p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<Oladon> vegai: Yeah, Quicklisp supports the concept
<z3t0> Does anyone here hack around with lisp on any mobile devices?
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<Oladon> I used to use it on a Zaurus, does that count? Oh, and a Palm Pilot.
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<z3t0> that's cool! especially the palm pilot actually
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<z3t0> Did the pilot have apis for drawing? Or how did you handle that?
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<Oladon> Drawing? You just typed your code...
<Oladon> Don't tell the channel, but I believe it was a Scheme variant. ;)
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<ldb> good morning everyone
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<z3t0> Oladon: Oh. I noticed it had a pen/stylus? I thought it would support drawing lines and what
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<Oladon> Oh, maybe. Don't recall doing any drawing in Lisp specifically, but it had a pretty spiffy handwriting recognition system
<Oladon> ldb: Morning!
<z3t0> thats neat! I'm trying to do a survey of gui tooklits. What I'd like to write is an application that runs on linux and has support for touch paradigms. I also plan to hack together a handwriting component. So far I'm looking into ltk - wondering if it's easy to write custom components there.
<z3t0> I want to avoid qt for now since its a much larger dependency and I don't plan to use much of what it offers
<z3t0> ldb: morning :D
<Oladon> Haven't used LTK, sorry :)
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<ldb> is there any linux distro already having touch screen support?
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<ldb> other than Andriod, if that is considered as a linux distro
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<akoana> well gnome3 (available on many distros) should support touch screen well
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<ldb> akoana: thank you
<akoana> same for KDE Plasma (so Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu ... all the "main" distros)
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<Oladon> beach: Morning!
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<flip214> When I use (MERGE-PATHNAMES *dir* "some/filename.ext"), can I specify *DIR* in a way that the "filename.ext" is removed from the result?
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<scymtym> does (merge-pathnames *dir* (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory "some/filename.ext"))) work?
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<flip214> scymtym: yeah, but I hoped for some change in the config only (modifying *dir*)... ;)
<flip214> thanks!
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<scymtym> you could surround the result with (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :version nil :defaults RESULT)
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<Posterdati> hi
<Posterdati> seems that even ecl does not work with gsll on OpenBSD :(
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<phoe> annnnd we're on HN frontpage https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525
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<beach> Congratulations!
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<eta> phoe, oh crap you're writing a book?
* eta just saw that on HN
<eta> yay more lisp content!
<phoe> eta: well, I did write one
<eta> :o
<eta> which
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<beach> He means that it is done.
<phoe> ^
<eta> oh I see
* eta nod
<phoe> it's done, written, in typesetting now
<eta> makes sense
<eta> well, I mean, the last lisp books I read were land of lisp and the weitz one
<eta> so it'll be nice to read something new!
<shka_> phoe: have written
<phoe> shka_: thanks
<shka_> you are welcome
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<jmercouris> hello everyone
<beach> Hello jmercouris.
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<jmercouris> :-)
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<phoe> heyyyyy
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<theosvoitha> Hello Is it worth to learn Emacs Lisp?
<phoe> theosvoitha: well
<phoe> you landed in a place full of Common Lisp programmers
<phoe> so we can certainly tell you that it is worth to learn Common Lisp
<phoe> but #emacs might be a better place for your original question
<theosvoitha> okay thanks phoe.
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<theosvoitha> They clearly asked me to learn other lisps (Other than emacs lisp_
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<beach> They?
<theosvoitha> #emacs
<beach> Ah.
<phoe> well then! you landed in a right place
<beach> Then Common Lisp is a good choice.
<theosvoitha> ha ha. so guide me.
<theosvoitha> i mean what can i do..
<jackdaniel> minion: tell theosvoitha about pcl
<minion> theosvoitha: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel> minion: tell theosvoitha about paip
<minion> theosvoitha: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<jackdaniel> minion: tell theosvoitha about portacle
<minion> theosvoitha: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
<jackdaniel> minion: thank you
<minion> you're welcome
<jackdaniel> feel guided
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* jackdaniel makes some weird movements with his hand
<theosvoitha> thanks jackdaniel minion.
<beach> theosvoitha: For newbie questions, there is help in #clschool too.
<theosvoitha> thanks beach
<beach> Sure.
<theosvoitha> I guess now i need to find some replacement for GNU emacs.
<jackdaniel> most people who work with open source common lisp implementations use gnu emacs
<jackdaniel> see portacle
<jackdaniel> which is emacs with batties included
<jackdaniel> batteries
<theosvoitha> Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp
<beach> Sort of. It is a collection of components.
<beach> Emacs is one component.
<beach> SBCL is the Common Lisp implementation component.
<beach> SLIME is another component.
<theosvoitha> downloading
<theosvoitha> If you guys do not mind, can you suggest me some GNU Emacs alternative now.
<phoe> emacs
<beach> Why do you want an alternative?
<phoe> it takes a while to get used to, but slime/sly are the best choices for developing lisp stuff.
<phoe> there also exists SLIMA for Atom - it seems to be getting somewhat good
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<phoe> and also slimv/vlime for VIM
<theosvoitha> Because i was told at #emacs that you need to learn Emacs lisp to use it properly. But they also say that better learn other Lisps
<beach> NOOOOO
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<theosvoitha> oops
<beach> theosvoitha: When you use GNU Emacs with Common Lisp, you don't need to know anything about Emacs Lisp.
<beach> Or very little.
<phoe> ^
* jasom never learned emacs lisp
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<bitmapper> and by the time you learn common lisp you'll know most of emacs lisp anyway
<phoe> there exist emacs distributions like spacemacs that bundle a lot of software, including slime/sly - you can use those to avoid writing your own emacs configuration files
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<bitmapper> because emacs lisp ⊆ common lisp
<jasom> I guess I learned enough to be able to put things like (enable-foo) in my init.el but that's mostly treating it like a configuration format, not a programming language
<bitmapper> in a sense
<theosvoitha> bitmapper: beach This cleared the stuff.
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<theosvoitha> I tried spacemacs for Windows but it needs some workaround.
<_death> actually elisp is a much larger language than CL
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<theosvoitha> thanks to all you guys for all openness and help!!
<beach> Pleasure. Good luck!
<xristos> _death: how so?
<_death> xristos: you need to learn about buffers, windows, etc.
<xristos> but these concepts are really Emacs models, not Emacs Lisp
<xristos> you could throw CLIM in with the CL spec and get a similar inflation
<phoe> but they're an official™ part of elisp
<xristos> the core language is much much smaller than CL
<phoe> *this* is the core language
<xristos> it really isn't
<phoe> of course that one can carve out a subset that doesn't deal with buffers or windows or all the emacsisms stuffed in there
<_death> if CLIM were part of the Common Lisp specification... anyway, I know what you mean, and now you know what I meant..
<phoe> but puritans will then start whining that it isn't elisp anymore, and if you know just that tiny subset then you don't really know lisp.
<phoe> s/know lisp/know elisp/
<xristos> can you separate the Emacs models from Emacs Lisp and still have a coherent, useful language?
<xristos> for me the answer is yes
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<phoe> is that language still elisp?
<xristos> if the answer was no, i'd agree with both of you
<phoe> that's the troublesome question
<xristos> phoe: Guile thinks so
<_death> elisp doesn't have a standard, and so the language grows (or shrinks) with almost every change of the manual
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<phoe> Guile thinks so to the point where its "elisp" still cannot be used to run most of emacs code though
<phoe> but then again, we're diving into nomenclature here
<phoe> and what really can be named "elisp"
<phoe> I don't think it's fruitful to continue this particular discussion :D
<theosvoitha> Is there any Lisp IRC Client I can use and learn to hack?
<jackdaniel> beirc, but it has quite a few issues
<phoe> birch, trivial-irc
<xristos> theosvoitha: rcirc in Emacs
<jackdaniel> there is also a library to sue irc from repl
<theosvoitha> xristos: I will try that
<beach> xristos: I think we agreed that theosvoitha wanted something other than Emacs Lisp.
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<xristos> if you did, i missed it
<jackdaniel> real lisp programmers have a hardware keyboards with two keys: #\( and #\), you program in binary code for your processor, but having parenthesis instead of 0 and 1 is a nice touch ;)
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<jackdaniel> (here is a prototype of the keyboard with wrong keys)
<phoe> you obviously mean this lisp dialect
<theosvoitha> I am running Portable. At it's bottom something called 'polling' is like increasing in number each second.
<theosvoitha> *Portacle
<phoe> theosvoitha: hmm, so it's trying to run Common Lisp
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<phoe> what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say?
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<theosvoitha> 289 78%
<phoe> no no, I mean the contents - can you give us a screenshot?
<theosvoitha> yeah. l fear say i do not know some website to share.
<theosvoitha> let me google
<phoe> imgur.com
<phoe> oh snap
<phoe> that's a Windows exception that happened for whatever bloody reason
<theosvoitha> oh
<phoe> 1722 is 0x000006BA... huh
<phoe> I have no idea what is going on in there
<theosvoitha> ok
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<jackdaniel> does it try to open the port 0 for slime connection?
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<theosvoitha> jackdaniel: really i do not know how to check that
<jackdaniel> me neither, just guessing
<jackdaniel> I'm not portacle user myself, so I can't tell
<theosvoitha> WARNING: the Windows port is fragile, particularly for multithreaded
<theosvoitha> code. Unfortunately, the development team currently lacks the time
<theosvoitha> and resources this platform demands.
<jackdaniel> in the inferior lisp buffer press "1", then "enter", and then 8089 (and enter)
<phoe> does this thing also happen if you download SBCL yourself and try to run it?
<jackdaniel> you may also try demo version of the lispworks product
<theosvoitha> redefining EMACS-INSPECT (#<SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS COMMON-LISP:T>) in DEFMETHOD
<theosvoitha>
<theosvoitha> debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread
<theosvoitha> #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10010C0523}>:
<theosvoitha> An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722)
<phoe> yes, that's the error from the screenshot
<theosvoitha> phoe i never tried SBCL
<theosvoitha> i just want a platform to learn CL. With text editor to work on daily files.
<phoe> you might have chosen a wrong language for that
<phoe> CL is an interactive language, which means that it needs some support from the text editor
<phoe> the editor needs to be able to connect to the running Lisp and send commands to it and receive commands from it
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<phoe> that's what slime/sly does for emacs.
<_death> you can try entering 0 to continue.. is F a network drive?
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<theosvoitha> let me try unzipping again
<_death> maybe to a path without space characters..
<theosvoitha> yes _death
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<theosvoitha> same thing...
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<_death> what happens if you continue?
<theosvoitha> restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
<theosvoitha> 0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler
<theosvoitha> 2: [ABORT ] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
<theosvoitha> 1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 1
<theosvoitha> i try 1
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<theosvoitha> but it returns back to the same screen
<_death> oh.. yes, it should use a different port..
<theosvoitha> Enter port (defaults to 2):
<theosvoitha> which port should i enter
<_death> say 6000
<theosvoitha> same thing
<theosvoitha> same screen appears
<theosvoitha> debugger invoked on a SB-WIN32:EXCEPTION in thread
<theosvoitha> #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10010C0523}>:
<theosvoitha> restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
<theosvoitha>
<theosvoitha>
<theosvoitha> An exception occurred in context #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022CEE0): #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0022DD80). (Exception code: 1722)
<theosvoitha> Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL.
<theosvoitha> 0: [CONTINUE ] Return from the exception handler
<theosvoitha> 1: [USE-VALUE] Try a port other than 6000
<theosvoitha> 2: [ABORT ] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
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<phoe> Windows throws up for whatever reason
<phoe> that restart is IMO a false flag
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<_death> you can type :backtrace and paste the result (in a site like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ )
<theosvoitha> okay thanks a lot all guys. it was really a warm welcome here. I will keep idling here. I guess i asked too simple questions. next time i will ask in #clschool
<phoe> theosvoitha: that isn't simple
<phoe> I hoped that Portacle worked well on Windows
<phoe> and still Windows finds its way to raise weird exceptions that I never would expect
<theosvoitha> phoe: is there any way to use it elsewhere
<phoe> theosvoitha: I'm about to suggest installing linux
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<theosvoitha> i have some job software which i can't run in windows
<theosvoitha> *can't run in linux
<_death> theosvoitha: it looks like emacs and sbcl work.. you just get an error for some reason which is yet to be determined
<theosvoitha> _death: do i really need to bother about this error. can't i go further and learn at least the basics and use emacs
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<theosvoitha> afterall i can't go deep very soon
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<_death> theosvoitha: well, you can just run sbcl and use that.. and you can run it from a shell within emacs.. but to get a good experience you need slime (which connects the two and provides the typical development environment) to work
<theosvoitha> _death: okay let me learn whatever i have. who knows it may get fixed in future.
<_death> theosvoitha: if you follow my previous instruction (type :backtrace and paste the result) you may get further help there
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<_death> theosvoitha: if you just want to play with emacs lisp, you can also type M-x ielm RET (that's alt x, ielm, enter) to get an elisp toplevel
<theosvoitha> _death: I guess i will attempt tomorrow. its too late here. i have saved all instructions.
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<_death> theosvoitha: also you may ask on #shirakumo (where the author of Portacle dwells) about it or post a Portacle issue.. though the answer may be the same (give a backtrace)
<phoe> first get a backtrace
<phoe> and then post an issue on the github repo
<phoe> stuff the backtrace in there.
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<theosvoitha> I will try a backtrace tomorrow and will share backtrace.
<theosvoitha> Better not attempt at #shirakumo
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<theosvoitha> thanks everyone for this warm welcome. thanks phoe _death beach and all.
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<puchacz> hi, has anybody used foil to communicate with Java?
<puchacz> 2005 not good, author: Rich Hickey: good.
<puchacz> I wonder if it is usable in long running servers, i.e. no memory leaks, knows when to drop objects from caches etc.
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<phoe> okay, I think the HN discussion about the book is now done; the article fell off the frontpage
<phoe> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23843525 if anyone'd like to have a read, I'll run off and take a walk now
<xristos> puchacz: ABCL seems like a better bet
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<XachX> phoe: cheers for a readable thread despite predicable “objections”
<puchacz> xristos: but I don't want to have the whole application in ABCL
<puchacz> I have the application in SBCL
<puchacz> or you mean just have small stub with ABCL and say hunchentoot on Java side?
<_death> some months ago I played an hour or two with py4j, writing some lisp to play the part of py.. that approach didn't seem too time-consuming, though I had no use for it
<puchacz> death: googling py4j, related to my Java question?
<_death> puchacz: yes.. it allows limited interoperation.. I think I played with it because spark used it
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<puchacz> I know how to access java from ABCL and I did a lot of it
<puchacz> so writing hunchentoot handler in ABCL on Java side to allow SBCL application to call into would work.
<puchacz> but maybe it is an overkill
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<puchacz> thanks, so I would have to run Java part of py4j.
<puchacz> ok :)
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<_death> feel free to create a complete library out of that hack ;)
<puchacz> cheers :)
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<puchacz> death, if you are still here, Foil looks usable - if you ever need it
<puchacz> I have not started it yet, just staring at Java code
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<dra> Hi. I'm using Emacs + SLIME + Paredit. When editing Lisp files DEL/<backspace> is bound to paredit-backward-delete. In the REPL however it's bound to backward-delete-char-untabify. This breaks paren balancing. Here's the relevant part of my SLIME config: https://paste.debian.net/1156557/
<dra> Any ideas?
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<phoe> XachX: I know right
<phoe> I actually found the objections to be surprisingly pleasant
<puchacz> phoe: your book is still not available, is it?
<puchacz> as ebook
<phoe> I got several bugfix ideas for the book and - Apress will kill me - an idea for a new chapter
<phoe> puchacz: yes, it only went to production now.
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<puchacz> ok, tks
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<dra> phoe: I read about your book on Hacker News. Looking forward to it!
<phoe> dra: <3
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