p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<kinope> _death: It looks like a sentinel only in name, but its not like a sentinel that you'd use for a list. It's a symbol called 'empty, and it probably exists for the very readon
<kinope> reason you mention
<kinope> the queue doesnt dereference values so it needs a quick way to determine if the queue is effectively empty
<kinope> in the case that the queue is effectively empty the head and tail pointers are changed to point to it. But they are not really pointers either, they are just numbers that are used in an array/vector indexing operation
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<kinope> on the queue
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<kinope> Morning all! Question. Is it just a matter of style whether one should make a small abstraction like (not (null x)) => not-empty_p, as an inlined function or a macro?
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<edgar-rft> kinope: I usually decide such a question by looking at my code. If the code is littered with (not (null x)) or some other repetitive pattern I try to find a shorter abstraction for it, but only if it makes the code easier to understand for a human. Every abstraction makes it necessary to learn a new symbol, so it makes no sense to abstract each and everything that only appears rather seldom in my code.
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<kinope> edgar-rft: Great! thanks. Should one make the abstraction a macro or a inlined function depending on the complexity of the operation?
<no-defun-allowed> Macros shouldn't be where functions can be used, so an inlined function would suffice.
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<kinope> no-defun-allowed: Good to know, thanks.
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<White_Flame> a big problem with inline functions in SBCL in particular, is that if you end up with hundreds of them in a single function body (as in a macroexpansion), it can massively slow down compilation
<White_Flame> even if they're small one-liners
<White_Flame> but yeah, if it can be expressed in a function, express it in a function
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<ArthurSt1ong> beach: indeed
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<phoe> morniiiing
<beach> Hey phoe.
<phoe> hey hi
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<no-defun-allowed> Hello phoe
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<pve> Good morning! Is there a recommended/easy way of testing code on multiple implementations? I mean something I can give my code to and get back compilation and test results for each implementation.
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<phoe> cl-test-grid and/or cl-all
<pve> thanks.. hmm
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<pjb> pve: I use clall
<axion> GitHub actions is what we use for pngload: https://github.com/bufferswap/pngload/runs/694176572?check_suite_focus=true
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<pve> thanks, I'll investigate these
<axion> Xach: That reminds me, I think zpb-exif PR #4 is required for pngload to build in next Quicklisp dist release.
<pve> there wouldn't happen to be a script I could use to fetch and compile the most recent versions of each implementation? my distro is a bit out-of-date on this..
<axion> roswell
<phoe> pve: I think there are Travis scripts that you could adapt
<pve> ok, so no docker image?
<phoe> I'm not aware of one, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist
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<pve> docker hub's search isn't very good.. I could only find sbcl images
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<pve> perhaps I could try to make a docker image with a few implementations + cl-all or cl-test-grid
<pve> I think that would be ideal for my workflow
<pve> axion: I'll check out roswell too, thanks
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<Posterdati> hi
<Posterdati> beach: another problem is the 'volt*ampere unit which is reduced to 'watt, in this case we cannot reppresent electrical apparent power which is V*A...
<flip214> Posterdati: of course, just use a complex wattage ... #c(20 10) 'watt
<pjb> Posterdati: I don't see how it prevents it. The point being that units don't embody the whole physics!
<pjb> It's not because you write a unit-consistent expression that you have modelized an actual physical phenomenon!
<Posterdati> flip214: which is wrong
<flip214> pjb: https://xkcd.com/2312/# from yesterday
<flip214> or the day before
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<flip214> Posterdati: why?
<Posterdati> pjb: it is a matter of representation
<Posterdati> flip214: these are not watt, the real part are watt, the complex part is var
<flip214> Posterdati: sorry, I don't understand
<flip214> If you put a not-pure-ohmic thing on AC, you get a complex wattage (because V and I are phase-shifted)
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<Posterdati> watt refers only to power able to do work
<flip214> you calculate the "real" power for the generator, and use the magnitude to dimension the conductor
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<flip214> Posterdati: yeah, for virtual loads you use VA, but that's just to differentiate in writing
<flip214> the "physical sense" is the same
<flip214> at least, that's what I learned, 30 years ago or so
<pjb> VA = J/s = kg⋅m²/s³
<pjb> It would be a very bad idea, in a computer system, to encode any meaning into different unit names.
<pjb> If you have to encode some physical meaning, do it explicitely, not by the name or factorization of the unit!
<Posterdati> pjb: V*A is not J/s if you consider a sinusoidal circuit, infact you can have work only by the real part of the complec power not the magnitude!
<Posterdati> in steady state V*A is not W
<pjb> J =kg⋅m2/s² ; V = kg·m2/s³/A ; VA = kg·m2/s³ = J/s
<pjb> VA = W
<pjb> whatever your physical object, units are always units!
<pjb> Again, you cannot represent a physical system by a mere unit expression, or even by a mere mathematical expression.
<pjb> You need a physical description.
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<Posterdati> there is a physical description, but antik has no units to reppresent it :)
<pjb> Because units don't serve to represent anything!
<pjb> units are like types, they're only there to CHECK the consistency of a mathematical expression!
<Posterdati> mmmh no, they are there to give a physical MEAN to a NUMBER
<pjb> It's just per chance, that the relationship between physical grandeurs in a lot of (simple) physical phenomenon have a unique mathematical form, and therefore a unique unit consistency checking form.
<pjb> Posterdati: nope.
<pjb> 3 volt.
<pjb> THis doesn't mean anything.
<Posterdati> so you don't bother to have a 250 power car (with no unit) or 250 cv car?
<pjb> Is this the electromotrice force of a battery? Is it a tension at the ends of a resistor? Is it something else?
<Posterdati> pjb: sure, but it gets its meaning from the calculations :)
<pjb> Again, no.
<pjb> It's not the calculation that gives physical meaning. It's the description of the physical system!
<Posterdati> ofcourse, but the calculation give you an indication on the phenomena, you need it
<pjb> Even better: you can describe physical systems, and measure physical grandeur from an actual instance, and not being able to compute them because you may not know the mathematical relationship between those grandeurs.
<pjb> You need it if you want to do engineering work. But physical experiments can be done (and usually are done) without having any mathematical theory about it first.
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<Posterdati> yes, but this is not the case, I have a mathematical model which reppresent my physical system, with a nice degree of accuracy, but no units to represent the numbers it spits out... Seems odd!
<pjb> Sometimes numbers are absolute, without units. Mere scalars.
<pjb> For example, the efficiency of a system.
<Posterdati> in this case they are not, they have units :)
<Posterdati> so 12 VA are not 12 W for me :)
<Posterdati> because I have a real part and an imaginary part which I MUST TAKE in account
<pjb> Again, you're making a mistake. You should not encode anything into VA vs W, because VA = W they're identical.
<pjb> If you have something to encode, do it otherwise.
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<Posterdati> I can efficiently encode beacuse of the model
<Posterdati> anyway antik has got no var unit :)
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<pjb> And it's better to use internally normalized units such as kg·m2/s³ instead of VA or W, to be able to check unit consistency more easily.
<pjb> Well, it should be obvious by now that the hint is not to use antik…
<Posterdati> yes I will turn back to no unit numbers :)
<pjb> I didn't say that.
<pjb> You should use something like: (apparent-power 12 ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3))) (real-power 12 ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3)))
<pjb> same number, same unit, but not same physical grandeur.
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<pjb> (energy-drain 12 ((kg 1) (m 2) (s -3))) ; J/s = VA = W etc.
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<Posterdati> pjb: the use is through complex power: A=#c(1 1)=1W+j1VAR
<Posterdati> pjb: so to distinguish A from P you use 1VA not 1W which is indeed the real part of complex power!
<Posterdati> so to no mix the both when you say 1 VA your meaning a complex power or its magnitude, when you say 1 W you are meaning the real part of complex power which is the active power, the same one that can do work
<Posterdati> the reactive power VAR is intended to model the magnitude of electromagnetic energy which is bounced from generator to loads (in the steady state condition)
<Posterdati> in fact if you consider the transient condition, all these units are meaningless and only J and W are present
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<Posterdati> so it is only a mere problem or reppresentation!
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<pjb> Exactly.
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<Posterdati> pjb: but I'd like to use something to reppresent numbers in my model :)
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<easye> Good afternoon, Europe.
<beach> Hello easye.
<phoe> good afternoon, Java continent
<no-defun-allowed> Hello easye
<easye> In the interests of adding as little complexity to the ABCL implementation, I was thinking of allowing the CL:MAKE-ARRAY :INITIAL-ELEMENTS arg be a specialized type for the implementation. I think this is worse than adding another keyword argument :NIO-BUFFER to specify an initial elements to be taken from this specialized type.
* easye waves.
<easye> Opinions?
<easye> s/as little complexity/as little complexity as necessary/
<easye> The new type allowed for :INITIAL-ELEMENTS would be disjoint from the ANSI allowances.
<easye> Which is why I think this is a bad way to save adding another implementation-dependent keyword argument to CL:MAKE-ARRAY
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<heisig> easye: That sounds messy (but I haven't fully understood what you mean with 'a specialized type for the implementation'). Adding an implementation-dependent keyword sounds better.
<phoe> specialized type? what do you mean?
<easye> That the argument to :INITIAL-CONTENTS will be a type available only on ABCL
<phoe> clhs make-array
<easye> heisig: Thanks for the gut check.
<easye> s/will be/can be/
<heisig> You mean a symbol that designates a type?
<heisig> Because a compound type specifier would also be a valid sequence (-> messy).
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<phoe> the spec says, "initial-contents is composed of a nested structure of sequences."
<phoe> yes, that is going to be messy
<phoe> I think that an ABCL-only keyword would be better
<easye> RE: a symbol that... No, I mean that the argument will be a wrapped reference to an underlying Java type ("java.nio.ByteBuffer")
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<easye> phoe: thanks for the opinion. With you and Marco indicating uncertainty, I am definitely not currently planning on changing this for abcl-1.7.0.
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<pjb> Still, too bad this doesn't work: (make-array '(2 3) :initial-contents #2A((a b c) (d e f)))
<easye> pjb: an implementation would be free to DWIM, and still be conforming.
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<jackdaniel> (make-array '(8 8) :fill-pointer '(2 2)) would be cool too!
<jackdaniel> or :displaced-index-offset '(3 3)
<jackdaniel> (of course that would require remodelling aref to allow conformal displacement)
<flip214> jackdaniel: ROW-MAJOR-AREF can just a single numeric index
<jackdaniel> flip214: I know
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<jackdaniel> array with such non-coforming fill-pointer would wrap accordingly, that is row-major-aref 3 would reference the element 1, 1
<easye> You could actually wire this up without changing the implementations with macros...
<jackdaniel> you can even do that with functions
<jackdaniel> but that won't work with aref (unless you shadow it) etc
* easye nods. "better".
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<francogrex> Hi, I have a very long many lines of a text file and I know that in one line it has a faulty data an extra tab char that should not be there. can i indentify the offending line without reading the whole from A to Z? i know i can use random access and file position but I don't know exactly which position is the error
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<phoe> you mean that you want to find the tab character in the file?
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<francogrex> phoe: well each newline has only one tab in addition to other characters, however one line contains two tab characters, don't know which one, i would like to inspect that line
<phoe> so you need to find two tabs in a row
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<phoe> you can't find the needle in the haystack without finding the needle in the haystack
<phoe> so I guess the only option is to scan the whole file
<jackdaniel> francogrex: you may write few esrap rules to parse such file and signal a condition when you reach that particular line
<francogrex> ok
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<splittist> francogrex: the lines (records) are variable length? (extra tab aside)
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<francogrex> hi yes they are of variable (length)
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<jmercouris> I get a crash when trying to do CFFI from a bordeaux thread
<jmercouris> what could be the cause of this?
<jmercouris> looking at the stacktrace it seems all of the data is properl getting passed, is there something I am missing here?
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<phoe> "Unhandled breakpoint/trap at #x40704D3"
<phoe> SBCL is getting an unexpected unix signal for some reason
<Bike> did you set a breakpoint?
<jmercouris> I can set breakpoints?
<Bike> i mean, you could open up gdb and do whatever, sure.
<jmercouris> Enlighten me, you mean with (break)?
<jmercouris> I can hook up GDB to a lisp program?
<selwyn> not that kind of breakpoint
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<Bike> i don't think gdb works too smoothly with lisp, but you could, sure. and in this case you have C++ code running, and gdb knows how to deal with that.
<Bike> anyway, it sounds like the answer is no, you didn't set a breakpoint.
<jmercouris> the answer is no
<jmercouris> I have a feeling it has something to do with the thread not being able to return or something
<jmercouris> context
<phoe> "WebCore16ExceptionDetailsENS_12CallbackBase5ErrorEEEE" on line 10
<phoe> I have no idea what that is but it smells like some sort of error in JS
<jmercouris> hm
<jmercouris> from a bordeaux thread, can I run some portion on the main thread?
<jmercouris> can I evaluate a specific line on the main thread?
<Bike> well, just to be clear, getting a SB-SYS:BREAKPOINT-ERROR should mean your process recieved SIGTRAP.
<jmercouris> so does this mean a communication error between SBCL and the C++ code?
<phoe> it means that something sent a SIGTRAP to your process
<phoe> what and how - no idea
<jmercouris> hm
<Bike> i don't think sbcl uses sigtrap internally, so i couldn't tell you what's giving it that.
<phoe> "The SIGTRAP signal is sent to a process when an exception (or trap) occurs: a condition that a debugger has requested to be informed of – for example, when a particular function is executed, or when a particular variable changes value."
<phoe> mysterious!
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<jmercouris> that is certainly mysterious
<jmercouris> this is absolute nonsense
<jmercouris> who thought this was a good idea?
<francogrex> you can attach gdb to a running sbcl
<Bike> ah, i see, sbcl handles a bunch of cases of sigtrap and this is the default
<Bike> jmercouris: what's "this" here? unix debugging?
<jmercouris> Yes, unix debugging
<jmercouris> always such cryptic bullshit messages
<jmercouris> my favorite is sigabrt
* jmercouris picks up a copy of the unix haters handbook
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<francogrex> it's easy but you should know very well how to deal with assembly in addition to the src code for debuging
<jmercouris> "easy"
<jmercouris> same call outside of a bordeaux thread functions
<jackdaniel> traps are very useful for debugging actually, and they often have support from the processor
<Bike> you shouldn't need to know assembly for this.
<jmercouris> it is most DEFINITELy a context issue
<Bike> maybe it's one of those things that can only run in the main thread. thought that was a mac graphics thing though.
<jmercouris> that is a mac graphical thing
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<jmercouris> perhaps since GTK is on the main thread it doesn't like to get commands from a different thread
<drmeister> Has anyone used Xach's 'gridlock' - https://github.com/xach/gridlock
<drmeister> Or cl-gdata? https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gdata
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<drmeister> I'm interested in accessing google sheets directly - I was looking for some pointers.
<jackdaniel> NULL
<jackdaniel> does it count? :)
<phoe> jackdaniel: that is rude, why not give him a meaningful pointer
<jackdaniel> I would if I had!
<phoe> 0x0000001000025AB3
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<Bike> psh, it's not even aligned
<Bike> get out of here
<phoe> :(
<jackdaniel> I'm sure it is tagged because it is an immediate type! but then it is not really a pointer, so, well, what Bike said
<Bike> jmercouris: googling "webkit sigtrap" turns up some results that may or may not be relevant. lots of stuff about timers...
<jmercouris> Bike: yes, it needed execution on the renderer thread
<jmercouris> and silly me, I forgot bordeaux uses actual threads instead of lightweight threads
<Bike> it's just a wrapper for the implementation's threads. i don't know if any current implementations have green threads tho
<jackdaniel> cmucl?
<jmercouris> CMUCL probably
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<drmeister> jackdaniel, phoe: Those pointers both gave me segmentation faults - what kind of crap are you pushing here?
<drmeister> This is the kind of stuff I expect from ##C++ - but not here. Not here man.
<jackdaniel> strictly speaking NIL is also a pointer
<jackdaniel> I hope that it doesn't segfault on clasp!
<jackdaniel> here, take a moving square for consolation: https://turtleware.eu/static/paste/401f3fbb-fbuf.webm
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<drmeister> Alright - that's cool - I'll accept your moving square. Don't let it happen again.
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* drmeister has been binging on Breaking Bad.
<jackdaniel> :)
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<Josh_2> afternoon all
<beach> Hello Josh_2.
<Josh_2> Hi beach
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<max3> if i have a define that looks like (define ((fn a) b) ... )
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<max3> what am i looking at? a curried function?
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<phoe> max3: hmmm, doesn't look like Common Lisp
<phoe> which dialect is that?
<max3> mit scheme i guess
<max3> i'm reading a sussman book
<phoe> #lisp is a Common Lisp place - you might prefer #scheme
<max3> ok
<phoe> like, people there might be of more help
<pjb> max3: yes, scheme allows to define functions using a curried syntax.
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<phoe> (I personally see such a define for the first time! TIL it's even possible)
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<pjb> (define (x y) z) == (define x (lambda (y) z))
<pjb> it's recursive, x can also be a list.
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<max3> pjb what's the point of that? i don't have much experience but i thought relying on currying was an implementation detail? ala all of haskell's function are actually curried
<pjb> max3: silliness.
<max3> but the syntax doesn't need to explicitly show it (you can parens wrap -> in type defs for functions)
<max3> lol that's not the answer i expected
<pjb> max3: it's like C using the same syntax for types and for expressions defering.
<max3> sorry don't know what you mean by that - what's "expressions" defering" in C?
<pjb> typedef int *ipointer; ipointer p; *p=42
<pjb> instead of the more sane form: type ipointer = ^integer; p:ipointer; p^=42;
<max3> oh you mean derefing
<pjb> And of course, it's worse when you combine that with arrays, functions, structures, etc.
<pjb> Yes, sorry.
<max3> i'll move to scheme in a second but - is currying the only way to define multi param functions in mit scheme? do you know?
<phoe> multi param?...
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<phoe> (define (foo x y z) (+ x y z))
<pjb> max3: no, it's not multi-parm.
<pjb> it's functions returning functions.
<phoe> (foo 1 2 3) ;=> 6
<pjb> (define (((a x) y) z) b) = (define ((a x) y) (lambda (z) b)) = (define (a x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) b))) = (define a (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) b))))
<max3> pjb yes of course but that's my point about haskell - the effect is multiparam functions
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<pjb> contrarily to some other functional programming languages, functions returning functions are not curried at call time.
<max3> i have no idea how you guys read lisp
<phoe> max3: practice. :D
<pjb> Here, you have to write explicitely (((a 1) 2) 3), you cannot write (a 1 2 3).
<max3> here where? here in lisp?
<pjb> So this currying exists in scheme only in define.
<max3> but in this scheme flavor i see things like (* 1 2 3) -> 6
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<phoe> that's a different thing
<phoe> (a 1) returns a function, this function is then applied to 2 and this application returns another function; that another function is then applied to 3
<phoe> (* 1 2 3) returns a number, not a function
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<rpg> Do we believe that cl-json is no longer maintained? or am I just not finding the authoritative git repo. What I see on github.com/hankhero hasn't had any commits in 6 years.
* rpg is not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just determine the state of affairs
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<Bike> well that's what quicklisp has
<rpg> Bike: OK, Xach's estimate of what's canonical is good enough for me.
<theseb> Bike: I've never hard of "image based programming" until this channel from phoe...It bugs me that programmers all over the world can go their entire careers w/o ever learning about it
<phoe> hey, that's normal
<theseb> Bike: it isn't something that shows up enough that someone can even accidentally stumble upon it
<phoe> there's ton of other things that many Lispers can never hear about and have satisfying programming careers
<theseb> heard*
<phoe> same with other programming languages
<phoe> see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=545821 for a good argument
<theseb> phoe: every tech needs a gentle way to be introduced to it
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<thmprover> Is there a slick way to hook into emacs, to create the "(defpackage <path-as-package> (:use :cl)) (in-package <package-name>)" automatically when creating a new lisp file in my system?
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<thmprover> Looks like a slightly contrived emacs skeleton...
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