phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<LdBeth> Good morning
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<bexx> Good evening for me!
<bexx> =)
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<LdBeth> for parsing, is it safe to assume if all subexpressions are well formed and match the context the entire expression is well formed?
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<no-defun-allowed> I think that sounds right.
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<shka__> LdBeth: if you allow circularity, yes
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<LdBeth> morning, beach
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<seok> hey, anyone tried out cl21? how complete does it feel?
<LdBeth> seok: at least it gets some principles of macro reader wrong
<jackdaniel> CL9001 (over 9000) ,-)
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<seok> LdBeth: that's a shame. is the misinterpretation serious?
<jackdaniel> seok: I think it didn't gain much traction because it just adds syntactic sugar (without addressing anything in particular)
<seok> jackdaniel: yeah, that's how it feels to me also
<LdBeth> seok: it means you cannot use the macro reader for hashtable or something properly in quoted form like '(a #{a b})
<seok> :ldbeth Ah. That's quite significant
<LdBeth> It is interpreted as '(a (make-hashtable-helper '(a b)))
<jackdaniel> seok: if you are interested in such things you may take a look at ergolib and ytools (the latter for perspective, I don't think it is developed anymore)
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<jackdaniel> clim spec may give you a good idea where symbolics saw CL in 21 century
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<seok> jackdaniel: thanks for the recommendations, ytools looks interesting, the link to ergolib seems to be down
<jackdaniel> did you copy it with the comma?
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<LdBeth> <jackdaniel "seok: if you are interested in s"> The link works for me
<seok> ah, a comma was included in the hyperlink. works without it
<jackdaniel> (please note that I'm not recommending anything, just providing a reference, I have no strong opinion about any of these, clim included ,)
<LdBeth> The more extension used, the more effort the reader has to put on to understand the code
<jackdaniel> that's why we should all use risc assembly to write programs :)
<jackdaniel> but more seriously, good abstraction and naming saves thinking (hence lowers the effort)
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<LdBeth> Besides it’s a despair not able to find/install a obscure library to run something
<jackdaniel> i.e it is easier to udnerstand matcher api than to understand its verbatim implementation
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<LdBeth> I would not insist if that feature is well documented though.
<pjb> LdBeth: working on the installation of an obscure library to run something is very instructive.
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<kenu> I've got a macro that return a list of parenscript forms, but I would like to have just these parenscript forms returned
<kenu> ie.
<kenu> ((SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 1) VALUE) "")
<kenu> (SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 2) VALUE) "")
<kenu> (SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 3) VALUE) ""))
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<kenu> but I would like to have
<kenu> (SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 1) VALUE) "")
<kenu> (SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 2) VALUE) "")
<kenu> (SETF (CHAIN DOCUMENT (GET-ELEMENT-BY-ID 3) VALUE) "")
<Bike> you want to return (progn (setf ...) (setf ...))
<kenu> exactly
<jackdaniel> `(progn ,@setf-list))
<Bike> you could also return (setf (chain ...) "" (chain ...) "" ...) which is the same.
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<jackdaniel> `(setf ,@(mapcar (lambda (elt) (cdr elt)) setf-list))
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<jackdaniel> bike@localhost$ <blinking prompt>
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<kenu> thanks for quick help!
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<ebrasca> What is your opiniont about Second-Climacs vs lem editors?
<Xach> mfiano: what is the AU package?
<mfiano> Xach: where do you see that referenced still?
<Xach> oops, in a project I need to remove.
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<flip214> Can anybody offer ideas? CL-GIT in SBCL works from the REPL, but a dumped image crashes on CL-GIT:OPEN-REPOSITORY with a SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR on #x19.
<flip214> Ie. right on the start, in the WITH-REPOSITORY macro.
<flip214> the backtrace shows the correct string being passed to O-R.
<hackware> hello Zach...
<hackware> been years...
<flip214> I already manually CFFI:CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY and CFFI:USE-F-L on dump and startup - but that didn't change anything.
<hackware> if you remember me at all... i was tinker@ibm.research.com...
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<flip214> ah, thanks. just needed some rubber duck ;)
<beach> ebrasca: Second Climacs does not exist yet for one thing.
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<beach> ebrasca: But the plan for it is much more ambitious than other editors when it comes to editing Common Lisp code.
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<ebrasca> beach: For now , is lem better?
<beach> Anything that exists is bound to be better, sure. But I haven't looked at it.
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<jmercouris> (cl-json:encode-json '(("customer" . "xyz") ("items" . (("fish" . "salmon") ("fish" . "salmon"))))) -> "{"customer":"xyz","items":{"fish":"salmon","fish":"salmon"}}"
<jmercouris> how can I make items into an array?
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<jmercouris> "{"customer":"xyz","items":[{"fish":"salmon"}, {"fish":"salmon"}]}"
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<pjb> (cl-json:encode-json '(("customer" . "xyz") ("items" . #((("fish" . "salmon")) (("fish" . "salmon")))))) #| {"customer":"xyz","items":[{"fish":"salmon"},{"fish":"salmon"}]} |#
<pjb> jmercouris: just use arrays!
<Xach> gavino?
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<jmercouris> pjb: ok will try
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<jmercouris> indeed that works for cl-json, thank you
<jmercouris> pjb: do you know how you would do the same thing using yason?
<pjb> just try it?
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<jmercouris> does not work
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<pjb> jmercouris: write a representation abstration layer! Something like: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0c66e597e08be90d
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<Bike> https://hanshuebner.github.io/yason/#mapping looks like it should encode lisp lists as js arrays.
<pjb> So instead of '(("customer" . "xyz") ("items" . #((("fish" . "salmon")) (("fish" . "salmon"))))) you would write (json (if (zerop (random 2)) 'cl-json 'yason) (dict (entry "customer" "xyz") (entry "items" (vector (dict (entry "fish" "salmon") (entry "fish" "sardine")))))) which would return a sexp or the other, depending on the target representation.
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<Bike> rip.
<aeth> honestly? The second I need to decode/encode JSON, I'm writing my own library... what a mess there
<pjb> aeth: more fundamentaly, my point is that you need a DOM.
<pjb> Using sexps is not adequate, because the JSON ontology is different.
<Bike> yes, please do that instead of making another json library.
<pjb> Alternatively, choose one JSON library and stick to it!
<aeth> Using s-expressions isn't enough for a round trip (while also having nil as false!) without tagging your conses
<aeth> i.e. adding a cons in front
<Bike> that's what pjb just said yes
<dlowe> The vector representation seems a lot nicer than sexps
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<dlowe> as far as encoding stability goes
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<aeth> dlowe: I would default to using vectors, yes. I am undecided on the best mapping for objects. Intuitively, hash tables would be, but that loses order.
<aeth> (Obviously, they would be there, but probably not as the default.)
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<dlowe> you can make cl-json emit vectors is my point
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<pjb> aeth: good point about order: JSON objects are not hash-tables! :-) Hence a-lists usually used.
<aeth> But empty alists have the issue of ambiguity. '() can be [] and {} and false (and null if you are evil, don't do this)
<aeth> Hence why you should do something like (:alist ...) so an empty alist is (:alist)
<dlowe> not if you represent [] as vectors
<dlowe> [] -> #(), {} -> ((a .b)), false -> :false
<aeth> '() can still be {} and false (and null if the author is evil)
<aeth> false as :false is terrible
<aeth> I do that in my Scheme out of necessity
<dlowe> wouldn't it be #f in scheme?
<aeth> #f is :false internally so I can reuse all of the CL list/cons functions
<aeth> But that's embedding an entire language in CL!
<aeth> I would much rather treat nil as false and tag lists if lists are used
<aeth> null, of course, has to be :null since CL doesn't really have a true null. Too many JSON libraries just pile on the ambiguity
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<pjb> Soon enough, you will find that it's better to define JSON reader macros to write json syntax directly, for your literals.
<aeth> pjb: That trivially follows from a certain kind of implementation, actually.
<aeth> I'm not sure how many JSON libraries go that route, of course.
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<fragamus> are there any bots to interpret code on this channel
<sjl> I don't think so.
<Bike> nope.
<pjb> fragamus: they're frowned upon. Instead, you can use M-x slime RET
<dlowe> everyone obviously has lisp repls open all the time anyway
<dlowe> I mean, why wouldn't you
<ck_> #clojure has bots like that because starting it up takes takes half a day
<pjb> fragamus: or for demonstration purposes, cl-eval-last-expression in https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-erc.el
<fragamus> obviously everyone has ghci open too
<pjb> fragamus: like: (truncate 10 3) #| --> 3 ; 1 |#
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<aeth> it would be hard to sandbox CL safely in a bot that's running arbitrary CL
<aeth> and to ensure that it times out after a while if someone tells it to run (loop)
<fragamus> > (loop)
<aeth> I think what beach is working on would be able to do it
<dlowe> I think clisp might be able to do it too, since it runs on a bytecode engine
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<aeth> Interpreter isn't enough for sandboxing. Basically only implementations of JavaScript and Lua seem to have gotten sandboxing down.
<aeth> Although it's possible if someone put in the work.
<hackware> sandboxing is taking control of interrupts... can be done with bash...
<hackware> in fact, script kiddies luv microsloppy's vb because it has such loose control of priv priority...
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<|3b|> what are good options for making a class mostly look like a subclass of some other classes, when the other classes are per-instance?
* |3b| 's best idea so far is just write some macros to redirect accessors/methods as needed
<|3b|> if it were only 1 'other class', slot-value-using-class could cover some of it, not sure about with more than 1
<|3b|> i guess a custom metaclass + compute-applicable-methods?
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<|3b|> though that might break caching, so maybe not
<Bike> per-instance?
<|3b|> yeah, multiple optional backends, that can be used at the same time in different instannces
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<|3b|> actual problem is interacting with windowing systems and opengl/vulkan/etc
<|3b|> so for example on linux, i might have xlib,xcb and drm options for windowing system and glx and egl for creating gl context
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<|3b|> so i want user to inherit from a generic 'window' class, and it dispatches to whichever of the windowing system and context creation classes was chosen when the window was created
<|3b|> (and i don't want to change the application code, since it doesn't really care if it is running in X, or wayland, or directly on a drm console)
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* |3b| supposes slot-value-using-class is probably wrong anyway, since i probably want methods on some of them to interact with wrapped APIs rather than just access the class slot
<|3b|> i think i'll just use a macro to redirect methods, explicit is less likely to break confusingly than something automatic
<Bike> so the user is going to make their own class that's a subclass of one of these specific things, but they don't care about which specific thing it is?
<|3b|> (and macro is easier than doing same thing with custom metaclass)
<|3b|> no, user makes a subclass of 'window'
<|3b|> and in usual case, when they instantiate it, it gets default backends chosen from whatever backends are loaded
<Bike> well, right, but i mean effectively you want instances of this class to be dispatched based on the more specific class
<|3b|> optionally, it can pick specific backends, or whoever runs the app can change the defaults
<|3b|> it only cares about whether it is using gles vs gl, while that context might have been created by drm+egl, or xlib+glx, or xlib+egl or whatever
<|3b|> it might not be a horrible restriction to only allow 1 combination at once, in which case it could just change-class the superclasses, but still seems a bit ugly (particularly handling changing while windows are open and such)
<|3b|> so my current idea is effectively just generating a bunch of methods like (defmethod (setf width (n (w window)) (setf (width (platform-window w)) n)))
* |3b| misplaced some ) there
<|3b|> then platform-window's method could resize the window on xlib, or complain about invalid size on drm, or whatever
<|3b|> hmm, actually maybe i should separate things more, which could simplify it
* |3b| wonders if should be valid for a single 'application' to use multiple backends at once... i guess there is no reason to restrict it if separate applications in same image could do so
<|3b|> though it require more effort, so it should probably keep a local copy of whatever it was opened with as default for that app
<|3b|> abstraction is hard :/
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<drmeister> In a multithreaded environment - it makes sense to bind *debugger-hook* to a thread-local value - correct?
<aeth> afaik
<drmeister> I'm starting swank from a command line application in a separate thread and I'm seeing sldb start up when an error occurs in the main thread. After that the system becomes unstable.
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