<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, i was just about to complain that it's hard to catch you on IRC, but here you are ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the landing page looks quite nice. some improvements: move the "Add to cart" section up, before all the example images.
<wpwrak>
for this, perhaps swap the MAMM and the box content images
<wpwrak>
the MAMM image is actually a bit cryptic. and so is "Sharism Presents Taipei". sounds like a jon-ism ;-) is "presents" a noun or a verb ?
<wpwrak>
also, the scenery with the girl on screen seems to get vertically scaled with the specs on the right. that looks right on firefox but distorts it on konqueror. dunno what other browsers do with it.
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
hard to catch - sorry about that
<wolfspraul>
that's mostly related to the firewall I am constantly struggling with
<wolfspraul>
I saw your comment about using qi-hw.com more - we should definitely do that
<wolfspraul>
the shortener I mean
<wpwrak>
yes. short URLs = good karma :)
<wolfspraul>
I want to get rid of the entire creloaded shop software asap
<wolfspraul>
it's a pain to edit those pages
<wolfspraul>
Jon already came up with a nice static design
<wolfspraul>
but for now I do this, just fudge it up so it works for now
<wolfspraul>
creloaded is also bad because they have this 'some features in proprietary pro version' model which I hate
<wolfspraul>
either free software works or it doesn't work, but not like this
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
crippleware deluxe
<wolfspraul>
bah, yes
<wolfspraul>
presents is a verb
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to move the accessories picture up because it's such bad quality
<wpwrak>
so M1 is something that's typical for taipei ?
<wolfspraul>
I almost don't want it at all, but it's good to say there are accessories
<wolfspraul>
don't read too much into thi
<wolfspraul>
this
<wolfspraul>
of course it's a jonism
<wpwrak>
sigh
<wpwrak>
it's right on top of the page. so you get confused
<wpwrak>
i don't think the accessories picture is bad. of course, there's no M1 in evidence :)
<wpwrak>
an online shop is a uniquely bad place for confusing people. you really don't want them to wonder where they've landed. it's already sub-optimal that they get sent from milkymist.org to sharism.
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<wolfspraul>
is the nice drawing looking better on your browser now?
<wpwrak>
yeah, much better !
<wpwrak>
not as good as in firefox, though. konqueror makes the whole page a bit narrower. but it's well within tolerances.
<wolfspraul>
I just removed some auto-tags :-)
<wolfspraul>
creloaded...
<wolfspraul>
added add to cart on top - good idea thanks!
<wolfspraul>
I need to tweak the text some more too, mention the included patches
<wolfspraul>
and the spec table needs an overhaul
<kristianpaul>
(MAMM) oh
<wpwrak>
you actually have no less than four different "identities" on the store page: 1) sharism.cc in the URL and "sharism.cc the copyleft company" 2) "Sharism at Work Store" in the HTML title 3) "Hong-Kong based [...] Sharism Ltd." in the intro 4) "Sharism Presents Taipei" in the title visible on the page
<wolfspraul>
well at least it's always sharism :-)
<wpwrak>
i'm sure most domain grabbers manage to maintain the same level of consistency ;-)
<wpwrak>
if you added a few google ads, the impression would be perfect :)
<kristianpaul>
hum , i just started following @milkymistvj but number still 143 ..
<kristianpaul>
yes, i cleared cache and tried another broweser, may be i'm too inpatient
<wpwrak>
i think that's the official number
<kristianpaul>
i see
<wpwrak>
hey, it's just a few orders of magnitude away from the whole world population !
<kristianpaul>
"On the surface at least this seems kind of like the old Newtek Video Toasters& neat stuff!"
<kristianpaul>
well, if some body paid for the article may pay also for a bran news M1 as well ;)
<kristianpaul>
brand new**
<wpwrak>
64 articles = 1 M1 ;-)
<kristianpaul>
lol
<kristianpaul>
hum, adardruit may consider support another tutorial/workshop to make this thing work with M1 https://www.adafruit.com/products/20
<kristianpaul>
he and ironically the only FPGA related thing on the shop is altera DE0 :(
<wpwrak>
hmm, competigion !
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: btw, your m1 picture @MAMM is the nicest on-location picture I believe we have
<wolfspraul>
thanks a lot!
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: adafruit may consider what? don't understand
<kristianpaul>
sell M1 :-)
<wolfspraul>
you mean they should? I doubt it fits their business model
<wolfspraul>
you can try to email them though, that's always great
<wolfspraul>
I believe Sebastien and/or me tried and got nothing back (not to my surprise)
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wpwrak>
M1 is a little heavy for the DIY crowd
<wolfspraul>
it will sell to some high-end hackers, but I'm optimistic we know this market quite well
<kristianpaul>
as when having a computer was matter of DIY? well not Do but may be Assemble?
<kristianpaul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
hackable-devices etc. will help, maybe something in the US too, but something smaller and more focused on going to hacker events etc.
<wolfspraul>
adafruit has a totally different business model, imho
<wolfspraul>
I would be surprised if they were interested in m1
<wolfspraul>
aside from the hackers, we need to work on channels that reach out to musicians or people interested in video work
<wolfspraul>
and that's a big scene, many times bigger than hardware hackers
<wolfspraul>
like 1000 times bigger :-)
<wolfspraul>
so on the hacker side, we need help in being present with demo units at events
<wolfspraul>
on the music side, we need help because it's such a big world and many channels to reach music lovers allover
<wolfspraul>
that's my thinking
<wolfspraul>
think of it this way - even if adafruit.com would push m1 like crazy on their homepage etc. - how many would they sell?
<wolfspraul>
how many of their products are over 50 USD, or 100 USD?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: if your build environment has stdbool.h, you may want to consider #including it in flickernoise/src/compiler.c  makes the code a LOT more portable :)
<wpwrak>
people may find it via adafruit who are not regular adafruit customers. hard to tell in these networked days.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: thanks ! so the build env is sane :)
<wolfspraul>
the question is whether it makes sense for their business
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: sure. that's only something they know :)
<wolfspraul>
for me it's simple. I look at their company from the outside. I *think* m1 doesn't fit, but I email them, so they have the chance to see it.
<wolfspraul>
I am sure someone reads the mail. Most likely m1 does not fit a whole bunch of must-have criteria for inclusion, so it's out. Not even a reply. All fine.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: no you can make a qualification from outside
<wpwrak>
sure. but it's hard to predict if they would take in some oddball thing they like
<wolfspraul>
theoretically a mail you send may end up in the spam filter, or be read at a bad moment or by the wrong contact
<wolfspraul>
but practically you qualify outside, and then focus on where you youself believe in win-win
<wpwrak>
yes, if you don't have a proper channel, then there's that, too
<wolfspraul>
in adafruit's case, I don't
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't bet on them becoming a major m1 promoter and reseller either :)
<wolfspraul>
their business is to source all sorts of little hacker support stuff for 2 USD and sell it for 10-20 USD
<wolfspraul>
they need a lot, and little things
<wolfspraul>
I think they are very hesitating to take anything above a certain pricepoint, because their entire business is not setup for that
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering how they do the math on support, for example
<wolfspraul>
or returns
<wolfspraul>
they may only include items they can source from at least 2 sources
<wolfspraul>
m1 is just a total misfit, if my thinking is even remotey accurate
<wolfspraul>
remotely
<wolfspraul>
that's like asking Mercedes to sell some new soda you've developed. just total nonsense.
<wpwrak>
maybe a scooter :)
<wpwrak>
but they, they made the A1 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I said 'soda' :-)
<wolfspraul>
matee tee with special sports flavor
<wpwrak>
M1 is electronics :)
<wolfspraul>
yes but again, my outside thinking tells me it's a win-loose
<wolfspraul>
I send an email, I get nothing back: done
<wolfspraul>
over the last months I've collected lots of promising links and leads in the music scene
<wpwrak>
yeah. if you already knocked on their door and got no reaction, then there's little point in insisting
<wolfspraul>
I find it funny how those hacker supply companies turn lemons into lemonade for example with DIP connectors
<wolfspraul>
they just leave them unsoldered (=they save money), and market it as a first 'hacker test' after receiving the kit
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wolfspraul>
very nice
<wolfspraul>
they do know how to serve their customers
<wolfspraul>
and yes, I agree
<wolfspraul>
1) DIP is expensive
<wolfspraul>
2) their customers will actually feel *better* if they first have to solder some connectors to their new breakout board
<wolfspraul>
so it's a win-win
<wolfspraul>
I am just very realistic (I think) on the business of those companies. they are doing a good job, growing, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but m1 is a total total misfit
<wolfspraul>
from all angles :-)
<wolfspraul>
I remember going with Sebastien to the segor shop in Berlin
<wolfspraul>
of course it doesn't fit
<wolfspraul>
"everything complete?" "how can we sell our 10 EUR connectors with 90% margin then?"
<wolfspraul>
if you walk around that store and look at the stuff they sell, you immediately realize something like m1 fits like oil in water there
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
we will include segor in our marketing, of course. if they want it we are more than happy to sell to them. but somehow from the business model I doubt it fits.
<wolfspraul>
we'll find the places where it really does fit, I'm sure
<wolfspraul>
but the ones specializing in overpriced hacker supplies won't be it, imho
<wolfspraul>
maybe the ones specializing in overpriced musician & DJ equipment :-)
<wpwrak>
there should be plenty of these :)
<wolfspraul>
that's actually a sometimes overlooked side effect of the Arduino 'success', that they lowered the expected price point of hacker stuff to 20 USD
<wolfspraul>
which is deadly, no more innovation possible there, for anybody
<wolfspraul>
in the 80's when people bought their PCs, and all peripherals they could get their hands on, regular folks saved for months and spent thousands on those machines
<wolfspraul>
and what could they do with then? very little
<wolfspraul>
but they believed in the future, there was something exciting there, so they save and spent thousands
<wolfspraul>
and this allowed the computer industry to grow
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: sure i agree, just wondering how they react now that see arduino can be connected and be "usfeull" to the M1
<wolfspraul>
Arduino is economically killing any chance the hackers may ever have to create something great and lasting
<wolfspraul>
I actually like companies like buglabs who try to keep their stuff valuable
<wolfspraul>
it's amazing how little the modern hacker values his time
<wolfspraul>
must be in the pennies now
<wolfspraul>
so anyway, we cannot change this
<wolfspraul>
the hacker scene will find out that none of their suppliers has any funds to do anything interesting :-)
<wolfspraul>
or maybe not
<wolfspraul>
"price goes down" also always means, to an extent, that that industry is dead. if it is not able to establish new higher-price products as successors.
<wolfspraul>
maybe all of Atmel is acquired one day and cut to pieces
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
there were some rumors already, it's not a very profitable semiconductor for sure, and I don't know where their capital for innovation should come from
<wolfspraul>
for sure not from the Arduino community, even if they buy another 100 times more Arduinos...
<wolfspraul>
isn't it amazing that a sandwich in San Francisco costs as much as an Arduino board?
<wolfspraul>
I think that means you are better off starting a bio sandwich bar, than making Arduinos
<kristianpaul>
he
<wolfspraul>
seriously
<wolfspraul>
think about it
<wolfspraul>
even returns and customer support are much easier with sandwiches :-)
<wolfspraul>
I am serious.
<wolfspraul>
I would rather open a bio sandwich bar than make Arduinos.
<wolfspraul>
I am pretty sure I would make more money with my sandwiches, and have more fun.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: step 1: launch M1. step 2: wait for the cash trucks to roll in. step 3: acquire atmel. step 4: kill avr and arduino.
<wolfspraul>
argh, no way acquire Atmel
<wolfspraul>
they have some good analog chips though, I think
<wolfspraul>
that seems to be what keeps them alive
<wpwrak>
or maybe step 1: open a sandwich bar. then proceed with step 2 :)
<wolfspraul>
true? I am not sure...
<wpwrak>
dunno what atmel sell. they have a bewildering variety of things.
<wolfspraul>
yes :-)
<wpwrak>
the AVRs may be important, though. i can imagine them in lots of industrial control devices as well.
<wolfspraul>
ON Semiconductor tried to buy them in 2008
<wolfspraul>
the knocking on the door...
<wolfspraul>
that bid was rejected
<wpwrak>
interesting
<wolfspraul>
anyway the 20 USD pricepoint of Arduinos does have, imho, this side effect I am describing
<wolfspraul>
that on one hand it shows how people value their own time (compared to the rise of PCs in the 80s), and on the other hand it means nobody in the supply chain will ever have any serious capital to do interesting things
<wolfspraul>
which is sad, but what can you do
<wolfspraul>
they should come out with an uber-Arduino for 99 USD, as a start
<wolfspraul>
and then 499 USD
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
create a new hype. escape the arduino trap :)
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, no trap. I like that community.
<wolfspraul>
but I think the 20 USD trap is something that is hard to get out of
<wolfspraul>
it's all based on that now, even the ecosystem companies like adafruit/sparkfun etc. who live on selling 2 USD stuff for 10-20USD
<wpwrak>
learn from apple - make it cool :)
<wolfspraul>
yes of course. 'cool' as in spending time to explain it to regular people.
<wolfspraul>
HTC just bought that headphone company, did you read that?
<wolfspraul>
Dr. Dres Beats
<wpwrak>
maybe throw in shiny plastic :)
<wolfspraul>
for > 500 million USD
<wolfspraul>
those headphones retail for 180 USD
<wolfspraul>
and the expensive ones for up to 600 USD (!)
<wolfspraul>
that's a business
<wpwrak>
the one with gold-plated cables
<wolfspraul>
or whatever other marketing gimmick
<wpwrak>
still nothing compared to that ethernet cable, but a good start
<wolfspraul>
like celebrity-endorsed, or whatever. limited edition, special color, special 'acoustics' (patented and secret), etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
my point is - that's a *business*
<wpwrak>
proprietary speed of sound
<wolfspraul>
so with m1 let's see how far we can take it
<wolfspraul>
I want to reach to music lovers
<wolfspraul>
and really do my best to offer them something amazing, and support it well
<wpwrak>
one weak spot is currently patch design documentation
<wolfspraul>
499 USD is already dangerously low, but I think we can do a great job for that pricepoint, so I think it's right
<wolfspraul>
oh definitely
<wolfspraul>
btw, for the hackers, also some verilog 'hello world' equivalent
<wolfspraul>
yes lots to do
<wpwrak>
and packaging and pushing of the SDK
<wolfspraul>
for the music lovers especially, make it work better and better for them
<wolfspraul>
ignore the megahertz chasers
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
learn from AMD and invent "equivalent MHz" :)
<wolfspraul>
megahertz chasers were willing to spend thousands in the 80's
<wolfspraul>
by now they are so cheap anything more than a few USD will make them prefer going to the movies instead
<wpwrak>
they still exist. hardcore gamers.
<wolfspraul>
yes, true. that niche is still around.
<wolfspraul>
but for the most part the megahertz chasers that are left are terribly cheap
<wolfspraul>
which makes sense actually, not much more to expect from more megahertz
<wolfspraul>
I think there is a lot of wisdom in people's decisions
<wolfspraul>
we just have to stop being focused on the remaining megahertz chasers and then complaining they are so cheap ;-)
<wpwrak>
we can't give them tons of mhz anyway
<wolfspraul>
I think it's a good time to branch out with a 100% free platform
<wolfspraul>
my first PC had 4.77 mhz
<wolfspraul>
man was I happy when my second one had 8 or 16 (forgot)
<wolfspraul>
that was badly needed
<wolfspraul>
but today - nah. what the nanonote or m1 need is better/smarter software.
<wpwrak>
hmm, don't remember how much that schneider pc had. may have been 8
<wolfspraul>
on my notebook I still want a bit more performance, especially for video editing.
<wolfspraul>
schneider, ha
<wpwrak>
yeah. mhz, it has plenty :)
<wolfspraul>
464?
<wpwrak>
464 too. but then also the pc1512
<wolfspraul>
also I think picture sizes from still or video cameras will continue to go up (in resolution)
<wolfspraul>
so on my notebook I still want a bit more, but Intel will surely deliver that
<wolfspraul>
in embedded it's more about good vertical optimization
<wpwrak>
still may reach saturation somewhere around 10 Mpixels. people who are serious already select for sensor size more than anything else.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
but you will see screens with 4kx4k and even more
<wolfspraul>
but anyway, on the embedded side it's all about vertical integration now
<wpwrak>
video still has a bit to go until they all reach 1080p. then they'll have to wait until tvs make the next step. but first, we'll probably see a lot of 3D.
<kristianpaul>
i personally like the no led and buttons part
<wpwrak>
hmm, sebastien made his own little libc, too :) milkymist/software/include/base/
<kristianpaul>
yup, also libs for tftp, arp ... and counting
<kristianpaul>
fat ;)
<wpwrak>
seems that he had to increase the feature set of rtems by a few orders of magnitude :)
<wpwrak>
now .. where's a patch that takes a lot of time to compile ?
<wpwrak>
wonders if the code is 64 bit clean
<wpwrak>
ah, nice. works :)
<wpwrak>
hmm. my pc compiles the largest patch i could find in 10 ms ...
<wpwrak>
Aderassi\ -\ Making\ time.fnp
<wpwrak>
patch compiler compiled with gcc
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, there are 54 patches in milkymist one rc3.
<wpwrak>
actually, it's only 2 ms. i let it do it 1000 times. takes 2 seconds.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, do you have -O in your gcc parameters :)
<xiangfu>
there is '-O9' in flickernoise
<wpwrak>
naw, no optimization
<wpwrak>
i want to profile the critter. so slow is good :)
<xiangfu>
yes.
<wpwrak>
okay, some take 3 ms. at least something :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what's the result with the nor corruption actually?
<wolfspraul>
are some tests still running or is it concluded for now?
<wpwrak>
still working on the baseline :-(
<wpwrak>
is was about to send a jubilatory mail and just had to do one more sanity check. then i didn't get any corruption at all, meaning that the "good" results may be meaningless
<wpwrak>
so i went back to the drawing board ...
<wpwrak>
wait, lemme check in the latest data
<wpwrak>
hehe, that''s what i call luck. just got one more ;-)
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
how about reworking one board to the gates+4.4v reset ic solution we plan for rc4, and testing against that as well?
<wolfspraul>
if you don't want to risk yours, Adam can pick one, do the rework, and ship it to you
<wolfspraul>
I want to give Adam a little more time to work through the entire batch, but slowly he may be ready for some more design/investigative work
<wpwrak>
i can try that. but i need a bit more data. the times are spread quite widely.
<wolfspraul>
it sounds like you have a really good setup for testing now
<wolfspraul>
we can pick a second board, rework that
<wolfspraul>
otherwise we may fool ourselves and waste time
<wolfspraul>
of course that can happen with a 2nd board too, but I rather have some more stable foundation to stand upon
<wolfspraul>
i.e. not rework the board under investigation too much
<wpwrak>
i think it would make sense to rework the one from which the reference data comes. otherwise, we have nothing to compare with
<wpwrak>
"with/without corruption" means with corruption that prevents standby from loading. sometimes, also some of the leading 0xffff words gets zeroed, but the FPGA just skips that
<wpwrak>
so my plan is to do ten runs. then do a "clean" shutdown and see what happens
<wpwrak>
after that, go back to dirty shutdown and see if corruption returns
<wpwrak>
that makes this messy is that there may be hidden variables that have a great influence on the corruption probability
<wpwrak>
ah, how many times did adam typically cycle those rc3 boards when testing ?
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
ok I don't fully understand the data right now
<wolfspraul>
need some real thinking :-)
<wolfspraul>
Adam cycles 10 times
<wolfspraul>
unplug DC jack, boot, let it render 30 seconds
<wolfspraul>
when we verified some boards he cycles 100 times
<wolfspraul>
cycled
<wolfspraul>
but now it's always 10
<wpwrak>
how often did he 100 cycles ?
<wpwrak>
and on how many boards did he 10 cycles ? 50 ? 60 ? 70 ?
<wpwrak>
anyway, if he did ~1000-2000 cycles in total and encountered NOR corruption twice, that would correspond to the kind of rate i get
<wpwrak>
okay, the inefficient string ops don't seem to affect the run time much
<wolfspraul>
I want those 4 buttons from the brochure, and the spec table needs cleanup.
<wpwrak>
whee ! :)
<wolfspraul>
and need to check some other browsers too, indeed
<wpwrak>
the price is too small (at least in konqueror)
<wolfspraul>
i'm mostly on Chromium nowadays, Firefox/Iceweasel is slowly loosing me
<wolfspraul>
yes the price is small
<wpwrak>
let's see what it looks like in firefox ...
<wolfspraul>
I hope I don't need the *pro* version of creloaded to make it bigger
<wpwrak>
;-)))
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wpwrak>
"we have the smallest prices" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
that's a 'valuable' (ahem) feature, right?
<wolfspraul>
might move it to the pro version?
<wpwrak>
maybe mention that shipping isn't included in the price ?
<wolfspraul>
where?
<wolfspraul>
it talks about shipping at the top a little
<wolfspraul>
I hope people at least skim the first paragraph
<wolfspraul>
I do need to spend some more time on the spec table, I think that's the next thing
<wolfspraul>
then those 4 buttons a lot of people liked
<wpwrak>
yes, but it's not unambiguous whether shipping is included or not
<wpwrak>
also, you talk about alternative payment options but don't mention the standard ones
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
will write "In addition to VISA and MasterCard, ..."
<wpwrak>
if you don't want to mention them there, then maybe move all payment info to the checkout ?
<wolfspraul>
nah the others are not automated
<wolfspraul>
not now
<wolfspraul>
will do that after ripping out creloaded :-)
<wolfspraul>
so if someone wants to pay with paypal, it's manual
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
the whole layout of the order/price area looks a bit disconnected. not sure if you have much power over that, though
<wolfspraul>
we have add to cart twice, I hope that's enough
<wpwrak>
yeah, top and bottom :)
<wpwrak>
maybe add a pop-up when you close the tab/window ? "DO YOU REALLY NOT WANT TO ORDER NOW ??!??" ;-)
<wpwrak>
for the specs table, do you want to change the content or just the formatting ?
<wpwrak>
(because the content looks good to me)
<wpwrak>
oh, does the accessories photo actually have the M1 hidden somewhere ? if not, maybe gimp it in ?
<wolfspraul>
nah accessories is just that
<wolfspraul>
the picture is of bad quality, if anything I could retake it
<wolfspraul>
for the spec table, no, I need to go over it
<wolfspraul>
the number of included patches is missing
<wolfspraul>
or the fact that any are included
<wolfspraul>
the list of accessories is missing
<wpwrak>
ah, i see. yes.
<wolfspraul>
the fact that we will provide regular and free updates to both patches and visuals is missing
<wolfspraul>
sorry I meant to both software and patches
<wpwrak>
perhaps the patches shouldn't even be in the specs table then
<wolfspraul>
reading the specs should make sense for a musician
<wolfspraul>
maybe number of included patches should even be the first line ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I need to think about it
<wolfspraul>
what I have there now is just a draft for me
<wolfspraul>
54 patches included, that's a 'spec'
<wolfspraul>
it could also be 5, or 200, or 2000
<wolfspraul>
but it's 54 right now
<wolfspraul>
15 camera patches
<wolfspraul>
also I don't like the "up to 1280x1024" thing
<wolfspraul>
to me that's misleading
<wpwrak>
it sounds as if patches were something expensive
<wolfspraul>
we need a bit more honesty
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wpwrak>
also OSC is a little misleading, isn't it ?
<wolfspraul>
need to find out more
<wpwrak>
(or Linux ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the OSC experience is definitely not good/usable right now, that's for sure
<wolfspraul>
yes, similar to Linux :-)
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand I think both should be mentioned
<wolfspraul>
because a) they work b) we are serious about them
<wolfspraul>
we should mention them, just needs the right form
<wpwrak>
(osc) oh, then it's even worse than i imagined. i thought it worked but needed extra hardware you may not be carrying around with you normally
<wolfspraul>
not sure what 'worked' means
<wolfspraul>
I think it's at alpha/demo/prototype level
<wolfspraul>
yes you need another device, like an android phone or so (or iphone). some osc client.
<wpwrak>
maybe "flexible and upgradeable - we're adding more features, downloadable over the internet (linux, osc, ...)"
<wolfspraul>
then you need to find a way to reach the m1 over ethernet
<wolfspraul>
whatever works in osc is so difficult I don't think it's relevant to a regular user today
<wpwrak>
yeah :) the phone you may expect to need. but then you start to wonder where the m1 has its wifi :)
<wpwrak>
is OSC very popular ?
<wolfspraul>
don't know, seems a lot of people like it / have high hopes in it
<wolfspraul>
midi replacement?
<wolfspraul>
I don't know
<wolfspraul>
the thing is - I don't think the actual experience on m1 is any good right now
<wolfspraul>
I'm glad to be proven wrong
<wolfspraul>
the 1 osc 'proof video' (:-)) Xiangfu was able to make has no sound
<wolfspraul>
I asked the other day why it had no sound, the answer was "osc confuses audio-in"
<wolfspraul>
I left it there :-)
<wolfspraul>
I do not understand the osc experience on m1 very much/at all right now, so I have a hard time selling it as a feature.
<wolfspraul>
but I think it will get better and eventually it will be really cool :-)
<wpwrak>
definitely an item for the "future features" list :)
<wpwrak>
extensibility is a two-edged sword, though. on one hand, it says the platform will not go stale quickly, on the other hand, it says that you're rushing the launch before the full feature set is ready.
<wolfspraul>
there are good osc clients for iphone/android, that's definitely something to tap into to control m1. but in which way exactly, and what those clients can do exactly - I don't know
<wpwrak>
but then, perhaps it's okay to slow things down a bit. delay the impatient a bit
<wolfspraul>
m1 is ready for real-life use
<wolfspraul>
we do need pioneering real-life users now
<wolfspraul>
and they will give us some tough nuts to crack, for sure
<wolfspraul>
I am still hesitating to take m1 to some restaurants I have here that offered to test it for a while :-)
<wolfspraul>
but eventually I have to get over the fear and just do it. and the discoveries won't be pretty ;-)
<wpwrak>
for some people, "feature X not implemented" becomes "i won't buy until X is implemented". if you hadn't mentioned X, they wouldn't have missed it. but of course, maybe you don't want these in the first round anyway :)
<wolfspraul>
no I do think we should mention OSC and Linux
<wolfspraul>
and the 2 GB memory card (even though it's inaccessible right now)
<wolfspraul>
hiding those things is too far to the other extreme
<wolfspraul>
you cannot demand the casual reader to pull the news out
<wolfspraul>
many people did a lot of good work to get linux to run on m1, for example
<wolfspraul>
it should be mentioned
<wolfspraul>
we know a lot more is needed, but that's not a reason to hide what we have achieved so far
<wpwrak>
i don't disagree :)
<wolfspraul>
I will reorder this table
<wolfspraul>
the stuff that works and is relevant to musician/dj/vj users at the top
<wolfspraul>
the stuff that is more in the megahertz/megabit show-off circus, a bit more to the bottom
<wolfspraul>
power consumption and ambient noise information will be above 32 MB nor flash
<wpwrak>
hmm, ambient noise. that's tricky ;-)
<wolfspraul>
why?
<wpwrak>
oh .. and when you hover over the M1 picture, you get an HTML injection attack ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I am planning to say something like "ambient noise: silent"
<wolfspraul>
is that ok?
<wpwrak>
okay, silent works :)
<wpwrak>
maybe add "no fan" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I think silent is ok
<wolfspraul>
how about 0dB ?
<wolfspraul>
that's probably inaccurate
<wpwrak>
0 dB is where it gets tricky ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I actually don't know
<wolfspraul>
yes, probably inaccurate
<wpwrak>
there must be some noise, e.g., from the caps. just very very faint.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I think I will say "silent"
<wpwrak>
silent (no fan) ?
<wolfspraul>
yes I could say that, but it looks techie/suspicious
<wolfspraul>
silent is silent
<wpwrak>
"no fan" also means that it doesn't go from "slient" to "noisy bearing failure"
<wolfspraul>
ask anybody what silent is and they will know
<wpwrak>
there are "silent" PCs with fans ...
<wolfspraul>
silence is the lack of audible sound
<wolfspraul>
well, that's marketing silent
<wpwrak>
i think even musicians haven't been spared the experience of a PC fan going bad ...
<wpwrak>
yes :)
<wolfspraul>
the definition of silence is correct, and m1 matches
<wpwrak>
"not quite a noisy as the rest. under certain conditions."
<wolfspraul>
"lack of audible sound"
<wolfspraul>
I do need and want to get this right since I am talking to musicians
<wpwrak>
"none of out test subjects (all construction workers) could hear a thing"
<wolfspraul>
should ask next time I'm in front of a serious musician
<wpwrak>
i think musicians understand the concept of a fan quite well :)
<wolfspraul>
"what is silence"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
oh you may be right that they may have been burnt by marketing silent before
<wpwrak>
plus, not having a fan, not even a "silent" one, also means one frequently failing item less
<wolfspraul>
buy some device only to find out that they cannot use it in the studio as intended
<wpwrak>
i think especially musicians would have a lot of different answers to "what is silent" :)
<wolfspraul>
so maybe silent (no fan) in the end, argh
<wolfspraul>
it looks wrong
<wpwrak>
victory ! ;-)
<wolfspraul>
just 'silent' is better
<wolfspraul>
but ok
<wolfspraul>
no fan
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
yes they would have a lot of answers for "what is silence" but that's why I'm asking. what would they expect to read in the data sheet of a device if they want to make sure it makes no sound at all...
<wolfspraul>
maybe in a real studio, they would move all electronics out into a separate room? don't know
<wolfspraul>
I will ask
<wolfspraul>
just curious what is the best way to describe the m1 ambient noise characteristics, so it's immediately clear
<wolfspraul>
(to a musician)
<wpwrak>
hmm, i see that the "milkymist" logo has changed quite a bit on milkymist.org
<wolfspraul>
you mean that whole pixelized 'milkymist' text?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
and there's no trace of the old logo
<wolfspraul>
old?
<wolfspraul>
the 'm' only is the new one, so far Sebastien seemed ok with it
<wolfspraul>
it was designed by Christopher Adams, we use it on the stickers, etc.
<wpwrak>
okay ... doesn't look like the black pixelated text on milkymist.org ... even though it's the same M :)
<wpwrak>
(more or less)
<wpwrak>
i guess color and having the whole name written make the difference
<wpwrak>
since the whole "Milklymist" is "artsy", one assumes it's part of the logo
<wpwrak>
maybe sneak it somewhere into the shop page, for integrity
<wolfspraul>
nah, I dont' like it. it's unreadable.
<wolfspraul>
I have a new shop design in mind anyway, basically a big M1 picture in the middle, and a bunch of stuff around it on all 4 sides
<wolfspraul>
including NanoNote logo, NanoNote itself, etc.
<wolfspraul>
should be nice
<wolfspraul>
first I finish this landing page in the old creloaded now, need to get it done asap
<wolfspraul>
what we have there now is not bad, nice drawing, nice youtube videos
<wolfspraul>
although sebastien correctly said that a nice unboxing video and a nice camera video are missing
<wpwrak>
(m1 in the middle, rest around) dunno. that suggests a semantical connection that doesn't exist
<wolfspraul>
it does, nanonote as m1 accessory, milkymist the cpu etc.
<wolfspraul>
the center
<wolfspraul>
is ok with me
<wolfspraul>
no worries it will look good in the end :-)
<wpwrak>
but the NN isn't just an M1 accessory. it's an independent product.
<wpwrak>
in fact, it doesn't even make much sense as an M1 accessory
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: sure sure, it's just an idea for a design, no worries
<wolfspraul>
we can also put the two side by side as on the current homepage. I don't think there is any special agenda in all this, besides looking clean and elegant, and just being 'the shop'.
<wolfspraul>
also I want to make the shop mostly/all static html pages, committed into git so others can easily fork their own shops ;-)
<wpwrak>
heh :) static also means fast. good when the /. crowd comes :)
<wpwrak>
heh, the pfpu instruction format is funny :) each instruction is in fact split, with the 2nd half in a future code word. nice idea :)