p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<White_Flame> matzy_: one last thing that I don't think was mentioned: if you build an executable to deploy, you can tell it which function to call on startup of the executable
<White_Flame> so that's still left as a function to call in the code, not directly executed on load, but a separate step that the startup does
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<White_Flame> another option is to have a batch file launch sbcl & give it cmdline parameters to tell it what to load & execute, or to run a small separate .lisp file which triggers the startup code, which is not quickloaded by default
<White_Flame> but yeah, starting stuff automatically on load via toplevel code, especially when it takes up resources like a socket, isn't a good way to do it
<White_Flame> maybe for doing some quick interactive iterations, but that's then removed once you've settled in on what you want to do
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<Josh_2> phoe: I think it does update automatically
<no-defun-allowed> Only on the Lisp side.
<Josh_2> so the table beneath has not :O
<no-defun-allowed> I recall the manual specified that table migration hasn't been done yet.
<Josh_2> sigh
<Josh_2> I will do the database stuff once I have a beta version going
<Josh_2> for now I can use normie classes
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<Josh_2> Good morning beach
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<loke`> re
<loke`> foo
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<no-defun-allowed> Josh_2: Well, you probably should have a storage protocol, which would allow you to switch between in-memory, filesystem, database backends, and so on.
<no-defun-allowed> If you change how you use that database (eg the representation and tables), that would also reduce the amount of code you have to update.
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<Josh_2> no-defun-allowed: initially I'm not going to have any persistent storage until I know what I want the interface to be
<Josh_2> I will just test directly in the lisp image
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<bhartrihari> Is there a hope for any lisp implementation to support saving a lisp image running several threads? Has this been attempted in the past?
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<Josh_2> huh?
<Josh_2> why would you need to do that?
<Josh_2> just start the threads when the image starts
<bhartrihari> To save state across slime sessions.
<bhartrihari> Josh_2: ^^
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<Josh_2> hmm
<Josh_2> but you can save your lisp image, then you can connect to it with slime and that will save your slime session
<Josh_2> thats how I work on many of my projects
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<bhartrihari> Josh_2: What about the state changes during the slime session? They will be lost. I'm just wondering if people have attempted it, or if it is even possible.
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<Josh_2> Just don't kill your image :P
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* Lycurgus has moved to sly
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<bhartrihari> I moved to sly, then moved back to slime.
<pve> how does sly compare to slime?
<pve> better in some ways, or strictly better?
<Lycurgus> bhartrihari: why?
<Josh_2> Lycurgus: I have been using it for ages
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<Lycurgus> strictly better by default if at all since it's a fairly clear scope, cl emacs debug/ide things
<Lycurgus> Josh_2: 'it' being sly?
<Lycurgus> that and it (sly) runs direct against slime, name and all
<Josh_2> yes
<Lycurgus> ah
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<Lycurgus> well i wanted clasp to be aware of other cl's and they looked at me like I'd sprouted a second head
<Lycurgus> also i didn think sly was ages old, for which I would have needed at least a decade
<Lycurgus> MVS 3.8 is ages
<Lycurgus> sbcl as the going cmucl is ages
<Lycurgus> sly as the new slime i didn no
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<bhartrihari> Lycurgus: Editing multiline sexps was troublesome (for me at least) in Sly repl. I usually ended up pressing the up arrow and brought up the last history item, instead of moving a line up. Presentations are nice as well, although I don't have any special preference for them over buttons. And colours, (Yikes!) Sly needs to desaturate the colours a bit. And I use spacemacs, and Sly layer for spacemacs was
<bhartrihari> n't outdated. I also never used the reading aids sly provided (colours).
<Lycurgus> i c
<bhartrihari> I mean, sly spacemacs layer was outdated.
<Lycurgus> i forget what spacemace is
<Lycurgus> *emacs
<bhartrihari> It's a layer of Elisp goodness over emacs. An Emacs distro.
<Lycurgus> i just use regular emacs, but I did in past use xemacs
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<Lycurgus> there are typos in the sly documenation
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<Lycurgus> like the ctl seq to select the lisp to run
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<Lycurgus> but i think it's small minded to harp on stuff like that if the end thing/goal was done
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<bhartrihari> I'll check it out again, it seems to have improved since I last checked.
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<White_Flame> bhartrihari: even if saving an image paused & saved all the running threads, the sockets would all be lost, and SLIME would need specific support for resuming sessions with a new socket connection.
<White_Flame> it wouldn't be transparent, and could theoretically be implemented even without thread serialization
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<bhartrihari> I see. It could also be useful for saving game state, and in other things. I'm not sure how implementing that (saving repl state via slime) without thread serialization would look like.
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<bhartrihari> White_Flame: ^^
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<White_Flame> it's a pretty big "theoretically" ;)
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<bhartrihari> Does smalltalk do thread serialization while saving images?
<Xach> bhartrihari: this is a channel for common lisp
<White_Flame> a random stackoverflow answer seems to indicate it does, so it is different than CL in that respect
<White_Flame> CL doesn't serialize the "main thread" either
<White_Flame> only basically the heap
<bhartrihari> Xach, of course. But this was brought up in a conversation about saving runtime images in Common Lisp implementations.
<bhartrihari> Lycurgus, Also, slime can connect to schemes as well, using r7rs-swank.
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<xristos> bhartrihari: it does, you can try it out yourself if you open transcript and execute the following in a workspace window (assuming Squeak)
<xristos> [1 to: 10 do:[ :i | Transcript show:i. Transcript cr. 1 seconds asDelay wait.]] fork.
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<xristos> then quit/save while the process is running
<refpga> Thanks xristos
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<xristos> there's a patch for Lua to do the same
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<bhartrihari> Thanks, I'll take look at their image formats and how they do it.
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<xristos> for CL, in practice a lot of your state is in memory (which will be dumped in an image)
<xristos> for state present in stack frames you usually checkpoint execution, serialize to memory, dump, deserialize and create new threads on image load
<xristos> not as convenient as saving/resuming the world but works quite well in practice
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<bhartrihari> Do you happen to know how that compares to smalltalk? How do they serialize threads?
<xristos> you can probably find good uptodate references online
<bhartrihari> Sure. Thanks.
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<Lycurgus> in fine, smalltalk threads are probably not what you think they are (machine, os ones) while common lisp ones are more likely to be
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<White_Flame> bhartrihari: smalltalk seems to have a specified VM bytecode, which would encapsulate a standard execution state to serialize. CL is intended for whatever native compilation, with no standard intermediate/lower level representation
<bhartrihari> I see.
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<phao> Hi. Wasn't there a wiki for this channel?
<phao> I think I was confused. I was thinking about this one: https://www.cliki.net/
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<phao> Another question. I've heard it is possible to use the PAIP book by Norvig to learn the basics of common lisp and of AI together. Is it true or do I have to learn common lisp before going for PAIP?
<xristos> PAIP contains a good introduction to CL, but it's not really about modern AI
<Kozo> Anyone have an opinion on "Common Lisp in the Wild"?
<phao> xristos, I see. All I wanted was a book on common lisp "with some applications"
<phao> that it isn't about modern AI is fine by me.
<xristos> phao: it's a great book and a good intro
<phao> Thank you. Any chances you have a better recommendation?
<phao> I intend to go on onto books later on.
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<xristos> on lisp and let over lambda are more advanced books, both worth reading after you've written some Lisp and are comfortable with macros
<phao> Ok.
<xristos> the art of the metaobject protocol too
<xristos> i would avoid practical common lisp, it's dated and doesn't have much to offer
<xristos> PAIP is a better time investment
<phao> I see. I actually would have guessed practical common lisp would be a better option. I didn't "go for it" because of the selection of topics in there.
<phao> PAIP seems way more interesting.
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<xristos> well, PAIP is a great book, almost a work of art
<xristos> PCL is your run-of-the-mill language book
<xristos> so if you'll only read one, make it count
<phao> Hehe ok
<Josh_2> wait now we have a phoe and a phao that's gonna get confusing
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<Xach> practical common lisp is a very good book that covers parts of Common Lisp that is not treated with much detail by PAIP or any other CL book.
<Xach> the creative use of method combinations for parsing binary file formats is a great illustration of their utility.
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