<phoe>
the largest bloaters, size-wise, are all the DEFINE-CONDITIONs. And the largest bloater, cognition-wise, IMO, is HANDLER-CASE with its :no-error case
<phoe>
as Stas once said, a condition system is easy; dynamic variables, UNWIND-PROTECT, and GO/RETURN-FROM are hard
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<beach>
phoe: I see, yes. We have already taken care of the hard parts in SICL then.
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<phoe>
glad to hear that
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<beach>
phoe: Would you like to work on SICL with us?
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<phoe>
beach: I will possibly be able to contribute a thing or two, sure. My main focus will be CLUS as soon as my book is finished, but I think I'll be able to add this or that to SICL in meantime.
<beach>
Sounds great! Do you have a preferable subject you would like to dig into?
<phoe>
the condition system, unsurprisingly
<beach>
Sure.
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<phoe>
CCL defines a non-function setf expansion for gethash.
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<pjb>
McParen: the problem as you noted, is that there is NO setf accessor for random places.
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<pjb>
McParen: It can be a special case of the SETF macro, it can be a defsetf (2 forms) or a define-setf-expander, or it can indeed be a function named (setf foo). For places defined in CL, and defstruct, you cannot expect anything. Only for your own definition of a (setf foo) function (or generic function).
<jackdaniel>
(setf (random) 5) #| based on a dice roll |#
<pjb>
McParen: If you want to extract some information about the implementation of gethash, you can use (macroexpand-1 '(setf (gethash k h) e)) #| --> #+ccl (ccl::puthash k h e) ; t |#
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<pjb>
For people who like to talk about primitives, well, (setf (gethash k h) e) IS a CL primitive! :-)
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<jackdaniel>
having (setf foo) as a valid function name is such an ugly exception
<jackdaniel>
in cl
<shka_>
ugly but practical i guess
<dlowe>
clever, though
<shka_>
fiat multipla of cl
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<jackdaniel>
dlowe: care to elaborate?
<_death>
some implementations extend this practice.. e.g. (cas foo)
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<dlowe>
jackdaniel: avoids name clashes
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<jackdaniel>
I don't understand
<pjb>
jackdaniel: agreed. 1- implementations can allow other lists as function names, perhaps user-defined lists. 2- all places should be defined by such function (but let's check whether it's really possible for all of them).
<no-defun-allowed>
Less annoying than (set-foo <instance> <new-value>), but I guess it could well be generalised to any list as a name. (SBCL does that at least?)
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<pjb>
_death: what implementation extends it?
<jackdaniel>
no-defun-allowed: I'm not saying that setf is a bad idea, I'm explicitly talking about functions named (setf foo)
<_death>
pjb: sbcl
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<dlowe>
jackdaniel: what would you have them be named?
<shka_>
no-defun-allowed: that would take a lot of time to put in to cl standard
<pjb>
What does (cas foo) mean? where are they used?
<shka_>
pjb: compare-and-swap?
<_death>
pjb: it stands for compare-and-swap.. (describe 'sb-ext:cas)
<jackdaniel>
dlowe: setf expansions doesn't have to be functions (and often they are not)
<pjb>
ok. So a kind of setf. Nice.
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<jackdaniel>
if you really want to have a function, then name it whatever you like, and make setf expansion use it
<pjb>
and 3- the standard doesn't force implementations to use implementation specific mechanisms or defsetf/get-setf-expansion, instead of all (setf foo).
<jackdaniel>
but this doesn't matter, I'm just saying that this is an ugly exception and I was surprised that you've called it clever
<pjb>
But again, there may be a case or two where get-setf-expansion is required…
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<phoe>
some implementations just do stuff like (fdefinition '(setf gethash)) ;=> #<FUNCTION |SETF Expansion for GETHASH|>
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<dlowe>
jackdaniel: if there has to be a name, it's a clever way to name it so that name collisions are not possible.
<jackdaniel>
this argument is not convincing to me. thanks for elaborating though
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<_death>
if (setf foo) was not treated as a function name.. things could still look the same, except you'd have to resolve it yourself before funcall/apply, no?
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<jackdaniel>
yes, given that it expands to a function call
<_death>
(and of course eval)
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<jackdaniel>
defgeneric-star in clim is an interesting example of defsetf use with functions
<_death>
jackdaniel: would you prefer that?
<jackdaniel>
what I prefer what? that (setf foo) is never a function? sure, but it doesn't bother me much
<jackdaniel>
so I won't demand a new standard ;-)
<_death>
jackdaniel: that everything is the same except a (setf foo) list can't be passed to funcall/apply
<easye>
Hmm. Trying to run McCLIM I get the "McCLIM was unable to configure itself automatically..." condition. The system I am running on is macOS which seems to have both XQuartz and MacPorts X11 packages installed which is what I suspect is causing the confusion.
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<easye>
I don't really remember much about fontconfig under X11. Is there a resource somewhere that could be recommended to refresh my memory?
<jackdaniel>
_death: sure, then function names could always be compared with eq in the compiler ,)
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<jackdaniel>
easye: McCLIM looks for TTF fonts in standard locations
<jackdaniel>
a homegrown renderer with kerning and stuff is used instead of X11 fonts
<easye>
Well, some of the TTF fonts are present, but not DejaVuSansMono
<jackdaniel>
I think that restart allows you to provide some other ttf. I want to bundle default fonts with McCLIM in the future
<jackdaniel>
but I didn't get to it yet
<easye>
At least not under <file:/opt/X11/...> where McCLIM seems to be searching.
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<_death>
jackdaniel: function-name-equal or hash is only slightly more complex :)
<jackdaniel>
easye: you may push :mcclim-ugly to features
<jackdaniel>
to use x11 fonts
<Xach>
hmm, has static-vectors changed recently?
<easye>
Yeah. there is a restart for specifying an alternate font path, but not an options to merge.
<jackdaniel>
_death: as I said, I don't think it is critical in any way, it is just an ugly irregularity
<pjb>
Try it: (defun |SETF Expansion for FOO| (v x) 'hi) (defun (setf foo) (v x) 'lo)
<phoe>
fe[nl]ix: ^
<pjb>
It'd better be #<FUNCTION #:|SETF Expansion for GETHASH|>
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<Xach>
phoe: thank you
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<ralt>
I wonder if it's possible to implement yield/coroutines almost painlessly with some abort-thread/restarts tricks...
<ralt>
or only restarts, maybe
<phoe>
ralt: you still need to unwind the stack when you leave the coroutine
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<jackdaniel>
there is a library green-threads, maybe you can find some inspiration there?
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<flip214>
ain't coroutines mostly Continuation Passing, ie. the CPS transform?
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<heisig>
I just checked - green-threads uses cl-cont. So it uses CPS.
<jackdaniel>
afair cl-cont is made in a roundabout way due to lack of the implementation support
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<dlowe>
green threads are substantially less useful when I/O blocks every thread
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<ralt>
dlowe: green threads are substantially more useful when I/O blocks every thread, because then you can use an epoll-based event loop
<dlowe>
blocks every green thread, I should say
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<ralt>
jackdaniel: the issue is that ideally you need to find a way to monkey patch standard library functions (read-sequence etc) so that you can transparently switch to green threads
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<ralt>
or you can do cl-async etc but it becomes hairy.
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<roelj>
Thanks. That gives good starting points :)
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<|3b|>
3bz is probably still slow with actual CL streams, so manually buffer those into ram if you need that
<|3b|>
should be reasonably fast from actual files it can mmap, or from (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)), or foreign pointers
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<|3b|>
(currently lacks much testing beyond being used for loading pngs though, if you manage to break it let me know)
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<phoe>
Xach: static-vectors is updated
<rpg>
Quick SLIME question: I have updated to master recently and the C-c L <x> chords don't work for me any more. I get the prompt after C-c L but after that no keystroke moves me to a new buffer and I have abort out of the minibuffer. Anyone else seeing this? Seems like the input parser isn't accepting any of my characters. When I look in the messages buffer, it looks like my characters are getting upcased so that slime is seeing, e.g., ?\R
<rpg>
instead of ?\r...
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<rpg>
oh, I see... grrr....
<phoe>
hm?
<rpg>
Aquamacs....
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<rpg>
Aquamacs did a bad thing to redefine KEY-DESCRIPTION, but SLIME shouldn't use it the way it does, either -- it's making a pretty description specifically for display, and not for use matching.
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<rpg>
Is there any way to tell if a system is being loaded by Quicklisp or by ASDF without Quicklisp?
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<phoe>
rpg: define "loaded"
<phoe>
do you mean by #'ql:quickload or by #'asdf:load-system?
<rpg>
Is the top level call QUICKLOAD or LOAD-SYSTEM?
<jcowan>
There is no reason not to multiplex green threads on OS threads.
<phoe>
rpg: the quicklisp-client code does not show anything
<phoe>
#'quickload calls #'autoload-system-and-dependencies which calls #'apply-load-strategy which calls #'asdf:load-system
<phoe>
with no dynamic variables bound in between that would show that ASDF is getting invoked from QL.
<rpg>
phoe: I was hoping there might be a dynamic binding or something. Turns out ASDF's DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON doesn't work properly, so you may still have to put a manual LOAD-SYSTEM in an .asd file. So you should really quickload instead of load-system if the asdf file is being loaded by Quickload rather than load-system.
<phoe>
rpg: doesn't work properly? What do you mean?
<rpg>
If you have a system that extends the initargs of DEFSYSTEM, then it will error out parsing the defsystem before it gets the defsystem-depends-on dependency loaded.
<phoe>
I see
<phoe>
rpg: we are going to hell for this, but you should be able to use ql::*macroexpand-progress-in-progress*
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<phoe>
this dynavar is bound to T just before ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM is called
<rpg>
phoe: I should probably figure out how to extract :defsystem-depends-on **before** calling parse-defsystem, but ... 🤮
<phoe>
rpg: that would be much better, yes
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<phoe>
as for that variable, let us invoke Hyrum's Law
<phoe>
"With a sufficient number of users of an API, it does not matter what you promise in the contract: all observable behaviors of your system will be depended on by somebody."
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<phoe>
I mean, I think this is as good of a *quicklisp-operating-p* as we can get right now
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<rpg>
phoe: 👍🏻
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<p_l>
Weird question, but I have a bunch of code that might be only accessible short term from python, burgled batteries might not be enough (callbacks), does anyone have experience using CORBA or similar?
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<fe[nl]ix>
wow, CORBA. that's a name I hadn't heard in a while :D
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<fe[nl]ix>
since doing some work on Gnome 1 in high-school ~20 years ago
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<fe[nl]ix>
p_l: what do you need do to ?
<p_l>
fe[nl]ix: I have working OPC UA (industrial automation) library in Python, but the tasks I need to do with it are annoying to write in Python and wanted to use C Land have the python just so interface
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<p_l>
Gah
<p_l>
Autocorrupt
<p_l>
And wanted to use another language (CL) to drive actual logic with Python just as interface
<p_l>
Started to think CORBA might be a good idea fof minimal effort wrapper
<p_l>
Had we knew a lot more few weeks ago, I'd have just rewritten OPC UA code in CL
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<p_l>
heisig: I'm more looking towards the opposite, minimizing presence of python and coding as much as possible in CL and PAIPROLOG
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<jackdaniel>
p_l: check out thrift
<jackdaniel>
it has support for both common lisp and python
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<p_l>
Is the CL binding in any better shape than protobufs, and did they fox the abysmal protocol situation since 2016? (used thrift in the past)
<jackdaniel>
I don't know what is the absymal protocol situation since 2016, so I can't say. I don't know what is the shape of protobufs, so can't help with that either.
<_death>
the cl-protobufs system looks pretty good.. there's also py4cl (2) btw
<housel>
I used CLORB to do CORBA from SBCL back in '07 or so
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<p_l>
Reason I consider CORBA over protobufs and thrift and the like - I could get away with writing no custom session / context handlers and just export python objects and consume them from CL
<p_l>
housel: how did it go for you?
<housel>
The IDL integration was convenient; beyond that I don't remember much
<katco>
is there somewhere other than the asd file something like this should live? i'm running into a problem wherein guix (linux distro) generates its own asd file to load precompiled fasls, and any top-level stuff in the original asd file doesn't come along for the ride. https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/master/lparallel.asd#L31-L54
<matzy_>
ok i'm honestly really stuck, i've been googling and trying to figure this out since 9am, and i'm about to go crazy. i'm using easy-routes (a wrapper lib for hunchentoot), but need to set my Access-Control-Allow-Origin and Content-Type. I originally tried to set them at the top of the file, but wasn't having any luck. So I tried setting them in
<matzy_>
a specific route, and i'm no longer getting any eval errors, but when i try to hit the route with my front-end it is saying in the console "No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource", yet I specifically set that header in my route to "*"
<katco>
consequently, when the fasl is loaded, the runtime complains that it can't find `sb-cltl2` because it's only required in the asd file.
<katco>
is this a guix problem, or a lisp best practices problem?
<_death>
katco: if guix "generates its own asd file" that definitely sounds like a guix problem
<matzy_>
testjson is the route i'm trying to get to work now
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<katco>
_death: well, maybe? but it's very similar to an asd file that might be generated with a `deliver-asd-op` which would also exhibit this problem
<katco>
guix just does it itself so that it can inject paths to dependencies, which are a bit special in guix
<katco>
maybe put more clearly: i think putting code in an asd file assumes that loading that asd file is the only way to utilize the library, which i don't think is always true (e.g. loading fasl files, or asd files generated by asdf).
<katco>
but i am here to check my suppositions! :)
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<_death>
katco: but it is the only way in practice
<fe[nl]ix>
.asd parsing is not pure, because of reader conditionals and the fact that any code can be defined there
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<fe[nl]ix>
so what guix does is doomed to fail. it just happens to work in some simple cases
<fe[nl]ix>
who wants an ASDF4 ? please raise hands :D
<katco>
well, guix has techniques to alter the packages being compiled. i'm just trying to determine if they need to be employed.
<katco>
but it sounds like code in asd files is an expected norm, and needs to be accounted for
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<matzy_>
nvm i FINALLY figured it out
<matzy_>
I was sending the same headers from the front-end too
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<katco>
ty for your input, _death and fe[nl]ix
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<matzy_>
wow, so it looks like the problem was defining the routes with easy-routes:defroute. once i switched to hunchentoot:define-easy-handler everything worked fine. does that make sense though? i thought easy-routes was a light wrapper on top of hunchentoot
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<resttime>
Any CFFI maintainers here? I might have found a bug in cffi-libffi which I came across trying to pass a foreign structure by value to a varadic argument function
<resttime>
libffi docs say that ffi_prep_cif_var needs to be used in this case
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<pve>
In the glossary entry for compiler macro functions, it says that the function may return nil to indicate that the original form should not be replaced. Is it really so?
<pve>
sbcl seems to replace the form if I return nil
<Bike>
the glossary entry is incorrect.
<pve>
ok thanks
<Bike>
to indicate that the form shouldn't be replaced, you return the original form.
<pve>
yep
<Bike>
this will inhibit further compiler-macro-expansion so it won't loop forever.
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