<thmprover>
I need to learn all the sordid details of CLOS's implementation (specifically its defgeneric and defmethod dispatching system), what's a good reference for that?
<no-defun-allowed>
Art of the Metaobject Protocol?
<no-defun-allowed>
I haven't read it, admittedly, but that's the CLOS implementation book to my knowledge.
<thmprover>
Awesome, good to know, thanks :)
<thmprover>
I'm trying to implement a constraint propagator system based on a paper by Gerald Sussman, and he uses a hackneyed generics system in Scheme which I think CLOS can handle...whatever-the-heck he's trying to do...better
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<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, wait, if you want to know about method dispatch, then you might want CLHS 7.6.6 more.
<adlai>
specifically, the examples at the end of that entry might cover the use-case you need
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<thmprover>
Awesome, thanks adlai
<adlai>
you're welcome! no-defun-allowed also gave you good link, for the detailed description of the standard combination
<thmprover>
I've bookmarked both, I'll read them both tomorrow after work. Thanks for the references, adlai and no-defun-allowed, but it is late, and I need sleep. I'll catch y'all tomorrow.
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<no-defun-allowed>
jmercouris: Silly question, why did you name the Next browser to Nyxt? Better searchability?
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<contrapunctus>
adlai: halt state, as in can't understand it? Or red flag?
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<adlai>
contrapunctus: gift means gift in english, and gift in german. shell scripts have functions, so naming an executable in PATH "funcall" is just asking for desk head, palm face, and full amygdalar agonization
<contrapunctus>
Ahahaha
<contrapunctus>
I can see why it may cause aesthetic or semantic dissonance.
<adlai>
this gifts a whole new meaning to "i'll buy you a beer" "no, i pay for my own drinks" "please, a gift from the conference sponsor"
<pve>
I made it mainly for myself, but if anyone finds it useful then that's cool too
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<contrapunctus>
pve: thanks. I stared at the example for a few moments before I realized that I'm looking at keywords, not namespace prefixes hidden by nameless-mode. Spent too long in Emacs Lisp land 😄
<pve>
contrapunctus: ok.. I'm not familiar with nameless-mode
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<pve>
actually let me update the readme with the resulting shell script
<contrapunctus>
Oh, I didn't mean to imply any deficiency in your project 🙂
<pve>
no but I want ot
<pve>
to
<pve>
contrapunctus: ok now
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<pve>
looks like I was in the wrong package when I did that..
<contrapunctus>
pve: fascinating 😀
<pve>
ok that's better
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<pve>
I thought I had a with-standard-io-syntax in there..
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<jackdaniel>
fe[nl]ix: pong
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<luis>
fe[nl]ix: I'll have to search for my bordeaux-threads stuff, but it's probably not very different from Shinmera/atomics. What did you have in mind?
<luis>
fe[nl]ix: thanks for the borodust link, btw.
<Shinmera>
Unfortunately the divergence between implementation capabilities in this regard is fairly big.
<Shinmera>
Atomics takes the minimal approach of just documenting the divergences and leaving it up to the user to decide what to do about it.
<Shinmera>
So I suppose a more high-level library that gives consistent results in cases such as atomic-incf would be useful.
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<shka_>
is sbcls sprof uses some sort of reservoir sampling?
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<beach>
phoe: I see absolutely no action. Is that normal?
<phoe>
beach: no action? The clock should move
<phoe>
If not, try to Ctrl+F5
<beach>
I see no clock.
<phoe>
Refresh, then!
<beach>
Ah, that's better.
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<contrapunctus>
Trying to install Quicklisp. Ran the first three commands on https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ (the two curls and the gpg), but the last one says "gpg: Signature made Thu Jan 29 02:43:26 2015 IST gpg: using RSA key 307965AB028B5FF7 gpg: Can't check signature: No public key"
<contrapunctus>
What gives? Is it safe to proceed? 🤔
<phoe>
maybe Xach will help!
<shinohai>
contrapunctus: didja add their key to your keyring first?
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<contrapunctus>
shinohai: I hadn't, thanks!
<shinohai>
np!
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<contrapunctus>
Oh boy...`(quicklisp-quickstart:install)` says "Quicklisp has already been installed.", but something like `(ql:quickload "scriptl")` says "Package QL does not exist." 😔
<lonjil>
ck__: hello. I saw that you implemented the Ryuu algorithm last year. Do you have the code somewhere and could I use it for the SICL printer?
<contrapunctus>
phoe: awesome, thanks! \o/
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<adlai>
contrapunctus: it is not safe to proceed, all tarballs are unsigned. at least the code that downloads them isn't!
<contrapunctus>
adlai: 😏
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<contrapunctus>
Le sigh, another roadblock. (ql:quickload "scriptl") proceeds, but now I get what looks like a C++ compilation error. http://ix.io/2peS/text
<adlai>
you asked "What gives?", after pasting gpg output instead of reading what gpg told you. This says to me that you should not give a fuck about the gpg output, even if you understand English, although maybe I'm just a pessimist.
<ralt>
contrapunctus: dnf install libfixposix
<ralt>
or libfixposix-dev/libfixposix-devel depending on your distro
<adlai>
at least the roadblocks are full of helpful friendlies, this'll go just fine.
<phoe>
easye: beach: thanks a lot for today's meeting!
<contrapunctus>
ralt: thanks, that seems to have fixed it :)
<contrapunctus>
adlai: I'm sorry, I don't understand the first thing about GPG. Granted, I do wish I had searched for that one, because retrospectively the results turned out to be something I could have worked from.
<_death>
contrapunctus: you need to install libfixposix
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<adlai>
it's basically a really swanky checksum
<_death>
oh, missed ralt's remarks
<contrapunctus>
_death: thanks, I did that and it's fixed ^^
<adlai>
if you end up using quicklisp's bundles for distributing your application's libraries, then you might find it worthwhile to learn more about GPG, depending on what your application is and who uses it.
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<adlai>
thank you for making the recorded talks available, phoe, for those who couldn't arrive on time at the terminal :)
<phoe>
<3
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<matzy_>
so asdf is kinda confusing me right now. i have asdf version 3.3.1 (so the latest) which, according to what I'm reading online should automatically look in the ~/common-lisp folder, so does that mean I should symlink all my projects to that folder?
<phoe>
> so the latest
<phoe>
well, it's not the latest, but that's nto really the point
<phoe>
matzy_: do you use Quicklisp?
<jmercouris>
matzy_: it is not necessary to symlink to that folder
<matzy_>
yeah i have quicklisp installed
<jmercouris>
make a file located at ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf
<matzy_>
ok one sec
<jmercouris>
in this file put a statement like (:tree "/path/to/some/dir"), and then ASDF will look recusrively in that directory
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<phoe>
matzy_: you don't need to use ~/common-lisp/ then
<jmercouris>
s/recusrively/recursively
<phoe>
you can put your projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
<matzy_>
ah ok, i just need to update that file with new repos then
<phoe>
Quicklisp automatically instructs ASDF to look there
<jmercouris>
you can also use symlink to your :tree directory if you wish
<phoe>
or configure ASDF the way jmercouris says
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<matzy_>
what would be best for a docker image?
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<matzy_>
*be the best approach
<jmercouris>
that is hard to say
<matzy_>
maybe phoe's approach, because then because you don't have to do any additional config
<matzy_>
just make sure the quicklisp/local-projects folder exists on the container and asdf should load from there, right?
<jmercouris>
correct
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<matzy_>
cool, thanks for the help
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<jmercouris>
no problem :-)
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<SpaceIgor2075>
Hello! What is the conventional way to organise a CL project? How do I organize files and stuff
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<phoe>
SpaceIgor2075: ASDF system
<phoe>
do you use Quicklisp?
<phoe>
if yes, (ql:quickload :quickproject) (quickproject:make-project #p"~/quicklisp/local-projects/my-new-awesome-project/")
<phoe>
then (ql:quickload :my-new-awesome-project)
<phoe>
and bam, you have a skeleton ready
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<SpaceIgor2075>
Thanks
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<adlai>
SpaceIgor2075: also, think of the children, specifically, the ones who read code sequentially, and start distrusting their own minds when you use functions that you define further towards the end of the file
<adlai>
quicklisp's source is actually quite good with sequential forms.
<adlai>
not perfect, but ... quite good!
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<matzy_>
phoe that's really awesome, thanks for that adbice
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<matzy_>
*advice
<matzy_>
my question is though, what if you want a lisp api with a different language as the front-end (in this case, typescript/react)
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<matzy_>
back to symlinks? it sucks because that's such a modern and elegant solution, what you put above
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<phoe>
matzy_: hmmmm
<phoe>
what do you mean, different language as the front-end?
<phoe>
if you have a monorepo with Lisp and JS mixed in, then ASDF/Quicklisp will only care about Lisp files - or, to be precise, about .asd files found in the directory tree
<phoe>
so you can have ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/server/ that has Lisp code and ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/client/ that has JS or whatever
<phoe>
Quicklisp and ASDF will only are about the former and it will only find and load the former
<adlai>
matzy_ is probably trying to deliver a library instead of a program.
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<adlai>
matzy_ also just vanished, moments after getting highlighted. "IRC", sigh the old folks, "just goes to show you never can help."
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<matzy_>
sorry i got disconnected somehow, i have a full stack with a typescript/react front-end being managed by npm and a hunchentoot server back-end (with easy-routes for route handling and jonathan for json handling)
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<matzy_>
*a full stack web app. but anyway here's a link to the repo if anyone has time to take a look at the api/a general strategy of how i would get this to work with asdf or quicklisp, that would be awesome
<phoe>
matzy_: hmmmm
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<phoe>
do you have a separate repo for the Lisp backend?
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<phoe>
because you could perhaps symlink just the Lisp directory to local-projects
<matzy_>
though i guess i can just let quicklisp compile and run (server starts in main.lisp), and then run the react side with npm
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<phoe>
like, the dir containing the ASDF system and Lisp code
<matzy_>
phoe i was thinking symlink is prob my best choice here
<matzy_>
BUT i want to eventually put these in docker containers and deploy to AWS
<matzy_>
so maybe it makes sense to separate the repos? i'm new to docker
<phoe>
no idea; playing with git repos is a fairly fluid thing, lots of organizations do multiple smaller repositories and lots of organizations go for massive monorepos that contain everything
<phoe>
I'm not going to be good advice on that
<matzy_>
no worries, i'm kinda in the same boat. one other question, do you have to start sbcl from the directory you want asdf to make?
<phoe>
no
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<matzy_>
and same with quicklisp?
<phoe>
what do you mean, quicklisp?
<phoe>
if you have your init file set up properly, then Quicklisp is already loaded when you run SBCL
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<phoe>
and your ASDF is configured to be able to load Quicklisp-provided systems
<matzy_>
how you were telling my i could replace asdf:load-system or asdf:make with quicklisp
<phoe>
it's possible to replace asdf:load-system by ql:quickload
<phoe>
asdf:make is not replaceable by Quicklisp
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<phoe>
ASDF is the tool for loading and managing Lisp systems; Quicklisp is a tool that auto-downloads Lisp stuff from the internet and makes it available for ASDF to download
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<matzy_>
ok so asdf make actually compiles lisp programs then? i get what quicklisp does
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<matzy_>
though the whole loading/compiling thing seems a bit abstract to me, and I know C
<phoe>
that you can run and they should Just Work™
<matzy_>
like a C binary?
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<phoe>
kind of, yes
<phoe>
like an executable for a given OS
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<matzy_>
ok, that makes sense
<matzy_>
and (ql:quickload) and (asdf:load-system) just make (if not there) or load an already-existing system for that sbcl session
<phoe>
if you want to see a trivial project, you can take a look at https://github.com/phoe-trash/furcadia-post-splitter/ - this has Deploy configured with Travis in order to produce nightly binaries on each commit
<phoe>
...and, oh boy, the release section there is a mess; I gotta clean that up
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<phoe>
......someday
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<matzy_>
hmmm you're using some things i was looking into last night but got cofused about
<phoe>
such as?
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<matzy_>
this will produce an actual binary, won't it?
<phoe>
yes, it will
<phoe>
or rather
<phoe>
it will produce a directory with an executable plus the required foreign libraries
<matzy_>
so first off, what is `:defsystem-depends-on (:qtools)`
<matzy_>
all defsystems depends on that?
<phoe>
oh right! one second
<phoe>
this tells ASDF that it needs to load Qtools before defining this system
<matzy_>
and then what do each of these values actually represent: :build-operation "qt-program-op" :build-pathname "raptor-splitter" :entry-point "furcadia-post-splitter:main"
<matzy_>
i assume :entry-point is the local repo for compilation
<phoe>
build-operation tells ASDF which function to actually call when asdf:make is called
<phoe>
:build-pathname tells ASDF to dump all the generated files in directory "raptor-splitter" relative to the repo
<phoe>
so that would be like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/furcadia-post-splitter/raptor-splitter/*
<phoe>
:entry-point is the function that is called when the resulting binary starts up
<fe[nl]ix>
Shinmera: cl-atomics is more similar to what I want, but that's already what I've started to do for B-T
<matzy_>
awesome. thanks for the clear explanations
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<matzy_>
i'm assuming :qt-program-op is part of :qtools or :qtcore?
<phoe>
:qtcore and :qtgui are parts of Qt that are used in this program
<matzy_>
awesome :)
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<matzy_>
so would you move my full-stack app into two repos, or will it not matter when i have it running on two separate docker containers
<phoe>
if you have two separate containers then I guess two repos would make some more sense
<phoe>
this way you only clone what you need to each repository.
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<phoe>
and you have a clear separation between frontend that runs on npm or whatever and backend which runs on hunchentoot or whatever.
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<matzy_>
yeah i guess that does make more sense. it just looks more organized as a single repo, though maybe i'm still stuck in the "one-repo-perproject" mindset
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<phoe>
how big is the source code?
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<phoe>
if the total repo size is megabytes, then cloning everything on both instances won't matter in practice
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<matzy_>
its tiny
<phoe>
so, later on, if it turns out to swell, you can always split the stuff
<matzy_>
i already just went and split it up
<matzy_>
figured it would make the docker files easier, esp since this is my first time with docker
<matzy_>
so i have a lot to learn to get that running with this
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<matzy_>
i do have a larger project though and i'm wondering if i should split that
<matzy_>
freak react and material-ui alone bring in so many dependencies
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<matzy_>
phoe if you're still here, i got disconnected before and forget your answer - to make a system via quicklsp, does it need to reside in the __jrjsmrtn'~/quicklisp/local-projects/" directory?
<phoe>
matzy_: that is the easiest way
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<Hael>
Hi, i have a noob question about scheme, iam reading SICP and i was wondering if it is possible (i mean there is a library or something) to use scheme for backend web development?
<phoe>
Hael: #scheme
<phoe>
you have wandered into a den of Common Lisp users
<Hael>
Oh sorry iam new to this
<matzy_>
wow phoe you're right that was easy
<phoe>
but I guess it can be used for backend stuff, sure!
<matzy_>
holy shit
<phoe>
Hael: might want to try #racket too - racket has a lot of webdev stuff.
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<matzy_>
racket kinda sucks though
<matzy_>
i originally started there
<matzy_>
cl is harder, but has so much more to it
<Hael>
I saw some people recommending racket too, anyway thx for the help!
<phoe>
Hael: #lisp might not be a good place to ask for whether Racket is a good starting point
<phoe>
IMO the best thing would be to try Racket, perhaps try webdev in other Lisp dialects, and figure out where your heart and mind tug you the strongest
<matzy_>
i still can;t believe how easy that was. i've been using all these different asdf methods for days and kept running into weird problems
<phoe>
matzy_: such is the magic of having a fellow human help you!
<matzy_>
you are the bomb!
<phoe>
that's why #lisp exists, along with a ton of other channels
<phoe>
have you tried #lispweb? there were some people in there some time ago
<matzy_>
it's honestly such a great channel
<phoe>
<3
<matzy_>
no but i am now!
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<matzy_>
now i need to figure out how to dockerize this thing
<matzy_>
but i have actual work to do so i guess i'll leave that till later :(
<matzy_>
translating coldfusion to php is not nearly as fun as messing around with cl api;s
<matzy_>
*api's
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<dlowe>
Feel free to discuss lisp comparisons in ##lisp
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<pve>
If I subclass an ASDF component ("module" in this case), does the symbol of the subclass also need to be in the ASDF package?
<phoe>
pve: AFAIK not
<pve>
because the package for the subclass doesn't exist when the asd file is parsed, and I'm not sure if it's ok anymore to put random code into asd-files
<pve>
I mean if I can throw a defpackage into the asd-file then that would work, but I get the impression that asd files are supposed to be "clean" now
<phoe>
:defsystem-depends-on
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<pve>
but it's all inside the same defsystem form, so I don't really understand how that would let me put ... :components ((my-system:my-module-subclass "module-name")) ... in there
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<pve>
hmm I wonder if two defsystem forms in the file would work.. one dummy system with :defsystem-depends-on followed by the real system
<pve>
the asdf manual talks about this, but I'm not sure I understand what it's saying
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<ArthurStrong>
Hi all! What would you recommend to read about lambda calculus? Aside of SICP?
<Bike>
in what context? lambda calculus is essentially a tool. what would you like to apply it to?
<ArthurStrong>
Bike: just want to start somewhere. As a noob.
<Bike>
so like, computability theory maybe?
<ArthurStrong>
Bike: maybe...
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<spoeplau>
ArthurStrong: "Types and Programming Languages" by Pierce has something on the untyped lambda calculus before going into type systems for it
<ArthurStrong>
spoeplau: thanks!
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