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<Kozo>
Greetings, I have emacs-auto-complete installed but it won't auto complete operators for me when writing common lisp. Is someone able to point me in the right direction please?
<shinohai>
>,< 2nd emacs questions today ... try #emacs, this is common lisp chan
<Kozo>
Alright, thank you
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<shinohai>
He left before I could say "vim FOREVAH!"
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<oni-on-ion>
hi Pixel_Outlaw
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
phoe: No, I hadn't seen that. Probably didn't exist when I did my work. And the purpose is not the same anyway.
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<no-defun-allowed>
What do people use to send email from Common Lisp?
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<Shinmera>
cl-smtp if you already have a mail host.
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<no-defun-allowed>
That'll do then, thanks.
<Shinmera>
caveat: only supports none/plain login types, and does not support pgp/mime
<no-defun-allowed>
Should be enough to login to a specially set up email account and mail the operator a thread backtrace?
<Shinmera>
sure
<Shinmera>
pretty much all email providers use plain login
<no-defun-allowed>
All good then.
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<larsen>
good morning! I am having a problem with Slime I don't know how to debug and fix. If I invoke macroexpansion (slime-expand-1, C-c RET), instead of showing the result of the macro expansion in a dedicated buffer (*slime-macroexpansion*), it: opens said buffer; expands the macro _inplace_, meaning it substitutes the content of my file buffer with the result of the expansion (I then have to revert-buffer to restore the situation). I
<larsen>
suspect this has to do with other Emacs extensions I use, but I can't imagine a strategy to debug the problem (other than emacs -Q I guess, and trying to activate my setup piece by piece)
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<pve>
Good morning. Am I correct in assuming that the following must return a string if the package ASD doesn't exist:
<jackdaniel>
and "If editor::buffer is seen, the effect is exactly the same as reading buffer with the EDITOR package being the current package. "
<pve>
ok, that's good to know
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<larsen>
ah, for the record, it seems it was edwin mode
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<iissaacc>
web scraping in common lisp is an incredibly pleasant experience
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<phoe>
iissaacc: XML represented as S-expressions is pleasant in general
<phoe>
instead of </p></div></div></div> one has ))))
<phoe>
I find that to be an amazing tradeoff
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<p_l>
just remember to handle the fact that XML has packages with local nicknames :P
<phoe>
so do we nowadays!
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<iissaacc>
and when i just blindly used pmap from lparallel in the REPL without doing any setup
<iissaacc>
instead of an error message i get a friendly "welcome to lparallel!" condition prompting me to set up a kernel
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<iissaacc>
why dont more people use this language?????
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<p_l>
phoe: yes, but that requires a bit more work if you are going to represet XML in S-expressions :)
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<pjb>
one could map xml namespaces to cl packages…
<p_l>
pjb: unfortunately I fear that one would need a special object for XML entities unless one wants to accidentally pollute the image in bad ways, for example to have nickname-independent namespace handling, as well as XML attribute lists
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<_death>
iissaacc: would be better if it set up a default kernel
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<p_l>
_death: I disagree. IIRC there's a single line to add to setup a kernel, and the main reason to have even the ability to use multiple kernels is to have control over them. If it created a kernel automatically, it would break a lot of stuff in fact
<p_l>
(related: why ITA ran, iirc, a customized CCL version that was modified precisely to not start threads automatically)
<phoe>
it's hard to perform DWIM if WIM is not well-defined in an objective enough way
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<phoe>
and for multithreading this is exactly the case
<_death>
p_l: a default does not preclude multiple kernels.. and a lazy default of a kernel containing nprocs workers makes sense to me.. I don't see why it should break stuff
<_death>
right now I have a line in my .sbclrc setting the kernel, and indeed it's an issue when dumping an image.. I could wrap the toplevel with a handler-bind to set it lazily, but..
<p_l>
_death: because there are non-trivial interactions in the running environment related to whether you have single or multiple threads
<p_l>
and lazy setup has the issue of possibly being triggered by mistake
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<_death>
p_l: a default kernel would be useful in a development setting.. an actual application would explicitly init its own kernel
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<p_l>
_death: the issue I see is that anything that triggers threading is a danger in *development* setting. Much less in a deployed application setting
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<no-defun-allowed>
I guess nproc is usually correct, but some people like to count cores and not hardware threads, and if I was doing something like pmapping URLs to retrieve over a network, I would want more worker threads.
<p_l>
it's already an issue when you link to some foreign lib and it triggers a thread when you don't expect it
<p_l>
phoe got it right about DWIM being hard when it's hard to know WIM
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<no-defun-allowed>
(Oh, and you would also have to implement thread count detection, as lparallel doesn't have that to my knowledge.)
<p_l>
you'd also need to check things like current resource limits, which is non-trivial and OS specific and nonportable
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<_death>
it's not hard to find defeaters for any default.. anyway, even if the default default is not to have one, it could still make sense to allow a different default, say by setting lp:*kernel* to a function that can be called to create the actual kernel which will then be assigned to lp:*kernel*
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<_death>
in fact I'm gonna patch my local lparallel to have that
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<_death>
good, this conversation helped solve that issue ;)
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon all
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<dra>
Hello Josh_2!
<phoe>
heyyy
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<dra>
Heya.
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<Josh_2>
sub lexical, super sub lexical scope, all madness!
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<younder>
Josh_2, Well one of Lisp's traditional uses has been to experiment with languages. So you'd expect a bit of weirdness.
<Josh_2>
most of what I have read in Let Over Λ I just can't see how they would be used practically
<Josh_2>
but then again I imagine I thought that about various programming paradigms xD
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<younder>
Josh_2, Let over lambda is a bit weird. Most get their bearings with 'Practical Common Lisp' with Peter Seibel
<Josh_2>
Yes
<Josh_2>
I've read that
<Josh_2>
well most of it
<younder>
Josh_2, Then there is Common Lisp Recippes' by Edi Weitz
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<Josh_2>
I have read a bit of that
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<Bike>
let over lambda is pretty strange, yes. many of the things in there are in fact impractical
<loli>
defmacro! or w/e it is called, can be nice to use. Though I haven't used much outside of that
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<rumbler31_>
is there something similar to #x and #b for decimal numbers? I have an interesting bug where I have set print base to 16 and I want to explicitly read a base 10 integer, this is proving hard to google
<Krystof>
the decimal point at the end is a perfectly good other solution though
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<rumbler31_>
so i have a usocket connect call where I defined the function that uses this in the repl after I changed print base
<rumbler31_>
the resulting connect port gets read into its base 16 version (that miraculously is a legal base 10 number) and that number is passed to the lower level socket open call
<rumbler31_>
I don't think its a bug per se, just trying to reason through the logic
<phoe>
rumbler31_: how do you change the print base?
<phoe>
I assume it's some sort of a global change
<rumbler31_>
I thought at first that it would be fixed by being explicit about the base of the number that I typed into the repl, #10rnumber seems to be what I originally asked
<rumbler31_>
(setf *print-base* 16)
<phoe>
ow
<phoe>
it's weird for me to compile whole systems that way
<rumbler31_>
then numbers in the repl are printed in base 16 for the most part
<rumbler31_>
I didn't compile it that way, I was playing on the repl
<phoe>
oh!
<phoe>
and then did ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM or something?
<rumbler31_>
I mean, I am not compiling a whole system,
<rumbler31_>
I set print base to look at network byte data with plokami and then wrote a funciton in the repl to rebroadcast packets to a udp port
<phoe>
oh, yes
<rumbler31_>
print-base was already 16 when I wrote (defun once ((open socket host portnumber))
<rumbler31_>
so port number was read from decimal into hex, which happened to be a valid decimal number, then that number was passed to the lower level open call
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<rumbler31_>
oops now i've run out of file handles for opening too many sockets and forgetting to close them lol
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<francogrex>
I am disgusted by swig, language cffi and uffi are no longer support. makes me want to vomit
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<kinope>
Hi! Quick question. Are Common Lisp's bitwise operations like 'logand' considered as performant as their C/C++ counterparts? I've seen this used as an optimisation where a bitmask that is a power of two is used to do modular arithmetic.
<ralt>
kinope: you can probably double check that with DISASSEMBLE
<phoe>
kinope: basically, modular arithmetic in CL happens only when you ask for it
<phoe>
which means that you need to do a proper LDB or MOD for the compiler to notice "oh, I can optimize it into a single CPU instruction on a machine word"
<pjb>
kinope: can C/C++ & perform a bit and operation on 10,000 bits?
<phoe>
kinope: that's a completely orthogonal issue
<pjb>
kinope: I don't think C/C++ can reach the level of performance of CL…
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<pjb>
kinope: if you want to learn something, try to write in C: (defun f (x) (if (< x 0) 1 (* x (f (- x 1))))) (defun main () (print (f 1000)))
<pjb>
kinope: then you can try to compare the performance of your C program and of this CL program.
<pjb>
and tell us what you find.
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<phoe>
pjb: right, let's solve a different problem and call that the solution
<pjb>
indeed, C and CL don't solve the same problems.
<kinope>
ralt: unfortunately for me ECL doesn't do dissasemble, but I did just have a look at the source and it looks like logand is directly translated to C's bitwise and '&'. I can't find where mod is implemented just now though.
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<jackdaniel>
the function mod is implemented in src/c/num_co.d, but the compiler may opencode it into something more efficient if it i.e knows that arguments are fixnums
<kinope>
pjb: I couldn't tell you about that operation on 10000 bits, Bit twiddling is not my forte
<jackdaniel>
regarding bitwise operations, their optimizations are in src/cmp/cmpopt-bits.lsp
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<kinope>
bjb: Is that a function utillising tail-call recursion?
<kinope>
Oh, thanks for that jackdaniel! I appreciate the assist.
<jackdaniel>
note that mod is hardly a bit fiddling operation
<jackdaniel>
for working with bits there are ldb, dpb and ash
<jackdaniel>
(and some other)
<pjb>
kinope: (defun make-lots-of-bits (n) (map-into (make-array n :element-type 'bit) (lambda () (random 2)))) (let* ((n 10000) (a (make-lots-of-bits n)) (b (make-lots-of-bits n)) (c (bit-and a b))) (print a) (print b) (print c))
<kinope>
jackdaniel: I'm looking at an implementation of a lock-free data structure that I think is bit twiddling for the added performance. I'm just trying to figure out if i can get away with using just the standard 'mod' to the same effect.
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<_death>
kinope: a tail recursive one would have something like (f (- x 1) (* x acc)) in the "induction step", i.e. calling itself would be the last operation
<pjb>
kinope: or: (defun make-int-with-lots-of-bits (n) (random (expt 2 n))) (let* ((n 10000) (a (make-int-with-lots-of-bits n)) (b (make-int-with-lots-of-bits n)) (c (logand a b))) (print a) (print b) (print c))
<pjb>
kinope: same exercise as above, do the same in C, and tell us what you get.
<jackdaniel>
pjb: I don't think taht this is helpful
<jackdaniel>
s/taht/that/
<pjb>
Ok. the original question was idiotic. Does this help?
<phoe>
neither do I, but that's pjb being mostly right and mostly irrelevant
<kinope>
_death: oh I see
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<jackdaniel>
it was a question of uneducated folk, but I don't think that confusing him more would make him ask better questions
<phoe>
pjb: answering a question with an equally idiotic answer doesn't help anyone, even if the original question is, in your opinion, idiot.s
<phoe>
s/idiot.s/idiotic./
<pjb>
phoe: perhaps you should do those exercises yourself, and learn something!
<phoe>
pjb: perhaps you should do some exercises on being relevant instead of abrasive.
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<pjb>
phoe: the original questionw as a comparison of C and CL on logand. There is no more relevant than to write two programs, in C and in CL using logand.
<kinope>
I may give that a shot later pjb, but right now its 3am in the morning and I'm not set up for C development on my phone, haha.
<pjb>
phoe: you have to be an idiot not to see it…
<phoe>
pjb: the original question was about using modular arithmetic and its performance, since that's all what C and C++ are capable of unless one uses a bignum library, and your answer was about bignums, which do *not* use modular arithmetic, and therefore your bignum answer did not apply to it.
<phoe>
pjb: you have to be an idiot not to see it.
<jackdaniel>
please stop calling each other idiots (even in a hypothetical form)
<pjb>
phoe: most modular arithemetic is used in cryptography, on numbers bigger than a long long.
* phoe
disengages
<pjb>
In accounting programs, int are not used for their modular arithmetic.
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<Bike>
(let (l (list 2)) ...) binds L to nil, and LIST to 2
<enedil>
oh, damn, you're right
<enedil>
why isn't that an error?
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<enedil>
It would be useful not to allow implicit binding to NIL
<Bike>
it's a shorthand syntax.
<reb>
It's in the language specification and occurs in real programs.
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<enedil>
I'll take your word, I don't have much experience programming in lisp
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<phoe>
enedil: that's what allows one to write (let (x) ...)
<phoe>
it's equivalent to (let ((x nil)) ...)
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<enedil>
oh, cool, in fact that's useful for me right now :p
<_death>
it's useful if you want to program FORTRAN in Lisp.. though there are better options like prog and &aux
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<kinope>
ooh, I like that
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<enedil>
I mean, I would try to understand id better, but now I'm writing for code to pass my class, due to covid we had "remote classes" - consultations by email, so now, I'm trying to make some code that works. My go-to functional language is OCaml and it wouldn't like this kind of solution too
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<dlowe>
I usually only use the bare let variable clause when I intend to setf it
<dlowe>
(let (x) ... (setf x (blahblah)))
<dlowe>
but that's more personal idiosyncrasy
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<Xach>
dlowe: i use that form in COND sometimes
<Xach>
like (cond ((setf result (blah ...)) <use result>) ...))))
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<pjb>
dlowe: I prefer to use let rather than setf: (cond ((let ((result (compute-result))) (do-something-with result) result)) …) ; not the empty body.
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