p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
<pjb> aeth: but I find easier to write interpreters, by writing a byte-code compiler and interpreting the byte code…
<pjb> interpreting the source is crazy.
<aeth> yes
<aeth> Most interpreters are afaik either a register machine or a stack machine with bytecode as the thing that's interpreted.
<pjb> It was an optimization on memory starved computers, and even, usually keywords were "byte-coded" anyways.
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<_death> I see "interpreter" in a very wide sense.. it is a program that takes an input :)
<aeth> pjb: Even if you did source interpreting you could probably still do ahead-of-time macros by seeing macros as defining new primitives, I guess.
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<theseb> aeth: yes many macros are just sugar to generate lisp code automagically....the more interesting thing to me is that macros can make it appear you are giving lisp new abilities
<aeth> infix macros are an example of that
<aeth> (infix 1 + 1)
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<aeth> Of course, that's boring, so I made a C++-style hello world in CL to demonstrate infix: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/lisp-hello-world
<aeth> I even went further and made a reader macro #I(...) that translates to (infix ...)
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<aeth> With reader macros you could do true, full infix, though, and not just the s-expression hack
<theseb> aeth: is this equivalent (defun infix (arg1 operator arg2) (operator arg1 arg2) ) ?
<theseb> aeth: i just did it w/o macros?
<theseb> aeth: then i can do (infix 3 * 7)
<_death> aeth: it reminds me of an old hack.. https://gist.github.com/death/3673068498cbb6663010a67b0507319f
<aeth> theseb: not quite, since my infix macro allows arbitrary length as long as they are the same operator (no attempt to teach it precedence) so you would necessarily have to cons up a list for that, either with &rest so you can do (infix 1 + 1 + 1) or with the syntax (infix '(1 + 1 + 1))
<aeth> whereas the macro itself would just turn it into (+ 1 1 1) with no need to funcall/apply/whatever +
<theseb> ok....thanks.
<theseb> must be brain now
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<aeth> and iirc it's also recursive so (infix 1 + 1 + (2 * 3)) is possible.
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<asarch> If (defparameter *values* '((food (pizza . 3) (beer . 5) (tacos . 8)))), the I can get the value of beers with: (cdr (assoc 'beer (cdr (car *values*))))
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<asarch> But, what if (defparameter *values* '(("food" ("pizza" . "3") ("beer" . "5") ("tacos" . "8")))), how could I get that value?
<asarch> (cdr (assoc "beer" (cdr (car *values*)))) => NIL
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<no-defun-allowed> :test #'string=
<asarch> (cdr (assoc "beer" (cdr (car *values*)) :test #'string=)) => "5"
<asarch> Thank you!
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<beach> aeth: There is a case where LET can not be turned into a function form with a lambda expression as its operator. For example (let ((&rest 234)) (+ rest 345)) is not the same as ((lambda (&rest) (+ rest 345)) 234)
<beach> aeth: And there are cases where it might be tough to inline the function, for example when there is an environment capture, like (let ((x 234)) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))
<beach> aeth: I recommend you read up on how Common Lisp is compiled and how the run-time environment is represented.
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<asarch> If I have: (let ((text "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur\nadipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor\nincididunt ut labore et\ndolore magnaaliqua.")) ...), how could I remove all the '\n' from the string?
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<phoe> either cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all
<asarch> Thank you!!
<asarch> Thank you very much! :-)
<markasoftware> does (remove) not work for \n?
<phoe> oh
<markasoftware> well i guess it depends on if they are literal "\n" or an actual newline
<phoe> asarch: "\n" only has length 1
<phoe> (length "\n") ;=> 1
<phoe> you will want to escape the backslashes if you want to have actual backslashes in your strings
<phoe> that is a source of bugs in Lisp strings
<phoe> so, "Lorem ipsum\\ndolor sit amet\\nconsectetur ..."
<phoe> markasoftware: remove doesn't work for multi-character sequences
<markasoftware> Is there any reason to distinguish between functions and lists as datatypes, apart from performance? I.e, you could have a lisp where a function is just whenever you put a list, which represents a function body, at the beginning of a list?
<phoe> markasoftware: what do you mean, functions and lists as datatypes
<asarch> The code actually is for remove the '\r' of the end of the line
<phoe> they're distinct types, and a function isn't really a datatype
<phoe> asarch: ooh, clrf conversion
<asarch> Where is that function?
<phoe> asarch: which function?
<asarch> clrf
<phoe> uhhh, did I mention there is such a function
<asarch> D'oh!
<asarch> Sorry
<asarch> The text inserted into the model has that end of line: '\r'
<phoe> yes, that's Windows injecting its poison
<phoe> also s/clrf/crlf/
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<asarch> I just want to remove them before insert them
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<no-defun-allowed> markasoftware: Closures would require functions to carry around information other than their lambda forms.
<asarch> Can I use cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all for that?
<phoe> well then, replace all occurrences of (string #\Return) with ""
<phoe> yes
<asarch> Ok
<asarch> Thank you very much once again :-)
<beach> markasoftware: What would you put in a list to represent a function?
<markasoftware> it's body, though no-defun-allowed makes a good point about closures
<beach> OK.
<markasoftware> and idk about lambda list either
<phoe> but then you just have a list of symbols, lists, and everything
<phoe> it's not code, you can't really execute it
<markasoftware> the interpreter can execute it
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<markasoftware> because at some point it's going to just be built-in functions
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<beach> markasoftware: In a language like Common Lisp with closures, a function needs to be represedetn by two items: code and a static environment.
<phoe> but there's either overhead associated with compilation or overhead associated with interpreting that form
<beach> markasoftware: Closure conversion turns nested functions into global functions represented as such a pair.
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<phoe> neither will be faster than calling a pre-compiled function
<markasoftware> yeah i agree, i understand the performance reasons for making functions their own format
<phoe> also, if you simply splice function bodies inside, you will have trouble figuring out what is code and what is data
<phoe> the distinction between (+ x y) and '(+ x y) is clear because of quoting
<beach> markasoftware: But as long as you have those two components, the code part can be anything. For example, in SICL bootstrapping the code part is basically an instruction graph (HIR) that is interpreted by a HIR interpreter.
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<aeth> beach: yes, that &rest is the same as _death's example of &key afaik
<beach> Oh, I missed that. Sorry.
<aeth> beach: your second example is a new point, though
<aeth> I think the implementation would have to special case that, or accept a slight performance loss there
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<aeth> beach: I think the first example can be resolved by having a %lambda that doesn't recognize &rest, &key, &optional, &aux, etc., since we're talking about implementations implementing CL and they can cheat like that, but I'm not sure that would be worth it
<beach> There is no special case. You "just" do an "escape analysis" to see whether there is a chance that the environment may be captured.
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<beach> aeth: If you make LET a special case, then you are either going to miss out on inlining other functions (subject to capture), or you are going to have duplicate code; one instance for LET and another on for other functions.
<beach> In the latter case, you have a maintenance problem.
<beach> In the former case, you have a performance problem.
<phoe> it is nice to learn that Common Lisp has five ARITHMETIC-ERROR subtypes to account for five IEEE floating point exception types
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<beach> aeth: One main trick in compiler design is to reduce special constructs to some general problem, provided of course that you then have a way of handling the general problem. An example is looping constructs. If you handle them specially, you are going to miss out on someone writing a loop using TAGBODY. So the trick here is to discover loops in the intermediate code, no matter the origin in source code, and then process those loops
<beach> with some general technique.
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<beach> In this case, discovering loops in intermediate code is one of many techniques in "control-flow analysis" which is part of compiler design.
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<asarch> It seems that CL-DBI is actually inserting the '\r' into the model
<beach> asarch: As people pointed out, C escapes like \r and \n don't mean the same thing in Common Lisp.
<asarch> I mean, the #\r character
<beach> asarch: Then that's just the character r, with no backslash.
<asarch> "READ error during COMPILE-FILE: radix missing in #R"
<beach> asarch: And if so, you do not want to remove it.
<phoe> asarch: wait, what
<phoe> what file are you trying to read
<asarch> (replace #r *text*)
<beach> asarch: Because you would remove all the r characters.
<phoe> asarch: #r is invalid syntax
<beach> asarch: Try to understand what you are being told.
<asarch> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,\r
<asarch> consectetur adipiscing elit,\r
<beach> asarch: That is not Common Lisp syntax, or if it is, there is no backslash nor a return in that string.
<asarch> Etc. All the \r at the end of lines
<beach> asarch: STOP IT.
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<beach> asarch: There is no such thing as \r in Common Lisp strings.
<asarch> Wow!
<phoe> beach: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,\\r"
<beach> asarch: I mean, there could be a backslash followed by the letter r.
<phoe> I understand that this is what asarch is getting
<saturn2> asarch: you want #\Return
<beach> asarch: But then that is two letters.
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<beach> asarch: So do you have #\Return characters in your string, or do you have backslashes, or just `r's?
<phoe> asarch: could you paste some of the REPL input/output that shows the strings being printed?
<phoe> use a pastebin for that
<asarch> The text data comes from a <textarea> HTML element that sends its data through a POST method to the controller, then the controller parses all the data passed and with datafly inserts that value into a PostgreSQL clúster
<beach> asarch: When you did your (LET ((text "...\r")) ..., you did not get any #\Return in your string.
<beach> asarch: So then your example with LET was bogus.
<beach> asarch: Because that was not how the string was constructed.
<phoe> beach: please let me try handling that one
<beach> If you like. I am getting quite impatient with asarch.
<asarch> Yeah, my mistake. I should use \r instead of \n
<beach> *sigh*
<asarch> That's a piece of data inserted into the PostgreSQL cluster
<beach> I give up. Good luck phoe.
<phoe> asarch: can you show it beign printed in a Lisp REPL?
<phoe> being*
<phoe> I suspect it'll be printed like "asach@ellis:~$ avidemux_2.7.4.appImage \\r..."
<no-defun-allowed> Usually I add a (let ((textarea-value (remove #.(char-code 13) textarea-value))) ...) around anything that uses textarea contents.
<asarch> Ok. From the REPL I can't since I still cannot configure the ORM (ql:quickload :datafly)
<beach> no-defun-allowed: But that won't work if the string contains pairs of backslashes and `r's as asarch suggests.
<no-defun-allowed> That should not be the case if "The text data comes from a <textarea> HTML element"
<beach> asarch: Still, asarch seems to believe it does.
<asarch> I did another attempt with (replace #\Return textarea-content) and it went fine
<no-defun-allowed> replace?
<beach> asarch: So what was all this talke about \r and \n?
<beach> asarch: There was no such thing in your string. There were just #\Return and #\Newline.
<asarch> This is a piece of new data inserted after (replace #\Return textarea-content): http://paste.scsys.co.uk/588830
<no-defun-allowed> replace‽
<beach> asarch: If you refuse to try to understand what is going on, you will never learn.
<asarch> This is the controller code that handles the POST method: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/588831
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<asarch> Ustedes disculpe el Español :-P
<asarch> *disculpen
<phoe> hey wait a second, there is no \r in there
<phoe> was it postgres that printed #\Return as \r?
<asarch> The data comes in a format of: ((nota ("nombre" . "") ("descripcion" . "") ("contenido" . "")) ("tipo-nota" . ""))
<asarch> So I need to get the second part of ("contenido" . "") every cell
<asarch> That's what the FLET code does
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<asarch> When I do (valor "nombre")
<asarch> Or (valor "contenido"), which in this case is the value in the <textarea> HTML element
<phoe> asarch: I don't care about what the Lisp code itself does, I care about why the printed code previously had \r in it and now it doesn't
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<phoe> what was the change?
<phoe> (replace #\Return content) is a type error since #\Return is not a sequence
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<asarch> This is the HTML code for the form: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/588832
<saturn2> i think he meant remove, not replace
<phoe> I don't care about the HTML code for the form, I care about why the printed code previously had \r in it and now it doesn't
<asarch> In the line #12 http://paste.scsys.co.uk/588831?ln=on&submit=Format+it%21, the content of the <textarea> HTML element had the #\Return character
<phoe> OK, I understand
<asarch> That's why I remove them with (remove #\Return (valor "contenido")) before insert that data into the model
<phoe> that #\Return character went all the way to the database
<phoe> and that #\Return character was then printed by Postgres as \r
<asarch> Yeah
<phoe> OK, that solves the issue
<phoe> we originally *had* #\Return characters that were then rendered by postgres when it printed the datum in its own way.
<phoe> OK, problem solved then
<asarch> Yeah
<asarch> I spend all the evening to try to get the value of each ("contenido" . "") cell with the example of beer, pizzas and taco
<asarch> And at the end I could with the :test #'string= part of ASSOC
<asarch> (I didn't know every cell was made of a couple of strings)
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<saturn2> asarch: do you know how to use the debugger?
<asarch> No, actually I don't
<asarch> All the "debug" operations consist of (format t "I'm here!~%")
<phoe> it's worthwhile to learn it - a lot of error information can be learned that way
<asarch> Or even: (format t "The data passed: ~a~%" data)
<phoe> printf-style debugging kinda, works, but also is highly inefficient
<asarch> I was reading the conditions chapter of PCL but...
<asarch> Since the autor didn't give a real example
<phoe> without the debugger, you get no information about local variables in a function or even the condition being signaled
<phoe> asarch: haha
<phoe> sounds like a case for my upcoming book
<asarch> You are my man, phoe! Count on me with your new book
<phoe> asarch: you might want to read chapter 16 of Common Lisp Recipes
<asarch> I will
<phoe> it contains information about how to use the slime debugger
<asarch> I found a terrible bug of the REPL part of Slime
<asarch> If you move the cursor to a previous line and then press enter to use that line as the enter of the REPL, sometimes "forget" pieces of code specially when there are lots of )'s at the end of the expression
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<doomlist3> (format *query-io* "~a: " prompt) , (format *var* "~a " "data") here *var* shows it's no bound?
<phoe> not really terrible, but a bug
<phoe> doomlist3: what's *var*?
<phoe> why do you put it in the FORMAT call where you are supposed to put the stream that you want to print to?
<doomlist3> *query-io* replacement
<phoe> what's the value of *var*?
<doomlist3> value of *var* will be "data"
<phoe> what do you mean, "will be"?
<phoe> the function PROMPT-READ seems correct
<phoe> but I have no idea how it ties in with your (format *var* ...) call
<phoe> also, "data" is not a stream designator, so it is invalid to provide it as the first argument to FORMAT
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<phoe> that is correct, the variable PROMPT is unbound
<beach> doomlist3: What made you think PROMT has a value?
<doomlist3> if i replace prompt with a string "data" it won't accept *query-io* to be that string, but it accepts when the whole function is executed
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<phoe> doomlist3: that's because PROMPT is bound in your function but is unbound here
<phoe> (format *query-io* "~a: " "data") is going to work properly
<beach> Wow, what a morning.
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<doomlist3> *query-io* is a special lisp word, (format *q* "~a: " 3) variable unbound but not when *query-io* is used
<phoe> doomlist3: what is *q*?
<doomlist3> what is *query-io*?
<phoe> clhs *query-io*
<beach> doomlist3: There is no such thing as a "special Lisp word".
<phoe> *query-io* is a standard Lisp variable whose value is a stream
<phoe> what is *q*?
<asarch> In México the time is: sáb may 2 02:23:46 CDT 2020
<asarch> Too morning in the morning
<phoe> asarch: thanks, that's really informative.
<asarch> D'oh! Wrong channel
<asarch> Sorry
<phoe> (:
<asarch> (sb-ext:bed-time)
<asarch> Thank you guys!
<asarch> Thank you very much!
<asarch> Have a nice day :-)
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<phoe> sleep well
<doomlist3> (format *query-io* "~a: " 1) can i print the value of *query-io*
<phoe> sure you can
<phoe> (format t "~S" *query-io*)
<phoe> or even (print *query-io*)
<phoe> or just enter *query-io* in your REPL, it'll print it for you
<doomlist3> #<JUPYTER::STDIN-STREAM {100353B7B3}>
<phoe> yep, seems right
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* phoe finishes the first sketch of the condition system reference, whew
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<jeosol> phoe: how's the write up coming. Did you get enough volunteers for review?
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<phoe> jeosol: yes, I got a few reviewers. Another thing is that some more eyes on it will never hurt.
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<jeosol> So you need additional eyes?
<jeosol> Maybe I can help in some part. What's your timeline?
<phoe> Yes; now that the most obvious typos have been found, I will want some review of the general flow of the book and the content.
<phoe> No deadlines so far.
<jeosol> I see, higher level review work. cool.
<jeosol> ok, I can volunteer some time. Is there some background material, e.g., what's the assumed programming proficiency of the reader, etc.
* phoe jumps to query with jeosol.
<jeosol> I tried to cheat by copying an SBCL corefile from one linux machine to another to save on start time ... hmmm
<phoe> it will work
<phoe> as long as the executable is also the same
<jeosol> identical OS, everything but it complained
<jeosol> openSuSe, said something about core was built for runtime "localhost ..." but this is "second machine name" ...
<jeosol> phoe: I just saved the image with executable set to nil. That only works for executable?
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<phoe> jeosol: I have no idea
<jeosol> phoe: no worries. I'll just run it overnight. I'll sort that later.
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<doomlist3> (read-line *query-io*) outs the *query-io* in string form but print and format show #<JUPYTER::STDIN-STREAM {10036D2EE3}>
<doomlist3> I want to see what I type not some code
<phoe> doomlist3: you're printing the stream object itself
<phoe> you likely want to (print (read-line *query-io*)), not (print *query-io*)
<doomlist3> I want to see query-io without reading
<doomlist3> read-line manages to output it in string format
<beach> How do you expect to check the contents of a stream without reading from it?
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<beach> doomlist3: The very nature of a stream is that you can't tell what it provides until you read from it.
<beach> doomlist3: Put differently, the operations provided on an object of type stream are operations such as reading/writing a character or a byte, perhaps peeking one item, and a few more operations, but that's it.
<phoe> doomlist3: what do you mean, want to see *query-io* without reading
<phoe> *query-io* is a stream, you don't know what it is inside it until you read from it
<phoe> read-line reads stuff, that's why you see what was actually read
<doomlist3> read-line accepts MY input, but I don't want that.
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<marcoxa> Hello CL Hive Mind. I have a question for you.
<beach> doomlist3: READ-LINE did not output the string "song". FORMAT did.
<no-defun-allowed> What do you want it to read, if not your input?
<beach> doomlist3: And *query-io* is a variable whose value is a stream, not the string "song".
<doomlist3> but when i format I get not "song" but (format t "~S" *query-io*) --> #<JUPYTER::STDIN-STREAM {1003B112A3}>
<no-defun-allowed> If I give it to my friend Alex here, should it only accept her input?
<doomlist3> I want to decode {1003B112A3} to print "song"
<phoe> > Since *query-io* = "song"
<phoe> this is false
<beach> doomlist3: Yes, *query-io* is a stream, that is printed exactly that way.
<phoe> *query-io* is NOT "song".
<phoe> that's why the rest of your paste doesn't make sense.
<phoe> marcoxa: what's up?
<phoe> doomlist3: please move your questions to #clschool
<marcoxa> I want to READ a "form" which may contain "errors" (read: errors that variuos implementations signal in a very annoying "implementation dependent" way; sometimes by raising a READER-ERROR, sometimes signaling a I-DONT-CARE-ABOUT-YOU-THIS-IS-THE-ERROR-I-FU$&*NG-WANTH-TO-SIGNAL).
<beach> doomlist3: You need to understand the basics of Common Lisp before you attack something as complicated as the project you are working on.
<phoe> marcoxa: what's the example of such a form?
<marcoxa> Suppose you READ-FROM-STRING something like "(this is a (oooops::list))"
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<phoe> marcoxa: the only thing you can do is set *read-suppress*; if package OOOOPS doesn't exist, you cannot reference a symbol from that package
<phoe> or use #+ and #- that use *read-suppress* themselves
<marcoxa> Most readers will keep the pointer right after the "oooops". I want to rolla back at the beginning of the form.
<marcoxa> *READ-SUPPRESS*. Good suggestion. Let me try it.
<marcoxa> Be back soon.
<phoe> marcoxa: beginning of the form? oh wait a second
<phoe> that's non-trivial
<phoe> *read-suppress* will silently skip over invalid forms
<phoe> it won't "undo the reading"
<phoe> meaning, all the read characters will be gone from the stream
<phoe> (let ((*read-suppress* t)) (read-from-string "(this is a (oooops::list))")) ;=> NIL, 26
<marcoxa> Yep. Just checked. *READ-SUPPRESS* won't do it.
<phoe> marcoxa: let me ask another question: why do you want to do it?
<marcoxa> Because the work-around meeses things up otherwise. It works, but it is kludgy.
<phoe> work-around for *what* though?
<marcoxa> Here is the code. It is already kludgy because of the imp-dep error signaling behavior of vairous implementations.
<marcoxa> (defun read-form (forms-stream &optional (eof (gensym "FORMS-STREAM-EOF-")))
<marcoxa> (handler-case
<marcoxa> (let ((*package* *current-package*)
<marcoxa> )
<marcoxa> (read forms-stream nil eof nil))
<marcoxa> (simple-error (e)
<marcoxa> (debugmsg *hlp-dbg-reader* "HLP form reader: "
<marcoxa> "trying to read a form caused errors.
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<phoe> I'm getting faster
<beach> Heh.
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<beach> marcoxa: Use a pastebin for more than one line of code please.
<phoe> https://plaster.tymoon.eu or any other pastebin
<marcoxa> Oh. Sorry.
<marcoxa> I guess there is no incatation to force an implmentation do what I want, lest use a re-implmentation of READ.
<phoe> marcoxa: it's impossible in general, since the Lisp reader, in the general case, doesn't know when an expression is complete until it finishes reading that expression.
<phoe> and reading an expression can signal an error anywhere in its middle.
<phoe> So in case of a reader error you can't show the full expression to the user because you don't have the full expression.
<phoe> I'll ask again: why are you trying to do that though?
<phoe> I'm asking because you seem to be solving a problem that might have a solution at another level
<marcoxa> I know. My problem is somehow to ensure that the next form I am READing is marked as "inside" my original call to the READ-FORM function I posted.
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<marcoxa> What I am trying to do is read a form at a time skipping over package errors.
<beach> Maybe Eclector can be used for that.
<beach> It can be configured in various ways.
<marcoxa> I don't want dependencies. Pure CL solution please.
<phoe> beach has a concrete solution for that, a custom Lisp reader named Eclector, but I'll be boring; why skip over package errors?
<no-defun-allowed> Sure, just write your own reader then.
<marcoxa> So Eclector is a drop in READer?
<phoe> more or less, yes; you can use the read functions it provides in place of the standard ones.
<marcoxa> Because I want to read sources even if I do not have all the package in memory.
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<marcoxa> Let me look at Eclector.
<beach> Eclector is perfect for that kind of stuff.
<beach> We use it to read the code of an editor buffer.
<beach> phoe: Nowadays, it is more scymtym who has the solution. :)
<phoe> (:
<phoe> marcoxa: I'm curious, why are you trying to read it? Are you attempting some source manipulation or statistics or caching over that source code?
<MichaelRaskin> †µ
<phoe> beach: I just realized that Eclector could be a good tool for these people from Google who presented their work on ELS. The one about indexing Lisp source.
<phoe> MichaelRaskin: §ú
<beach> phoe: I guess that's true.
<MichaelRaskin> Well, they would still have the macro pain
<phoe> MichaelRaskin: yes, but one pain at a time
<beach> Eclector has turned out to be a great abstraction for plenty of stuff. I came up with the idea, but scymtym has taken it way beyond my initial vision.
<phoe> macroexpanding can come later.
<beach> Maybe they need first-class global environments too. :)
<MichaelRaskin> I dunno, generally any solution for macroexpanding I can imagine, will be fine with standard read (then process and eval)
<MichaelRaskin> Now global environments, that would probably be very helpful
<marcoxa> phoe I am doing source documentation.
<phoe> marcoxa: ...that's exactly what jgodbout is doing
<phoe> you seem to be solving the same problem as them
<marcoxa> That's what I have been doing for years.
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<marcoxa> Ok. Looks like Eclector may be able to do the job. I'd like a more direct solution, but that's ok.
<phoe> Eclector will then also preserve things for you that get lost during standard READ: indentation, comments, symbol casing, whitespace, et cetera.
<phoe> you'll want to have these if you work with Lisp source code
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<marcoxa> My needs for the specifica case are not all that sophisticated. It looks like Eclector restart machinery will do. I will put adding it in my queue.
<marcoxa> Thanks for the pointer.
<marcoxa> Ok. My English is messed up this morning. I meant: I will add to my queue the integration of Eclector in my code.
<beach> marcoxa: Good luck.
<beach> marcoxa: If you need help with Eclector, scymtym is the best one to ask.
<marcoxa> Will do.
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<scymtym> marcoxa: if you plan to heavily use Eclector's error recovery, you have to use the master branch of the github repository since i pushed the (hopefully) final changes to that functionality just three days ago
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<phoe> minion: memo for Fare: done, added a subsubchapter to the book that you mentioned. Please review it to verify that I haven't made some bugs along the way; thanks.
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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<boeg> Yesterday I believe it was phoe who told me to not use T -typespec in handle-case - its a code smell, be specific instead, IIRC. Good point, by now my question is; how do I go about making sure my handle-case handles all the signals a function could signal? I mean, I could look at the direct function I'm calling and see what it might signal, but other than that, maybe it calls something that calls something that might signal
<boeg> something
<boeg> that might bubble up?
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<_death> if you want to handle all conditions (for example, to have a thread terminate if an error bubbles to the top instead of breaking into the debugger) then indeed it's appropriate.. that is an exception to the rule
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<_death> if you want to perform some action, such as logging.. then T (all condition types) may be too general.. I use ERROR for that
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<boeg> I guess - my intuition would be, that one might specify the types that one is aware of, and then also include a catch all if the "end game" is, in my specific case, when the things I'm not specifically handling is signaled, the appropriate response would be to log it and throw a http 500 error
<scymtym> SERIOUS-CONDITION is another possibility. memory-related conditions are SERIOUS-CONDITIONs but not ERRORs in some implementations
<_death> note that T includes WARNINGs, for example..
<boeg> right, so error would be better suited I guess in my case as the "catch all" because I only want to catch errors I'm not handling and throw a 500
<_death> scymtym: right, so logging during memory exhaustion may not work well
<_death> if you reserve the memory prior to that, or free some memory, it makes sense
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<scymtym> _death: right, it certainly gets complicated. for example handling with HANDLER-CASE may have freed stack already. (handler-case (labels ((rec (x) (1+ (rec x) ))) (rec 1)) (serious-condition (c) (princ c))) has a chance of working
<Nilby> I've used catching CONDITION (or effectively T) in a web console, so it can be appropriate for something that is effectively a REPL. But as soon as you run it under another REPL, you probably don't want that.
<_death> boeg: just recently I had a bug like that, where I started threads for background processing and didn't have a catch-all, my server.. when things stopped working and I connected to swank I saw some 200 threads waiting in the debugger..
<_death> boeg: with Lisp you have to avoid expectations like "on error the thread will terminate"
<boeg> good points!
<boeg> _death: indeed - i'm trying to learn about this all condition system, it's very different
<phoe> boeg: the answer already happened there, handling SERIOUS-CONDITION should do the trick.
<phoe> You should explicitly allow non-serious-conditions to be unhandled, since these may be signaled as a part of standard program operation.
<_death> btw it's always a good idea to name your threads ;)
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<boeg> phoe: makes sense, i'm just trying to figure out what the library i'm using is treating as a, say, SERIOUS-CONDITION. Like failing while persisting something - I want that to return a 500 error, not throw the program into the debugger
<boeg> however the documentation of SERIOUS-CONDITION sounds like its what i need
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<boeg> yeah, they inherit from error which inherits from serious-condition, so i believe that is the answer
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<phoe> serious conditions = errors + other non-error serious conditions, such as storage-conditions
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<boeg> indeed
<phoe> basically, if a condition requires either handling or interactive intervention, it should be a serious condition
<phoe> so that's what you should be handling in your handle-all
<boeg> yes, seems so
<_death> they should've made all non-serious conditions flippant-conditions
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<Xach> yes.
<phoe> _death: (deftype silly-condition () '(and condition (not serious-condition)))
<boeg> 1
<pjb> 2
<phoe> most-positive-fixnum
<pjb> 1152921504606846976
<MichaelRaskin> Tried and true numerical system: one, two, many, even more
<_death> (defmacro with-seriousness (&body forms) `(handler-bind ((silly-condition (c &aux r) (when (setq r (find-restart 'frown-and-ignore c)) (invoke-restart r)))) ,@forms)) ;; apply gensym as necessary
<_death> (and add missing lambda)
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<phoe> yes
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<boeg> can I in slime go to the definition, or get shown the definition in some other way, of the symbol under the cursor? There's e.g. slime-inspect-definition, but it doesn't show me the actual code, and its also the function definition i'm currently inside, not the symbol under the cursor that it inspects
<phoe> boeg: M-.
<shka_> or slime-edit-definitions
<boeg> do you know the name of the function? I'm using evil-mode
<boeg> thanks
<shka_> there is also slime-edit-uses
<shka_> *slime-edit-definition
<shka_> singular form
<boeg> ah, its under "g d" in evil - awesome! "Go to Definition", easy!
<boeg> :P
<shka_> good
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<boeg> is using let* a code smell? I believe it says so in On Lisp, but I'm sometimes in situations where I think it makes sense - does that indicate my code is not written in the proper way that common lisp code should be written, or is Paul Graham just being a little to harsh on let* and it does indeed have some applications?
<beach> LET* is fine.
<phoe> it's not a code smell, PG is harsh
<boeg> alright, good to know, thanks
<beach> I often use it to name intermediate results, which makes the code easier to understand.
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<phoe> it makes perfect sense when you have code that would otherwise be written as (foo (bar (baz (quux (frob (fred x)) :test :yes)) t) (cons 1 2))
<boeg> yes, intermediate results is exactly where I find use for it too
<phoe> it makes sense to instead (let ((frobbed-fred (frob (fred x))) (bazzed (baz frobbed-fred :test :yes)) ...) ...)
<boeg> either you end what your example, phoe, or with nested let's
<phoe> this also allows debugging on high DEBUG settings because you have intermediate variables.
<boeg> or you can use let*
<Nilby> If let* is a code smell, then all the most impressive lisp software stinks.
<phoe> there are some people who instead try to bind as few variables as they can; I consider that a very good golfing sport that should not intersect with code that is meant to be read, understood, and fixed
<splittist> or even something like ~>
<boeg> phoe: yeah, thats what I've found too - intermediate results makes a lot of things easier
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<splittist> (actually, that's sort of the opposite of let*, so ignore me)
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* shka_ likes ~>
<shka_> pipe is love
<splittist> shka_: it certainly encourages one to return useful results (:
<phoe> ~> is an alternative to LET*
<phoe> mostly because it allows sane threading and splitting computation into meaningful steps, rather than having one heavily nested list
<phoe> it's like having let*, except the temporary variables are anonymous
<shka_> yes!
<boeg> well, i guess i have to look up ~> now ...
<_death> PG's style is more functional, and in that style LET* is a code smell.. another reason is that, as you say, it is often used to name intermediate results.. it may be that you could factor your code differently, say by defining small functions (that have conceptual value) instead of having the computation done in-line with LET*
<phoe> boeg: it's a so-called arrow macro
<phoe> (ql:system-apropos "arrow")
<boeg> does it have a name in the hyperspec?
<phoe> ha! it's non-standard
<boeg> oh
<boeg> alright
<phoe> in general, arrow macros are lovely, but I'll still prefer my temporary variables
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<splittist> boeg: serapeum has a ~>. Clojure seems to love them https://clojure.org/guides/threading_macros
<boeg> phoe, splittist: thanks for the info
<shka_> i do love them as well
<_death> the arrow macros, in addition to encouraging in-line computations like LET*, also remove the need to name the intermediate results, thus further discouraging thinking about small functions to factor the code
<phoe> ;; and thus make debugging harder
* boeg ughm, the buzz-kills
<boeg> lmao
<phoe> but that's a smaller issue if your code is functional enough, since pure functions can be much more easily tested
<shka_> indeed
<shka_> for instance, consider this function https://pastebin.com/rD0XhkPy
<shka_> i takes a sequence of a clinical episodes and extracts vector of distinct diagnosis in those episodes
<shka_> threading macro makes it a lot more compact and nice compared to let* everything
<boeg> oh, its nice that multiple-value-bind just gives nils if there are more vars than values!
<phoe> it's not m-v-b, it's the language itself
<phoe> missing values are just coerced to NIL by the language
<phoe> see (list (values) (values) (values))
<boeg> phoe: ah, good point!
<splittist> although serapeum:formals (sp?) is a version that errors, if that's what you'd prefer
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<boeg> shka_: I read it like unix pipes - is that really just how it functions in practice?
<shka_> yes, it is literally a pipe
<boeg> awesome!
<shka_> well, it is a pipe here, threading macro simply substitutes argument
<boeg> understood
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<phoe> (defmacro nest (&rest r) (reduce (lambda (o i) `(,@o ,i)) r :from-end t))
<boeg> 1
<boeg> ill save that article
<_death> the nest macro removes useful visual hints about structure
<shka_> cl-ds offers sort of structured pipes akin to C♯
<shka_> and it blends really nicely with ~>
<phoe> _death: yes, but I found that article to be a good introduction to threading macros in general
<_death> in my opinion, such macros are a crutch for people who can't keep up with Lispy style of design, which is sometimes taxing in thinking
* splittist resolves to stay off _death's lawn
<phoe> _death: do note that the lispy style of design is "invent and/or use whatever language features you consider the best for your current problem domain"
<phoe> and I can say that threading macros kind of fulfill this style
<_death> so instead of decomposing your problem, you keep your computations in-line with LET*, oh but names are hard, so you use an arrow.. since you handle multiple concerns in a function body, it becomes complex, and instead of decomposing it you turn to NEST so that it "looks better"
<MichaelRaskin> Decomposing things that just do not make sense on their own is also bad
<_death> that's why it can be taxing.. you need to decompose it in a way that has conceptual value
<MichaelRaskin> It's a myth
<MichaelRaskin> There is a lot of business logic that just makes sense together.
<MichaelRaskin> Not everything is fully general, and «sorry Mario, the logic you are looking for is happenning somewhere else» is also not always a pleasant experience
<_death> yes, abstraction has a cost.. what I'm saying is that these operators are often used as a crutch, and code using them can be much improved
<MichaelRaskin> Well, sometimes san be improved, very often this improvement will make things worse
* shka_ does not like NEST (other for like opening few files at once) i do like ~>
<MichaelRaskin> Abstractions leak
<_death> this also applies to LOOP by the way.. of course, many times I also use LOOP and LET* (but not arrows, or for heaven's sake, nest).. but I keep in mind that it's often a crutch
<MichaelRaskin> Well, computers are crutches because you just cannot calculate in your head fast enough
<_death> I guess we're now talking past each other with generalizations.. time to do something else then :)
<phoe> yanno breathing is also a crutch because without it we're dead in like two minutes
<MichaelRaskin> I just have tried reading ASDF code
<phoe> oh
<phoe> that's... a brutal change in topic
<MichaelRaskin> Well, it _is_ split into smallest possible abstractions
<MichaelRaskin> So whatever you try reading is… elsewhere
<MichaelRaskin> But it needs all these extension points
<MichaelRaskin> If your task is not general enough to need that many extension points, just let all the related logic stay together
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<phoe> TIL: (ql:system-apropos "")
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<boeg> phoe: what does it do
<boeg> ?
<phoe> boeg: lists all QL systems
<boeg> ah!
<boeg> i only know realize that those functions - apropos, describe- - i know from emacs are available in common lisp too
<boeg> TIL
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<beach> minion: What does TIL stand for?
<minion> Tabacum Indiscriminatory Leucocytopenia
<Xach> phoe: (ql-dist:provided-systems t) also
<boeg> beach: today i learned
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<adlai> ... about Tabacum Indiscriminatory Leucocytopenia! sounds like a right nasty diagnosis
<beach> boeg: Great!
* beach is off to fix dinner for his (admittedly small) family and then spend time with her.
<phoe> beach: "til" = "today i learned"
<beach> Got it.
<boeg> beach: today i learned = til
<boeg> did you get it ?
<boeg> lmao
<phoe> he will, when he comes back
<boeg> :P I think he did when he wrote "boeg: Great!" earlier to my message "beach: today i learned", phoe
<boeg> I'm just joking ;)
* adlai wonders what #lisp will teach, after the next sun rises
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<phoe> adlai: whatever is required
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<phoe> for instance, did you ever head the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?...
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<boeg> what ever is this place ...
<boeg> i'm not sure i get the purpose #clschool
<boeg> All my questions seem to be answered in here, even though they are quite beginner questions
<Shinmera> It annoys some people here when too many very obvious beginner questions are asked.
<adlai> isn't that the dude who tried to implement tagbody using finalizers?
<phoe> when #lisp is busy with non-beginner discussion, #clschool can be busy with beginner discussion
<Shinmera> Some people would like deep insightful discussion of lisp, not the same questions noobs ask over and over.
<phoe> also what Shinmera says
<boeg> hmm, alright, i guess i have been lucky until now then :)
<phoe> or just haven't been asked to move it to #clschool
<boeg> no one has yet asked me to, eh, re-place my questions :)
<boeg> ...thats what i meant
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<theseb> I think I get how macros are to create code that generates code. How does that allow the code to do stuff that isn't possible in the language like change the evaluation recipe?
<phoe> theseb: it isn't about the macro functions themselves, it is the fact that arguments are passed to macro functions without being evaluated
<phoe> in (foo (+ 2 2)), if foo is a function, it gets 4 as its argument; if foo is a macro, it gets the three-element-list (+ 2 2) as its argument
<theseb> phoe: oh yea..that changes things ;)
<phoe> that is what allows the macro to selectively evaluate its arguments in any order and under any conditions it'd like
<phoe> a macro is just a function; what's interesting is what happens before that function is called and what happens after that function returns
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<theseb> phoe: when people add , and ,@ in macros....do those evals happen in the code generation phase?
<theseb> phoe: or is that just specifying how to eval the expanded code later by the evaluator?
<phoe> theseb: they aren't evals
<theseb> phoe: i thought , and ,@ implied evals inside a quasiquote
<theseb> ,@ is eval and insert
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<theseb> no?
<phoe> they don't imply evals
<phoe> you got it the wrong way around
<theseb> then what does , and ,@ imply?
<phoe> everything that IS NOT treated with , and ,@ is quoted
<phoe> the rest, well, isn't quoted
<theseb> phoe: are you saying no evaluation takes place in the macroexpansion phase?
<phoe> `(list (+ 2 2) ,(+ 2 2)) === (LIST 'LIST '(+ 2 2) (+ 2 2))
<phoe> no, I'm saying that no evaluation takes place while reader-macroexpanding the quasiquote form
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<theseb> phoe: to use your example, so expansion will eval the right side and insert (list (+ 2 2) 4) in the code submitted to the evaluator?
<ChoHag> theseb: ` is the same as ' (it quotes (doesn't evaluate) everything following it) except that ` allows any , it encounters to interrupt the 'don't-evaluate' rule.
<ChoHag> ,@ is a special form of ,.
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<phoe> theseb: (defmacro foo () (LIST 'LIST '(+ 2 2) (+ 2 2)))
<phoe> this means that the result of calling the macro-function of FOO will be the list (list (+ 2 2) 4)
<phoe> and that is what the (foo) call will be fully replaced with
<phoe> and *then* the form is evaluated again
<phoe> the next attempt at evaluation happens only after the macro function returns.
<ChoHag> It might help to play around with what ` does without defmacro.
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<ChoHag> ie. what do '(foo (+ 1 2)) and `(foo ,(+ 1 2)) look like.
<ChoHag> And `(foo (+ 1 2))
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<theseb> ok
<theseb> thanks
<theseb> phoe: your foo macro really helps
<phoe> theseb: it's from the smallest meaningful macros that utilize backquote notation in some maybe-meaningful way
<phoe> note, however, that backquote notation and macros are like macaroni and cheese
<phoe> they're separate things, they just go real well together
<theseb> yea
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<seok> I've just found out AllegroCL has its own webserver and graph db
<seok> Anyone have experience with these?
<phoe> seok: some people have been playing with a portability layer for allegro webserver, which is kinda not what you're looking for I think
<seok> I'm not counting on the portability atm, but just having a consideration as a viable stack commercially
<seok> phoe: you are saying it runs on allegroCL but not reliable on other implementations right?
<phoe> seok: I'm saying it's not meant to run on other implementations, and that portability layer makes it possible to run applications that depend on allegro webserver on other implementations
<phoe> I know nothing about reliability though
<seok> I've done a fair amount of research on CL web development but I've only found this today
<seok> Is there a review of it somewhere? perhaps a blog post?
<phoe> oh wait! aserve is published on LGPL, it's runnable everywhere
<seok> Oh!
<phoe> ...if you have https://github.com/xach/zacl
<jackdaniel> aserve (the webserver) has been opensourced years ago: https://github.com/franzinc/aserve/
<theseb> phoe: all the lisp masters on this channel....are they working for cool startups or doing their own projects on their own? how about you?
<theseb> phoe: in intrigued by who uses this wonderful language
<phoe> theseb: the lispers around here are a very varied group
<phoe> I'm working on my own projects in meantime while also working on a Lisp book (which, kinda, is a project, too)
<seok> A commercially supported CL webserver. Why have I never heard about this?
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<seok> It's not on awesome-cl, guess that's why
<seok> Ah there is
<seok> guess I've just missed it
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<seok> wow, allegrograph is amazing
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<_death> seok: have you seen vivacegraph? it needs work but looks like it has potential
<seok> _death: no I have not!
<seok> I've only found out about works from franz today
<seok> Ah, Yes I think I came across this before
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<seok> Ah, the free one only gives 5 million triples
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<seok> Wonder how much the enterprise edition costs
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<theseb> Are these equivalent?.... 1. (defmacro foo () (list 'list '(+ 2 2) (+ 2 2))) ...... 2. (defmacro foo () `(,list (+2 2) ,(+ 2 2))) ?
<adlai> theseb, why are you afraid of calling an equality predicate? not to mention, check the comma placement, lest you incur the wrath of an unbound variable
<phoe> theseb: not equivalent
<phoe> in the second macro, ,list is unquoted
<phoe> but it seems to be an unbound variable
<theseb> 2. (defmacro foo () `(list (+2 2) ,(+ 2 2)))
<theseb> how about now?
<theseb> wait...1. will eval to get a list
<phoe> +2 is likely an unknown symbol since there's no space in there, but I'm nitpicking now
<phoe> but, to quote myself
<theseb> 2. (defmacro foo () `(list (+ 2 2) ,(+ 2 2)))
<phoe> 19:09 < phoe> `(list (+ 2 2) ,(+ 2 2)) === (LIST 'LIST '(+ 2 2) (+ 2 2))
<theseb> phoe: basically i liked your toy example...i'm just trying to make another nice toy example that demos , and ,@
<phoe> theseb: (let ((x '(1 2 3))) `(x ,x ,@x))
<phoe> play with that in the REPL
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<theseb> phoe: oh snap.....your quote above has equivalent versions...i liked the right side so much i missed the left side
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<theseb> phoe: is it always (often?) the case that you can rewrite macros in equivalent forms that replace ' with ` and ,?
<phoe> theseb: backquote notation is just a convenient way of writing list structures.
<phoe> a backquoted form expands into a flurry of nested LISTs, LIST*s, CONSs, and APPENDs.
<theseb> phoe: i'm implementing a lisp.....if i can just write all macros w/ and w/o backquote...maybe i can just omit ` , and ,@ !!!
<theseb> win!
<Bike> yes, you don't need those. they're just reader macros.
<Bike> but they're convenient.
<theseb> oh good
<theseb> Bike: so glad you said that ;)
<Bike> clhs `
<phoe> yes, you don't need to use quasiquote at all, but people who need to implement macros in your language are going to not enjoy that fact
<Bike> "As an example, the above definition implies that `((,a b) ,c ,@d) will be interpreted as if it were (append (list (append (list a) (list 'b) 'nil)) (list c) d 'nil)"
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<phoe> ...or any form equivalent to the above
<Bike> yeah "as if it were". the point is it can just a bunch of normal calls like you said.
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<theseb> Bike: very nice
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<Adminisadsfadsf> hello from 4chan lisp is a dead language all the good features are in javascript just use JS like a real person thanks bye
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<Aurora_iz_kosmos> Adminisadsfadsf: Javascript lacks a Condition system.
<Aurora_iz_kosmos> It also lacks macros, which is a more easily observable sin.
<Aurora_iz_kosmos> 0/10, try harder OP
<Adminisadsfadsf> 4chan.org/g/thread/75711473
<phoe> Adminisadsfadsf: true /g/tards know how to respect Lisp-tan, sorry. Also, that's a 404.
<Aurora_iz_kosmos> If Lain used it, it must be good. :p
<phoe> you're welcome to move the topic to #lispcafe if you realy want to.
<phoe> otherwise,
<Adminisadsfadsf> sorry 4channel.org/g/thread/75711473
<phoe> still, 404. please move to #lispcafe.
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<phoe> hey, I think I'm getting the hang of this
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<Aurora_iz_kosmos> so it seems.
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<jackdaniel> the argument about Lain using it convinced me
<jackdaniel> I'm going to use Lisp
<jackdaniel> so much fame for clisp :)
<phoe> I mean, the Lisp mascot that /g/ came up with is pretty damn cute
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<seok45> I felt a bit primitive writing this code https://pastebin.com/8Tdj7QQN
<seok45> I think better lispers here can write it much shorter
<seok45> Is it true?
<phoe> wait a second, what is (gethash year)
<phoe> GETHASH requires two arguments
<seok45> Oops
<phoe> this still doesn't fix the issue
<seok45> It doesnt?
<phoe> yes, plus the parentheses are unbalanced.
<seok45> Ah yes.. parantheses
<seok45> hang on.. I will write it again
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<Aurora_iz_kosmos> phoe: Huh, I wasn't aware of this. That's true.
<phoe> also, GETYEAT, GETMONTH, GETSYMBOL, GETASKBID are undefined functions, so I cannot really run this code.
<phoe> Aurora_iz_kosmos: of what exactly?
<Aurora_iz_kosmos> phoe: imgs above
<Bike> alexandria has an ensure-gethash that does what those unless-s do.
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<seok45> ok that function should be this https://pastebin.com/H3aMNL3e
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<phoe> OK. Four undefined functions remain.
<seok45> I am processing files I have scraped
<seok45> Which have filenames like this
<saturn2> it seems that h will always be empty so there is no need to test what's in it
<seok45> HISTDATA_COM_NT_AUDCAD_T_ASK200810.zip
<seok45> Here's the full code https://pastebin.com/EQtzq8bS
<seok45> Guess it works
<Bike> saturn2: it's added to in different loop iterations.
<saturn2> oh i see, nevermind
<seok45> Just wondering if there's better way to write it, it felt very un-lispy
<seok45> Bike: this would be an improvement
<Bike> (setf (gethash month (ensure-gethash year (ensure-gethash symbol (ensure-gethash askbid h (make-hash-table :test #'equal)) (make-hash-table :test #'equal)) (make-hash-table :test #'equal))) f)
<Bike> nested hash tables are kind of ugly regardless.
<seok45> Indeed
<seok45> Would you use different structure?
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<Bike> probably i'd use list keys to one hash table
<Bike> (setf (gethash (list month year symbol askbid) h) f)
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<seok45> Well, I need to manually download files that was missed by the crawler
<seok45> so this is a helper function
<seok45> hm
<seok45> ok that could be better
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<seok> Hm.. this nested hash is killing me
<seok> Where is the malformed *let?
<seok> lot*
<seok> let*
<phoe> line 9
<seok> It is pointing there
<seok> but I don't see how it is malformed
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<phoe> (maphash ... h) is not a proper variable binding
<seok> h is a hashtable tho
<seok> is (maphash #'function hash) not how I maphash?
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<seok> Right, I see it
<seok> missing parantheses
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<aeth> I think there are some things you could do that would make that function easier to read
<aeth> e.g. making the lambdas separate functions, or using a macro over maphash that's easier to read
<aeth> (like a do-hash-table)
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<theseb> are macros *IN* the einvironment? reason for question is I'm wondering if a macro and another thing BOTH are bound to name foo....which one "wins" when the symbol foo is evaluated?
<aeth> theseb: macros are in the function namespace
<phoe> theseb: are you writing a lisp-1 or a lisp-2?
<theseb> phoe: i don't have separate namespaces
<phoe> oh - if you're writing a lisp-1, then nothing else can be bound to name foo
<phoe> problem solved
<aeth> there are several namespaces: variables, functions, types/classes, conditions(?), labels (for goto basically), and I think 1-2 more.
<phoe> aeth: conditions are just classes/types. there's also catch tags and block names.
<aeth> If you're writing a Lisp in Common Lisp (iirc?) you can emulate this
<aeth> phoe: Yes, but I put it separately with a question mark because I'm not sure if that's another thing that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Conditions are weird.
<theseb> phoe: so macros are in the same environment as functions...so if create 2 things with the same name....the last one will just clobber the old one?
<aeth> theseb: Afaik macros are conceptually pretty similar to inline functions here. So they'll be replaced by a function when redefined, but the old code will still be using the "stale" definition.
<aeth> Since they don't look up the name at runtime
<theseb> aeith: ok thanks
<phoe> aeth: no need to have that question mark; condition types don't have a separate namespace, same with condition handlers.
<theseb> aeth: thanks
<aeth> phoe: okay, good
<seok> Well, my program works
<seok> thanks guys
<seok> you are legends
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<phoe> aeth: conditions are sorta weird, 'cept not to me anymore, I guess
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<aeth> phoe: well, you wrote the book on them
<phoe> that's why I hope I'm sorta competent when it comes to answering questions on the condition system
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<aeth> the variable/constant namespace (if global, then dynamic variable, else dynamic or lexical), the macro/special-operator/function namespace, the compiler macro namespace, the type/class/condition namespace, the block tag namespace, the go tag namespace.
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<aeth> It's organized a bit differently in the standard. You have to click on each of the sections and the relevant part is the "bindings of": http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm
<aeth> and it doesn't even distinguish conditions from classes here
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<aeth> This is just asking for a table because there's two dimensions. There's the global/dynamic/lexical dimension that the HyperSpec breaks things down into and then there's the various bindings namespaces that can exist in more than one place (e.g. variables can be global-dynamic, dynamic, or lexical)
<aeth> (Also note that this is 6 at a minimum. Anyone's free to add their own. It's just a hash table in a macro if you want it to be.)
<Bike> the other day i realized you could use symbol-macrolet with a specially crafted global definition to get lexical compiler macros or type expanders
<Bike> dunno why you'd want that, tho
<phoe> Bike: is there some sorta blogpost about that?
<phoe> I'll want to read about it
<Bike> it's not that complicated
<Bike> uh, let me try actually writing it out
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<phoe> okay
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<aeth> imo CL should really be called a Lisp-3 (even though it's more accurately a Lisp-6) because the type/class/condition namespace is as important/common as the variable/function one
<phoe> the only acceptable numerics here are lisp-0, lisp-1, and lisp-n
<Fare> lisp--1, lisp-i
<minion> Fare, memo from phoe: done, added a subsubchapter to the book that you mentioned. Please review it to verify that I haven't made some bugs along the way; thanks.
<wello_horld> is lisp really better than python
<phoe> lisp-¼
<wello_horld> i can't get over the ((()))
<aeth> phoe: I love lisp-0s because naming things is overrated.
<Fare> unlambda!
<Fare> or... Factor
<Fare> The Lisp I learned programming on had no parentheses.
<Fare> HP RPL.
<aeth> I'm sure someone has done the equivalent of SRFI 110 for CL by now
<aeth> by the author of SRFI 110!
<bitmapper> factor is really nice
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<phoe> Bike: I will parse it tomorrow; sleep time for me now
<Bike> good-bye.
<phoe> niiiiight
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<Aurora_iz_kosmos> Lisp-0?
<Bike> yeah fuck names.
<Aurora_iz_kosmos> heh
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<no-defun-allowed> wello_horld: Put it this way, which language has several compilers, extensive support for metaprogramming, and doesn't have a stupid BDFL?
<dlowe> forth!
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<no-defun-allowed> Sure.
<dlowe> also, wello left like half an hour ago
<no-defun-allowed> Ah, stupid matrix bridge broke again.
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<White_Flame> no-defun-allowed: prolog, too
<White_Flame> also, you all missed "we can't get over all the indentation" ;)
<White_Flame> (or commas)
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