p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<ldb> good morning.
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<ldb> bitmapper: it's simple, the author just doesn't know that CCL won't eval defstruct at compile time.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<bhartrihari> Good morning.
<ArthurStrong> beach: good morning
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<seok> Hey guys, does this look like a db that is bottlenecking? https://ibb.co/kSvfXM7
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* phoe stares
<phoe> I see no parentheses in that screenshot, I don't think I can help
<seok> Hah
<seok> well, I am calling from lisp
<seok> spreading the task using bt didn't improve performance by any, so I'm wondering if it is the db
<seok> which I doubt, not doing that many reads
<no-defun-allowed> Maybe, that's a lot of TPS.
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<seok> Is it?
<seok> What is tps?
<phoe> transactions per second
<seok> ok
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<seok> no-defun-allowed thanks! I don't have much experience with big tps to for comparison
<no-defun-allowed> Can you look at how fast it writes to disk, and how that compares to how fast you think your disk can be written to?
<seok> How would I do that?
<seok> Yeah, it could be the hd now you mention it
<seok> Since I'm writing the output to file too
<no-defun-allowed> On my system, I can have the activity monitor program show me how much each process writes and reads.
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<seok> https://ibb.co/MkWsXcv nope don't see much disc usage
<no-defun-allowed> I would watch that while having my program do its doings, and compare that to how fast the disk can be written to (which is around 100MB/s for a mechanical drive and more than 1000MB/s for a good solid state drive).
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<no-defun-allowed> How long does each burst of transactions last?
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<seok> Not sure by exact, but the program is spewing out 3.5mb file per second
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<seok> so probably 1-2 sec
<no-defun-allowed> That graph could be smoothing it all out, I'm not sure.
<seok> maybe if I have 2 processes it will smooth out
<seok> ok, the graph does go up with 3
<seok> hm, guess it is a bit faster
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<seok> Nevermind, it is a bit better with bt
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<kapil_> i am totally new to lisp.
<kapil_> is lisp is good language to learn to learn functional programming?
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<beach> kapil_: There are better languages is you want to do purely functional programming.
<beach> kapil_: Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language.
<kapil_> oh
<beach> It does support functional programming is one of the paradigms.
<beach> But it also has the best object-oriented subsystem around.
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<kapil_> i only want to learn functional programming
<beach> I see.
<beach> You are probably better off with something like Haskell then, or maybe Clojure.
<kapil_> is Practical Common Lisp book is still valid today?
<beach> Yes, the language hasn't changed.
<kapil_> oh thanks
<beach> The tools have, so when you get ready, ask here for the latest tools.
<beach> One of the strengths of Common Lisp is that it has an international standard that is stable.
<kapil_> i download and installed https://portacle.github.io/
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<beach> Yes, that's good.
<kapil_> is it all i need to learn and use common lisp?
<beach> And the literature, yes.
<kapil_> thanks
<beach> Sure.
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<kapil_> in how many days i can learn common lisp?
<beach> As with anything, count 10 years to be a master. But you can learn the basics in a week or two if you work hard on it.
<kapil_> thank you so much
<beach> A warning: If C++ is what you are used to, you will have some "aha" moments, and when you understand what is going on, you won't want to go back.
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<ldb> ^ agree from my observation
<kapil_> oh thanks a lot. you motivated me to learn now
<beach> So if, say, your livelihood depends on developing C++ code, you will no longer be happy at work. :)
<kapil_> i have currently a c++ back end web server. i want to use common lisp . if it is easy
<kapil_> beach, why its so cool then c++?
<beach> Oh, I don't even know where to begin. Let's see if I can find the URL...
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<beach> random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
<phoe> beach: fun fact: there is a proposal to introduce metaclasses to C++
<beach> Why am I not surprised.
<phoe> I know right
<beach> But they won't get there ultimately anyway, until they abandon manual memory management and that crazy syntax.
<pjb> phoe: you mean beyound OpenC++? https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
<pjb> s/un/n/
<pjb> Anyways, there's no point in tracking languages that asymptotically tend toward lisp.
* ldb ^ +1
<kapil_> beach, thanks
<beach> kapil_: Feel free to ask questions if there is something in that document that you do not understand.
<beach> It was initially written by me, but then Abhishek Reddy improved it vastly.
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<Guest2239> Isn't (= (min 0d0 (/ 0d0 0d0)) (min (/ 0d0 0d0) 0d0)) supposed to return t?
<beach> You can't divide by 0.
<phoe> that's a division by zero for you
<Guest2239> it's weird that nan is handled asymmetrically
<Guest2239> use (sb-int:set-floating-point-modes :traps nil) in SBCL, for example
<beach> There are no NaNs in the standard, so the behavior is implementation specific.
<phoe> (float-features:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid) (list (min 0d0 (/ 0d0 0d0)) (min (/ 0d0 0d0) 0d0))) ;=> (#<DOUBLE-FLOAT quiet NaN> 0.0d0)
<phoe> hmmmm
<phoe> I know what is happening
<phoe> you cannot compare NaNs using <
<phoe> (float-features:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid) (list (> 0d0 (/ 0d0 0d0)) (= 0d0 (/ 0d0 0d0)) (< 0d0 (/ 0d0 0d0)))) ;=> (NIL NIL NIL)
<Guest2239> actually, I was wrong because the original = should return nil because nan != nan
<phoe> that is what confuses MIN
<phoe> it returns NIL
<Guest2239> but nevertheless, (min nan 0d0) should return nan irrespective of the arrgument order
<phoe> why?
<phoe> NaN < 0d0 is false, so obviously NaN is smaller
<phoe> at the same time, NaN > 0d0 is false, so obviously NaN is larger
<Guest2239> because that makes way more sense mathematically, and if one needs less consistence then should use a low level primitive
<phoe> NaN makes *no* sense mathematically
<Shinmera> How does "not a number" make any mathematical sense
<no-defun-allowed> I don't remember NaN from any of my maths classes.
<phoe> if you have NaNs compared to numbers, you've already screwed up, and no amount of lacquer on top of that will fix that
<ldb> try import floating point theory from sat solver
<phoe> orders like #'< are only defined for real numbers, and NaN is, well, not a number. garbage in, garbage out.
<Guest2239> this reasoning makes * / + - handling nan-s the way they do completely useless
<Guest2239> I'm not talking about < <= etc but min, max specifically
<Guest2239> I don't care how it's implemented
<phoe> let's see where IEEE 754 mentions minimum and maximum operations
<Guest2239> whether it's < or anything else inside
<Shinmera> well you must, because it's implementation specific
<Guest2239> I'm not talking about the standard
<phoe> "IEEE however, treats NaN as a missing value for the purpose of the minNum and maxNum functions. They will suppress a single NaN operand and return the number instead."
<phoe> okay, found it
<Guest2239> so it either supposed to return the other number independently of the argument order or nan
<phoe> a naïve implementation of the algorithm there is (defun float< (x y) (cond ((> x y) x) ((< x y) x) ((= x y) x) ((float-features:float-nan-p x) y) ((float-features:float-nan-p y) x) (t x)))
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<phoe> but then again, it's up to the implementations to say whether they support ieee754-2008 float comparison
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<phoe> so if you're e.g. using SBCL, you should ask on #sbcl mayhaps
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<jmercouris> Looking for reccomendations for a simple matrix library or method
<jmercouris> I could use 2D array, but maybe there is something better?
<jmercouris> I've looked at a few online, I'm more interested in opinions
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<Shinmera> My opinion is it depends on what you need. If you just need matrix multiplication for small sizes you can write that triple loop yourself in like five lines. If you need large sizes and high performance you'll have to go for blas bindings. If it's in the middle, take your pick.
<jmercouris> A good point, I will think more about my required application
<jmercouris> there is no single truth after all
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<bean> hi
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<phoe> heyy
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<jackdaniel> s/single/simple/
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<Josh_2> afternoon
<rpg> Anyone know anything about the SBCL images on Dockerhub? There are a lot of them, and it seems hard to figure out which one to use.
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<beach> Hello Josh_2.
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<phoe> these ones were linked to me, https://github.com/daewok/docker-sbcl/
<phoe> and they seem sorta maintained if the last commit there is from 12 days ago and merges something from Stas
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<rpg> phoe: Thanks! I'll look at those.
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<rogersm> folks, maybe you're able to help. I'm trying to locate 'easy to plug' Garbage Collectors.
<phoe> easy to plug in where?
<rogersm> I currently have identified Boehm and Arlequin/Ravenbrook MPS
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<rogersm> to a C like interface
<rogersm> any other you may be aware?
<phoe> I am aware only of these two you listed
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<Bike> it's difficult to do garbage collection as a library since it needs to know object layouts and probably should do some things inline. So I also only know those two.
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<rogersm> Yes, it's pretty implementation specific
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<rogersm> but I was expecting to find more
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<t-m3n> hello
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<t-m3n> can any1 help me with my lab in clisp
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<Shinmera> it's customary to expect people to do their homework by themselves.
<t-m3n> i know but maybe some1 can help, it's firts year stuff
<Shinmera> ask your TAs
<gendl> t-m3n: I'm curious though, what school are you in where they're teaching clisp?
<t-m3n> 2) Define a function that returns the element from position (i, j) in the array defined in point 1)
<t-m3n> (note: will start from element with displacement 5 in the initial array)
<t-m3n> 3) Define a function that returns a new array of size 2 x 2 starting from the array defined in point 1)
<t-m3n> Define an array of integers of size 3 x 3, which will be initialized with increasing numbers from 1 to 9
<gendl> And is it the actual clisp implementation, or by clisp do you mean "common lisp"
<t-m3n> common lisp
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<t-m3n> first year at the engineering faculty
<gendl> t-m3n: that's not very hard but people here aren't keen on doing homework for folks. I'm happy to see that they're teaching CL somewhere though. May I ask your university?
<gendl> and what CL textbooks or documentation do you have access to?
<t-m3n> Technische Hochschule Mittelhessen
<t-m3n> in germany
<t-m3n> it's complicated for me bcs i'm not fluent in german
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<gendl> well most of the CL docs you'll find will be in English anyway.
<t-m3n> i did get some doc in german on our sharepoint but i need to download from internet in eng
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<gendl> all: isn't there another channel in here for lisp-noobs or something? At least someone could give him hits what functions he needs and so on..
<t-m3n> i'm using GNU Clisp2.49 on windows
<gendl> I think the easiest way to do the first one is to make a list-o-lists with the incrementing numbers, then call (make-array '(3 3) :initial-contents <that-list-you-made>)
<Aurora_v_kosmose> t-m3n: You might be interested in this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
<gendl> You could play around by manually making the list first, like
<gendl> (setq my-list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 0)))
<gendl> then do (make-array :initial-contents my-list)
<Shinmera> >>> #clschool
<t-m3n> thanks a lot gendl and shifty
<t-m3n> thanks a lot gendl and Shinmera sorry
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