p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<fe[nl]ix> luis: can you prepare another cffi release by the end of the month ?
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<lukego> I'm using a multidimensional array in Lisp for what I think is the first time. Guess I must have always used nested lists/vectors in the past.
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<loke`> They can be useful at time.
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<lukego> Oh I /love/ this: when you write "(loop for x from 1 to 20 do", then press return/newline, Emacs uses only a minimal amount of indentation for the next line. So you can write nested loops like that without hitting the right margin, provided you keep 'do' on the first line. That solves a pain point of looping over products of variables for me :)
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<loke`> lukego: normally you'd do (loop for ... <newline> do (whatever)
<loke`> (with a newline after "loop")
<loke`> If you want a multiline "whatever", you'd perhaps do (loop <newline> for ... <newline> do <newline> (form 1) <newline> (form2)
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<beach> loke`: Why would you have a newline after LOOP?
<beach> That's wasting vertical space?
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<loke`> beach: because it lines up nicer. Especially with the Emacs indentation rules.
<loke`> For multiline LOOP I always put it on a line of its own.
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<beach> You must not be using the slime-indentation contribution. It lines up perfectly well if you use it.
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<loke`> beach: I am, actually.
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<beach> Then I see absolutely no reason to waste vertical space by sticking a newline in there, unless of course you are strapped for horizontal space. But that's different issue.
<loke`> Matter of taste I guess. I don't see vertical space as something that needs to be conserved :-)
<beach> Yes, I understood what you said, and I think it's a waste of vertical space.
<beach> Oh wow!
<beach> It has to do with how many lines can be simultaneously viewed in a window.
<loke`> My Emacs has 82 visile lines of text. I'd probably care more if I was using smaller windows.
<loke`> I beach: I think you probably would have written this macro in a much more veritcally compressed form? https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/renderer.lisp#L172
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<pi____> hi all, what is the minimum --dynamic-space-size required to build sbcl from source ? Default is 512MB for 32-bit and 1GB for 64-bit machine.
<loke`> pi____: the build script should handle that?
<pi____> I tried building without passing this argument, but build crashed with memory error.
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<loke`> pi____: what paltform are you on?
<pi____> I got 434MB of RAM only. :(
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<loke`> pi____: How much swap?
<pi____> Swap is 100 MB.
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<loke`> And what kind of computer is this?
<pi____> ha ha
<loke`> pi____: That's way too little. Add a few GB
<pi____> Raspberry Pi board with 700 MHZ processor and 434 MB RAM.
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<loke`> pi____: your problem is that you run out of virtual memory on the computer. The heap size of SBCL has nothing to do with it.
<loke`> Try adding about 2 GB of swap and it'll work, I'm sure. It may not be very fast, but it should work.
<pi____> @loke - I just started build with 64MB of space, but build is going on slowly for more than an hour.
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<loke`> pi____: I'm guessing it's not actually progressing.
<loke`> It's probably died already.
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<pi____> I can see logs rolling so far.
<pi____> [162/310] src/compiler/fndb - that is line just logged to console.
<loke`> I would fully expect the SBCL build to throw a heap exhausted error with only 64 MB
<pi____> Is dynamice space is same as JVM max heap size ?
<loke`> pi____: not the same, but it's conceptually similar, yes.
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<pi____> How people used to program on low conf machine in 80's and 90's ? I thought lisp will do just fine on such low end machine.
<loke`> pi____: You have to use a Lisp from that time, and use software from that time too :-)
<pi____> Well default SBCL i installed from apt-get working just fine.
<loke`> CLISP runs very well on such platforms for example.
<loke`> I also compiled ECL on a LEGO Mindstorms controller, which has 32 MB of RAM if I'm not mistaken.
<pi____> But It did not have mult threading enabled. That is why I am trying to build from source.
<loke`> pi____: I'd just add more swap and see how it goes.
<pi____> In fact, i was able to write simple math calculator in emacs+slime env without any issue
<pi____> When I started hunchentoot server, the slime just hanged
<pi____> Found comment on Stackoverflow that sbcl might not have thread support enabled
<pi____> and it is waiting for request on socket
<pi____> so i can't do anything in slime. I have to kill emacs and restart it.
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<loke`> pi____: another solution is to compile it on a machine with more memory. You could even set up a QEMU ARM emualtor on your main workstation and compile there.
<lukego> I'm toying with the idea of allowing 100 columns (gasp) instead of 80. YOLO amirite
<loke`> lukego: I've used 140 colums for a long time now. It's a nice width.
<loke`> There is exactly zero reason to use 80.
<lukego> Glad we sorted that out..
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<pi____> loke`: Right now this is the only machine I got. My macbook is at service center.
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<loke`> pi____: set up a machine on Digital Ocean or something?
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<pi____> loke`: the build is in progress right now, so if it fails I will try that.
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<seok> whats the term for when a database ensures one operation is completed before another one?
<no-defun-allowed> Atomicity?
<no-defun-allowed> In a database, those might be called transactions.
<seok> atomicity is right i think
<seok> I think there's another one they use for dbs tho
<seok> ?
<seok> ah
<seok> acid
<seok> atomicity is the a of acid
<seok> thanks
<no-defun-allowed> Well, the unit of which changes are done is a transaction.
<seok> yeah
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<no-defun-allowed> What's the right way to make sure a class is a direct-superclass of a class I'm instantiating with the MOP?
<beach> "make sure"?
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<beach> You want to not instantiate if the condition does not hold?
<beach> And what does it mean to "instantiate with the MOP"? MAKE-INSTANCE is standard Common Lisp.
<no-defun-allowed> Good point, that is a vague question. I want to add a direct superclass to instances of a metaclass.
<beach> Ah.
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<beach> Let's see...
<beach> mop ensure-class
<beach> Or you can probably just do REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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<no-defun-allowed> I have tried using a :around method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE specialised to that metaclass, and a method for CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES, but neither appears to work correctly when I test (typep (make-instance 'a-class-with-that-metaclass) 'that-direct-superclass) with various implementations.
<beach> What did your :AROUND method do?
<phoe> no-defun-allowed: check if the type is a member of CLASS-DIRECT-SUBCLASSES
<phoe> s/type/class/
<phoe> that's how the check can be done
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<phoe> oh, wait, that's somewhat more complex...
<beach> no-defun-allowed: I'll let phoe help you. Otherwise, I will just add noise to the discussion.
<phoe> beach: you are probably more awake than me, so more able to help
<no-defun-allowed> It would (apply #'call-next-method :direct-superclasses (append direct-superclasses (list <the class I want to add>)) rest)
<beach> And in what way did it fail?
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<no-defun-allowed> When I proceeded to test (typep (make-instance 'a-class) 'the-class-I-added), I would get NIL, but that class was in the class-direct-superclasses and class-precedence-list.
<beach> That's strange.
<no-defun-allowed> Pardon me, that was only in some implementations. Others would return T as expected.
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<beach> Ouch.
<beach> Which ones returned NIL?
<phoe> no-defun-allowed: I assume you used CLOSER-MOP
<phoe> because this sounds like a bug of sorts
<no-defun-allowed> Although, after staring at it for a bit, it has been working, and I don't know what I changed. Maybe I forgot some C-c C-c's.
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah.
<beach> Your technique ought to work.
<no-defun-allowed> The method for class-direct-superclasses didn't work on SBCL, and then the :around method on initialize-instance didn't work on Clozure, but now the latter works on both. Testing ECL now.
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<beach> Yeah, I don't think your method on CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES can work.
<no-defun-allowed> And I take it I should define a similar method for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE?
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<phoe> beach: wait, a method on C-D-S?
<phoe> hm
<beach> no-defun-allowed: Yes, probably so. You need to check that the keyword argument was given at all, and if so add your class.
<no-defun-allowed> json-mop does another thing, which is to cons on its JSON-SERIALIZABLE class in a method for COMPUTE-CLASS-PRECEDENCE-LIST.
<beach> Hmm. OK.
<no-defun-allowed> That is subtly broken, because now if you have a generic function with one method specialised on the json-serializable class, and another specialised on an instance of that metaclass, the former will be selected first.
<beach> I see, yes.
* no-defun-allowed is waiting for Ironclad to compile on ECL, because that is a dependency of the code in question. Maybe she could have made a smaller test case in that time.
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<no-defun-allowed> Okay, I need to fix some other stuff apparently, but that should work. Thanks beach and phoe!
<no-defun-allowed> There we go, it works on ECL now.
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<beach> Great!
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<Gnuxie[m]> *no-defun-allowed*: json mop doesn't use cpl
<no-defun-allowed> Gnuxie 💜🐝: Not this one? https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop/blob/master/src/json-mop.lisp#L52
<Gnuxie[m]> Ahh sorry, yep
<no-defun-allowed> And your fix does exactly what I do now in Netfarm. Heh.
<Gnuxie[m]> The open PR there is actually wrong too I need to change it
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<Gnuxie[m]> Like this?
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<no-defun-allowed> That's what I used to do in Netfarm, but that's still buggy.
<Gnuxie[m]> Damn ok
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<phoe> beach: https://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/index.en.html "What is wrong with Lisp" gives a 404
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<no-defun-allowed> I am told "Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr. The certificate is only valid for dept-info.labri.fr." here.
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<phoe> that too
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<no-defun-allowed> When I correct the URL, I can confirm that document is not found, nor "Psychology of Learning"; but I think they are the same as the pages on metamodular.com with some formatting changes.
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<jackdaniel> more I use defclass more I'm convinced, that after the slot name each option should be written in a new line
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<jackdaniel> s/in/after/
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<paule32_> hello
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<paule32> i have download, install, play with quicklisp, now, i would play with Qtools
<paule32> on this, i would set the maximum width of a qline edit
<paule32> but i fail
<paule32> (define-subwidget (main-window name) (q+:make-qlineedit main-window)
<paule32> (setf (q+:placeholder-text name) "Your name please."))
<paule32> this is a example, from qtools
<phoe> are you familiar with how Qt works?
<paule32> yes, but in c++
<paule32> so, how can i set the maximumwidth in lisp
<paule32> ?
<phoe> (named-readtables:in-readtable :qtools) (setf (q+:maximum-width name) 1234)
<phoe> should work like that
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<phoe> just make sure you're in the proper readtable, otherwise q+: won't work
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<paule32> ok, thank you
<paule32> it works
<paule32> give it a reason that the function names/properties differ from Qt and Lisp ?
<phoe> yes
<phoe> C++ has a different casing than Lisp
<phoe> and so Qtools translates from e.g. minimumWidth to minimum-width
<paule32> in Qt C++ => maximumWidth , and in Lisp: maximum-width
<paule32> ah ok
<phoe> that is what the q+: reader macro does
<phoe> yes, exactly.
<phoe> Qtools is based on CommonQt, which uses the C++ naming
<phoe> Qtools makes the names more consistent in style with the Lisp world though
<paule32> ok
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<beach> phoe: The correct documents are now on metamodular.com.
<phoe> beach: thanks, found them there.
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<beach> phoe: I plan to record the presentation later this afternoon.
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<phoe> beach: thanks!
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<nabataeus> Hello friends
<beach> Hello nabataeus.
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<nabataeus> I started reading "on lisp" by paul graham
<nabataeus> I think the book is pretty cool
<beach> Yes, but not a book for beginners.
<nabataeus> I sure know that, I've read practical common lisp before
<beach> Whew!
<nabataeus> Yeah, it has introductory sections which is pretty good
<nabataeus> A more introductory book on lisp would be "ANSI Common Lisp" right?
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<beach> Yes, but Graham's coding style is not that great, and he doesn't like CLOS, so PCL is better than Ansi Common Lisp in that respect.
<nabataeus> Oh yeah, i've found that it's a bit difficult reading his code, i get a headache everytime i see recursion haha
<nabataeus> But lisp is not really meant to be functional at all. Is it?
<nabataeus> Or in other words, while it has functional programming capabilities, you're not supposed to write purely functional code.
<beach> Correct, Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language. You will find the functional programming style mostly in macro expanders.
<beach> ... simply because they should be side-effect free, and performance is not an issue.
<beach> For the rest of the code, modern Common Lisp uses a lot of generic functions and classes, so CLOS-style object-oriented code.
<nabataeus> Macros should be side effect free? But i've seen macros written in a very imperative style. I suppose it's not a good practice then. ^^
<beach> They could be written in an imperative style, but they should not have any side effects to the global environment.
<nabataeus> Mind providing an example please?
<beach> I said that the functional style is mostly used in macro expanders, but I didn't say that most macro expanders use the functional style.
<beach> A macro expander that increments a global variable would be an example of a side effect.
<beach> I am talking about the code that transforms one form to another form. Not the code that results from the expansion. The latter code can be anything of course.
<nabataeus> I see
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<nabataeus> So, if I'm following you correctly, macros that transform code from one form to another form, with side effects, are considered a bad practice.
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<beach> As long as the side effects are to lexical variables private to the macro expander itself, there is no problem. What is not great is when there are side lasting effects to the global environment, as a result of the macro expander being executed.
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<nabataeus> Ah, this makes sense, since mutating or iterating global variables is deemed destructive to the program.
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<nabataeus> My apologies if I'm asking dumb questions here, I'm new to programming in general. :D
<beach> There is no problem of doing that in application code. The problem I am talking about is side effects as a result of a macro being expanded. The standard does not tell you how many times a macro expander might be invoked, so side effects would have unpredictable results.
<beach> Imagine there is a global variable *foo* with the value 234. Then you COMPILE the following code (defun fun (x) (when (= x 2) 33)). And now *foo* has the value 456.
<beach> ... because someone write (defmacro when (condition &body body) (incf *foo* 234) `(if ,condition (progn ,@body)))
<MrtnDk[m]> <nabataeus "My apologies if I'm asking dumb "> (progn (defun whack-newbie (victim) (laugh 'evilly) (whack victim) (whack-newbie name)) (whack-newbie nabataeus))
<beach> MrtnDk[m]: Please refrain!
<nabataeus> Haha :D
<nabataeus> But I suppose mutating global variables in general a bad practice, and not just limited to macros.
<MrtnDk[m]> Ahh man, I forgot the most important thing, a friendly smiley.
<nabataeus> ... so it would be still a bad practice if I mutate in a DEFUN block.
<beach> No, like I said, mutating global variables is fine, when you need to have some state of the system being modified as a result of executing code.
<nabataeus> Alright. Thx for the info. :D
<MrtnDk[m]> (beach — from what exactly)?
<beach> Noise! In particular in the middle of a serious exchange.
<MrtnDk[m]> beach : Ahh yeah, I forgot for a second that reply doesn't work well with IRC.
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<nabataeus> Oh, I also found this which kind of made me curious -- is there a difference between LISTP and CONSP?
<nabataeus> ... other than the name, obviously. :P
<beach> Yes, the empty list is a valid list, and the empty list is NIL.
<beach> But NIL is a symbol so it is not a CONS.
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<beach> Try (listp nil) and (consp nil).
<nabataeus> (listp nil) -> T -- (consp nil) -> NIL
<beach> Exactly!
<nabataeus> I see, however (consp '(nil)) returns T, I guess that's because NIL is an element inside the list.
<beach> Yes, that's a list with one element in it. So it is not the empty list.
<nabataeus> Yeah, but isn't NIL supposed end a list or something alike?
<nabataeus> How can you have a list with NIL.
<eta> the CAR is NIL and the CDR is NIL
<beach> NIL is just another object. So it can be an element of a list.
<aeth> Because NIL in the CDR ends the list. A list with NIL has it in the CAR
<aeth> '(1 2 3) is sugar for '(1 . (2 . (3 . NIL)))
<beach> nabataeus: It looks like you are going to get help from others, so I will be quiet to avoid adding to the noise level.
<aeth> '(NIL) is sugar for '(NIL . NIL)
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<aeth> And, for completeness, '() is 'NIL which is NIL
<nabataeus> aeth: I see, so lists are basically pairs within nested pairs, that end with NIL.
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<aeth> Well, not quite. Proper lists end in NIL. Improper lists do not. '(1 2 . 3) is '(1 . (2 . 3))
<aeth> Generally, APIs that expect lists expect proper lists, though.
<aeth> e.g. this will error: (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 . 3))
<aeth> Improper lists are rare, but they can exist because of the way lists work (being built up from cons pairs)
<nabataeus> Interesting.
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<aeth> Afaik, efficiently, what you do is you go through an entire list and error at the end if the CDR is neither NIL (the normal terminator) nor a cons
<aeth> (Or you can just use things that already do this, like MAPCAR.)
<aeth> You can see this if you introduce a side effect, e.g.: (mapcar #'print '(1 2 . 3))
<aeth> You can check up front with alexandria:proper-list-p or checking the type alexandria:proper-list, but then that's an O(n) check because you'd have to iterate through the entire list to do so.
<nabataeus> Yes, MAPCAR does return the error "3 is not of type LIST".
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<nabataeus> So basically an improper list is a list that ends with a pair instead of NIL.
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<aeth> nabataeus: No, a list doesn't end with a pair. If it's a pair, then it continues. An improper list ends with anything other than a NIL.
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<aeth> '(1 2 3) ends with NIL and is actually the same as '(1 2 3 . nil)
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<nabataeus> Oh... :D This makes sense.
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<beach> aeth: Not true.
<beach> aeth: Any ATOM other than NIL.
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<jackdaniel> I'm still trying to traverse the #1=(foo . #1#) to see what it ends with, no luck so far
<beach> Patience!
<jackdaniel> :)
<eta> hang on
<eta> does bordeaux-threads no-op RELEASE-RECURSIVE-LOCK on SBCL
<eta> because I think it does and that's /really/ bad behaviour
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<jackdaniel> acquire-recursive-lock is also a no-op, you are expected to use with-recursive-lock-held
<jackdaniel> that said, using recursive locks with condition variables in sbcl is a bad idea on its own terms, because spurious wakeup of the condition does not re-acquire the lock
<eta> jackdaniel, yeah, okay, so this fun behaviour is the cause of all sorts of fun deadlocks
<eta> I tried to define a WITHOUT-RECURSIVE-LOCK-HELD implemented in terms of those primitives
<eta> ....so that's been doing nothing all this time
<eta> not using condvars though
<jackdaniel> heh
<eta> well, that explains this mystery deadlock that's been bugging me for a month
<jackdaniel> (I thought that you said "hang on" and started traversing the list though)
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<eta> hah
<eta> jackdaniel, foo foo foo foo foo...
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<aeth> beach: Sorry, I meant to put an "Otherwise," in front of my third sentence.
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<aeth> (Since the prior one is saying that a pair in the CDR doesn't terminate the list.)
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<pve> Hi, is this the correct way (roughly) to define a function equivalent to defparameter?
<Bike> other than the docstring, yeah, looks like it to me
<pve> yeah minus the docstring
<pve> thank you
<pve> there's no built-in function, right?
<Bike> no.
<pve> ok great
<Bike> though, for a runtime application like this you may not need to declare the symbol special, in which case it's just set.
<Bike> you can use set and symbol-value for a symbol independently of whether it's special.
<pve> hmm right
<Bike> should only matter if you're also, like, evaluating or compiling code that uses the symbols
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<pve> yeah, I was just thinking about how to declare (or if at all) special variables in this language I'm making that doesn't have macros per se
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<pve> I've noticed that doing certain things without dynamic variables can get.. a little clunky
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<phoe> pve: you're implementing Smalltalk, right?
<phoe> or did I mix things up
<pve> phoe: yep, or a smalltalk-inspired language
<phoe> there's no real global variables in Smalltalk, it seems; a way to emulate those is to create variables in the global dictionary named "Smalltalk"
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<phoe> so, basically, speaking Lisp, there's a single global hashtable that holds all the globvar-value mappings
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<phoe> dirty, but then again, it's Smalltalk, and global variables don't play as much of a role as global vars do in Lisp
<pve> yep, although I have no qualms about mixing in lisp concepts if they are useful
<pve> not a purist by any means
<phoe> well then, global dynamic variables do make things very nice
<pve> can I show you what I got so far?
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<phoe> pve: you may, though it is too late for me to comprehend programming
<jackdaniel> fe[nl]ix: will you accept an "expected failures" features in fiveam?
<jackdaniel> s/features/feature/
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<pve> phoe: hehe it's ok, here are a couple of screenshots (because syntax highlighting):
<pve> obviously it's very much wip, and forgive the bad font
<pve> the first picture defines the loader's source-file class, the second defines an asdf-module
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<phoe> the "mode: lisp" is kind of lying, but
<phoe> oh wait a second
<phoe> it's also not, kind of
<edgar-rft> Smalltalk + Common Lisp = "Small Lisp" or "Common Talk"?
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<pve> it's hard to say if it's lying
<Xach> SML or C++/Tk
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<pve> i just put it there to get C-c C-k etc working
<bitmapper> did someone say SML
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<pve> phoe: because almost everything in the first picture is a lisp symbol, exeptions being "." and ","
<pve> exceptions
<phoe> oooooh
<phoe> I see
<Inline> edgar-rft: common talk
<pve> or lisp form would be a better way to put it
<Inline> edgar-rft: since it's extended now
<Inline> lol
<bitmapper> edgar-rft: flavors
<Inline> vanilla topping please
<Inline> lol
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<edgar-rft> I'm also in favour of Common-Talk :-)
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