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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Oladon>
Morning, beach!
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<KaiLikesLinux>
Lots of joins and leaves today
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<beach>
KaiLikesLinux: I am guessing that is because there are a lot of participants. Statistically, that would imply more joins and leaves.
<beach>
KaiLikesLinux: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<KaiLikesLinux>
beach: It makes sense, but still, and yes I am brand new
<beach>
Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp?
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<KaiLikesLinux>
I am a fan of lisp languages (Clojure and Common Lisp are my favorites), and am currently developing a Lisp inspired Markup language that translates into HTML
<beach>
I see.
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<KaiLikesLinux>
Yeah, I need to learn Common again, lost that knowledge out of just not practicing, but I will get back on it
<beach>
Sounds good. Do you develop this thing in order to practice, or is it meant to be useful? I am asking because I believe there are already some markup systems based on Common Lisp out there.
<KaiLikesLinux>
It is meant to be useful. This one is directly for websites, because I got sick of HTML. It is also supposed to make sense, and maybe add things like variables on HTML. I also want to make a scripting language for it, plus a CSS framework for it. A lot of it is inspired by PugJS too
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<beach>
The web is not one of my domains of expertise, but it does sound very fancy.
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<KaiLikesLinux>
it isn't. It is so easy I made my MEML project (lisp markup for web) a transpiler, not even a compiler to HTML code
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<phoe>
KaiLikesLinux: hey hi
<phoe>
AFAIK there already are such projects, CL-WHO and others - you can take a look at them for inspiration
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<KaiLikesLinux>
phoe: Thank you, and will go
<KaiLikesLinux>
will do*
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<KaiLikesLinux>
Welcome Joels and PVE
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<KaiLikesLinux>
hello zaquest
<zaquest>
hello
<beach>
KaiLikesLinux: It is not going to be useful to greet anyone that joins. It will just create a lot of noise.
<KaiLikesLinux>
beach: ah, sorry
<KaiLikesLinux>
I am still too used to the flow of discord and telegram
<beach>
I usually greet people who announce their arrival. That way, I know they are not just lurkers.
<KaiLikesLinux>
fair
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<contrapunctus>
Does anyone know of an s-expression alternative to MusicXML?
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<joels>
Good morning
<KaiLikesLinux>
Good mornin!
<phoe>
KaiLikesLinux: I personally mute joins and parts, since they're tons of noise
<phoe>
if someone is offline and I want to leave them a message, there's a bot over here that provides memo functionality
<phoe>
minion: memo for KaiLikesLinux: like that, for instance
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell KaiLikesLinux when he/she/it next speaks.
<phoe>
otherwise, typing e.g. "Good morning everyone!" is a good way to let everyone know that you greet and would like to be greeted
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<phoe>
at least around here, I think that greeting random people would most likely mean that you require something from them - at least that's how I'd feel if I got a random "hello" from a person I don't recognize
<contrapunctus>
minion: I find it so much more elegant to just write "they"
<contrapunctus>
phoe: thanks, I sent that deliberately 😀
<phoe>
contrapunctus: might want to send a PR too
<contrapunctus>
(Although I didn't expect the error.)
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<contrapunctus>
Ah, so that's what you meant. Thanks, I'll consider it 🙂
<beach>
contrapunctus: Great! For your information, I am planning version 2 of Gsharp, called Clovetree. It will use McCLIM for displaying the result and it will use essentially the same layout algorithm, but the presentation will use new font technology.
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<adlai>
my guess, contrapunctus, is that the author of the fragment "when he/she/it next speaks" probably anticipated that IRC conversations might plausibly involve more than one bot.
<beach>
contrapunctus: jackdaniel has a task to work on the GUI, which is something I am not very good at.
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<contrapunctus>
beach: Sounds fancy 🙂 I'm thinking of making a performance-oriented viewer for music, which will read MusicXML. I was also hoping for some s-exp format too, so I set about to look if one already exists.
<beach>
contrapunctus: That sounds quite useful.
<phoe>
XML in general can be expressed neatly using s-expressions
<contrapunctus>
beach: PDF/images irk me as a music format, so I'd like to make something reflowable, which adapts to the screen (no blank spaces), whose display is customizable (font, weight, color, etc), which never cuts off musical information midway (e.g. half a note displayed, or half a staff displayed, etc - as can happen with images), and can scroll in a music-aware manner (e.g. scrolling by musical units - bea
<contrapunctus>
ts, bars, displayed lines)
<phoe>
so perhaps a simple means of converting XML into sexprs would be a good starting point
<phoe>
you're going to do it anyway if you want to parse XML in Lisp (though most likely that'll get parsed into some sort of objects and not into literal list structure)
<beach>
contrapunctus: I see. Like I said, sounds quite useful.
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<contrapunctus>
Thanks 😁 I hope it also draws more attention to Lisp.
<beach>
Yeah.
<adlai>
contrapunctus: what do you do about legato markings that span measures?
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<contrapunctus>
adlai: thanks, I hadn't thought about that. I've seen typesetters break them, so that's an option. Or we could be smarter and try to fit them onto one line if we can, adjusting the display of the adjoining lines 🤔 Or something else?
* adlai
has invariably experienced rage when e.g. G.Henle arranges measures as though people are buying the scores for their value as fishwrap, rather than considering the phrases as poetry that should actually be arranged in a semantically-aware manner
<contrapunctus>
phoe: I was hoping to know of any such representations which are already implemented, which would help me handle the issues they've found...but if there aren't any, then I'll make my own, as you suggest. Say, why would I want them to be 'objects' rather than a list? 🤔
<phoe>
contrapunctus: check out plump
<phoe>
it's a XML parser that parses into a set of standard objects
<adlai>
you might find algorithms worth stealing in and around emacs's fill-paragraph code
<phoe>
you should be able to inspect the result of plump parsing and see how the parse result is structured internally
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<contrapunctus>
.o(lmao, DDG results for 'lisp plump' after the GitHub result 😂)
<momozor>
Hi. How do I actually pass a `spliced values from a list` for (defun f (&rest spliced-values))? My attempt is something like this -
<momozor>
(f (values-list '(1 2 3))
<phoe>
you don't want that
<phoe>
(apply #'f '(1 2 3))
<adlai>
to answer my own question, since you pointed it back at me, contrapunctus, I think that a legato marking is not always there to denote phrasing; splitting a phrase should be avoided, when possible, although splitting a short non-phrasing legato that links a few notes between measures should be avoided much more thoroughly. that is as bad as this kind of hyp-henation.
<phoe>
VALUES-LIST doesn't do what you think it does
<momozor>
oh thanks
<phoe>
it is related to multiple values, which are a different concept than function application
<phoe>
(f (values-list '(1 2 3)) === (f 1)
<phoe>
since only the primary value is taken into account here.
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<momozor>
ah I see
<momozor>
anyway, using apply works. Thanks!
<phoe>
multiple values are most useful at function boundaries, in order to avoid returning tuples
<contrapunctus>
adlai: I already see this veering into Lilypond/LaTeX levels of typesetting complexity 😁 Well, I'll certainly look into that (since it's primarily made for musicians to read) once I've got a MVP going. Thanks for sharing that concern.
<phoe>
momozor: <3
<adlai>
contrapunctus: regrettably, musicians often have opinions about two-dimensional arrangements, along with all the opinions about decibular timeseries.
<contrapunctus>
adlai: "decibular timeseries"? 🤔
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<adlai>
signal, noise, and everything in between
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<_roman_>
Hi. Maybe someone can help me understand locked packages in sbcl. I'm trying to get GBBopen to compile but keep getting a package-locked-error
<_roman_>
Thanks. I'm still not clear in my own head about the locks given that the #+sbcl conditionalization ought to activate the no locking before the defun (no?)
<phoe>
not really
<phoe>
#+sbcl causes the form to appear there only for SBCL
<phoe>
but then it tries to read "sb-impl::something"
<phoe>
the symbol does not exist there, so it must be interned
<phoe>
the act of interning trips the package lock
<phoe>
an error is signaled
<phoe>
all of this before sb-ext:without-package-locks is even compiled in
<phoe>
and before it has a chance to execute
<_roman_>
I see
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<_roman_>
a matter of timing so to speak
<phoe>
yesssss
<phoe>
does anyone have code for printing arbitrary hex grids as ASCII-art to console?
<_roman_>
While looking at this, I came across "12.1.2 Implementation Packages" in the sbcl manual. Never heard of them nor could find any other documentation on them. Are they just a convention for code separation or something more? Any pointers where I might find more info?
<beach>
The former.
<phoe>
that's a SBCL thing
<beach>
It is just a way to divide the code into modules.
<_roman_>
ok
<_roman_>
thanks
<beach>
Sure.
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<adlai>
lonjil: continuing from #lispcafe - you may find this project can save you some time, and perhaps also has ideas worth stealing, should you work on implementing a replacement: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/cl-collider.html
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<dlowe>
CLX question - If I received a window ID from xlib:get-property, how can I convert that to a window so I can get its property?
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<dlowe>
also wow, CLX is copyright 1987 by Texas Instruments
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<beach>
dlowe: If I were you, I would ask the nice people in #clim. They work a lot with CLX.
<beach>
dlowe: And, yes, I would very much like to see a new version of CLX, or perhaps something entirely different that uses the xrender extension exclusively. Either way, something way more CLOS-y.
<dlowe>
yeah, I just think it's interesting that TI did it. I never would have guessed.
<beach>
Oh, I see.
<dlowe>
also that's it's old :)
<beach>
Yeah, and the reason it does not use generic functions and standard classes is that it predates the ANSI Common Lisp standard.
<dlowe>
ah, that makes sense.
<dlowe>
it would be quite the job to translate between models
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<beach>
"models"? xrender and X core?
<dlowe>
clx-classes and clos
<beach>
Ah, I see. Yes, a bit.
<dlowe>
the clx model adheres pretty closely to its xlib roots
<tich>
I would like to loop through a list collecting say the first 3 elements how do i do that
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<phoe>
tich: (subseq list 0 3)
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<dlowe>
tich: you might be interested in #clschool
<phoe>
(subseq '(a b c d e f g h) 0 3) ;=> (A B C)
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<_death>
the ANSI committee had graphics/windowing groups and there were discussions about CLOSifying CLX, and about CLUE as well
<tich>
My question was not clear enough I would like to go through a list in 3s (for-each-tripple (i j k) in '(a b c d e f g) collect (list i j k) ) => ((a b c) (d e f) g)
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<phoe>
tich: collecting the G at the end will be tricky
<jackdaniel>
one thing to keep in mind is that xlib has the implementation which defines CLOS classes too
<jackdaniel>
define-clx-class defines either structures or standard classes depending on a build-time flag
<beach>
Oh, I had no idea.
<beach>
Interesting.
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<phoe>
you can (loop for (x y z) on list by #'cdddr collect (list x y z))
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<phoe>
but that will return ((A B C) (D E F) (G NIL NIL))
<phoe>
so there needs to be a little bit of conditionalization to avoid these last NILs
<tich>
phoe:thank you
<tich>
phoe:so the by clause has to be a function and not an integer?
<phoe>
tich: if you are performing list iteration, it must be a list function
<phoe>
a numeric BY is there if you do numeric iteration
<phoe>
e.g. (loop for x from 0 by 5 ...)
<_death>
you can use nthcdr
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<_death>
the AMOP book and the CLIM spec are good examples
<pve>
ok, lots of good stuff, thanks
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<pve>
Do you guys start by carefully defining your interfaces, or do you just hack away and later flesh out the interfaces?
<phoe>
I do both at the same time
<phoe>
it's okay to have a rough sketch of the interface, but most of the time it changes anyway during the implementation
<phoe>
unless you already have an interface that you build against, at which point the question is moot
<pve>
sure
<beach>
Also, I often find myself wanting a completely new version of some library I wrote in the past. And then I have a much better idea of the protocol I want to implement.
<beach>
But yeah, the first time around, it is incremental.
<pve>
ok, makes sense
<beach>
pve: Feel free to expose your ideas for protocols here.
<pve>
beach: thanks, will do.. don't really have anything concrete at this point though
<beach>
pve: As _death pointed out, the CLIM specification is an excellent example of how to design protocols.
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<beach>
pve: I understand. But I assume you are working with some project in mind?
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<pve>
I'm working on my toy language, and while the compiler works (from the language to CL, right now), the internals are kind of hacky and probably wrong from a textbook perspective
<beach>
I see.
<pve>
I'd like to clean it up, but need to get a better idea of how I could go about it
<beach>
This is probably way too complex, but perhaps you want to have a quick glance at what we do in Cleavir. We read CSTs using Eclector, then translate them to ASTs, then to HIR.
<pve>
and I feel better-defined interfaces would be a good start
<pve>
hmm can't hurt to have a look
<beach>
Check SICL/Code/Cleavir2/...
<beach>
There is even documentation. :)
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<pve>
right now I piggy-back on the lisp reader to get a list of tokens which are then parsed into an AST, the AST is then used to emit CL code
<beach>
OK.
<pve>
I wanted to be able to mix CL with my language and that felt like the easiest way to get started
<beach>
I vividly recommend you use Eclector if you are reading something that looks a bit like Lisp.
<beach>
It is highly configurable.
<pve>
I've been eying it from a distance
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<pve>
waiting to make the leap
<beach>
Eclector also comes with great documentation.
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<pve>
it looks like lisp in the sense that almost everything is a lisp form, besides that, it looks like smalltalk
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<beach>
So, Eclector will let you intercept things like symbol creation, so that you don't need to have the right packages already defined in your Common Lisp system.
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<pve>
not sure if "form" is the right term, I mean symbols, numbers, strings etc just as they are written in lisp
<beach>
I see.
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<pve>
I will definitely see if I could make use of Eclector
<beach>
In fact, it is high time we stamp out implementation-specific readers. :)
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<beach>
pve: Speaking of which, Eclector is another excellent example of how to design CLOS protocols.
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<pve>
ok, that's good to know
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<splittist>
I should look again, but what led me not to use Eclector in a particular case was the vast array of (quite illuminating, but not so helpful for that case) errors that could be signalled.
<splittist>
Of course, at the time I hadn't read the book on CL's condition system...
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<pve>
currently I'm only at about 5k lines of CL and maybe another 5k of the new language, so things are still quite manageable, but it would be good to get a little discipline into it sooner rather than later
<pve>
I imagine it will only become harder
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<rumbler31_>
this probably belongs on #ccl but I'm trying to use ccl to parse command line arguments. Seems like when I dump from an image I've already dumped, the command line arguments globals are blank, or at least, frozen as of whenever the first image was made
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<Kabriel_>
I assume that uiop:chdir is built on top of implementation specific methods like sb-posix:chdir.
<Kabriel_>
It seems odd to me that uiop:run-program uses the "directory" that uiop:chdir modifies too, but methods like load or (truename #P"./") use *d-p-d*.
<Kabriel_>
I would expect these to be linked, or at least an easy way to link them such that when you "changed" directories, it would be consistent in both cases.
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