<wolfspraul> does anybody know what software a typical VJ would use?
<wpwrak> the vj of the future: flickernoise !! ;-)
<wolfspraul> yeah well
<wolfspraul> in the meantime I need to answer questions from reporters such as "what does this compare to?" :-)
<wpwrak> ah, tricky. i'm afraid i don't know the answer to that ... but i couldn't let the opportunity slip by :)
<wpwrak> thinking of it, you don't actually see too many vjs showing off their performance. quite often, they're somehow invisible. dunno whether they just politely cede the the spotlight to the dj and work from a dark corner or whether they just bring their pre-programmed macbook and go home
<kristianpaul> i bet is no just only one specific software
<wpwrak> yeah, i kinda wonder whether it's a relatively small set or if there's a lot of variety. structurally, i would expect that the average vj doesn't have a lot of choices. but the programs may offer a large number of effects.
<wolfspraul> lekernel: what software does a typical (non-Milkymist) VJ use?
<lekernel> modul8, resolume, quartz composer
<lekernel> vvvv
<lekernel> sometimes processing, but less often than the others
<wolfspraul> great, thanks!
<wolfspraul> argh, he's gone again :-)
<wolfspraul> next question would have been how Milkymist One compares to Edirol CG-8
<wpwrak> he's very volatile these days :)
<wpwrak> three more events left from the Great Milkymist World Tour. so i think he'll be busy for the next two weeks.
<wpwrak> ah, here he is :) wolfgang was wondering how M1 compares to Edirol CG-8
<lekernel> possibility for low latency live video sampling
<lekernel> much cheaper
<lekernel> lower power consumption (CG8 is 80W)
<lekernel> more effects
<lekernel> open source
<lekernel> atm the M1 doesn't take still pictures like the CG8 does, but it's not too hard to add
<lekernel> the main point is the live video sampling
<lekernel> very fluid, and low response time
<lekernel> PC based solutions have a hard time beating that
<wpwrak> apropos low latency. i think you haven't responded to this idea yet: would you consider the M1 audio quality sufficient that a DJ would be willing to pass the main sound output (music more or less ready for amplification and speaker) through the M1 ?
<wpwrak> if yes, you could even delay the sound depending on the video latency, and thus achieve true zero apparent latency
<lekernel> with the new wolfson codec, maybe
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: http://www.roland.com/products/en/CG-8/ also gives another PR lead: the Club Systems International magazine
<wpwrak> excellent. sometimes, one may even want to time-shift the sound a bit before the video, e.g., because of additional processing stages, speed of sound, and intra-cranial processing delays and mismatches
<stekern> add some reverb and it can be used as a karaoke-machine as well ;)
<wpwrak> the CG-8's description does indeed sound pretty lame compared to the M1 ;-)
<wpwrak> stekern: and you thought waterboarding was bad ...
<stekern> waterboarding?
<wpwrak> stekern: a form of torture
<stekern> aah, yes I see, wikipedia has enlightened me... yes that seems like a mild form of torture... at least in comparison to karaoke ;)
<stekern> what wolson codec btw? is that something that is planned for rc4?
<stekern> +f
<roh> nope. its on rc3 already. the ac97 audio codec was replaced by one from wolfson which is of much butter audio quality
<stekern> roh: yes, I found that out myself by looking at the schematics
<roh> wpwrak: i think one needs a 'perfect match' for a 'haptic' user experience.. some mm1-control-board to match the cg8 really
<roh> e.g. some oem'ed midi controller of good quality and fitting labels on it
<stekern> i still wouldn't really call that "hifi" though
<roh> stekern: hifi is much less than that
<roh> but yes. reasonable dj's will never feed the main line to the amps through a vj device. simply because its not symmetric.
<stekern> roh: hence the ""'s :)
<roh> anyhow. delay isnt acceptable (and not needed)
<wpwrak> roh: (haptic) yup. probably at some point in time, a bundle with OEMed MIDI peripherals would make sense
<lekernel> nah, just build everything into one device
<lekernel> and add a small LCD screen
<wpwrak> (audio through vj) what do you mean with symmetric ?
<lekernel> but that's for way later
<wpwrak> lekernel: that's the hard way ;-) but yes, neater
<roh> lekernel: input devices: mechanics iss really hard and expensive
<lekernel> I know, and that's why we don't have it now
<roh> wpwrak: xlr sockets etc
<roh> lekernel: ack. sure. i know. thats why i suggested using a 'known good' midi controller to add that feature
<wpwrak> that'll be useful for figuring what works and what doesn't anyway
<wolfspraul> both are ac97, but before it was a National chip, now Wolfson
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't blame the National chip per se, it may also be our environment. but at the bottom line the Wolfson ac97 on our board reduced audio noise by 90%
<wolfspraul> [edirol comparison] - great
<wolfspraul> what is 'low latency' btw, how many ms ?
<wolfspraul> how much on m1, how much with cg-8 ?
<roh> wolfspraul: i dunno if the cg-8 supports 'being looped in' .. it seems to have an input, but i see no output for audio
<lekernel> milkymist has ~60ms on average
<lekernel> cg8 ... I don't know, and I'm not sure if it makes much sense (the M1 low latency is particularly great with the video-in)
<lekernel> btw, the cg8 is basically a PC running Linux
<lekernel> with a nice enclosure
<lekernel> and controls
<wolfspraul> wow, 3500 USD ?
<roh> ah. i see. already wondered about the mechanical size (thickness) .. so its an itx or so board in there?
<wolfspraul> how many can they sell per year? still selling?
<wolfspraul> "no longer available"
<wolfspraul> discontinued?
<lekernel> yes, I think so
<lekernel> and yes, it was very expensive
<lekernel> it still is (there are second hands units on eBay and other sites sometimes)
<lekernel> I don't know how many they sold. I will probably ask.
<wolfspraul> so they merged the technology into some other product?
<lekernel> I don't think so... seems they simply stopped doing this kind of stuff
<lekernel> from my understanding they concentrate on video mixers only now
<wolfspraul> hard to compete with notebooks
<lekernel> yes, probably
<lekernel> we should clearly explain the advantages of the M1 over netbooks
<wolfspraul> don't hold back
<wolfspraul> :-)
<roh> 'boots faster'
<wolfspraul> power consumption, 5W instead of 20-30 minimum
<wolfspraul> low latency, 60ms instead of ?
<roh> 'can run from battery'
<wolfspraul> easier to setup and maintain
<roh> 'small, light and easy to carry'
<wpwrak> lekernel: by the way, i think my new scheduler is good to go now. the overall speedup isn't as great as i had hoped, but i think now most of the slowness is in the parser.
<wolfspraul> roh: what boots faster? boot times on notebooks may not be that bad, depending on setup
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: no virus scanner needed ;-)
<wolfspraul> midi and dmx
<lekernel> low latency video input is the #1 thing to stress imo
<wolfspraul> video-in (could probably use a cheap usb cam on a notebook though)
<roh> wolfspraul: well.. it takes minutes to boot a full os, and you need a app which need loading time also. the mm1 is ready in seconds
<wolfspraul> the notebook is definitely far more flexible, or at least it's all different
<lekernel> I saw many shows using the camera with very noticeable latency (I guesstimate more than 150ms or so)
<lekernel> and low FPS
<lekernel> the M1 output is extremely fluid and responsive compared to such things
<wolfspraul> ok, 150ms, good number to know/use
<lekernel> it's just a very rough estimation
<wolfspraul> also over time I hope m1 is also known for its large community of people and free works that are easily shared with other m1 users
<roh> i think i all boils down to 'making use of it' very easy and reliable. if somebody has fun using sth. the person will much more likely spend money (see apple) and or ignore some minor problems
<lekernel> 60ms average on M1 is generally accurate
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (laptop) and you can work on your effects while traveling
<wolfspraul> but that will take some time to really kick in, both in software (upload/download), and also in actual use
<wolfspraul> m1 resolution (today) 640x480, notebook easily 1024x768 or more, HD even?
<lekernel> yes