phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2> Morning beach :)
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<gabbiel> Hey guys, I'm trying to create this 2 macros called "synonymize-macro" and "synonymize-function"
<gabbiel> they basically create synonyms for existing macros and functions
<gabbiel> e.g. (synonymize-function plus +)
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<gabbiel> I'm trying to really make it a synonym, i.e. have the new synonyms inherit documentation and arglists
<gabbiel> documentation is easy, but arglist is the troublemaker here
<no-defun-allowed> er, if you copy the function won't it have the same lambda list?
<gabbiel> I thought of using trivial-args, and then processing the return value of the arglist function in the trivial-args package
<no-defun-allowed> eg (setf (fdefinition 'bar) (fdefinition 'foo)) worked here, copied function and documentation
<gabbiel> hmm, let me try that
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<gabbiel> wow thanks, I didn't know about that
<pillton> I am surprised there isn't support for this in the reader.
<gabbiel> looks like it works great for functions, but not for macros, it gives errors
<pillton> There is function-lambda-expression as well.
<no-defun-allowed> macro-function instead of fdefinition
<gabbiel> nice, that saved me so much trouble
<gabbiel> on a similar note, I also have a macro called funmacro, which turns a function into a macro
<gabbiel> I should rephrase: it defines a macro that does what function does
<gabbiel> I don't think I can use fdefinition/macro-function here
<gabbiel> is the only option here to use trivial-args:arglist ?
<shka_> why you would want such macro?
<gabbiel> so I don't have to quote args
<gabbiel> sounds dumb, but I have this function I use for my hobby which uses only lists and its annoying to have to quote a bunch of lists
<shka_> hm, ok
<shka_> i don't understand but that's fine
<gabbiel> I also wrote a macro "nq" which doesn't define anything, but calls a function with args quoted, maybe I should use that, but idk, funmacro is useful because it also allows for defining with anonymous functions
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<gabbiel> no-defun-allowed: It seems special operators aren't covered
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<gabbiel> no-defun-allowed: is there a function akin to fdefinition/macro-function for special operators?
<no-defun-allowed> can't do that
<pillton> You can install a macro instead.
<gabbiel> I can do that, but then the synonym properties would go away
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<gabbiel> I noticed that fdefinition returns a "closure" object
<pillton> I am skeptical about your synonym anyhow. You are only considering the function namespace.
<gabbiel> I can use defparameter for variables
<pillton> Classes, types?
<gabbiel> for now, only functions and macros, if I ever needed classes, I'd do it then
<gabbiel> as for types, isn't there a deftype
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<gabbiel> classes seem complicated, I haven't even read the art of the metaobject protocol
<gabbiel> or the other book teaching CLOS, forgot the name
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<gabbiel> quick question, I learned I have to do (eval-when (compile load execute) ...) when I need to use macros within the same file. if I macro that away, will it eval-when, or wont it do anything as its a macro?
<gabbiel> thought it wouldn't work, but it did, weird
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<gabbiel> gnite everyone
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<splittist> gmorn
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<afidegnum> should i run that in sline ?
<no-defun-allowed> in slime, run (load "~/Downloads/quicklisp.lisp") or wherever
<afidegnum> ok
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<pjb> afidegnum: you cannot install quicklisp in emacs. emacs implements emacs lisp. quicklisp is written in Common Lisp.
<afidegnum> ok
<pjb> afidegnum: there was a (partial) Common Lisp implemented in emacs lisp, but it bit rot since introduction of lexical bindings in emacs lisp. You might want to work on it, it's emacs-cl. Then a port of quicklisp to emacs-cl would be envisageable.
<pjb> afidegnum: have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
<pjb> afidegnum: slime is a kind if IDE letting you develop CL programs using emacs as an editor and user interface for the CL debugger, the CL repl, the CL inspector, etc. So indeed, you could install quicklisp using the CL you access thru slime. But it would be simplier to start at the terminal with quicklisp, since quicklisp also has tools to install slime.
<afidegnum> so how is the quicklisp terminal like ?
<afidegnum> i m currently using Portacle,
<afidegnum> how do i install libraries in portacle?
<pjb> Ah,sorry, I don't know anything about portacle. Shouldn't everything be already installed and available with it?
<afidegnum> how do i find out if quicklis is installed on portacle?
<jdz> afidegnum: Type (find-package "QUICKLISP") in the REPL.
<afidegnum> it returned NIL
<no-defun-allowed> yeah, you'd have quicklisp in portacle
<pjb> Is quicklisp already installed in your home director? Is there a file ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp ?
<pjb> (load #P"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") is all that is required to load quicklisp if it's already installed. You could add this form to your rc file.
<jdz> Portacle homepage says it comes with Quicklisp.
<afidegnum> there was a typo. but it works,
<afidegnum> i was able to locate qucilisp
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<oni-on-ion> agh that derailed quickly
<oni-on-ion> he had slime going in emacs, can install quicklisp there.
<oni-on-ion> "you cant install it in emacs" is quite a thing to say
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<flip214> is there a way to tell zpng to initialize the image to white?
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<Nilby> Just set the pixels, e.g: (loop for i from 0 below (length (zpng:image-data image)) do (setf (aref (zpng:image-data image) i) #xff))
<flip214> Nilby: yes, of course that's possible.
<flip214> but array allocation is likely to write some "sane" value into all pixels anyway, so why write twice?
<Nilby> I suppose you could make the array yourself and give it an :initial-element of #xff.
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<Nilby> It looks like you could supply it with (make-instance 'zpng:png ... :image-data)
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<flip214> Nilby: correct.
<flip214> still, it looks like a very common use-case to me, so IMO the library should support that.
<flip214> Xach: ^^
<Nilby> I like the simplicity of the library. Also transparent black is my favorite "sane" value.
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<Nilby> But it's true it's not obvious the best way to pre-set the image data.
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<pjb> oni-on-ion: I'm sorry, but I always assume people mean what they say. Not my fault if they're not able to say what they mean.
<pjb> (If they were able to say what they mean, they wouldn't have to say it in the first place anyways).
<oni-on-ion> true.. that catches me a lot in real life. i take everything face-value irl
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<paule32> hello
<paule32> i have to say sorry, for the missunderstandings
<dim> pjb: being able to say what you mean is a very rare gift, or only happens to people who never ever try to say anything complex, or open themselves to talking about their emotions and perceptions, so maybe try to be more a human than an english compiler?
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<dim> anyway that's off-context, my backlog doesn't show me the relevant conversation, but I still though it's important to say that
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<paule32> dim: i you point to me, .. i have a disscusion, and with my poor slengsh, and i was banned in #clschool
<oni-on-ion> dim, i needed to hear that as well, ty
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<jackdaniel> paule32: I saw quite a few discussions with you and what I've noticed is that you ignore given advices, so while I'm not on #clschool I can guess where the ban may come from
<paule32> hello jackdaniel
<jackdaniel> hello
<paule32> the problem is, you (all) give me advices, and i tried to transform in do it your (me) self, so i am a little bit lame, and waste some time in playing with lisp, in this time, an other lisper give me hints, and as i was not answer, the lispers are wait and wait on reply of me, but i have some times no part back informations (most of things i am in a newbie
<jackdaniel> the thing is that you ask for advice, then you reject it and person who spend time trying to educate you, well, wasted their time
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<jackdaniel> (and you reject it based on nothing, so it doesn't make really sense) - I'm saying it in good faith that you will try to reconsider this attitude (and I have nothing more to say on this topic)
<paule32> how i said, my second problem is in understand and reply correct sentences...
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<moldybits> (defun f (&rest keys) (apply #'g keys)) ; this works, but how could i specify the key parameters properly for f, and then only apply them to g if they were set? (defun f (&key a b c) ...)
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<moldybits> i can combine key and rest, iirc, but that'd mess up the signature :s
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<no-defun-allowed> well, use (defun f (&rest r &key a b c) (apply #'g r))
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<moldybits> yeah, but is there a nice way of doing it without the &rest r part
<Xach> moldybits: no-defun-allowed is supercorrect
<Xach> it is the best option
<no-defun-allowed> that is the nice way
<moldybits> it feels a bit leaky :s now you know i'm wrapping something, probably :p
<no-defun-allowed> it was surprising to me when i learnt about it, but it is correct CL surprisingly
<moldybits> i really like that it's possible :)
<no-defun-allowed> ngl, it is a bit leaky just copying keyword arguments like that to me
<pjb> (defun f (&rest keys &key a b c) (declare (ignore a b c)) (apply #'g keys))
<Nilby> The real trouble comes when you have default values. :(
<pjb> Nilby: depends if the default values are the same in f than in g.
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<pjb> If they're not, then indeed, you need to pass the keywords.
<pjb> (defun g (&key (a 0) (b 0) (c 0)) (list a b c)) (defun f (&key (a 1) (b 1) (c 1)) (g :a a :b b :c c) #|different defaults|#) (list (g) (f)) #| --> ((0 0 0) (1 1 1)) |#
<Nilby> Which unfortunately happens more than I would like, even with standard functions.
<Nilby> The sequence functions in particular.
<pjb> (defun f (&rest keys &key a b c) (declare (ignore a b c)) (apply #'g keys)) (list (g) (f)) #| --> ((0 0 0) (0 0 0)) |#
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<moldybits> oh, well. this works. thanks no-defun-allowed and pjb!
<White_Flame> the nuclear option would be to use a macro instead, which forces the syntax onto g right at the call site
<Nilby> Thank goodness everything can be fixed with macros!
<jackdaniel> even the most beautiful program may be "fixed" with macros ,)
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<Nilby> jackdaniel: Maybe that's why I seem to need to start with something ugly to make any improvement.
<Nilby> jackdaniel: But I actually don't like when I have to do that.
<jackdaniel> Nilby: that was a joke. the point was that macros often obfuscate the code making it hard to read
<Nilby> Perfect lambda list re-passing of complicated defaulting, etc, aguments seems like a little bit of glitch in CL.
<Nilby> jackdaniel: I agree.
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<no-defun-allowed> The beautiful programs are ugly too.
<jackdaniel> sometimes something is and sometimes something isn't, what means that something may be something different than something ,-)
<jackdaniel> that sometimes something may be*
<Nilby> Now, I'm wondering how (call-next-method) works.
<jackdaniel> from the programmer or implementation perspective?
<moldybits> i want to be able to access slots as groups, for example the slots `x' and `y' as `position'. i wrote a macro that works but i wonder if it could be done better. for one, i'm not sure how to think about :before methods ...
<Nilby> From the implementation.
<no-defun-allowed> The method dispatcher picks the next applicable method in the same generic function, calls it, and returns its value(s).
<samlamamma> moldybits: What's a `group'?
<jackdaniel> it could have been implemented by means of local functions, but afair there is some code walking involved to eliminate unnecessary closures
<Nilby> Now I see: walk-method-lambda
<jackdaniel> you may look at PCL implementation
<jackdaniel> (portable common lisp - base for sbcl's and ecl's implementation of CLOS module)
<White_Flame> portable common loops?
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<Nilby> I think I wish for a funcall-like-me or something, that works semi-magically like call-next-method.
<jackdaniel> White_Flame: yes, you are right, sorry
<shka_> Nilby: could you please summarize what are you trying to do?
<flip214> Nilby: If I understand you correctly, you want to pass the same argument to another function?
<mfiano> Keep in mind you may experience different behavior across implementations by changing the arguments for the next applicable method. The safety level determines whether it will error or not, and different implementations have different default safety levels. CCL is more strict than SBCL in this regard for example.
<moldybits> samlamamma: something like (defclass point () ((x :accessor x :initarg :x) (y :accessor y :initarg :y))) (make-slots-group point (x y) position vector elt) (position (make-instance 'point :x 1 :y 2)) => #(1 2)
<flip214> How about &rest, or a compiler-macro, or (for debugging only) using TRACE?
<Nilby> Yes, but getting every nuance of argument defaulting, supplied-p-parameters, etc, exactly correct.
<Nilby> shka_: I'm not really trying to do it, just thinking about it. I usually use an "ugly" macro workaround if I have to.
<shka_> Nilby: ok, so i would start by defining separate mechanism to handle lambda lists
<shka_> probabbly as a objects
<flip214> Nilby: (APPLY #'fn rest-arguments) should do the trick, as fn has to parse keyword arguments out anyway
<shka_> if function wants to invoke other function, it may introspect lambda list of the function it is about to invoke
<shka_> if it is compatible, call directly
<shka_> otherwise, do extra magic
<shka_> but i don't recommend doing this
<shka_> overcomplicated
<Nilby> shka_: That's interesting, I suppose one could make a "defun" that does that, similar to the code walking of defmethod to get call-next-method right.
<samlamamma> moldybits: So (defmethod position ((point point)) (with-slots (x y) point (apply #'vector x y))) ?
<Nilby> flip214: That works most of the time, but if you have arguments that weren't suppiled and got defaulted, then the are passed to the next function with the default values, instead of being not supplied.
<shka_> Nilby: i would not bother with advance macro-magic, instead i would build object oriented protocol around funcallable objects
<shka_> and some thin syntax sugar with macros on top
<shka_> and voila, you can stuff all your extra informations into funcallable objects
<shka_> next, i would add something like "invoke" that would actually attempt to introspect whatever it is about to funcall
<shka_> but again, i think that it is very complicated and expensive solution to very hypothetical problem
<Nilby> shka_: That sounds like a cool idea, and is indeed like the MOP. But so far I'm not bothered enought by it to do so.
<shka_> yeah, exactly
<shka_> anyway, my point is that you can literally embedd almost anything in the CL, and it may not need to be super extra macro heavy
<Nilby> Maybe someday we'll have a CL which every function is a method and is just as fast.
<shka_> just start with protocol
<Nilby> Right, I like the protocol idea.
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<jackdaniel> Nilby: there is work on that. Fast Generic Dispatch by Robert Strandth to improve runtime dispatch, inlined generic functions to resolve dispatch at compilation time, implementations may have optimizations for simple methods (which doesn't involve too much hacks)
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<mfiano> I would also like to mention specialization-store for compile-time generic dispatch, even allowing specialization on optional/keyword arguments
<moldybits> samlamamma: yeah, pretty much.
<Nilby> Yes, similar to Dylan's "sealing" of types and functions.
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<Nilby> sbcl has sb-ext:freeze-type, but maybe it could have freeze-class ?
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<Nilby> mfiano: I hope someday I'll have my code working well enough that specialization-store would help. It looks cool.
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<shka_> heisig actually works on something like java final
<shka_> and it works
<shka_> somehow, don't ask me how, i am not wizard enough to understand this
<shka_> :|
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<flip214> Nilby: if some arguments weren't supplied, your &rest won't have them, and so they'll not passed on either
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<Nilby> flip214: Thank you. But I've decided to just do (defmacro nil (&rest x) `(lambda ,@x)) and write the rest of my code using only quasi-quote.
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<Xach> heisig: what is the license for https://github.com/marcoheisig/sealable-metaobjects/ ?
<heisig> Xach: MIT
<heisig> Let me add that to the ASD file...
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<heisig> ... done.
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<heisig> Xach: Do you have a script that checks whether a project is well formed (license, description etc.)?
<heisig> If so, could you add something like ql:rate-system?
<heisig> Or would you accept such a feature if I implement it?
<Xach> heisig: rate-system?
<Xach> what is that for?
<heisig> Something that library authors can run before submitting their project to quicklisp-projects.
<dlowe> ql:validate-system maybe
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<Xach> heisig: i think of the word "rate" as giving a subjective rating of quality
<heisig> Yes, "rate" is a bad term for this concept.
<shka_> validate would be certainly a better word
<Xach> i am in favor of the general idea
<Xach> i need :license, :author, and :description. some form of README file is not checked but would be useful to highlight.
<shka_> sounds like something relativly easy to do
<heisig> One could also include some other community guidelines, e.g., how the :author argument should be formatted to make Quickref happy.
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<heisig> Xach: Should I hack a prototype and make a PR on quicklisp-client? Or should such a style guide be moved to a separate library?
<Xach> heisig: I think it is suitable for quicklisp-client. I think it best to keep it extremely simple: check an asdf system for those three fields
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<skidd0> is there an (in-system) or (use-system)?
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<beach> What would they do?
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<Lycurgus> like in-package but bigger
<skidd0> ^ yes
<skidd0> interns all the stuff from a whole system
<Lycurgus> in practice people do stuff with *features*
<beach> skidd0: That's called (asdf:load-system ....).
<pjb> (in-package "FOO")
<skidd0> beach: but then do i still need to prefix symbols from that system?
<pjb> A system may define 0, 1 or more packages.
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<pjb> A system may mutate 0, 1 or more packages already existing.
<pjb> skidd0: symbols can only be qualified by packages.
<beach> skidd0: You should.
<pjb> Systems are irrelevant to lisp objects.
<pjb> They only serve to organize source files.
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<skidd0> i see
<pjb> You NEED to qualify symbols with a package where they are accessible, when they're not accessible in the current package.
<pjb> You can make them accessible in a package, by using a package that export them, or by importing them directly.
<Lycurgus> a CL thing that dealt with implementations from more than an install perspective would be nice
<pjb> What do you mean?
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<beach> skidd0: I find the code much clearer when every symbol except the ones from the current package and from the COMMON-LISP package has an explicit package marker.
<skidd0> i've been doing that in my source code
<dlowe> which is why local package nicknames are nice
<skidd0> but to play around with stuff in dev, i'm looking for a way to be lazy
<dlowe> because then you can provide package markers that are short and understandable
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<skidd0> and not need to 'my-package::some-in-dev-func
<skidd0> but rather, (some-in-dev-dunc)
<Bike> you could use-package those packages (from cl-user), and then unuse them later.
<Bike> though thath won't help with unexported symbols.
<beach> It would seem that the probability of a conflict would be huge.
<Bike> eh, depends on the packages
<skidd0> ah, that's my problem then. i was wondering why use-package wasn't finding the symbols
<skidd0> not exported
<Lycurgus> "few people have the imagination for reality" - a goethe quote just seen as an opening quote on a movie
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<schweers> I wish package local nicknames were in the standard
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<jackdaniel> schweers: they are adopted in four implementations already (sbcl, ccl, ecl and abcl)
<schweers> In a way that one can use them portably between the four?
<schweers> Also I didn’t know they were that widespread. I only new about sbcl and ccl.
<jdz> Don't they all implement the same CDR?
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<jdz> Now I'm wondering if there even is such a CDR...
<schweers> I cannot find any
<jdz> My guess is that SBCL's interface is good and small enough and is the one implemented in other implementations.
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<jackdaniel> there is no cdr
<jackdaniel> other three implementations adopted a specification from sbcl
<jackdaniel> so they should be compatible (+/- bugs / later additions in sbcl)
<schweers> Apparently clasp also supports this.
<jackdaniel> in ecl it is in develop branch (I've added it *after* 16.1.3 release)
<schweers> so this seems to be about as portable and stable as MOP, right?
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<pjb> skidd0: rc files are made for something…
<jackdaniel> I wouldn't compare it to mop, it should be portable and stable under #+package-local-nicknames feature
<jackdaniel> mop specifies additional protocols while pln modify existing constructs (like adding a new options to defpackage)
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<skidd0> are ;;s inside ""s ignored?
<jdz> No, it's just regexp-based code highlighters.
<schweers> jackdaniel: well, both are non-standard yet pretty well supported.
<skidd0> so then on line 444 there, the format string is supposed to turn into a comment and ruin the rest of the code block?
<pjb> Well, you cannot trust lisp indenting and fontifying when done by non-lispers…
<pjb> First, it should query the readtable to detect what character the comment reading reader macro function bound to…
<pjb> skidd0: but I'm afraid you're looking at the finger instead of the moon.
<pjb> https://github.com/informatimago/rc/blob/master/common.lisp#L302 selects all the packages I want to have direct access of the exported symbols to, in CL-USER.
<skidd0> well so that import-export is exporting all the external symbols of the packages
<skidd0> i see
<pjb> skidd0: yes, because I actually define a com.inforamtimago.pjb package, export them from here, and use this package in cl-user.
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<ebzzry> Xach: ping
<ebzzry> Xach: you may already be aware that the certificate chain of quicklisp.org is incomplete. just a reminder.
<ebzzry> the certificate will also expire in 6 days
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<flip214> Xach: how about giving zpng an easy way to initialize a new image to white/black/transparent, directly via the MAKE-INSTANCE call?
<flip214> "easy" as in "it's not required to calculate dimensions of an array, allocate and/or set it"
<flip214> "easy" as in (make-instance 'zpng:png :canvas-is :black)
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<Josh_2> I have this sammich maker which I made for exercise 2.3 from PAIP https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1393#1393 I was wondering how I would make selection of specific types of fillings based on some rulesfor example if I have cheese then I don't want meat etc
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<sjl_> bug report: horseradish is misspelld
<sjl_> (it is my favorite condiment)
<Josh_2> Sorry :P
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<gaze___> hey I think I'm misunderstanding something very basic about quoting. When something is quoted, does the reader go "inside" the quote and convert anything inside the quote into a reference to something, or is a quoted list just... a list of words and nothing else?
<beach> gaze___: when the reader sees the ' character, it recursively calls itself to read what follows.
<beach> gaze___: It then returns the list (quote <the-result-of-the-recursive-read>)
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<gaze___> if I have a (defun x (...) ...) ... (quote x), is there now a reference to x hanging around, or is it just the name "x" hanging around?
<gaze___> egh I'm not phrasing this right
<beach> Your question has nothing to do with the reader.
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<gaze___> oh, sorry
<beach> Oh, maybe it does.
<beach> Yes, the two occurrences of x refer to one and the same symbol.
<gaze___> okay then let's say I have (defun x (...) ...) ... (quote x y)
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<gaze___> where y isn't... anything
<beach> Well, that happens to be illegal code.
<beach> gaze___: Read is going to create the symbol y in the current package, or return the existing symbols if it does exist.
<Bike> (quote (x y)) will evaluate to a list of symbols. whether those symbols name functions is immaterial.
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<gaze___> okay I think we're getting closer to what I want to know... what exactly is a symbol then? does a symbol have to point to something or is a symbol just a name?
<beach> A symbol is an object that contains slots.
<Bike> it's just a name.
<beach> Among others, one slot contains the string that names the symbol.
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<beach> gaze___: What do you mean by "point to something"?
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<gaze___> I'm trying to think about how the GC marks things
<fivo> beach: Hey, I have a question concerning this piece of code.
<Bike> i think you may be overthinking.
<Bike> why are you worried about the GC?
<beach> gaze___: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", which means that it is as if every object is represented by a reference, or a pointer.
<fivo> beach: it's probably a bit of a fuzzy question
<Josh_2> fivo: my opinion is that is pretty code
<beach> fivo: Go ahead.
<fivo> I am using the notation from the commands in that file
<gaze___> well, the GC is gonna mark stuff that stuff points to, right?
<beach> gaze___: Indeed.
<fivo> Wouldn't it be somehow possible annotate R with the source locations before the macroexpand
<gaze___> if a symbol is mentioned in a quote, then is that symbol considered "pointed to"?
<fivo> And then reconstruct all T' after that
<beach> gaze___: Yes, it is referred to by the list that the reader returns, as I told you.
<fivo> s/all/all of/
<gaze___> AHHH ok!
<beach> fivo: Let me check the notation...
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<beach> fivo: No, because the macroexpander takes a raw Common Lisp list, without any annotations.
<fivo> I am not sure I make sense, but essentially annotate every subexpression of R with source location and then somehow do the macroexpansion
<fivo> ok so one would need to write some special macroexpander
<fivo> ?
<beach> fivo: The macroexpander would not know what to do with those annotations.
<beach> fivo: Yes, and that has been suggested in fact.
<fivo> beach: I am just asking if it is not possible at all
<Bike> gaze___: whether it's quoted doesn't matter. (list 'x) '(x) (list (find-symbol "X" "WHATEVER-PACKAGE")) are all forms that return lists that refer to the symbol (so the GC would follow through)
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<fivo> beach: I admit probably difficult
<beach> fivo: It is possible to write such a macroexpander.
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<beach> fivo: scymtym has suggested using an interpreter for the body of the macroexpander.
<beach> fivo: Maybe he can help you with the details if you are interested.
<fivo> beach: ok should I ping him tomorrow?
<beach> I think he is still around.
<gaze___> gotcha. Okay. I gotta run. Thanks for the help!
<scymtym> leaving now
<beach> Oh. OK.
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<Bike> an interpreter...?
<beach> As I recall, yes.
<Bike> i'm kind of curious how this goes
<fivo> me too
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<beach> The main difficulty is that anyone can define a macro, so the body of the macro can't be turned into normal code, because then it would operate on raw Common Lisp expressions.
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<beach> So you would have to interpret or compile that code in a way that, when it operates on CONSes, like with CAR, CDR, CONS, it would instead have to emit the corresponding operation for the CST.
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<beach> I am not sure I understand how it would be possible in general.
<beach> I mean, a macro expander can call any Common Lisp code to transform the argument.
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<beach> I think it would be best that scymtym explained it himself.
<Josh_2> Is anyone able to offer some advise on me problem?
<Josh_2> I can just move on It's no biggy, I was just curious
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<jgkamat> if any of you guys use the next browser, please update to the latest version, older versions had an RCE exploit
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<grewal_> Josh_2: It gets complicated if you want to stick to maintaining a grammar.
<grewal_> A simple way would be to have, e.g., (meat-filling (cheese) (meat)). And then change your rules to choose one of them.
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<grewal_> Doing something like that quickly blows up the number of rules you have, so you might want to create a shortcut like (filling (2 *) (spread veg sauces herbs meat-filling)) where (2 *) means choose any 2,3,..., or all of the following items
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<_death> there's no need to constrain the specification to a "grammar".. you can just describe what you want in the most direct way and have an "engine" interpret it to provide the required outputs.. if performance becomes an issue you can then tweak the specification, add a compilation stage, etc.
<_death> it reminds me of this post: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/-uoDKZeKBr4/qGgFy-M3mvoJ
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<gabbiel> gmorning everyone
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<Josh_2> grewal_: Thanks for the advice :)
<Josh_2> I think I will just leave it and move on in the book
<eabarbosa> gabot: gafternoon
<gabot> eabarbosa: Huh?
<eabarbosa> gabot: noooo
<gabot> Is somebody talking?
<Josh_2> I don't see it
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<rpg> Anyone out there using burgled batteries?
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<rpg> It's a great idea, but I don't see any information about how to configure the Python process, and the docs are quite limited.
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<oni-on-ion> i dont understand what "Ultralisp" is
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<Xach> oni-on-ion: it is a way to get lisp software that is updated quite frequently
<Xach> that is my understanding anyway
* Xach is away again sorry
<no-defun-allowed> it's a quicklisp distribution that is updated more than once a month
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<oni-on-ion> ahh, so fastmode quicklis
<oni-on-ion> p
<oni-on-ion> going to try roswell also here, never looked at that.
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<aeth> "trivial-left-pad — Ports the functionality of the very popular left-pad from npm. — MIT"
<aeth> Well, that's a bit unexpected.
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<Xach> Someone asked for it.
<no-defun-allowed> (npm:quickload :trivial-left-pad)
<aeth> I mean, really, it goes full circle when someone ports that to Parenscript because it's more functional than the actual left-pad
<no-defun-allowed> Just wait until everyone depends on it.
<aeth> no-defun-allowed: unfortunately, I can't just remove it from Quicklisp without warning once half of Quicklisp indirectly depends on it and instantly break everyone's code
<no-defun-allowed> rip
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<aeth> It really does seem like a dead joke 3 years later. And in a few years, no one will get the joke.
<Xach> i find it pretty dumb but i don't judge that kind of thing when it comes to adding
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<aeth> It's a 3 years old April Fools project that got almost no attention on April Fools 3 years ago.
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<aeth> In 2017, I did a functional Brainfuck for April Fools, which I think is more useful than trivial-left-pad. I didn't do any jokes for 2018 or 2019 because I think the Internet has kind of killed April Fools Day in general. I didn't even go on the web at all last April 1st.
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<rpg> Does anyone know if there's a library that would do pattern-matching or unification specifically for hash-tables or property lists? I.e., structures with named components?
<rpg> This does not seem like rocket science, but it seems like something someone might well have done before.
<Bike> optima can do that, i think?
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<rpg> Bike: I imagine it could, yes. I'd like unification better than pattern matching, though, if I can get it.
<Bike> oh, yeah, i don't think optima does that
<rpg> cl-unification doesn't really do unification, because of its templates, so it's not a symmetrical operation like unification.
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<rpg> I'm really just looking for the ability to unify something that's like a hash-table, or a python dictionary...
<rpg> that's a lot less demanding than trying to do unification for all of CL like CL-Unification.
<White_Flame> yeah, it's not rocket science, but it is a bit more involved than matching positional lists/tuples, so it's a bit more rare
<rpg> I think the trickiest bit is that one needs a path language for the results. E.g., if you unify a dictionary with no entry for :x with a dictionary that has an entry for :x which itself has an entry for :y, that is 'foo, then the resulting binding set must have a way of representing the path :x -> :y -> 'foo
<White_Flame> I don't think the binding results of unification would be any different