p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<kinope> Is there a way to load a local system with quicklisp where the name of the system definition file and the name of the system are different, in one step?
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<z3t0> What are some good lisp oriented mailing lists to follow?
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<asarch> How do you count from 1 to 5 quickly?
<kinope> (loop for x from 1 to 5 do (format t "~a~%" x))
<kinope> (loop with count = 0 repeat 5 do (print (incf count)))
<asarch> Yessss!
<asarch> Thank you!
<kinope> asarch: Welcome
<asarch> :-)
<beach> Good morning everyone!
<kinope> morning :)
<asarch> Guten Tag, herr beach. Wie geht es Ihnen?
<beach> Fine as usual, thanks. I am trying to find a volunteer to extract and improve the code for first-class global environments into a separate library (named Clostrum). But everyone is very busy it seems.
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<beach> And I haven't heard whether someone suggested a presentation for the online Lisp meeting a week from now. If not, I should finish part 2 of my "Creating a Common Lisp implementation" presentation series.
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<z3t0> beach: is there somewhere I can find info about the meeting/presentation? Is it public?
<beach> z3t0: It is public. Hold on. Let me see if I can find it.
<z3t0> thanks!
<beach> Sure.
<beach> Apparently, the presentations are available as recordings somewhere.
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<phoe> here they are
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<beach> Hey phoe. Any candidates for a week from now?
<phoe> nope, but I have not been looking
<phoe> I must look harder
<phoe> I'll do that today
<beach> OK.
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<beach> If not, I can do it. Part 2 is almost done.
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<leedleLoo> Is the and type-specifier supposed to short-circuit like the and macro? I'm getting a memory error using a deftype which expands to '(and simple-string (satisfies my-unsafe-simple-string-predicate))
<beach> No.
<phoe> it isn't - it can be freely reordered
<beach> Type specifiers can be canonicalized and simplified, so there is no such guarantee.
<phoe> Lisp types are mathematical sets
<phoe> in type specifier languages, (AND A B) === (AND B A)
<phoe> and the implementation is allowed to freely leverage that fact to its advantage
<phoe> s/languages/language/
<leedleLoo> Thanks, that makes sense when compared to mathematical sets. I guess I'll have to move the type handling into the predicate then
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<jackdaniel> in clim first type in and (for presentation types) has special treatment by the function accept
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<phoe> jackdaniel: huh
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<jackdaniel> phoe: also, you may treat class superclasses as a definition of type instersection, ala (and class-1 class-2 class-3)
<jackdaniel> and similarily, the order matters when you compute the effective method
<jackdaniel> (and a b c) could be interpreted as: it is all three, but first and foremost its a
<jackdaniel> ;)
<jackdaniel> s/its/it's/
<phoe> ooooh
<phoe> yes, correct! I was talking about types not classes though, so a slightly simpler topic
<jackdaniel> you've talked generally about types
<phoe> the big difference is the order of direct superclasses matters, whereas the order of sub-type specifiers in AND doesn't
<jackdaniel> classes define type hierarchy, presentation types even more
<jackdaniel> s/even more/too/
<jackdaniel> for typep the order may not matter, however from the implementation perspective it is not unlikely that they are inspected from left to right and then it becomes debatable (i.e the type specifier satisfies may take longer to determine)
<phoe> yes, but let's consider (and simple-string (satisfies foo))
<phoe> FOO must not assume that its argument is a simple-string because the implementation is free to reorder AND
<jackdaniel> yes
<phoe> it's a weird choice because of what you mentioned, SATISFIES is expensive
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<phoe> but nonetheless permitted
<jackdaniel> I'm just picky about the s tatement, that "Lisp types are mathematical sets"
<jackdaniel> statement*
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<phoe> "A type is a (possibly infinite) set of objects."
<jackdaniel> it is quasi-similar to a statement, that the order of operations in (* foo bar qux) does not matter
<phoe> uh, no
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<phoe> the rules of evaluation are well-specified
<phoe> there's no such rule for type specifiers
<jackdaniel> yes, but from "mathematical" sense the result will be always the same
<jackdaniel> s/from/in/
<phoe> oh, yes, I see
<jackdaniel> same for type predicates, from "mathematical" sense the order of clauses in AND is not relevant, however in computer languages it /probably/ is
<jackdaniel> or, "it may be"
<phoe> correct
<phoe> it's just that there's no guarantee that, in complex type specifiers such as OR or AND, the SATISFIES sub-type-specifiers are checked last
<phoe> which makes (and simple-string (satisfies foo)) somewhat counter-intuitive I guess
<jackdaniel> sure
<jackdaniel> as I've said, I was picking at the phrase "mathematical sets"
<phoe> okay, picking accepted
<leedleLoo> :) I was reading the phrase "mathematical sets" as: (and &rest type-specifiers) in a type-specifier is treated as the definition of a mathematical set of types by the implementation. Consequently, order is not guaranteed. On the other hand, (and &rest expressions) used outside of type-specifiers is treated as a regular expression/macro by the implementation so regular eval rules apply
<phoe> actually there's no "regular eval rules" when macros come into play
<phoe> and the AND macro is, well, a macro
<phoe> standard evaluation rules apply to function calls, not to macro calls
<leedleLoo> Good point. I guess it's better to say that AND in a type-specifier does not behave like AND the macro
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<phoe> yes
<phoe> no short circuiting and no order guarantee
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<lottaquestions> How can I change the contents of a list in slime inspector?
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<ldb> hellp
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<vegai> HELLO
<phoe> lottaquestions: huh. I never tried, myself.
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<ldb> lottaquestions: try slime-inspector-operate-on-point
<phoe> ldb: the issue is that "goes" into the value
<phoe> so if I inspect the result of (cons 1 2) then I can inspect 1 or 2
<phoe> but I don't seem to be able to modify the CAR or CDR
<lottaquestions> so the list is a list of symbols
<phoe> I think this can be worked around by using M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of *
<phoe> so (setf (car *) 'lsdvkhlsdg)
<lottaquestions> let me try that
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<ldb> phoe: seems slime requires contrib .el files to set value in inspector
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<phoe> ldb: oh! I wasn't aware of these
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<lottaquestions> M-RET to perform slime-inspector-copy-down, then returning to the REPL, and then mutating the value of * has worked to change the contents of a list
<phoe> <3
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<Posterdati> hi
<phoe> heyyyy
<Posterdati> again gsll is unusable on openbsd :(
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<Posterdati> :openbsd is infact missing in *features*
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<phoe> Posterdati: which implementation is that?
<Posterdati> phoe: which implementation is linux then?
<jackdaniel> Posterdati: I think that he asks about the common lisp implementation you use
<jackdaniel> not the bsd flavour
<phoe> Posterdati: I meant the Common Lisp implementation
<ldb> seems only CLisp, ECL, GCL could work
<Posterdati> sbcl 2.0 on openbsd 6.7 amd64
<Posterdati> phoe: seems that there's no :openbsd nor :bsd in *features*
<Posterdati> phoe: correction,.(member :bsd *features* :test #'equalp) returns (:bsd ... :unix)
<phoe> Posterdati: so :bsd is there
<Posterdati> phoe: but no flavour in it
<phoe> you might want to ask #sbcl to add :openbsd to features when SBCL is built there
<ldb> or just push it yourself and save the heap image
<Posterdati> phoe: due to this I cannot use egcc to compile libraries
<phoe> Posterdati: or do what ldb mentioned for a hotfix
<Posterdati> phoe: ok, but I have to change cffi and gsll again :)
<phoe> Posterdati: no, why?
<phoe> load SBCL up, push :openbsd to *features*, THEN load CFFI and GSLL
<phoe> they should compile the code that depends on the :openbsd feature
<Posterdati> phoe: there's no specific configuration for openbsd in cffi, it loads the wrong library version
<phoe> ooh
<phoe> then CFFI needs to get patched too
<Posterdati> and gsll too
<phoe> such is the life of people on less supported operating systems :(
<phoe> or should I say, less popular ones
<Posterdati> I have to do that for the nth time :)
<ldb> CFFI could work with ECL on OpenBSD
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<marcoxa> Hello, I have a question regarding the Hyperspec entry for HANDLER-CASE. Is it just me, or the example expansion in terms of HANDLER-BIND contains one error? I.e., shouldn't the last line be
<jackdaniel> spec handler-case
<jackdaniel> clhs handler-case
<marcoxa> #4# (return-from #2# (let ((var2 #2#)) . body2)) ...)))
<jackdaniel> there is no block named #2#, is there?
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<Bike> no, the lambda is the no-error code.
<jackdaniel> ah, you mean the last example
<Bike> so it needs to be called if the form doesn't signal an error.
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<marcoxa> @Bike not the :no-error case.
<Bike> The other example? jackdaniel is right, there's no block named #2#
<marcoxa> The first case. I think me and @jackdaniel agree.
<Bike> If you agree than it shouldn't be (return-from #2# ...)
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<phoe> it cannot be return-from #2# because this won't compile
<phoe> all of these cases must return-from #1#
<marcoxa> IMHO it *should* be (return-from #2# ...)
<jackdaniel> marcoxa: but #2# is not a block name
<Bike> then you don't agree with jackdaniel.
<jackdaniel> so where from it would return?
<phoe> marcoxa: try compiling that code
<Bike> why would it be return-from #2#? there's no block called #2#.
<jackdaniel> #1 is the handler-case's block to return from, #2 is a temporary result. I'm slightly concerned about the first lambda though
<jackdaniel> because it should be (setq #2# temp) I think
<marcoxa> Because of the SETQs in the handlers. Now that you mentioned it, it does mess things up. But the SETQs seem erroneous
<jackdaniel> ditto
<Bike> yeah, (setq #1# ...) is probably wrong
<phoe> now that one is wrong, yes
<phoe> #1# is not a variable
<phoe> #2# should be set, since it is used to transfer data from the handler function to the handler case
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<jackdaniel> I'm sure I've said ^ a few lines above
<marcoxa> Ok. Yeah. This looks better. (setq #2# temp) should be in the first handler.
<Bike> someone should maybe throw it on https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata then
<marcoxa> Yep @phoe
<phoe> Bike: I will
<phoe> jackdaniel: yes, sorry
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<puchacz> hi, has anybody used a css parser library? I would like to parse css, possibly modify something in the parse tree and serialise it back.
<jackdaniel> marcoxa: could you check the query window? I've left you a private message
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<phoe> puchacz: I think Shinmera might have something like that
<puchacz> phoe: clss?
<puchacz> I am not sure you can serialise it back into a string
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<Posterdati> phoe: no way to make it work...
<phoe> Posterdati: sorry, can't help you any further
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<ldb> Posterdati: have you had luck with ECL?
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<ldb> it's interesting to see that in the book A Programming Language, ``metaprogramming'' actually is parsing and evaling terms
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<phoe> lisp stuff must be metametaprogramming then
<Posterdati> ldb: not using ecl on openbsd
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<puchacz> hmmm, I am finding lquery rather difficult to understand....
<puchacz> macros, macros everywhere
<phoe> beach: please submit your talk. I'll have two talks this time, the other from the Guile Scheme world.
<phoe> (If it's not a big problem for you, that is!)
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<beach> phoe: OK, will do.
<phoe> beach: thanks!
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<Posterdati> phoe: fixes
<Posterdati> phoe: fixed!
<Posterdati> phoe: but is still uses clang to compile and not the $CC contents
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<marcoxa> @Posterdati R U italian? As if it were antani? :)
<beach> marcoxa: The @ convention is not used on IRC. Just type the nick followed by a colon. Your IRC client should complete for you.
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<dlowe> beach: that's complicated by the popularity of bridges now
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<beach> Oh, another thing I am completely ignorant of. :(
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<cnmne> hi, I'm trying to understand an elisp package. In `(declare-function some-func "ext:other-func" ())`, what's the purpose of the ":ext" prefix ?
<phoe> #emacs might help you more
<beach> cnmne: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you may have to ask in #emacs.
<cnmne> oh sorry, thanks
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<Posterdati> marcoxa: by two
<Posterdati> marcoxa: like it was antani
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<rikudocat> I will add some fresh to the discussion here
<rikudocat> If you don’t want to see any foreign objects, please respond
<phoe> rikudocat: huh
<rikudocat> o, my English is not good, can not understand the abbreviation
<phoe> which abbreviation?
<phoe> "huh" means that I did not understand you
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<rikudocat> I get it now
<rikudocat> I'm going to show a thing that all software engineers love.
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<rikudocat> If there is no objection, I will send a link to my project later
<phoe> what is the project?
<phoe> ummmmm, is this related to Lisp though?
<rikudocat> Forgive me for using a short URL, no trap to open it with confidence
<Bike> this url looks pretty shady.
<phoe> just clicked it, it's an IPFS page. keyboard layouts don't seem on-topic though
<rikudocat> Don't be too serious, always talk about one thing, time will pass quickly
<phoe> (especially non-space-cadet ones :D)
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<rikudocat> I hope that lisp programmers who are interested in the project will join my project
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<Oladon> White_Flame: Around? I'd like to run some thoughts by ya.
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<z3t0> I was wondering if there are lisps out there suited to real-time programming or tasks that require predictable performance? I think mainly this would require an implementation without a garbage collector? I'm no expert so please correct me if I said something stupid. My use case is writing a real time video processing application
<z3t0> I did read somewhere that the gc can also be tuned, is that a good approach?
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