<beach>
Ah, OK. Good.
<rdh>
beach, just being that im new to lisp... i don't want things doing work for me, when i don't understand what it's doing.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Anyway, I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family. I am sure there are others around to help you in case you need it.
<rdh>
beach, sure, thanks!
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<Elronnd>
has there been any research on representing lisp programs with something other than sexprs?
<Elronnd>
Just curious
<Elronnd>
I know about m-exprs, but those are super ugly
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<White_Flame>
there's some experiments with The Forced Indentation of Code to replace parens, too
<Bike>
i mean, compilers generally use various internal representations
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<Fare>
Elronnd, Racketeers have a large variety of experiments with alternate syntaxes, from plain old parsers to systems that allow you to do macros with infix syntax.
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<jackdaniel>
Elronnd: I've read that dylan was originally planned to use sexps but they have settled with syntax more similar to c++
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<Elronnd>
Fare: ah, yeah, I need to look at racket
<Elronnd>
I'm generally more of a cl guy, but racket is the Place To Go for syntaxes
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<aeth>
Elronnd, jackdaniel: I wonder why attempts like that didn't wind up going with a system like t-expressions (obviously not exactly like them since Python wasn't trendy in the 90s). https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html
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<oni-on-ion>
blech transpilers
<no-defun-allowed>
Just looks like a new reader to me.
<oni-on-ion>
it feels like it would be extra work for the brain. like using google translate to chat
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<mfiano>
Can anyone confirm that (ql:quickload :trivia) does not compile cleanly with the release in the latest QL dist? I'm getting an undefined variable, which probably means something is not going to work at runtime. Curious how a non-style warning slipped through QL though.
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<pjb>
mfiano: quicklisp only validates compilation on some specific sbcl version.
<mfiano>
pjb: Right, and I tried about 5 of them. I don't think version is at play here
<pjb>
mfiano: in ccl, I get a "can't be destructured against the lambda list".
<pjb>
in TRIVIA\.LEVEL0::parse-patterns
<mfiano>
Looks like a regression fix was committed 6 days ago, which looks like it touches the affected issue. I'm more curious what version of SBCL Xach is using, and how the version would affect this particular undefined variable compiling without a warning.
* oni-on-ion
checks on windows + sbcl 1.5.3
<oni-on-ion>
it loads
<mfiano>
Sure, but trivia is a transitive dependency of quite a lot of software, so there are likely FASL's in your cache already.
<oni-on-ion>
i just installed sbcl last night
<mfiano>
and what did you use it for since then?
<oni-on-ion>
it downloaded closer-mop and lisp-namespace as i didnt even have those =)
<oni-on-ion>
nothing. oh i installed McCLIM and its demo, thats all
<mfiano>
Every time you compile something, which occurs implicitly when you load/quickload a system, it stores the compiled code in your cache directory, and it normally doesn't recompile them. Quickloading a lot of software will compile trivia, and keep it around it your cache, and use the cache rather than compiling trivia again on subsequent loads.
<makomo>
i'll give it a go as well, 1 sec
<oni-on-ion>
yep i know. idk what cache there would have been because i dont remember installed trivial previously
<oni-on-ion>
having installed*
<mfiano>
You don't have to. It is a dependency
<oni-on-ion>
for what ? McCLIM ?
<mfiano>
It is compiled for you when something that depends on it is compiled
<mfiano>
McCLIM has a ton of transitive dependencies
<oni-on-ion>
this is a brand new SBCL install. not sure why i am stating that again. conjecture
<oni-on-ion>
there *could* be some dependency, but on computers, we can make assumptions and not check and see ?
<mfiano>
It's not brand new. You already installed software.
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<mfiano>
McCLIM will compile a good chunk of software on Quicklisp :)
<oni-on-ion>
smh well "it works on my machine" then i guess.
<makomo>
mfiano: loads fine, but i'm on SBCL 1.4.6-2
<oni-on-ion>
nah thats because of ur cache. its supposed to break!
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<mfiano>
Therefor for a proper test, you need to remove your FASL cache and quickload with the :verbose flag
<oni-on-ion>
why not just ask us to delete cache. i dont see the big deal to explain something that wouldnt be a thing if simply moving on to step 2 instead
<makomo>
hm ok, on a second thought, maybe it doesn't load fine
<mfiano>
Fair enough. I was explaining to you why it didn't matter that you never installed trivia before, since you seemed to think that mattered.
<oni-on-ion>
if you know trivia, and what it depends on, then could you not also know *for sure* if anything McCLIM depends on is somehow curing it.. ?
<mfiano>
No
<oni-on-ion>
i dont understand the assumption. ql:quickload even prints out the things its trying to load
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<mfiano>
This isn't about dependencies of trivia. This is about reverse dependencies of trivia.
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<oni-on-ion>
hm ok. should we each be googling how to remove fasls or
<jack-thomas>
Hi everyone, I'm having a noob prob. So I'm trying to use "run-program". I can send my whole function call if desired, but basically I'm try to use the keyword arguments ":OUTPUT :STRING" and I'm getting an error "RUN-PROGRAM error processing :OUTPUT argument:
<jack-thomas>
invalid option: :STRING:"
<mfiano>
On Linux, it's normally $XDG_CACHE_HOME/.cache/common-lisp or similar
<oni-on-ion>
mfiano, ohh, that confounded place! ok. trying from fresher-than-freshiest
<mfiano>
It's okay you don't have to
<mfiano>
I already got reports from about 4 people on various versions.
<mfiano>
All consistent
<oni-on-ion>
ok i wont. im sure one of them is on windows as well (or not, considering it loads)
<makomo>
mfiano: does it fail if you don't use :verbose t?
<mfiano>
It doesn't fail. It emits a compiler warning and 2 style-warnings on SBCL. To see the full output you would need :verbose, but it should still emit the single warning if not I think.
<makomo>
hm, i don't get any warnings at all if i don't use :verbose t
<makomo>
but with :verbose t it does fail
<oni-on-ion>
i smell non-CL comformances!!
<makomo>
; caught WARNING:
<makomo>
; TRIVIA.LEVEL2 also exports the following symbols: