<seok>
Is it a bad idea to use (ql:quickload ) over setting depends-on in .asd file?
<|3b|>
probably, for anything beyond quick hacks
<seok>
why so?
<|3b|>
harder to introspect what it depends on, or build an image without quicklisp
<|3b|>
if other people want to use it, they might not have QL, or might not have a network connection
<seok>
hm
<seok>
ok
<|3b|>
possibly some oddness with ordering if other things want to depend on it
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* |3b|
frequently has a ql:quickload form in a comment or #- in new projects so i can manually evaluate it to easily load the dependencies before i get around to writing an .asd file though
<White_Flame>
|3b|: the defparameter would basically perform a setf if it already exists, so affecting the current binding makes sense
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<|3b|>
yeah, either makes sense, i just guessed wrong :)
<|3b|>
if it did setf of symbol-value it would affect the global binding, setf of name directly would be local, i guessed global since i think of it in terms of global variables, but spec says name
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<seok>
is there a way to read only last x lines of a file?
<seok>
I want to implement some sort of FILO from a file system
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<White_Flame>
read-line, rolling buffer of x lines, loop until eof?
<White_Flame>
would be the easiest to do
<seok>
what is that?
<seok>
hm
<seok>
I'm trying to find a solution that does not become more expensive with bigger files
<White_Flame>
the biggest problem with trying to read backwards is the stupid CRLF that some files use
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<White_Flame>
if you can guarantee a LF character, then you could scan backwards for X number of those
<seok>
I can write in separate files, but lisp puts 10 before 2
<White_Flame>
uh
<White_Flame>
that doesn't make sense. If you're sorting, then you tell it how to sort
<White_Flame>
if you're sorting strings, then it's up to you to do the zero padding or conversion to numbers
<seok>
well, uiop:directory-files to be precise
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<seok>
hm, I guess it might not matter
<White_Flame>
the filesystem also might be sorting it for some reason
<White_Flame>
but if you're not sorting it yourself, then you cannot rely on the ordering of files being consistent
<seok>
right
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<seok>
What's the best library for storing simple lisp objects, no functions or clos, into files?
<Xach>
seok: cl-store is very easy to use.
<seok>
Thank you xach
<Xach>
seok: but simpler still is using write
<seok>
Can I store non-strings with just write?
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<seok>
hm
<White_Flame>
hash tables don't have a readable form, but structures do
<seok>
is write/read more performant than cl-store?
<Xach>
seok: it depends on the objects.
<Xach>
seok: what objects did you have in mind specifically?
<seok>
just strings and numbers
<Xach>
write/read are likely to be faster than using cl-store in that case.
<seok>
I don't think read can read floats though?
<Xach>
seok: why do you think that? read reads all your source code.
<seok>
oh
<seok>
ok
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<seok>
I just remembered there was something about floats that makes them difficult to parse
<seok>
You're right
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<White_Flame>
printers of FP numbers have generated ascii representations that can be read back in bit-for-bit matching for decades now
<|3b|>
just make sure you include type in the ascii (1f0 or 1d0 instead of 1.0 etc) or READ with same default float format
<seok>
(write 1f0) gives 1.0 though
<seok>
:O
<White_Flame>
all depends on default-float-format
<White_Flame>
if that's the same between reading & writing, it's fine
<White_Flame>
*read-default-float-format*
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<seok>
Ah found it
<seok>
thank you
<|3b|>
might also look at WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX when using write/read for data files, so you can try to have a consistent state more easily
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<alandipert>
hi beach!
<beach>
Hey, how is JACL going?
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<alandipert>
beach oh you know, very slowly :-) working on the best way to support multiple values currently
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<beach>
Yes, I understand.
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<easye>
If one applies CL:REVERSE to a vector specialized on a given type (unsigned-byte 32), is a conforming implementation allowed to return an unspecialized result?
<phoe>
AAET means "the type for which the array is actually specialized"
<phoe>
so, "For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same actual array element type as sequence."
<phoe>
"For reverse, if sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same type for which the array is actually specialized as the input sequence."
<phoe>
so I read it as: if you pass a specialized vector of ub32, then the result must also be a specialized vector of ub32
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<easye>
phoe: yes, that is my reading as well. Thanks for confirming.
* easye
fixes more of the internals of the Bear.
<easye>
Sometimes I am surprised that ABCL can correctly do any numerics at all.
<phoe>
easye: actually I misread you
<phoe>
if your answer is "yes, the implementation is allowed to return an unspecialized result" then I guess I disagree
<phoe>
since you said you're judging the answer to be yes
<easye>
No, I agree that having CL:REVERSE return an unspecialized type for a specialized argument would be non-conforming.
<phoe>
OK then - I understand now
* phoe
evaluates more tea
* easye
smokes another.
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<Harag>
is there way to limit a "method" to a funcion's scope?
<phoe>
what do you mean, a function's scope?
<Harag>
like you would use labels
<Harag>
for a function
<phoe>
don't think that's possible
<Harag>
ok is there a way to maybe swop out two methods and runtime and then swop them back with the mop?
<phoe>
sure, it is possible, but it does sound like a bit hassle
<Harag>
yes it
<Harag>
is
<beach>
Harag: Why don't you tell us what it is that you want to accomplish instead.
<phoe>
^
<Harag>
I want to temporarily clobber a print-object method
<phoe>
I think you can use a custom pprint-dispatch for tat
<phoe>
that*
<Harag>
yeah but I want to clobber it for readability not pretty print
<beach>
Heh, you need the "Incless" library that is not finished yet, but that would allow you to play tricks like that.
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<Harag>
beach: so in theory how would Incless do it?
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<Harag>
is incless taking over printing "control" using shadowing and then giving its own implementation?
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<beach>
Harag: Incless is meant to be an implementation-independent printer.
<beach>
So the print-object methods trampoline to a generic function print-object-using-client.
<beach>
And the latter takes a CLIENT object in addition to the object and the stream.
<beach>
So you would put a method on print-object-using-client with a client that alters the printing as you want.
<phoe>
beach: is the default client dynamically rebindable?
<beach>
Then when you want the altered behavior, you bind INCLESS:*CLIENT* to the one that behaves like that.
<beach>
I think we (collectively) are getting the hang of creating implementation-independent libraries. :)
<beach>
Eclector, Trucler, Cleavir, first-class global environments, ...
<phoe>
ha
<phoe>
you don't need to make a fancy name for first-class global environment because "class" already contains the "cl" substring that is required
<beach>
Too late. It will be called "Clostrum".
<phoe>
oh
<beach>
It's an alternative spelling of "claustrum" which means an enclosed space.
<beach>
As in "claustrophobia" etc.
* flip214
is reminded of colostrum...... sorry about that
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<beach>
flip214: "reminded"? I think you just did a Google search.
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<flip214>
beach: no. My wife is a nurse, and daughter is becoming one, so I'm hearing stuff like that a lot.
<Harag>
beach: i dont think Incless will work in ecl
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<beach>
Why is that?
<Harag>
I can get the shadow approach to work in sbcl
<Harag>
but not in ecl
<beach>
Who said anything about shadow?
<Harag>
ecl just ignores your overriding functions and calls its own
<jackdaniel>
if there is a problem with dynamic bindings please report a bug. unless you mean, that ecl inlines some functions?
<jackdaniel>
then you need to declare them notinline
<Harag>
mmm ok
<phoe>
Harag: which functions are you trying to shadow?
<Harag>
print-object
<phoe>
if you are trying to FLET/LABELS/MACROLET any function or macro or special operator from the CL package, it's undefined behavior
<phoe>
well then
<phoe>
that's not allowed
<Harag>
not doing it in labels etc
<phoe>
oh? how do you do it then?
<Harag>
just testing how incless does it
<Harag>
trying to understand
<phoe>
AFAIK incless defines its own #'incless:print-object
<phoe>
it's up to the implementation to hook that into its own printing system
<phoe>
just like eclector defines its own #'eclector.reader:read
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<phoe>
random note: today, I have removed the last TODO from my upcoming condition system book
<beach>
Great!
<beach>
The deadline was modified, no?
<beach>
Initially, it was very tight.
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
it's been stretched a little bit, and I feel somewhat terrible for it
<phoe>
but it seems like after my editors have a go at the last bits of text I've introduced, it is ready to go into production
<beach>
Nah, don't worry about it. They must be used to it.
<phoe>
I secretly hope that they are used to it
<phoe>
;; and I feel even more terrible for exhibiting such hope
<beach>
Wow, they actually have editors read the stuff? That is unusual these days.
<phoe>
beach: I actually got a very good one from Apress
<beach>
Excellent. Most publishing companies will print whatever you give them.
<beach>
And the average quality of published books is a proof of that.
<phoe>
I think that most of the heavy lifting has been done by the Lisp community though; digikar and gendl and heisig and adlai and splittist and SAL9000 and *way* *WAY* too many people to count here have done a #.most-positive-fixnum amount of work with beating my words into proper shape
<beach>
Nice!
<SAL9000>
thanks :-)
<phoe>
to the point where the editor from Apress didn't really have anything to do, save for restructuring the chapters in the way that is acceptable by Apress and noticing like two or three minor issues that weren't caught earlier
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<SAL9000>
(I really should get around to putting a reviewer blurb thing into that issue before it's too late)
<phoe>
so, frankly, the book's been edited by the Lisp community
<phoe>
and that fact brings a big ole smile to my face
<phoe>
SAL9000: yes you should
<beach>
Yeah, that's great.
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<heisig>
phoe: Congratulations on removing your last TODO! I am very excited about this book.
<phoe>
heisig: <3
<heisig>
I secretly hope that other language designers will read it and adapt their languages accordingly :)
<phoe>
like, literally, the Hall of Fame section of my book is so fat that I am grinning just looking at it
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<lonjil>
Harag: Incless uses the CL package but shadows the standard printing related symbols. Thus, Incless can have its own symbols with the same names. This should work on all CL implementations.
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<lonjil>
phoe: for implementations that want to use Incless, I believe that we are actually going to have a separate system and package that uses CL into Incless but without shadowing.
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<phoe>
lonjil: oh! I see
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<chrnybo>
I usually work in latin-1, now I need unicode. Connecting to lispworks with slime, and (code-char 3459) gives expected result in the repl.
<chrnybo>
(write (code-char 3459)) on the other hand, fails with:
<chrnybo>
<chrnybo>
Error (TYPE-ERROR) during printing: #<TYPE-ERROR 40200D4A1B>
<phoe>
hah
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<chrnybo>
Care to teach me how to resolve=
<phoe>
let me try to reproduce
<phoe>
(print (code-char 3459)) works for me in the listener for LispWorks 7.1.2 Personal
<phoe>
don't know about slime
<chrnybo>
In a plain terminal, starting lispworks console, I get #\U+0D83. Not so bad.
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<phoe>
this looks like a slime error
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<phoe>
something in slime seems to expect that the code-char 3459 is a base-char
<phoe>
and it's not
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<phoe>
you could also try asking the lisp-hug mailgrou
<phoe>
p
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<chrnybo>
phoe: thanks for the hint on base-char, I'll resort to utputting to a file that I open with additional keys :external-format '(:utf-8 :eol-style :lf) :element-type 'character
<chrnybo>
The resulting stream takes unicode characters.
<phoe>
good
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<tychoish>
are there implementations that have reasonable cross-compiulation support/tooling, if I wanted to, say produce a darwin build on a linux system?
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* adlai
just fixed a chanl bug that has been pending for... nearly five years
<adlai>
it'd be awesome if anyone is able to confirm whether my fix works on their system as well
<tychoish>
adlai: nice!
<tychoish>
phoe: yeah, that's sort of the fall back solution, but I have an old laptop that I can hook up
<adlai>
if anyone wants to test: the official repository [in zkat's github account] still has the buggy code, and my version https://github.com/adlai/chanl/commit/a030296 has the fix
<tychoish>
adlai: I just used chanl for the first time last week, and really liked it (also hillariously zkat when to college with my partner, so its all very small world)
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<adlai>
hilariously enough, zkat abandoned common lisp, and left me to maintain the projects >:(
<tychoish>
:( I'm glad you did though :)
<adlai>
jackdaniel: w.r.t. the :arguments bug, it appears to have already been reported
* adlai
ponders whether to attack the part of chanl that uses :arguments, or first see how difficult it'll be to get this working on ECL
<adlai>
this specific part of chanl is, as far as I can tell, not yet used anywhere else; it implements a method combination that builds a call to chanl's select macro, out of the applicable methods
<Bike>
you have a method combination that actually uses :arguments?
<phoe>
it cannot be 1 because we do not support failures on this implementation
<adlai>
wonderful, adding a (sleep 0.5) before the failing test causes it to pass 100/100 times on both implementations
<phoe>
therefore we signal an error instead of returning a meaningful value
<phoe>
adlai: oh! it's the ugliest sort of errors then
<adlai>
I'm quite certain that this specific test should pass even without that sleep, though. It should not matter in this case which thread is started first, because they should synchronize.
<adlai>
the one and only place where 3.4.10 lambda lists can appear, is in the :arguments argument
<adlai>
well this is a nasty gotcha: &whole means slightly different things in d-m-c and defmacro lambda lists
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<Bike>
you also can't just hand the list of arguments to a destructuring-bind or anything, it does different things depending on the generic function's lambda list
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<Harag>
lonjil: thanx, I figured it out eventually... my confusion came from doing stuff in the repl and not a package, I clobbering sbcl's print-object for hash tables, and got print functions it to run my version, which then decided if it wanted to deal with it or pass it on to sbcl... ecl would not let me clobber the method.
<phoe>
Harag: REPL has a package too
<Harag>
yes
<Harag>
:P
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<Harag>
well at least I got to read some sbcl code and possible learned something ;)
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<asarch>
One stupid question: what is a sequence?
<asarch>
(gtk:gtk-builder-connect-signals) needs a sequence as its second argument
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<adlai>
minion: tell asarch about clhs 17.1
<minion>
asarch: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
<theseb>
SICP made an interesting point...I was wondering why i don't see the use of DSLs being more widespread......SICP said if you look more carefully....many programs in other languages can be interpreted as evaluators and/or DSLs.....So the whole world may not being doing DSLs in lisp but roughly speaking they *are* creating lots of DSLs in an ad hoc manner in all kinds of languages yes?
<theseb>
so this lisp idea actual did "win"
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<phoe>
theseb: there's tons of ideas that originated in Lisp and then "won"
<phoe>
for instance, have you heard of the IF/THEN/ELSE statement?
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<theseb>
phoe: right...and garbage collection and lots of other stuff
<phoe>
all the way to symbolic macro systems that have made their way into Nim and Rust and wherever else
<theseb>
dynamic typing
<phoe>
What Made Lisp Different makes a decent list, if you can stand pg's proselytizing approach
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<edgar-rft>
my fingers are not fast enough for dynamic typing :-(
<phoe>
too dynamic for you?
<phoe>
try DECLARE TYPE
<edgar-rft>
I tried using a dynamo but it didn't work
<theseb>
phoe: how many developers will say...."doing DSLS sounds unwise and weird"...but then not realize every time they make a python/Rust/C/C++/Java program that processes structured inputs...they are themselves making all manner of "DSLs"
<theseb>
phoe: they don't realize what they're doing
<phoe>
theseb: I kind of don't think that approaching this issue from the position of superiority where Lispers know what they're doing and non-Lispers don't know what they're doing is going to achieve much
<phoe>
it might be beneficial to write some informative blogposts, or perhaps give a talk on the topic
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<phoe>
but starting the argument with "they don't know what they're doing" is IMO borderline delusional
<phoe>
it's true that the tools define what's possible with them, but I wouldn't treat all programmers who achieve amazing things with Rust/Python/Java++ as blind, nor I would disregard all the work that goes into perfecting their tools and knowledge
<theseb>
phoe: i didn't mean they weren't smart and didn't know stuff....i just meant they weren't *self-aware* of the fact they were doing DSLs as well
<phoe>
a DSL outside Lisp is very often called a "framework"
<phoe>
and a lot of these people are very aware that they are doing frameworks
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<theseb>
phoe: ah yes...nice observation.....it is true i've heard about "frameworks" all my career
<theseb>
i can see how frameworks == DSLs..yes
<theseb>
see ...why did i need you to point that out?
<phoe>
a framework is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all
<phoe>
while a DSL is a construction built atop the base language to ease some frequently used functionalities and make some other functionalities possible at all
<phoe>
it's just that the two terms are often used in culturally exclusive environments, so it is not trivial to make the parallel
<theseb>
yea
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<tychoish>
adlai: I ran the chanl tests locally from your branch, a few RACING cases failed, but they also maybe failed on master, so I'm not sure :/
<adlai>
er, "~{~A~^ ~}" is the correct format string there
<adlai>
tychoish: thank you for the report, though. I'll take a closer look at the issues tomorrow... perhaps I'll write a test case that reports the exact state of the deadlock