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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<vegai>
morning
<vegai>
!
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<beach>
Hello vegai.
<beach>
vegai: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<vegai>
somewhat yes, I've lurked before as well
<beach>
I see. Welcome! What brings you to #lisp?
<vegai>
the search for the perfect programming language, of course :P
<beach>
Look no further! :)
<vegai>
or the neverending quest, perhaps
<aeth>
Well, you can always write your own. The closer your syntax is to CL's, the easier it is to write it in CL.
<aeth>
If it's almost entirely compatible, you can just use macros.
<beach>
vegai: So is the plan to learn enough Common Lisp to tell whether you can stop searching?
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<vegai>
beach: yes, roughly so
<beach>
Sounds good.
<aeth>
vegai: what features are you looking for?
<aeth>
People have done everything from webdev to gamedev so there's quite the range of projects
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<vegai>
well, my checklist reads like it was made for cl
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<vegai>
strong repl/dynamic programming; static types (optional or not); performance; stability; non-ambiguous syntax; standard with more than 1 implementation
<beach>
Perfect!
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<vegai>
I don't actually know if cl has non-ambiguous syntax
<beach>
That depends on what you mean by that term.
<vegai>
it's a simple wish: I just want a deterministic formatter for my code
<beach>
But I think it is non-ambiguous.
<vegai>
I program a lot of python, where that's a bit of a problem
<vegai>
not a huge problem in practice actually, but still
<beach>
The surface syntax is trivial, but can become more complicated with reader macros.
<beach>
Then there is a second-level syntax on S-expressions in memory.
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<beach>
The second-level syntax is defined by the special operators.
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<seok>
Hi guys!
<beach>
Hello seok.
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<seok>
Hi professor
<seok>
this isn't lisp related, but how would I scan my local ports to see which ports are being used by applications?
<flip214_>
seok: "netstat -antp | grep LISTEN", or nmap
<flip214_>
seok: but if you use 0 as port number, the kernel will allocate an available one for you
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<beach>
vegai: The Common Lisp language exposes the structure of the internal representation of code. In most languages, that structure would be internal to the compiler, and different for each compiler. As a consequence, the Common Lisp special operators (corresponding to fixed syntactic constructs in other languages, like loops, assignments, conditionals, etc.) is defined in terms of what goes where in the list that represent the
<beach>
S-expression.
<seok>
hm
<seok>
netstat -antp doesn't show anything for me
<seok>
I'm pretty sure I have some databases running
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<flip214>
seok: what OS are you on?
<flip214>
windows doesn't like -p, it's "netstat -anto" there IIRC
<flip214>
don't know about the *BSDs or MacOS
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<praiseallah88>
sun is not doing Allah is doing to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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<Harag>
am I right in assuming that when *print-readably* = t that the object written is not necessarily readble by a different "implementation"
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<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
it is supposed to be readable back by the same version of the same implementation
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<Harag>
thanx phoe
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<Harag>
is it acceptable to add something to *features* for your own packages? It looks like it because I can see stuff like ALEXANDRIA::SEQUENCE-EMPTYP in there.
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<phoe>
Harag: yes
<phoe>
then you do stuff like #+foo::bar
<phoe>
normally *FEATURES* are full of keywords, but there's only this many keywords available; this, and you might want to not export that feature symbol for whatever reason
<Harag>
got it
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<clintm>
If I have two structs both with a slot of the same name, and I call the slot accessor function from one on an instance of the other, that's supposed to be a type error, right? If so, does allegro really just return nil?
<beach>
Why would it be a type error?
<clintm>
I tested it in a bare alisp repl, but I'd like cofirmation before I plant a proverbial flag in the sand and say "this is bad and we shouldn't do it" at work.
<flip214>
clintm: for classes there's the generic function and methods framework. for structures the structure name is prepended for accessor names to avoid such conflicts.
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<clintm>
beach: because it's two different types, at least that's what I assumed. (defstruct a id) (defstruct b id) (a-id (make-b)) -> nil. Should that really be nil? On LW it's a type error.
<beach>
Oh, type error because you are giving it a struct of a different type. Got it.
<clintm>
I mean, I assumed it would be a type error.
<beach>
It might just be undefined behavior.
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<lieven>
is safety at the highest setting?
<beach>
Structs are designed to be fast. It wouldn't surprise me if the accessor does nothing other than access an element with a particular index.
<clintm>
lieven: Oh, I didn't try that.
<clintm>
Same :(
<beach>
Structs are weird. I strongly suggest you use standard classes instead.
<clintm>
At least with debug and safety 3
<flip214>
clintm: on SBCL I get The value #S(B :ID NIL) is not of type COMMON-LISP-USER::A
<lieven>
an implementation is certainly allowed to carp but I don't think it's required
<clintm>
flip214: That's what I got with LW as well.
<clintm>
Hrm, maybe if I scour the allegro docs I can find a way to turn it on even if just during testing and development. Thanks for the info, everyone!
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<Harag>
is there a "prefered" "portable" pretty printing library out there that deals with writing the likes of clos objects and hashtables as readable, even if it is just readable by itself
<phoe>
I have phoe-toolbox:print-hash-table-readably for hash tables
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<phoe>
and also possibly phoe-toolbox:print-instance-readably that tries to be DWIMmy in what it does
<phoe>
and therefore can miserably fail if one doesn't know what they're doing
<phoe>
dunno then, grab the most popular quicklisp systems or something
<phoe>
hard to say ahead of time
<dim>
save-lisp-and-die at build time to the rescue, then you have a docker container with an “augmented” SBCL image in there
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<|3b|>
so maybe just skip QL stuff in the base, and put it in the sample app
<phoe>
generally useful stuff like alexandria, serapeum, closer-mop, split-sequence, esrap, cl-ppcre, babel, flexi-streams, fast-io or what else
<phoe>
oooh or that
<|3b|>
yeah, probably preinstall stuff like that
<|3b|>
(sample needs enough to do an HTTP request anyway, so would probably have a bunch of those)
<dim>
drakma and all build dependencies, and the other http clients too, and puri, and html/xml parsers, and esrap, the short list isn't that short
<phoe>
oh and your favorite http clients, yes
<dim>
hell, I would use pgloader as a proxy to install many dependencies ;-)
* dim
was not a fan of having to package 60+ CL libs for debian to allow for having pgloader there
<phoe>
:D
<|3b|>
phoe: any idea if there is any benefits between daewok/docker-sbcl/ vs fukamachi/sbcl/ docker containers?
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<phoe>
|3b|: no idea
<|3b|>
looks like latter might have roswell/ql already installed, former might have more choice of OS/arch (not sure that matters for this though)
<phoe>
other than for my natural distrust for fukamachiware
<|3b|>
:)
<dim>
one thing I would try with them is doing some SSL stuff or other things you might want to do that require loading a .so file ; it's surprisingly non trivial to make that work reliably, and you certainly want that solved in the docker container
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<BACKQUOTED-LIST>
has anybody here ever used lisp tkinter?
<phoe>
what's tkinter?
<BACKQUOTED-LIST>
toolkit for gui
<phoe>
it seems to be a Python thing
<BACKQUOTED-LIST>
theres tkinter for common lisp tho