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<aeth>
Josh_2: the problem is that Lisp is a good language for doing things from scratch, but if something's a lot of work, and there's a library or framework or engine or whatever that already does that work, then it might not be the fastest language for a given task
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<White_Flame>
but with quicklisp, there's a good availability of libraries now
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<ck_>
Good morning.
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<moldybits>
aeth: it's a lot more fun, though. :)
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<aeth>
moldybits: well, yes, for us
<aeth>
the appeal is there for programmers like us, but if someone identifies as a game designer first, that probably means they want to shortcut to the actual game part
<aeth>
not always, of course
<aeth>
White_Flame: well, library. trivial-gamekit is at the stage where you can recommend it to people. Afaik, everything else is WIP or ancient
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<ck_>
Good morning, beach
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<jackdaniel>
s/wip/wd/ (work done! ;)
<jackdaniel>
bleh, s/ancient/wd/
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<ck_>
I don't get it
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<jackdaniel>
if something fresh is wip, then something ancient is wd
<MichaelRaskin>
Or wa…
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<ck_>
or 'works for me'
<ck_>
sounds like you're seeing software as meat, the more well-hung the better
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<jackdaniel>
not really, but viewing it as something what decays over time is too depressing to take it for granted
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<jackdaniel>
(hint hint, ansi standard for common lisp did age well, javascript frameworks die in infancy)
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<ck_>
I think of it as an organism that needs to adapt to survive. bit-rot doesn't happen in a vaccum.
<ck_>
sure, no disagreement about the spec here. great stuff.
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<Godel[m]>
Ancient s/w are problematic if they don't have active maintainers, other than that, I don't see a problem with ancient Lisp s/w. Like, SERIES. But then what's the community for? Fork it.
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<MichaelRaskin>
Godel: well, you don't need active maintainers, just maintainers ready to issue a fix.
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<MichaelRaskin>
ck: bit rot happens because entire ecosystems are built out of software that doesn't actually have a task of processing information, just of interfacing with other software (which is in the same position)
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<ck_>
is that the official definition
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<MichaelRaskin>
No, but it could as well be…
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<ck_>
hmm
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<frgo>
Hi. Quick question: How do I enable the syslog appender in log4cl? Thanks!
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<frgo>
answer to myself: log4cl:add-appender. Easy. RTFS.
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<LdBeth>
Good evening
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<beach>
Hello LdBeth.
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<Lycurgus>
even then there was a sense of what is this old broke shit?
<LdBeth>
So DEK doesn’t solve this himself
<LdBeth>
Lycurgus: yes, as a markup TeX is terrible
<LdBeth>
So does LaTeX
<Lycurgus>
he's well into his 80s now
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<Lycurgus>
well only 81
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<LdBeth>
I learned TeX better after having hands on a actual press
<ck_>
okay, I agree about the typesetting. Do you like this CL quick reference you fold lengthwise to make a booklet? I can't think of the name right now, but it is visually very impressive
<ck_>
maybe I just reacted aversely to the currying syntax. I never put in the effort to grok that
<LdBeth>
CLQR? Of course I love that
<ck_>
that's the one, yes
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<ck_>
well, if you really wanted nicely typeset cl code in an editor, you could maybe use auctex and hack something together? Or were you thinking about printed documentation
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<Godel[m]>
LdBeth: For integration with org-mode, you might want to check out literate-lisp from quicklisp. I use it with listings, but could also have syntax highlighting with pygments.
<Lycurgus>
whaddabout Erudite?
<LdBeth>
Lycurgus: what’s than?
<Lycurgus>
a lisp literate p thing, like LP/Lisp
<LdBeth>
Lycurgus: oh I got some impression
<LdBeth>
But I prefer CLWEB
<Lycurgus>
except the latter seems to be verschwinden
<Lycurgus>
ah ok
<LdBeth>
Actually I applied some hack to CLWEB to produce that lisp code example shown above
<LdBeth>
ck_: I’m planning write a preprocessor for the work
<Godel[m]>
I thought that was the usual output from listing environment in LaTeX.
<ck_>
Lycurgus: the adjective is 'verschwunden' :)
<Lycurgus>
:)
<Godel[m]>
LdBeth: Did you try minted environment?
<Godel[m]>
with syntax highlighting etc.
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<LdBeth>
Göd.el: There’re some limitations particularly working with Common Lisp, for example, reader macros
<Godel[m]>
I see.
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<sveit>
is there a way to delay expansion of a macro until the compiler does type inference/constant propagation? the application is that I have a dictionary of functions that I would like to be inlined if it is possible to deduce from the code. non-portable solutions are fine (SBCL is my usual compiler of choice)
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<aeth>
I guess the next logical step is someone writing a way to do type-inferring type declarations.
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<Lycurgus>
if ur type obsessed there's a lang for that
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<aeth>
Lycurgus: Well, there's an implementation for that, and it's SBCL... Passes pretty much everything you'd want except type-checking of slots with :type in defclass (but it does check in defstruct typed slots, and it can type-check defclass slots, just not at default optimization levels)
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<aeth>
(And, importantly, you can work around defclass issues with the metaobject protocol.)
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<Josh_2>
So I have these functions https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1429#1429 and I'm trying to run the (up) and (down) function on a background thread however I always get an error like this and I don't know how to fix it https://i.imgur.com/bJ75YuA.png the functions have to be called from a background thread
<Josh_2>
I'm using xlib
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<Josh_2>
The functions work just fine at the top level repl
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<Lycurgus>
aeth, I meant haskell
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<Lycurgus>
i was impressed when I installed sbcl on mac with ports that there's a version adapted for Mach native threads
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<Josh_2>
If I receieve something like (position (x . 123) (y . 345)) and I want to call a function that would take those arguments, would it be better to create a hash table, lookup 'position in that hash table and then extract the args from the sexp above and pass that, or can I just (funcall #'position ..) with the args and have the function defined at top level?
<Josh_2>
(positio...) is json sent from another device
<Josh_2>
actually no It's a bad idea, just thought about it xD It's plain text over network so you could manipulate the session by sending crafted packets to call specific functions xD
<Josh_2>
I will stick to the hash table
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<sveit>
aeth: thanks! that seems pretty useful, but I would also like something that will, for example, allow me to wait to macro expand until constant propagation
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<sveit>
or ask the compiler to propagate constants as much as possible before doing an expansion. or try to expand a constant as much as possible? the idea is that a key into a dictionary is being computed and that function is being called (actually I have something a bit more complicated set up, but this is the basic idea). i have declared tons of things inline, so SBCL shows me that basically all the time, it is able to completely compute
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<sveit>
this key; it seems a waste to not use this information to not perform further inlining.
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<sveit>
oh i can probably just use "constant-form-value" in the library you recommended. i will try that, thanks!
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<flip214>
when using CFFI, can I tell a DEFCNUM which storage size to use? it's packed in some structure, so it's important that it uses the correct size.
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<aeth>
sveit: well for handling actual defconstant constants you can do (and (symbolp foo) (constantp foo)) in your macro and if true then do (symbol-value foo) in your macros, which might require those defconstants to be wrapped in eval-when if in the same file, if in CCL
<aeth>
iirc
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<sveit>
aeth: oh they're not defconstant constants, just constants that can be computed if the local environment is taken into account
<sveit>
but on sbcl (eq (let ((a 1)) (constantp (+ 1 a))) t)
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<sveit>
also, is there a reason that (it seems) even if a function "f" is declared inline, SBCL never inlines "(apply #'f arg1 '(arg2))" but does inline "(funcall #'f arg1 arg2)"?
<aeth>
I would ask that in #sbcl
<pjb>
sveit: (eq (let ((a 1)) (constantp (+ 1 a))) t) is not a conforming form.
<aeth>
sveit: sometimes if you ask in #sbcl why they don't do an optimization they consider doing that optimization if it's easy enough, or they explain why it's very hard
<pjb>
sveit: (assert (let ((a 1)) (constantp (+ 1 a)))) is a conforming form.
<pjb>
sveit: if constantp is the function from CL, then you're calling it with as argument 2. 2 is a constant expression: it always evaluates to 2.
<pjb>
But (eq (let ((a 1)) (constantp (+ 1 a))) t) can return nil or true, depending…
<sveit>
i see. does "conforming" mean "allowed by the standard?"
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<sveit>
so i guess i still have the same question, to be concrete is there a way to pass or extract the value "4" to the macro foo in "(defun bar () (let ((a 3)) (foo (1+ a))))"?
<sveit>
clearly sbcl does the constant propagation and if foo is some inlinable function will definitely get rid of "a" in place of 4 (looking at disassembly), but i would like access to this value
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<random-nick>
sveit: why would you want to access that from a macro?
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<sveit>
random-nick: in my case I have a dictionary of values (functions; actually even more data) that can almost always be inlined since the keys into the dictionary can usually be computed at runtime, and if the value is already in the dictionary at the time of the compilation I would like the inlining to happen
<random-nick>
why not use a function and a compiler macro?
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<random-nick>
hm. but that still doesn't solve the problem
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<sveit>
yeah, that doesn't quite work. i have an idea i think is close, which is a macro that expands into (if (constantp x) (... some stuff here that can assume x is known/was propagated forward) (... x only known at runtime)), but I'm still stuck
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Does anyone happen to use Montezuma (the common lisp implementation of Lucene)?
<minion>
fiddlerwoaroof, memo from emaczen: When you get a chance, write a minion memo for me giving the link to your objc/lisp repo
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've been using it in a long-running service, but I haven't been able to figure out how to prevent it from growing its memory usage indefinitely
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Over a (longish) period of time, it seems to allocate a bunch of memory outside of sbcl's gc and never give it up
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I like it because I use elasticsearch a lot at work, so I'm used to lucene-style databases
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