#lisp on 2020-07-01 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2020-03-05 15:57 p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4

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03:17 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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07:21 <nate48423> the american government and denaro are getting my human brain they are able to have me not able to comprehend and change my taste of drinks and food at times. can you please tell your world leaders to help me I am nathan biernatt if you have questions you can message me

07:21 nate48423 was banned on #lisp by phoe [*!*nate48423@50.105.119.*]

07:21 nate48423 was kicked from #lisp by phoe [okay]

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09:54 <jdz> Xach: sr.ht supports Mercurial, so maybe some authors may want to move the projects there?

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10:31 <adlai> should typos in the hyperspec be corrected in the hyperspec, rather than left as found, for consistency with the original standards document?

10:31 <adlai> e.g., :pre-line-prefix in paragraph 3 of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm

10:33 <_death> they should be noted in https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata .. which already has this one

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10:49 <adlai> _death: thank you

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10:55 <phoe> adlai: CLHS is immutable because of its licensing

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11:13 <adlai> who here is familiar with the workings of quickdocs? I am displeased that it does not list any Requirements in http://quickdocs.org/scalpl

11:15 * adlai is currently reading through a likely culprit, https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs-extracter

11:18 * adlai wonders whether there is a specific reason that quickdocs.org has not updated the quicklisp dist since december 2019

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11:30 <phoe> adlai: fukamachiware™

11:30 <phoe> or alternatively Yet Another Abandoned Lisp Project That Is Half-Useful Half-Harmful™

11:31 <phoe> and it's not like I'm without fault here, UltraSpec also belongs on that list

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11:32 * adlai adjusts phoe's Venn diagram: there are useless harms, useful harmlessnesses, etc

11:33 <adlai> or perhaps: "The opposite of 'abandoned' is not 'maintained'."

11:33 <phoe> yes, correct

11:33 <Xach> Hmm, bitbucket has not yet deleted hg repos.

11:33 <adlai> at least you didn't say "yeah, right", then we'd both be confused

11:33 <phoe> there are projects that don't cause confusion when they are left unmaintained.

11:34 <phoe> or abandoned.

11:34 <phoe> or just don't see activity.

11:34 <Xach> I wonder if they're just going through them alphabetically

11:34 <Xach> one per day

11:34 <phoe> projects that are supposed to be always fresh don't belong on that list though

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11:35 <adlai> e.g., sheeple has had neither new features, nor bugs fixed, for about a decade, and I consider that library both maintained and abandoned

11:36 <phoe> it's also called "complete"

11:36 <adlai> apparently a handful of other libraries depend on it to a sufficiently minor degree that it does not require any of the unfinished work to be continued

11:37 <adlai> it could arguably be considered complete, although iirc it is quite far from having thorough test coverage

11:37 <splittist> discovery is a hard problem exacerbated by the community's penchant for quirky naming

11:39 * adlai recalls burning out somewhere between "reach sufficient unit test coverage that the lock-free parallelizable parts can be identified", and "steal yet another optimiziation from the open-source CLOS implementations"

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11:40 <_death> "complete" is a myth.. many libraries can easily be improved upon

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11:41 <phoe> _death: okay, s/complete/good enough/

11:42 <splittist> complete === perfect?

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11:44 <adlai> only in normative linguistics does (eq english:complete english:perfect) return T

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11:46 <adlai> since the "perfect tense" is used for actions that have been completed by the time of their description

11:47 <adlai> a metaphor that I've always found helpful when thinking about software vitrification is that of annealing, where eventually it becomes impossible to tell whether the local optimum is the global one, although you don't care anymore, because the search space has been constrained such that the local optimum is by definition the optimal optimum.

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11:55 <_death> it doesn't always go towards stability.. maybe software seismology is more apt

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12:03 <Xach> clontinental drift

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12:05 <_death> shake-lisp-and-die

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12:06 <jackdaniel> clad-lisp-and-die (clad:)

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13:24 <adlai> it gets even worse when you combine the inherent instabilities of software seismology, with attempts to reason about it using floating-point arithmetic.

13:24 <adlai> speaking of sheeple, I wonder what ever happened to CLON

13:26 <Xach> which one?

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13:27 <adlai> the "CL Object Network". this is actually unfortunate, the author decided to scrub away most of his work from the public internet. oh well.

13:27 <phoe> https://www.cliki.net/Clon

13:27 <phoe> there's three

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13:29 * adlai remembers enjoying DTO's games, a decade ago.

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13:41 * adlai can't tell what exactly went wrong, other than a disagreement over intellectual property; anyway, this is off-topic

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16:11 <joels> Hello all

16:11 <beach> Hello joels.

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16:12 <beach> joels: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.

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16:13 <joels> Yes quite new. new to #Lisp and new to Lisp ;)

16:13 <beach> Great! Welcome!

16:13 <joels> Thanks thanks

16:13 <phoe> hey hi helloooo

16:14 <beach> joels: There is also #clschool for truly elementary questions.

16:14 <joels> thanks

16:14 <beach> So you plan to learn Common Lisp?

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16:15 <phoe> beach's question stems from the fact that #lisp is a Common Lisp place; other lisp dialects have their own channels, like #racket, #scheme, #clojure and so forth

16:15 <joels> Would like to do that at some point.

16:16 <phoe> there's also #lispcafe for general off-topic discussions and general hanging out

16:16 <joels> ah #lispcafe sounds good

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16:17 <joels> If I recall, the book "land of lisp" is on CL. do you find it a good introduction ?

16:18 <beach> If you already know how to program in some other language, the general recommendation is PCL.

16:18 <beach> minion: Please tell joels about PCL.

16:18 <minion> joels: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).

16:19 <joels> ah

16:19 <joels> Thanks

16:20 <beach> His advice about a development environment is a bit dated. These days we recommend Portacle, unless you already use Emacs, in which case we just recommend you install SLIME.

16:21 <joels> Emacs is fine ;)

16:21 <phoe> perfect then

16:22 <joels> I have tried my hands on a tiny bit of emacs-lisp

16:22 <beach> I should have said we recommend you install Quicklisp and then use Quicklisp to install SLIME.

16:22 <beach> joels: You should not have much trouble with Common Lisp then.

16:23 <joels> Oh thats another question by the way what is the CL implementation to use SBCL?

16:23 <phoe> SBCL is the most popular one

16:23 <phoe> so also the most supported one, I guess

16:23 <joels> cool

16:23 <phoe> if you use any kind of emacs distribution such as spacemacs and/or doom emacs, then you can follow its instructions for installing CL stuff

16:24 <phoe> for instance, spacemacs has its common-lisp layer that includes slime along with its configuration

16:24 <phoe> I'm using it that way

16:24 <phoe> otherwise, use quicklisp and (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)

16:24 <joels> ah

16:24 <phoe> then emacs should become slime-aware

16:24 <phoe> and mostly configured to use it

16:25 <joels> Thanks for the help

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16:35 <joels> that seemed to work actually. cool. (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)

16:36 <joels> emacs is in "Lisp adoc Slime" mode

16:37 <phoe> you mean the repl, or a Lisp file?

16:37 <joels> lisp file

16:37 <phoe> looks OK

16:38 <joels> M-x slime started a repl

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16:40 <phoe> perfect

16:40 <phoe> happy hacking!

16:40 <joels> thansk

16:40 <phoe> no rpoblem

16:43 <joels> This will take some time getting used to ;)

16:44 <beach> joels: A typical way of working would be to split the Emacs frame into a REPL window and a source-file window.

16:46 <beach> joels: You would then type your code in the source file and either compile it with C-c C-k (if I remember correctly), or when you learn a bit more, you would create an ASDF file and load your code that way.

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16:47 <phoe> https://i.imgur.com/QtORSkj.png <- that's what my emacs window looks like right now

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16:48 <phoe> I do C-c on the left pane to compile-and-load individual functions

16:48 <phoe> or rather, forms

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16:49 <joels> Right having a repl and editor open side by side is very nice

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16:49 <joels> I managed to load a file by doing (load "apa.lisp")

16:50 <phoe> that's one way of loading files in Lisp

16:50 <phoe> not very slimeful

16:50 <phoe> but possbile

16:50 <phoe> usually I open a Lisp file and do C-c C-k to compile-and-load the whole file

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16:52 <joels> right. C-c C-k seems fine

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17:00 <Josh_2> Evening

17:01 <joels> Good evening

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17:12 <pve> phoe: what's your font?

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17:17 <phoe> pve: "Iosevka Term SS02"

17:18 <pve> thanks

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17:25 <joels> Is that a game you are working on there, phoe?

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17:28 <phoe> joels: yes, so far it's implementing https://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/

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17:30 <joels> looks cool

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17:32 <phoe> and annoying

17:32 <phoe> I am not used to this coordinate system

17:33 <joels> Yeah. But I guess that is part of the challenge

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17:34 <joels> Is that the basis of some graphical top down view strategy of some sort?

17:34 <phoe> yes

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17:36 <joels> Sounds like fun. good luck

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17:48 <phoe> <3

17:48 <phoe> thankee

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