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<Xach>
drmeister: (ql-dist:clean ...) will do it.
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<drmeister>
Xach: Thank you - so (ql-dist:clean "quickclasp") or the system names?
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<drmeister>
Xach: While I have you - are you able to pull a release into quicklisp? https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads has been updated for clasp - but the quicklisp provided version is out of date and breaks.
<drmeister>
It's causing us some trouble.
<drmeister>
So much that I'm shadowing the quicklisp version with quickclasp.
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<Xach>
drmeister: the dist object
<Xach>
there will be a new quicklisp dist update tomorrow
<drmeister>
Excellent - I look forward to checking it out. Thank you.
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<fe[nl]ix>
Xach: if I make a new release right now, will it end up in tomorrow's dist ?
<fe[nl]ix>
I've been going through the issue backlog this week, and there's still a bit more to do
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<phoe>
fe[nl]ix: static-vectors most likely
<phoe>
uh I mean
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<phoe>
Xach: ^
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<Xach>
phoe: why most likely?
<phoe>
I remember a discussion from one or two days ago that mentioned an issue with s-v
<phoe>
and I thought that fe[nl]ix's comment is a follow-up to that discussion
<phoe>
but then again I might not have all the required context
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<Xach>
phoe: i thought it was in regards to drmeister's context, needing a recent bordeaux-threads for clasp fixes.
<Xach>
the immediately preceding discussion
<phoe>
oh! welp, okay then
<phoe>
please disregard me
<Xach>
but only fe[nl]ix can resolve with certainty!
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<easye>
In response to phoe's ticket on STATIC-VECTORS, fe[nl]ix "pushed a fix and made a new release" <https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/issues/27> "two days ago", so I would guess that Stellian considers the work not finished.
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<lukego>
hey what's a lightweight unit testing lib? like, to capture the kind of tests I usually just write at the repl? is there a really easy property-based tester too?
<phoe>
lukego: you are opening a can of worms
<phoe>
the most lightweight one you can use is DEFUN over a series of CL:ASSERT
<phoe>
for something just a wee bit more structured, 1AM has like a hundred times of easily readable code
* easye
is partial to PROVE. And I write all my tests, perhaps inadvisably, in CL-USER.
<easye>
My use of CL-USER is probably due to the fact that ABCL *still* doesn't do anything when re-eval'in a DEFPACKAGE form.
<phoe>
lukego: for property-based testing, I usually define the main body of a test inside a FLET and then MAPC APPLY that function over data
<easye>
Although PROVE has been deprecated from what I understand, so *really* don't follow my advice.
<easye>
I like that I don't have to name tests, but I can still associate a meaningful string naturally as a argument to each invocation.
<phoe>
lukego: or sometimes go for a DEFUN if the test body is shared between tests.
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* easye
looks up what a "property based test" would consist of.
<easye>
Guess I missed that bandwagon.
<lukego>
anyone use check-it? dunno whether to be bothered about no commits since 2015
<phoe>
lukego: the issue of unit testing frameworks in Common Lisp is a sensitive one in general
<easye>
I'm sure lukego is well aware of that, phoe.
<phoe>
oh, okay then
<phoe>
parachute user here
<lukego>
easye: property-based testing tbh I've never used but always wanted to. never seem to have a framework handy. idea is you give the test framework a generator for creating test data and it searches for an input to break the program. a bit like fuzzing
<easye>
Ah, so "iteration over a parameter space based testing"
<lukego>
yeah. where parameter space is basically a tree, and you gradually create larger trees while looking for a problem, then try to prune them back while preserving the brokenness
<lukego>
(I've often wondered if there's a language-agnostic property testing framework e.g. based on text files and BNF grammars or something, maybe I should check)
<easye>
lukego: such testing sounds immensely applicable to the sort of network messaging code you are famous for.
<lukego>
the approach was pioneered by John Hughes in Haskell-land. Later he made a small company supplying test development services in Erlang. Seems that they found some extremely bad bugs that had been haunting core Erlang libraries for decades.
<easye>
Well, I guess I did something like "property based testing" back when I developed rootkits fuzzing system call parameters.
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<lukego>
fuzzers are so sophisticated nowdays, symbolic execution etc, that I wonder if it's worth having a compiler backend that generates whatever is the best input for them e.g. C in some idiom
<easye>
But that was in a pre-CL daze for me. I guess I wrote that in C? Wow.
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<easye>
A notch above a script kiddie, I was really. And didn't know better...
<lukego>
I'm mostly procrastinating now I guess. I want to design my first printed circuit board now. obviously instead of learning how other people do it I want to write a lisp program to do it for me... found a promising algorithm from the literature that I need to implement
<easye>
A GA right? (inferring from your questions the other day)
<Shinmera>
easye: I'm also easily reachable if you need help or improvements with parachute :)
<lukego>
Great starting point for me. They identify the major problems in PCB layout, give them a name and a crisp description in computer science terms (as opposed to EE), and then present simple solutions
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<lukego>
I'll be using "BGA" chips and I need to "escape route" them from underneath the chip out to the perimeter, as a first step before bringing them somewhere useful. he has an algorithm for doing. It's clever. He basically makes a graphviz-style graph out of the geometry under the chip (pins, spaces between pins, how many copper traces can fit through each space) and then hands that graph to a program called CS2 that ...
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<easye>
Shinmera: Noted. You are definitely one of the most reachable figures in post-ANSI at this point . . .
<lukego>
... applies a "minimum cost network flow" algorithm from operation research (or something) and spits out the most efficient routes for all the copper traces
<lukego>
(reminds me a bit of talking with Jim Newton at ECLM meetups. He was working on electronics design tools at a major vendor but it was all so abstracted that really he was dealing with geometry e.g. polygons rather than messy analog physics)
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<lukego>
I really miss the old ECLM meetups I have to say.
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<Shinmera>
lukego: fwiw I've long been thinking about a random testing system for parachute. would need a system to describe sequences of valid forms as well as invariants to test.
<Shinmera>
but I haven't yet had time to work out anything concrete
<lukego>
I'll check out parachute, thanks for noting that
<Shinmera>
Well it doesn't have random testing stuff yet, so :)
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<lukego>
I don't really need that atm anyway, just wondering if it's available :)
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<grewal>
If I'm writing a math-heavy script, would using latex-style variable names (such as F_{p^2}) be more or less readable?
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<thmprover>
It's better to use conceptual names rather than LaTeX names, in my experience
<thmprover>
Though it helps to make a comment of the form, "corresponds to F_{p^{2}} in <paper reference>"...at least, I find it useful for unintuitive names I use
<phoe>
I would consider the symbol F_{P^{2}} to be a really weird thing to see in Lisp source
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<grewal>
Using conceptual names is a good idea, thanks
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<pjb>
phoe: I prefer to use Fₚ²
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<pjb>
phoe: but not everybody can read it, so F_{P^{2}} can be a good alternative.
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<thmprover>
Are there functions to automatically update my .asd file's components as I add more files (and subdirectories) in my system?
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hmm how do I convert pathnames to strings to avoid the \\[ issue happening in some of the filepaths files here: https://i.imgur.com/yLH1yhs.png ?
<Pixel_Outlaw>
flip214: I think I may have tried that but I fussed in the REPL quite a bit. Let me try that quickly...
<_death>
uiop:native-namestring
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Ah it looks like _death's approach works. I wonder why namestring doesn't resolve it? Thanks.
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<_death>
namestring is useless because its output is implementation-dependent
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
I see, so for the sake of sanity one really should just reach for uiop when dealing with files.
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<_death>
unfortunately
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<_death>
this is one area where a CDR and defacto agreement among implementors could remove an embarrassment
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<seok>
morning!
<seok>
is (intern "x") same as (defvar x)?
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<axion>
Not even close. `defvar` will intern X and define a dynamic variable, optionally with a binding. `intern` will intern a symbol, and in the case a different one with the default reader settings (x vs X)
<seok>
What is the difference other than defvar can bind a value?
<aeth>
a symbol doesn't need to have a binding in any of the six(ish) namespaces and probably only has it in a few... defvar necessarily creates a binding but I think it can make it unbound if you just do (defvar x).
<aeth>
That is, with (defvar x) x exists and is unbound.
<seok>
Yes,
<seok>
I am confirming whether (defvar x) and (intern "X") is functionally equivalent
<axion>
Intern is an integral part of the Lisp reader, completely distinct from variables and bindings.
<axion>
Every time the Lisp reader encounters a symbol, it is checked to see if it is in symbol table under that package, and automatically interns it if not.
<seok>
(defvar x) does make x without a binding as aeth said
<axion>
You should never type (defvar x)
<seok>
Oh, why not?
<axion>
defvar creates a special variable, and we use earmuffs to denote them, since they are truly special.
<seok>
I do it all the time!
<axion>
(defvar *x*) in this case.
<seok>
oh you mean syntatically
<seok>
xD
<seok>
i don't want to type earmuffs everytime I use dummy variables for debugging tho
<axion>
You kind of need to know if a variable is dynamic or lexical.
<axion>
Then you will surely get bitten
<seok>
What are examples of lexical variables?
<aeth>
seok: (defvar x) will make (let ((x 42)) ...) not behave as expected.
<seok>
Wait really?
<seok>
lexical = local variables?
<aeth>
that LET will rebind the global dynamic variable x instead of creating a new, lexical binding
<seok>
I do it all the time tho,
<seok>
I probably shouldn't
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<seok>
so back to my initial question, what is the difference between (defvar *x*) and (intern "*X*")?
<aeth>
(defun foo (x) ...) or (defun foo () (let ((x ...)) ...) will be broken in unexpected ways when you (defvar x) because it creates a variable binding but "unbound"
<aeth>
and it's dynamic/special
<aeth>
*x* avoids that, of course
<axion>
One creates a symbol. One creates a (special) variable, after interning (a different) symbol.
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<axion>
Oh you changed the question, so no different symbol.
<seok>
I've been doing that, but havn't had a malfunctioning function or let clause
<aeth>
seok: If you think visually... You can think of a symbol as having six or so bindings, like this: [######] or if there are, say, only variable and function bindings but not the rest it would be like [##____]
<axion>
Symbols are objects like anything else in Common Lisp
<axion>
They have various fields (called cells)
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<aeth>
seok: (intern "*X*") makes it [______] while (defvar *x*) makes it [#_____]
<aeth>
even though the # is "unbound"
<aeth>
It's bound to unbound, essentially
<aeth>
A weird edge case.
<seok>
intern would give a warning if you setf it after it then?
<aeth>
Yes, you shouldn't set things without bindings.
<seok>
I see
<axion>
It is undefined behavior to setf it
<seok>
it does
<seok>
just tried it
<aeth>
(defvar *x*) makes it safe to set
<seok>
Right
<aeth>
A lot of languages are messy languages that don't distinguish between binding and setting, e.g. Python.
<aeth>
Most dynamic languages are like this.
<seok>
I know there is a variable cell and a function cell
<seok>
but 6 cells? what are the rest?
<axion>
and 3 other cells
<aeth>
CL is like a statically typed programming language in that you have to bind things first.
<axion>
name, package, value, function, plist
<aeth>
seok: The 6 cells in my example were the six namespaces.
<axion>
There are 5 cells
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<aeth>
seok: There are at least six namespaces. The three main ones are variable, function, type/class... and several niche ones like tags in TAGBODY. I think the rest are local though
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<seok>
oh there is a separate namespace for class?
<aeth>
seok: The best example is LIST. It's a type, a local variable (probably, at least), and a function.
<aeth>
(The standard's variable names in function APIs aren't authoritative, so I guess it's possible for LIST to not be used as a variable name anywhere in a Lisp image, but it's very unlikely.)
<seok>
list is unbound, but is locked by CL
<seok>
you are right
<axion>
There are an arbitrary number of namespaces. Norvig pointed out at least 7 standard ones in PAIP
<seok>
I can't (defvar list)
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<aeth>
seok: You can't globally bind list because then you'd change its binding from local lexical bindings to a global dynamic binding, and that would be bad
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<seok>
where can i learn about these namespaces?
<aeth>
seok: LIST is probably used as a variable in e.g. MAPCAR, but it doesn't have to be. e.g. in SBCL the API is (mapcar function list &rest more-lists)
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<axion>
Norvig claims there are at least 7 namespaces: functions and macros, variables, special variables, types, go/tagbody labels, block names, symbols within a quoted expression.
<axion>
You can read a book, in this case PAIP
<seok>
Thanks axion
<seok>
wow a book from 1992
<aeth>
axion: it's in the standard, actually, but it's not directly in the standard
<jcowan>
Is it correct that the only way to return from SIGNAL is by using a restart?
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<heisig>
SIGNAL can also return when the condition is not handled at all. (Assuming the condition is not serious).
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<zulu-inuoe>
Yes, signal will simply return if no handlers do any transfer of control, even if the condition is serious. error only enters the debugger because it specifically says it does if no handlers transfer control
<zulu-inuoe>
> If the condition is not handled, signal returns nil.
<phoe>
jcowan: the only way to return from ERROR is transferring control because ERROR is SIGNAL + INVOKE-DEBUGGER
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<jcowan>
So if you want to guarantee that you never get back (except under restart control) you make sure your condition is a subtype of serious-condition?
<phoe>
the latter never returns, the former is allowed to return normally
<phoe>
no
<phoe>
(signal 'error) ;=> NIL
<Bike>
SIGNAL doesn't care about types
<phoe>
you want (error 'error)
<zulu-inuoe>
the type of the condition doesn't matter in any case
<phoe>
this never returns.
<Bike>
the only way to ensure SIGNAL never returns is ensuring that it's called in a dynamic environment with a handler that transfers control
<jcowan>
(Except for the fact that WARNING only accepts conditions of type WARNING, for no intelligible reason.)
<phoe>
yes, that is stupid.
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<seok>
Can you write a database in CL which can compete in performance with commonly used dbs like postgres?
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<phoe>
seok: sure you can, it'll just take tons of money, time, and effort
<seok>
How much money, time and effort?
<seok>
: D
<Xach>
seok: determining that will take an unknown amount of money, time, and effort.
<phoe>
^
<phoe>
I'm not going to make the estimates; you can try to figure out how many man-hours went into making postgres as great as it is now, if you can afford the estimates as Xach said
<Xach>
the nice thing is you can copy some of the hard work and lessons without putting in all the hours to learn them
<seok>
Since lisp is such a great language, would it take less people and code?
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<phoe>
mu
<pjb>
seok: postgres was written in lisp originally.
<seok>
Oh
<seok>
that's new
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<seok>
Why did they move to C?
<seok>
Is C faster than lisp?
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<pjb>
seok: postgres started in 1982. Let's estimate contributions of about 10 people per year for (- 2020 1982) #| --> 38 |# years, that gives 380 man.year. @ $100k /man.year, you need 38 millions to redo it in lisp.
<pjb>
seok: in 1982, CL didn't exist yet. Lisp implementations didn't run on all computers.
<pjb>
seok: for the same reason, the core of GNU emacs is written in C too.
<seok>
Right
<pjb>
seok: even if it takes ten times less effort to do it in lisp, that's still 4 millions to invest.
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<pjb>
seok: now, if you build a startup and sell it, you would get probably more like 100 millions than 4 millions, so you may want to do something else than re-implementing stuff in lisp. For example, you could want to build space ships (or just robots to build moon and mars habitat, and hire spacex to send them there).
<seok>
Is the reason why lisp fell behind C in popularity this?
<seok>
Incompatibility with OS?
<seok>
Was CL too late?
<jcowan>
Lisp was and has always been too early and too much.
<seok>
pjb, eh, but how many databases written in lisp are commercially relevant?
<pjb>
seok: as many as you wish: just write commercial products using them!
<seok>
I will raise some funds and give it a shot
<seok>
: D
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<jcowan>
That was the age of tiny memories, pausing GCs, and pessimizing compilers, which are the three major objections. Debugging in two languages is still hard, but one would need a lot less C, perhaps none, today.
<jcowan>
_death: I believe the maning of seok's question was: what search terms did you use?
<_death>
the real issue according to this paper was the Lisp + C work
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<_death>
jcowan: well, funny.. now that I retrace my steps it wasn't a search engine ;)
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<_death>
jcowan: wikipedia postgres page says "POSTGRES used many of the ideas of Ingres, but not its code" and citation leads to czech wiki page about postgres history.. this one mentions Lisp but in the context of PICASSO.. I noticed it had a link to the paper with one of the coauthors (Rowe) being the Picasso paper author
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<_death>
there was also a czech paragraph about Lisp saying it was a mistake ("Poznámky" 19) with that document as citation
<_death>
I used google translate for that
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<_death>
there are (human) beasts on the web that are search engines
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<jcowan>
Quite so.
<seok>
Hm.. can't figure out how to connect to wss : (
<seok>
I guess I have to do it in node
<jcowan>
I've been trying to figure out how and why the Scheme and CL versions of handler-bind diverged
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I'd just have preferred if IBM didn't introduce so many noise words into their query language :). aka FETCH FIRST 10 ROWS ONLY could just have been FIRST 10.
<jcowan>
The most important difference is that CL handlers decline by returning, whereas Scheme handlers decline by resignaling; when a Scheme handler returns, the caller receives the value(s) returned unless the signal operation does not permit it
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<jcowan>
Pixel_Outlaw: That goes back to one of the design goals of Cobol: non-programmers should be able to read it even if they can't write it.
<jcowan>
"ADD A TO B GIVING C", for example.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Yes, having to read COBOL daily you can easily see the influence.
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* Pixel_Outlaw
is a dept manager with a legacy insurance system on AS/400.
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<pjb>
Pixel_Outlaw: The same thing in cucumber!
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<jcowan>
System/3, System/3, See how it runs, See how it runs, Its monitor loses so totally, It runs all its programs in RPG, It's made by our fav'rite monopoly, System/3.
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<axion>
Xach: Question
<axion>
How does specialization-store pass through your tests, if it emits warnings on SBCL during loading, due to redefining 2 defgenerics that were previously defined?
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<fe[nl]ix>
Xach: I was referring to bordeaux-threads
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<Xach>
fe[nl]ix: have you released it?
<Xach>
axion: are they full WARNINGs at compile time?
<axion>
Xach: What is "full"?
<axion>
WARNING:
<axion>
redefining SPECIALIZATION-STORE.LAMBDA-LISTS:PARAMETER-TYPE in DEFGENERIC
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<axion>
I opened an issue because I see 2 warnings whenever I compile that system, and was curious how it never got caught earlier by Quicklisp
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<Xach>
axion: i mean not a style-warning
<axion>
It is not
<Xach>
axion: how do you load that you see those warnings?
<Xach>
i mean, do you use asdf:load-system or something elsE?
<Xach>
axion: i see the warnings too, but it looks like it is not in a position or context where asdf considers it a failure, or there is something funny going on to suppress that asdf behavior.
<axion>
the first part is in my sbclrc, so I may see more warnings than most
* Xach
checks the system file
<fe[nl]ix>
Xach: in 5 minutes
<Xach>
axion: i don't see anything obvious, but the short answer is that it isn't caught because SBCL or ASDF do not catch it. why they don't, I can't see offhand.
<axion>
Ok thanks for checking. I raised an issue with the author
<axion>
It is because they are defining a generic function in one package, and then trying to define a distinct generic function in another package that :USE's the first.
<axion>
Somehow I thought this silly mistake could be detected by the QL deployment process. Oh well
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<Xach>
axion: I don't know the specific rules that trigger a failure in compile-file when there's a warning.
<Xach>
Possibly that warning is not in compile-file.
<fe[nl]ix>
Xach: Bordeaux-threads 0.8.8 is out
* Xach
builds and builds
<fe[nl]ix>
lots of Genera fixes this time
<bitmapper>
too bad portable genera is unobtainable
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<seok>
How would you test if a value is any one of multiple values?
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<seok>
(= x (or a b c d e))
<seok>
want something like this
<seok>
obviously that's not right
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<seok>
I don't want to write (or (= x a) (= x b)....)
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<Xach>
seok: one option is MEMBER
<seok>
xach indeed that works
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<seok>
thanks
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