<wolfspraul> sorry was offline.. ok nothing in backlog :-)
<wolfspraul> minimilky sounds great
<wolfspraul> I think I have my work cut out for me for rc4, I can put all my efforts into that.
<wpwrak> this looks like a nice place to ... place M1: http://www.soundonsound.com/information
<wpwrak> "with in-depth reviews of the latest music-making equipment and photos that inspire insane depths of gear lust"
<wolfspraul> if we think about changing the nor chip, especially if it gets bigger and bigger with microprocessors and memcards etc. then we may also first take a look at the boot options of artix-7
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes, thanks! good link
<wolfspraul> there were lots of good links here recently, need to catch up
<wolfspraul> if we find quality magazines, I think we should also try some ads
<wpwrak> oh, that's soooo traditional ;-)
<wolfspraul> that's a way to keep high quality independent journalists fed, so I like it. if we can at least break even, everybody wins.
<wpwrak> heh, why not sponsor them directly for quality articles. makes sure the money doesn't just fill the pockets of shareholders :)
<wolfspraul> don't understand
<wolfspraul> that's not how it works
<wolfspraul> you cannot 'sponsor' a journalist
<wpwrak> ;-)
<wpwrak> i think they do this with bloggers, though :)
<wolfspraul> maybe in China you can :-) but they have no western concept of journalism here
<wolfspraul> then there is no reach probably
<wolfspraul> ads in quality magazines are good
<wolfspraul> that goes towards the journalists
<wolfspraul> so far I've found xlr8r.com and de-bug.de
<wolfspraul> maybe soundonsound is another one
<wolfspraul> I read an interview with a driver in a provincial Chinese city who is driving journalists for 20 years. his bottom line
<wolfspraul> "the foreign journalists come here to work, they want to go to the hot spot right away, are interested in the story"
<wolfspraul> "our Chinese journalist first want to go to a good restaurant and eat for a long time, then do some sightseeing"
<wolfspraul> that's from a driver who is driving journalists for 20 years :-)
<wpwrak> the french call this "savoir vivre" :)
<wolfspraul> well
<wolfspraul> the downside is that the Chinese journalists will write whatever story comes "from above" as their own later
<wolfspraul> since they don't know a thing about what really went on anyway, spending their time in a restaurant instead
<wolfspraul> but of course, you are right. if they wouldn't do that they would loose their jobs very quickly.
<wolfspraul> so anyway, I am thinking about ads in quality music magazines
<wpwrak> well, why not. i have no idea how they work.
<wolfspraul> what about this minimilky thing?
<wolfspraul> was there a renewed discussion?
<wolfspraul> maybe I check the backlogs...
<wolfspraul> I like the idea of making the cheapest possible entry point into the Milkymist world
<wolfspraul> or pointing to it if it already exists (subsidized dev board)
<wolfspraul> ahh, there's a big thread on the mlist
<wpwrak> i'm a bit worried about M1 and m1 competing against each other. of course, if m1 is in fact M2 (i.e., discard things that turned out to be useless), then there's no problem
<wolfspraul> nah
<wolfspraul> let me read the thread first what proposals are swirling around
<wolfspraul> If someone is passionate about something, they should just do it.
<wolfspraul> the only thing that turns me off is if someone is passionate about someone else doing something, so they have a good time leaning back and watching.
<wolfspraul> my focus is on rc4 now
<wolfspraul> make it as good as possible
<wolfspraul> lots of ideas :-)
<wolfspraul> he, ok
<wolfspraul> read the thread now
<wolfspraul> that feels like DesperateMist
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> yeah :)
<wolfspraul> not even 5% of what is possible with M1 works today
<wpwrak> exactly
<wolfspraul> let's just simplify that to "most things people want to do don't work"
<roh> hm. dont use upper/lowercase to separate the 2. that will fail and lead to confusion
<wolfspraul> and instead of focusing on that, let's just randomly change every part on the hardware, maybe a better mix comes out in the end? :-)
<wolfspraul> the "bom myth" also shows its ugly head here
<wolfspraul> unbelievabley how you can make people dance around on a "2 usd bom diff"
<wpwrak> roh: chaos and mayhem, just the way i like it (-:C  btw, i'm still waiting for an opportunity to use "mHz" somewhere
<wolfspraul> if we wanted to make a cheap milky entry, we could do the exact same board as today, and leave chips and connectors out
<wolfspraul> I doubt we would sell many though
<wpwrak> that would work a lot better. but then, engineers are cheap, right ? :)
<wolfspraul> I can just say what I do, and that is to:
<wolfspraul> a) continue with rc4
<wolfspraul> make rc4 as good as possible
<wolfspraul> b) watch software continuity above all else
<wolfspraul> not a 1 USD connector
<wpwrak> dunno. if you can really make the price collapse to 20% ... (of course, that would probably even be below BOM cost ;-)
<wolfspraul> c) add features, which are missing on m1 *everywhere*
<wpwrak> yup. agreed on all 3 points
<wolfspraul> we can upgrade hardware (cheaper, better, etc), but without making our house collapse
<wolfspraul> artix-7 is something we should probably look into
<wpwrak> one thing you may want to change is the case production. that shop in berlin seems to be just outrageously expensive.
<wolfspraul> even just to know the pros/cons of upgrading to it
<wolfspraul> one thing I know for sure is that I will not swap in shops that use slave labor and poison the environment
<wpwrak> if you're doing it because you want to direct money to roh, i think everyone will be happier if you just send him a bit of what you're saving by doing it elsewhere :)
<wolfspraul> nah. there is/was no better way. I am selling M1 for 499 USD and that's a price nobody can beat.
<wolfspraul> because it's subsidized by at least 500 USD a unit :-)
<wpwrak> (artix) seems they've been announced mere days ago ?
<wolfspraul> well, it's being worked on for years
<wolfspraul> a logical next step
<wpwrak> (subsidized) counting R&D ? or just parts and labour ?
<wolfspraul> hard to pin down
<wolfspraul> a mix of unpaid work, paid, friends, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul> you should know :-)
<wolfspraul> since all major M1 hardware bugfixes recently came from you
<wpwrak> so you really mean that each M1 sold actually makes you poorer. hmm ...
<wolfspraul> nah
<wolfspraul> of course not
<wolfspraul> I have 40 in stock now
<wolfspraul> if I sell those for 500 USD that's 20k USD and that's an additional 20k USD in my account, of course
<wpwrak> (hw fixes) naw, adam found a bunch too. he just doesn't write so much about them ;-)
<wolfspraul> so I think we are on a very good track with rc4
<wolfspraul> I will just continue :-)
<wolfspraul> cost down - absolutely
<wolfspraul> we should accelerate the MMU and Linux
<wolfspraul> if we want to remove the NOR chip, that will cost *A LOT*
<wolfspraul> let's say the chip is 10 USD now
<wolfspraul> and the replacement costs 3 USD
<wolfspraul> the difference is 7 USD
<wolfspraul> ahem
<wolfspraul> should I even start the math?
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> it will take us *thousands* of units in sales to make back our switching costs
<wolfspraul> totally absurd
<wolfspraul> so we think we will sell thousands more because our bom cost is 7 USD less?
<wolfspraul> ARGH!
<wolfspraul> DesperateMist
<wolfspraul> how about removing Ethernet?
<wolfspraul> the assumption is that people who need it can use a USB-Ethernet dongle?
<wolfspraul> but that would require us to massively improve our USB support
<wpwrak> ether is also a size issue
<wolfspraul> size?
<wpwrak> and yes, USB <- Linux <- MMU ;-)
<wolfspraul> are we looking for things to discuss?
<wolfspraul> who was ever worried about size?
<wpwrak> well, sebastien brought it up. because he wants to use a small envelope :)
<wolfspraul> DesperateMist
<wpwrak> of course, that somehow makes sense. people tend to view product cost and shipping cost as separate items
<wolfspraul> shipping cost?
<wpwrak> of course, you could just silently subsidize the shipping and nobody would know
<wolfspraul> gee
<wolfspraul> the #1 way to reduce shipping cost is to work with distributors
<wolfspraul> forget shipping costs
<wpwrak> yes, that's even better
<wolfspraul> no that's the only way
<wpwrak> brings up product cost, though
<wolfspraul> even if you just ship 10-packs by air, shipping cost goes down a lot
<wolfspraul> not to mention how much it would go down with sea shipments
<wolfspraul> but that is only possible if you have an active distributor who can stock etc.
<wpwrak> custom costs may go up, though
<wolfspraul> you can ship 1 container (40 tons) of goods around the world for ca. 500 USD
<wpwrak> at least in places like argentina :)
<wpwrak> wow
<wolfspraul> the real cost is not shipping, but customs, fees, the last mile, even the unloading at the port because of unions there
<wolfspraul> sometimes the last 2 miles cost more than the 5000 miles before
<wpwrak> sounds familiar :)
<wolfspraul> I think we have a good plan for rc4 right now
<wpwrak> now, how do we get sebastien to channel his enthusiasm into making M1 better ?
<wolfspraul> any new ideas how to improve it?
<wpwrak> USB seems to be pretty high up. or, if he really hates it, maybe an MMU
<wpwrak> problem: we lost lars
<wolfspraul> what do you mean?
<wolfspraul> no I don't think we lost lars
<wolfspraul> this stuff just takes some time until a good thought emerges and a good enough code set too
<wolfspraul> I think lars is very much interested in and following m1, and thinking about ways to contribute/collaborate/hack
<wpwrak> i see two paths towards USB: 1) implement whatever features are needed in RTEMS/FN. 2) make linux work and use that. 2) is of course a lot more complex and riskier, but it avoids sinking work into a dead-end system
<wolfspraul> oh for sure MMU + LInux
<wpwrak> well, lars has a job now ...
<wolfspraul> but it's easier said than done - Sebastien cannot do everything himself
<wolfspraul> he works for Analog Devices and very much on the same stuf
<wolfspraul> I'm not sure he wants me to talk about it here, so I'll leave it to him to
<wolfspraul> maybe he can even contribute interesting bits and pieces into M1, now in his new ADI function :-)
<wolfspraul> but these things take time
<wolfspraul> I am thinking about what I can and want to do next
<wpwrak> now, when will ADI make FPGAs ? ;-)
<wolfspraul> and that's clearly rc4
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: lars_ should speak for himself
<wolfspraul> but he's not "lost", for sure not
<wpwrak> ah yes, another "feature": make the HEAD of RTEMS (or such ... not entirely sure in which repo this sits) work. there's a) the hang and b) also some build issue. all this means that you can't work on top of HEAD and have a working system.
<wolfspraul> sure I know
<wolfspraul> and we discuss changing this and that chip
<wolfspraul> but we can't keep head building
<wpwrak> not sure if anyone is eager to write new stuff, but in case anyone is, that'll cool them down pretty quickly
<wpwrak> yeah :)
<wolfspraul> there has been no software update in over 3 months
<wolfspraul> we hear solid feedback (still pics, usb midi) but have so far not been able to act upon it
<wolfspraul> now: let's change some chips :-)
<wpwrak> the ability to mess with things on the top would also allow some usability improvements. that would be all sw. maybe someone could get interested.
<wolfspraul> yes sure, I think that will happen eventually
<wolfspraul> one by one
<wolfspraul> a review unit is going to a very serious UK music distributor right now
<wolfspraul> sometimes you have to pick your battles
<wolfspraul> let's see what those guys say
<wpwrak> e.g., i think M1 should rely a lot more on overlays. basically have a "training" mode where you get immediate visual feedback for all that's happening.
<wolfspraul> oh there could be so many things
<wolfspraul> I totally agree
<wolfspraul> most likely the feedback will be a long list and mixture of "missing" features
<wolfspraul> hardware and software
<wolfspraul> and then what?
<wolfspraul> we should pick what is cheapest/easiest for us to do
<wpwrak> dvi seems to be a done deal. so i guess that'll happen
<wolfspraul> ok, let's go through sebastien's list, my take
<wolfspraul> yes, the upgrade to dvi-i looks like a really good idea
<wolfspraul> backward compatible
<wolfspraul> open up new possibilities (of course FPGA will then need to see development)
<wolfspraul> cheap, simple
<wpwrak> image support is a frequently requested feature. that will be messy, because end users expect a certain set of accompanying features. e.g., USB storage, image formats, scaling, aspect ratio handling, ...
<wolfspraul> of course
<wolfspraul> and?
<wolfspraul> it's a pain with those users, right? man. they want stuff to actually work?!
<wolfspraul> unbelievable
<wpwrak> USB MIDI. all the cool kids do USB nowadays.
<wolfspraul> and they all buy Apple? hmm
<wolfspraul> why?
<wpwrak> users are always a pain ;-)
<wpwrak> what was the why about ? users or USB ?
<wolfspraul> maybe Apple in the past has sold them stuff that actually worked?
<wolfspraul> and a lot of the others didn't so they hate all this other crap?
<wolfspraul> maybe... :-)
<wpwrak> it's not just apple. it's the workflow.
<wolfspraul> let's see in which camp Milkymist is soon
<wolfspraul> most normal (non-Apple) tech companies make some random crap, sell it, and when the pain gets too bad they abandon it and move to the next piece of crap
<wolfspraul> I think it's fair to say that 90% of the consumer facing tech industry functions like that
<wolfspraul> and they keep themselves fed, so there is some validity in this approach :-)
<wolfspraul> but it also leads to the 3 block lines at Apple stores...
<wpwrak> another approach would be to implement USB device, run some weird proprietary protocol over it, and have drivers for windows, macos, and so on. then people cold just "drag their images and drop them into the M1 icon" they would like that ;-)
<wolfspraul> I think we stay calm. What we have today is an awesome product that is great, and people can edit patches and do good things today.
<wolfspraul> now we add features one by one by picking the lowest hanging fruits first
<wolfspraul> on the hardware side, that's what I try to contribute with rc4
<wpwrak> M1 also needs a bit more "best practice information". the closed wiki doesn't help ... but then i don't know if there are already people who would like to post stuff
<wolfspraul> gradual improvements
<wolfspraul> yes agreed
<wpwrak> what is almost entirely missing, though, it user community support
<wolfspraul> no forum
<wpwrak> s/it/is/
<wpwrak> yup
<wolfspraul> agreed
<wpwrak> no place to put your patches. with a preview image. maybe even a small animation. animation with a soundbite. a sound bite that won't get us in trouble.
<wpwrak> there's a DEEP dependency chain there
<wpwrak> (sound bits) idem with video input
<wpwrak> i.e., it would be good to have a collection of WTF/CC0/CC-BY/CC-BY-SA content that people could apply their patches on. then post things in the "patch sharing forum" (whichever form that takes)
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> all agreed
<wolfspraul> he
<wolfspraul> I just read the original desperatemist mail
<wolfspraul> difficult to answer, not sure what the goal is
<wpwrak> ;-)
<wolfspraul> 1. where are we?
<wolfspraul> 2. where do we want to go?
<wolfspraul> 3. how do we get there?
<wolfspraul> maybe Sebastien should try with a notebook :-)
<wolfspraul> Ron can help send him some links to cheap ones
<kristianpaul> i think for the developers M1 version a port for others platforms (copyleft hw or no) is not a bad idea, been friendly supporting then well why not?
<wpwrak> more platforms = more work
<wpwrak> of course, if the people there support themselves, then the more platforms, the more glory :)
<kristianpaul> :)
<kristianpaul> anyway this is already happening, like the avnet i bougt before M1 was comercially avaliable, and carlobar was porting the soc to its spartan3 board
<kristianpaul> well, not consider avnet that was work from lekernel..
<kristianpaul> bu there is also the papilio board port
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: well if support themselves are potentials developers, isnt? :)
<wolfspraul> I think the M1 product approach is right
<wolfspraul> make it work, for yourself
<wolfspraul> make it fun, then improve. explain to others why you are happy with it, then they may want to join.
<wolfspraul> any strategizing over tech features won't work
<wolfspraul> you can come out with any random amount of random this or that board, with lots of untested and unimplemented features.
<wolfspraul> M1 implements 5% of what it could do today...
<wolfspraul> meanwhile on the hardware side I have 100 ideas how to make things cheaper, easier to manufacture, easier to make improved products, etc.
<wolfspraul> and upgrading mega-hertz/bits/pixels whenever possible
<wolfspraul> more mega more potential (not that the current potential would have been maxed out in any way, imho)
<roh> i just had a router on my table.. it costs 25E enduser
<roh> all chips have leads. no bga. no extra fine pitch. 'regular' 05 or 06 micron
<roh> one side used for components only. etc.. one could really smell the 'cost optimizedness'
<roh> but hey.. its easily en par with an old wrt when it comes to performance (well.. duh fresher chips)
<kristianpaul> openrisc got linux support, nice for then http://opencores.org/newsletter,2011,10,#n1 "
<kristianpaul> uptream*
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (devel) yup, that's the good part. of course, if they stay around and contribute back. there's a certain risk of sinking a lot of time into some student projects with very little return
<wpwrak> roh: bga is often more expensive than small leaded. sometimes even qfn is more expensive than, say, SSOP. but that's slowly changing
<kristianpaul> hum patch editor very sensitive to blank spaces..
<xiangfu> kristianpaul, end or begin? there is such code in flickernoise for eat spaces. :)
<kristianpaul> between :)
<kristianpaul> hum
<aw_> 0x7d: MIDI_RX(TP31) normal level is only 1V which must be 3.3V once powered-on. and dumplock shows no locked; and after used reflashed successfully with './reflash_m1.sh --rc3' version "2011-10-14", then TP31 works @ 3.3V correctly and CRC images tested all pass. It's freakish. My question is: Where's the allocation in NOR about image of midi codes? Inside also in locked block area?
<aw_> I deleted already my previous reflash script which doesn't fully lock before (0x006c0004) = 0x0001 (1). If xiangfu can write a reflash script without locked function then I can use it again to clarify this weird 0x7d board.
<lekernel> wolfspraul, so, how can we make a $99 device that supports a decent part of the M1 functionality?
<lekernel> wolfspraul, looking at consumer devices in this price range, it seems to me that they implement those "desperate" optimizations
<wolfspraul> the cheapest way would be to use the existing rc3 production files and leave chips and connectors out
<wolfspraul> that can be made even cheaper by improving yield/manufacturability (which we work on as part of rc3), boomification of the bom to make sourcing easier
<wolfspraul> who wants to sell such a device btw?
<wolfspraul> maybe bearstech could be interested?
<lekernel> so, it's basically about recouping the investment put into developing a new device?
<wolfspraul> don't understand
<wolfspraul> who wants to develop something and who wants to recoup investments?
<lekernel> me. the M1 sales and popularity are disappointing.
<wolfspraul> still don't understand - what is the question?
<lekernel> you said "the cheapest way would be to use the existing rc3 production files and leave chips and connectors out". this is about not developing new stuff, right?
<wolfspraul> no that was my answer to your question, I think that's the way to get to the cheapest milkymist entry-level board
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with "developing new stuff" - you mean a new product?
<lekernel> yes
<wolfspraul> how would it differ from m1?
<wolfspraul> my action plan is roughly like this:
<wolfspraul> improve m1 with every new run
<Thihi> How long has the final version of M1 been out?
<wolfspraul> better yield
<wolfspraul> Thihi: 3 weeks :-)
<Thihi> So isn't getting disappointed with sales a bit ... premature?
<wolfspraul> little things like adv7181c, medium things like dvi-i
<wolfspraul> oh sure, totally premature
<wolfspraul> I will develop this product for 5 years :-)
<wolfspraul> I would like to make the daughterboard a staging area for new extensions
<wolfspraul> we can reduce sourcing cost with boom
<lekernel> yes
<wolfspraul> while trying to improve m1 as much as possible with each run, maintain backward compatibility for all m1 users and deliver updates
<wolfspraul> if that is not possible, offer upgrade programs
<wolfspraul> the most important is to take our customers forward
<wolfspraul> if they are happy, they will be happy to pay as well
<wolfspraul> Joerg has proposed a really nice idea to get rid of the metal sheet for ESD safety
<lekernel> updates by whom and for whom? there are so few active customers and developers
<wolfspraul> if you don't believe in your product, then for sure nobody else will either
<lekernel> also my email mentioned we keep software compatibility
<wolfspraul> so that's a chicken & egg problem that only the original guys can break through
<wolfspraul> oh I like your plan - cheap entry point
<wolfspraul> I've discussed it in this channel or #qi-hardware before
<wolfspraul> the cheap entry point will not make money for anybody however
<wolfspraul> because it's so cheap :-)
<wolfspraul> but it's good to have for the community and long-term
<lekernel> well, as long as we don't lose money and gain some developers, users and popularity, it's not bad
<wolfspraul> imagine this: bearstech agrees to do worldwide sales & marketing for a cheap entry board
<wolfspraul> yes!
<wolfspraul> then we move to rc4 now
<wolfspraul> and in the rc4 run, we make some boards towards this 'cheap entry point' goal
<wolfspraul> that is we leave stuff unpopulated, and send a whole batch of pcbas to Bearstech
<wolfspraul> that will get really cheap!
<wolfspraul> since we can share the pcb & smt & testing costs with the product run
<wolfspraul> I would leave everything out, even power supply
<lekernel> I'm not exactly sure what stuff can be left unpopulated though
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't want to sell it either, that's why I asked that earlier.
<wolfspraul> "sell it" I mean one by one
<lekernel> say we remove the audio chip - then there's no audio at all, contrary to the artix7 solution
<wolfspraul> yes but your proposed board looks entirely different, why not just go with a Xilinx dev board then?
<wolfspraul> what is the problem you are trying to solve with your new board?
<wolfspraul> for removing the wolfson codec, I think we should test that first and compare audio quality as Lars mentioned. then we can make an educated decision.
<lekernel> ??
<wolfspraul> from a Milkymist One perspective, of course I like artix-7, evaluating it
<wolfspraul> always good
<lekernel> we're talking about the cheap entry-level stuff here. audio quality doesn't matter much.
<lekernel> the problem I'm trying to solve is how to lower one of the barriers to entry
<lekernel> _many_ people turn away when they learn it's $499
<lekernel> it's lamentable of course, but what can i do
<lekernel> as I said - this entry level thing will share 99% or more of the software with the M1
<lekernel> developments, patches, etc. can be used on the M1 too
<wolfspraul> I think the way to get there is to focus on rc4, and then branch out into a "cheap devel board" if we find someone who wants to market it
<wolfspraul> that cheap devel board would be the rc4 pcba, minus chips and connectors we can identify
<wolfspraul> if you cannot maintain that compatibility, you need a new board and I think that alone will kill any hope of it being 'cheap'
<wolfspraul> I think it's extremely unlikely you will arrive at a 99 USD pricepoint, even if you do it's a pricepoint that will block any further innovation, imho
<lekernel> I can't see any major obstacle to maintaining compatibility
<wolfspraul> no I mean developing the "cheap devel board" as an offspin of rc4
<wolfspraul> I think it's way too early to judge M1 sales response
<wolfspraul> my sales goal was 200 units for 2011
<wolfspraul> we had a 2-3 months rc3 production delay, unfortunately
<lekernel> and why not $99? if you look at my proposal, what would cost so much?
<wolfspraul> so far we sold about 70, 130 to go (we won't make it)
<wolfspraul> ok one by one
<wolfspraul> you like the MSL guys in the UK, and Yi had a good impression too
<wolfspraul> so let's go for it, let's take their feedback serious
<lekernel> I never said we should stop the current M1 :)
<wolfspraul> but you will see - they will most likely ask for a lot of things this and that to be improved in hw and sw
<wolfspraul> sure sure
<wolfspraul> we are just discussing
<wolfspraul> I like your 99 USD thinking
<wolfspraul> cost down is good
<wolfspraul> but now let's see how we can execute it
<wolfspraul> I think it should be an offspin of the full product
<lekernel> well, it is
<wolfspraul> also we can do this: we come out with an improved product, say in January 2012
<wolfspraul> let's say that still costs 499 USD
<wolfspraul> at that point we can sell the old one for any lesser amount
<wolfspraul> that protects our various interests
<wolfspraul> with that I mean mostly the customers that went out and paid 499 USD
<lekernel> that $99 thing is definitely a M1 offspin. don't be fooled by the artix7 proposal.
<lekernel> it'll run the same code
<wolfspraul> yes sure
<wolfspraul> it's done by you
<wolfspraul> you will of course take the same code and port it over :-)
<wolfspraul> that's the last thing I'm worried about
<wolfspraul> if this is what gets us started with artix-7, let's do it just for that
<wolfspraul> artix-7 eval board
<lekernel> video-in is exactly the same, ethernet too, DRAM too, flash maybe not
<wolfspraul> we can look into ddr2 vs ddr3
<wolfspraul> I think we are still safe with ddr2
<lekernel> ddr 2/3 will completely break compatibility with the FPGA code using DDR
<wolfspraul> with 'safe' i mean that if there is a massive industry 'trend' towards ddr3, we may quickly have to pay a lot of money and face availability problems with ddr2
<lekernel> and it'll be difficult to support the DDR-based M1s
<wolfspraul> you mean if we go to ddr3, it will be difficult to support ddr2 boards?
<lekernel> yes
<wolfspraul> I think we are still safe with ddr2 for a while
<lekernel> and the current ddr1 boards
<wolfspraul> *think*, haven't looked into this in detail
<lekernel> any DRAM change makes supporting the previous generation difficult
<wolfspraul> ddr1?
<wolfspraul> ok
<lekernel> yes, the current boards use DDR1
<wolfspraul> ah ok
<wolfspraul> what are the goals of the new board?
<lekernel> reduce cost
<lekernel> that's the only goal
<lekernel> while maintaining as much compatibility with M1
<riaanvddool> i have a business idea for cheap milkymist, not sure if you would like the application
<lekernel> and throwing away some features
<wolfspraul> "throwing away features" is not a goal, you can do that with m1 already ;-)
<riaanvddool> baby soother - unit playing nursery rhymes with attention grabbing visuals
<wolfspraul> I think the best strategy is to add new features to m1, and then sell the old versions or pcba only variants at the lowest cost possible
<riaanvddool> you might think i am joking, but baby gadget market is huge
<wolfspraul> tons of markets are huge, but actually doing business in any particular market is not that easy
<wolfspraul> because sooner or later you will notice that there are players in that market already that are damned good at what they are doing :-)
<wolfspraul> (that's not against your baby soother idea at all, just saying in general)
<riaanvddool> so why try any market then? :)
<wolfspraul> you try the one closest to what you think you are good at first, 'closest' in terms of technical, locale, channel, personal connections, pure luck :-)
<wolfspraul> it's a bit naive to think that you can land in any place and any industry, and be 'good' at what you do right away
<lekernel> wolfspraul, anyway. what is it that you don't like with the entry-level product? competition against the M1?
<wolfspraul> and I think Milkymist One is on a good path in the creative/video art scene, even if Sebastien is impatient and ambitious, which I can understand
<wolfspraul> neither "don't like" nor "competition"
<wolfspraul> artix-7 is good, sooner or later that's an option we have.
<wolfspraul> I just think super practical about the next steps I am planning
<wolfspraul> which is yield improvements (learn more from rc3), make rc4 as good as possible
<wolfspraul> deliver updates
<wolfspraul> find serious distribution partners
<lekernel> so, you see it as a distraction?
<wolfspraul> phew, good question
<wolfspraul> not for me, since I don't work on it. and you are free :-)
<wolfspraul> we should be ambitious and explore new ways forward
<wolfspraul> I cannot answer that question.
<wolfspraul> last time I brought up artix-7 you dismissed it :-) (it was too early, I admit)
<lekernel> sure. it will be work to integrate it on the current M1. but for a new design, it makes sense.
<wpwrak> Thihi: (final version) M1rc3 isn't even the "final" version in any sense. there are already non-bugfix changes planned for M1rc4
<wolfspraul> what's the difference between the two?
<wolfspraul> if you make a new design, I would try to integrate it into M1, no?
<lekernel> having it on the M1 would only improve clock frequency a bit at the cost of rerouting PCB, changing power supply, and breaking some compatibility
<wolfspraul> ah ok, you think it doesn't add much to the product
<wpwrak> Thihi: and there hasn't really been a "launch" of M1 either. it'd call this a "fizzle" at best
<lekernel> no, it doesn't add much
<wolfspraul> well, life is never easy, right :-)
<wolfspraul> we need a plan to develop Milkymist One the product
<Thihi> wpwrak, well, for instance, I'm actually interested in the product, might buy one at some point when I have the money, and hang around on the developer irc-channel, and even I didn't know when it launched ;)
<wolfspraul> for more than a few weeks :-)
<wolfspraul> the feedback we gather so far all point to stuff that can be delivered via software updates
<wolfspraul> still pics, usb midi, higher res sometimes
<wolfspraul> and small bugs like detecting Ethernet cable insertions and lots of similar small improvements
<wolfspraul> Thihi: you made it here, first step :-)
<lekernel> and do you think those small improvements would solve the large unpopularity problem we have?
<Thihi> wolfspraul, sure, but that's just since I hang out on other visualizer projects developer channels, and someone talked about this on #projectm. What I mean to say, is that I'm basically very close to the person you want to reach, and the fact that I even know about you guys is by pure slim chance.
<Thihi> wolfspraul, which is the reason for the "disappointing" sales. People don't know about you.
<wolfspraul> I am not disappointed about sales.
<Thihi> Yes, but lekernel was in the beginning of this discussion.
<wolfspraul> in fact we sold them almost at the rate that I was able to make sellable units
<wolfspraul> yes he is ambitious, and that's good
<wolfspraul> lekernel: there is no guarantee that any feature will solve the "large unpopularity problem"
<Thihi> I was just pointing out that he fault isn't so much the price (even though it is high, and keeping me from splurging just yet), but that M1 is mostly obscure.
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> now...
<Thihi> Hmm, I need to go, I've got a meeting in an hour.
<wolfspraul> how to change that? :-)
<Thihi> Yeah, that is the question.
<lekernel> cheap might help... as it makes viral communication easier
<lekernel> we can perhaps use some vaporware too, like the raspberry pi people
<wolfspraul> I think we have to deliver updates, if you look at successful tech products you will find a massive correlation between the ability and actual execution to deliver updates, and their success.
<riaanvddool> it sounds like a case of, if we build it, the users will come
<riaanvddool> it will take time
<wolfspraul> no no, this box works today and is great
<wpwrak> lekernel: which parts of M1 has your cost analysis shown as being critical for causing the USD 500 price ? for the most expensive component, the FPGA, it doesn't even seem to be sure that you will see a significant price reduction.
<Thihi> wolfspraul, correlation does not imply causation, but I'm with you on the updates anyway.
<Thihi> Damn, really gotta run.
<Thihi> Luck to you guys. ->
<wpwrak> (cost analysis) i.e., do we have a complete cost breakdown somewhere ?
<wolfspraul> so... I think this strategy has the "highest chance" of success:
<wolfspraul> spend a lot of energy to develop communication channels with your customers, make ways for them to give feedback, and to spend their money with you
<wolfspraul> always always always deliver updates to your users, and find ways to charge for those updates
<wolfspraul> happy users will WANT TO spend their money with you
<wolfspraul> we are in tech, so we need to aggressively improve our technology, drive specs up, drive cost down
<wpwrak> one unpopularity problem is that several features are "below par". e.g., i think people who ask for "DVI" probably mean "higher resolution". right now, they get a VGA with a VGA resolution, so they may think (perhaps even unconsciously) that a DVI connector will get them a more modern resolution
<wolfspraul> that will allow us to keep the price of our top-end product at a pricepoint that allows us to keep innovating, and discount older generations and sell them to people who really make cost-driven decisions
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: totally agree
<wolfspraul> I think it's wonderful how *FAR* we got Milkymist One
<wpwrak> another unpopularity problem is that the demo material still looks lame. and we have the bug in the marketing message that we claim M1 can work as a standalone device (i.e., no VJ), which it is boring at.
<wolfspraul> yes!
<wolfspraul> so we add features, in hw and sw
<wolfspraul> the sw features get delivered to everyone, even first-gen hw buyers
<wolfspraul> the hw features require our users to either pay for an upgrade, or buy a new unit. also they allow us to sell older hw generations at lower cost.
<wpwrak> you could maybe call unattended operation the "auto-pilot". it won't start, it won't land, and it'll disengage on the least difficulty, but yes, it will allow you to nod off for a second or two
<wolfspraul> that is a model I believe in. Does it guarantee success? you bet not!
<wolfspraul> also the marketing message of our product needs to be consistent for some period of time (years)
<wolfspraul> since we are also building a new brand here!
<wpwrak> also, you can't compare the end-user prices of china massware with M1. if you were to manufacture M1s by the millions, they would be cheap, too
<wolfspraul> we are building 4 things at once: new brand, new tech, new channel, new category
<wolfspraul> if we make too many changes, we will confuse everybody about all 4 of those
<wolfspraul> ah, a product like m1 does not exist anywhere
<wolfspraul> totally new computing architecture
<wolfspraul> whether it fizzles or goes on and grows remains to be seen, of course
<wolfspraul> ARM was founded in 1992, I think
<wolfspraul> when did they solve their 'unpopularity problem'?
<wolfspraul> it must have been pretty lonely at their offices all throughout the 90's
<wolfspraul> I can only do a small part in all this, and I'm trying
<riaanvddool> probably more of an 'undiscovered problem'
<wolfspraul> people are wisely sceptical of great promises
<wolfspraul> just wait a year and see whether that bullshit is still around :-)
<wolfspraul> I think we all do this with a lot of things
<wolfspraul> to weed out the nonsense
<wolfspraul> if we believe in Milkymist, we first of all have to live it and push it forward ourselves
<wolfspraul> so back to the new board
<wolfspraul> I learnt something new
<wolfspraul> artix-7 on m1 doesn't add much value
<wolfspraul> but on a totally new board, we could design that board specifically around artix-7 for a better overall mix
<wolfspraul> maybe milkymist one is just an over-hyped spartan-6 devboard in the end :-)
<wpwrak> what does artix-7 provide ? is being new all that's to say about it ?
<wolfspraul> how can we achieve continuity and growth for the Milkymist SoC on one side, and product and branding continuity for our paying customers on the other side?
<wolfspraul> no idea, it's just the next-gen from Xilinx
<wolfspraul> we could also look at Altera, or even the new ARM-FPGA combos, although I don't know how they would fit into the Milkymist world
<wolfspraul> since that next-gen is made in a 28 nm process as compared to the 45 nm s-6, I would think there must be some improvements in there
<riaanvddool> sounds like some huge risks in terms of engineering time, going to a new family?
<wolfspraul> we are risk takers here
<riaanvddool> hehe
<wpwrak> let's look at more unpopularity problems: where does the request of image support come from ? did rejon make this up on his own ? or did potential customers mention it ? in the latter case, it means that they think ahead far enough that they find that kind of holes in the feature set. and then, of course, reject M1, because it won't scratch their itch
<wolfspraul> or otherwise we would have never gotten to where we are
<wolfspraul> we should watch continuity for the Milkymist SoC codebase
<wolfspraul> if we believe in the value of that codebase
<wolfspraul> Sebastien says he can keep that with artix-7
<wolfspraul> that's good news
<wpwrak> and nobody believes in vendors promising a feature will be delivered after you buy. that meme has been vigorously stamped out by the industry.
<wolfspraul> no I disagree
<wpwrak> and in fact, they're right even in M1: lekernel said several times that he won't work on a given feature before there are more sales. classical deadlock.
<wolfspraul> I repeat from above: *updatability* is one of the top criteria tech investors look at to gauge the chance of success
<wolfspraul> of course with a web service that's easy
<riaanvddool> in terms of communication with users: do you have a mechanism for users or potential users to vote for a feature / bug fix?
<wolfspraul> no
<wpwrak> (artix-7) sounds like a bad train to jump on right now then. why be among the early adopters who sink time and money helping xilinx to debug the chip ? will xilinx pay for that ?
<lekernel> artix7 brings a tad more speed and ADC. that's about it.
<wolfspraul> lekernel: what do you think about the new arm-fpga combos?
<lekernel> they bring a lot of proprietary blocks and won't improve much as far as M1 is concerned
<wolfspraul> ok
<lekernel> sure, they will be MMU and good support from GNU. but it'll make the M1 a boring ARM devboard.
<wpwrak> lekernel: are xilinx looking for companies to work with to make early successful designs of artix-7 ? "work with" as in technical support but also financing ? if you could get xilinx to finance the m1, then the idea would look considerably better
<wolfspraul> lekernel: I fully understand both your cheap entry-level board and "disappointing sales" feedback, but you should also be happy to see how far Milkymist made it!
<wolfspraul> I am really curious about Simon's feedback, for example
<wolfspraul> you can ask yourself what you can do to keep Jon moving forward. Jon is really throwing a giant amount of energy and reputation behind Milkymist.
<wolfspraul> there is no guarantee for more success
<wolfspraul> more visibility/popularity
<wolfspraul> there is not
<lekernel> that's actually what is worrying me, because I do not see many returns
<wpwrak> (arm) an asic core would be nice. but not so much if it weakens the openness of the fpga side
<wolfspraul> it's difficult to navigate at this stage
<wolfspraul> everything is fragile
<wolfspraul> you tell me - what is best for the Milkymist SoC?
<wolfspraul> the codebase - how to achieve continuity? how to move forward so that we can make the most exciting products in the future, easy & fast? I don't know, learning from you :-)
<wpwrak> lekernel: how good is your german ? do you read technical german articles ?
<wolfspraul> I can tell you which next steps *for myself* I believe in, and which ones you think I should not do :-)
<wolfspraul> I roughly listed before. focus on rc4, make rc4 as good as possible
<wolfspraul> improve yield
<wolfspraul> boomify the bom, make sourcing easier
<wolfspraul> remove metal shield without worsening ESD stability
<wolfspraul> deliver updates to existing m1 customers
<wolfspraul> yep
<wolfspraul> roughly
<wolfspraul> :-)
<riaanvddool> where do you think this product / brand  is on the adoption curve ?
<wolfspraul> daughterboards also, I think daughterboards could be a staging area for experiments and accelerated innovation
<wolfspraul> and I want to keep selling directly to normal non-technical people who love music and visuals and video art
<wolfspraul> and I can help people who want to sell & market to hackers and developers, even beyond the "100% free and open files and docs" that we do now
<wpwrak> from a user community side, how to solve the wiki and the forum problem ?
<lekernel> with popular products, users sometimes solve this problem themselves by opening their website
<wpwrak> yes, there are products that have a fan base even against the company's wishes :)
<riaanvddool> hardware or software products?
<wpwrak> i guess both
<riaanvddool> i think it is much easier to form a community arround a opensource software product than a opensource hardware product
<wolfspraul> riaanvddool: Innovators, definitely
<wolfspraul> very early
<riaanvddool> yeah, thought so
<wpwrak> e.g., cypress were great at ignoring the customers of their psocs. finally, one guy opened his own site with forum and such. great success. probably helped a lot to get the word out to people who weren't businesses already in contact with cypress.
<riaanvddool> so you should probably cater for that market and the next one
<wolfspraul> those are multi-billion USD companies
<wpwrak> yes :)
<wolfspraul> yeah so the comparison is... :-)
<wolfspraul> I leave the characterization to you
<wolfspraul> we make all sorts of big statements
<wolfspraul> now we have to proove them, and we are about to do that
<wolfspraul> M1 ships
<wolfspraul> it's real
<wolfspraul> you put in your credit card, and the fedex package is on the way to you tomorrow
<wolfspraul> we want more? ok
<wolfspraul> fine
<wolfspraul> go for it
<wolfspraul> Milkymist the new Apple?
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> go for it
<wpwrak> well, people become fans of the big corps because they perceive there's a benefit for them there. we can play that game too :) M1 is pretty unique, after all
<wolfspraul> from an ambition-standpoint we already made it, that's clear
<wolfspraul> M1 is absolutely thrilling
<wolfspraul> Sebastien has to guide us on the continuity and what's good for the Milkymist SoC codebase so it remains a world-class starting point to make great products
<wpwrak> lekernel: btw, are you happy with the speed at which M1rc4 is advancing ?
<wolfspraul> and M1 has to be the first example of such a great product, and I will not abandon it for years, and (try to) deliver updates
<riaanvddool> yeah, ride out the S-curve :)
<wolfspraul> unless say I have a heart attack tomorrow, that'd be bad :-)
<wolfspraul> forget those curves
<wolfspraul> first time I looked at that now
<wolfspraul> Milkymist One works
<wpwrak> i wouldn't quite plan on extreme longevity. at least not of the specific device. of the family, yes
<wolfspraul> you should get one and enjoy and start learning and being on the ride :-)
<wolfspraul> we want to grow sales
<wolfspraul> for that it has to be attractive
<wolfspraul> like you said multi-billion USD corps can be attractive for a variety of reasons
<wolfspraul> I keep repeating: Milkymist is new on: brand, tech, channel, category
<wolfspraul> that's too much for most people, they will dismiss it as some obscure thing with some few strange folks pushing it who will eventually give up and get a life
<wolfspraul> which is an understandable reaction!
<wolfspraul> maybe we can remove some of those, if an existing brand or channel would come along, we should consider joining.
<lekernel> yeah and combine that with a "high" price, and you get the disappointing sales I was talking about
<wolfspraul> 'high' by which standard?
<lekernel> out of the "cheap tech gadget" category
<wolfspraul> and you want to be in that category?
<lekernel> whose limit is about $100-$150 imo
<riaanvddool> i dont think the price is too high
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> and there is no innovation in that category at all
<wolfspraul> because it's impossible
<lekernel> I think it would be good to have an entry-level product in that category, yes
<wolfspraul> if it's a subsidized entry point/old version of something more expensive, then yes
<wpwrak> "cheap tech gadgets" in that price range generally don't have a single USD 30 chip in them ;-)
<wolfspraul> that's why I described my approach above
<wolfspraul> add features, keep price point at 499, sell old versions for less
<lekernel> even if no one makes money with it. as long as we don't lose money, it's fine.
<riaanvddool> i am siding with wolfspraul
<wpwrak> subsidizing is an option, yes. another one is huge volume, so you get massive quantity discounts
<wolfspraul> let's keep a little perspective
<wolfspraul> in the 80's, people saved money for months to be able to buy their 2000 USD "home computer"
<wolfspraul> right?
<wolfspraul> and that was with lower monthly salaries, and then they bought accessories in the 500-1000 USD range still
<lekernel> yes but "computer" was hype at that time. "milkymist" isn't.
<wolfspraul> why did they do that?
<riaanvddool> exactly, create the hype
<wolfspraul> and what are they spending that money on today?
<wolfspraul> of course 'tech' as such is dead
<riaanvddool> the product is not good enough on its own
<wolfspraul> people don't believe in it, they don't see a bright future somewhere there
<wolfspraul> maybe they invest 5k usd in new solar panels on their roof?
<riaanvddool> not this product specifically i mean, in general
<wolfspraul> many are surely spending 200-400 USD on a headphone, as I start to understand
<wolfspraul> I guess they want to treat their ears well
<wpwrak> M1 isn't really thought of as a "home user" product
<wpwrak> you're having marketing blur again :)
<wolfspraul> I just mentioned some pricing perspective
<wolfspraul> you cannot innovate at 50 USD, 100 USD
<riaanvddool> people wont mind spending $500 for a product that they trust. updates and support will be very important.
<wolfspraul> amazin is trying at 199 USD, which is a giant bold move, but they have prepared for this for 5+ years, 'kindled', and they are makign this a multi-billion USD bet
<wolfspraul> amazon
<wolfspraul> riaanvddool: agreed
<wpwrak> at least not unless you find someone to sponsor your R&D :)
<wolfspraul> so no, I think for M1 a 499 USD pricepoint is perfect
<wolfspraul> now we need to deliver value
<wolfspraul> to old and new customers
<wolfspraul> actually it's amazing about 70 bought already :-)
<wpwrak> i brought up that idea several times. alas, not much has happened there. well, 1.5 contacts. better than nothing, but ...
<wolfspraul> let's improve m1 asap, and then sell the old version for less
<riaanvddool> i agree
<wolfspraul> and we can even branch out a pcba only old version, for the absolut most rock bottom price possible
<wolfspraul> at or below subsidized dev boards, and without typical dev board bugs, and with Milkymist community support
<wpwrak> another way to speed up things would be to find outside investment. that would allow to hire people for software development, maintenance of community services, marketing, trade shows, and so on.
<riaanvddool> but vc companies dont like opensource
<wpwrak> that's a problem, yes
<riaanvddool> unless you get someone like mark shuttleworth :)
<wpwrak> has anyone talked to him yet ?
<lekernel> many vc companies I know of have had a lifespan smaller than this project
<wpwrak> who cares ? ;-)
<wolfspraul> the only way to win over someone like mark is if mark buys a unit or gets one for free, and absolutely LOVES IT
<riaanvddool> sure, but trust me if they cant patent it they wont bite
<wolfspraul> and unfortunately that LOVE cannot be enforced, in no way
<wolfspraul> we can only make the best possible product we can, and hope some spark of beauty makes the difference, with mark or anyone else who can help us go to the next level
<riaanvddool> don't count on mark though.
<wolfspraul> btw, we did another demo of M1 at Lantern today
<wolfspraul> the club in Beijing
<wolfspraul> and it turns out the product is just not ready for the club without still picture support
<wpwrak> how did it go ?
<wpwrak> ;-)
<wolfspraul> it's too boring too fast to just let it run
<wpwrak> you can't "just let it run"
<wolfspraul> I think rejon made the right recision in not pushing the sale through based on personal relationship (aka begging), and isntead opting for what is right in the long run
<wpwrak> forget that meme
<wpwrak> M1 is as much an "unattended" device as a hammer
<wolfspraul> ok so what's the result of our discussion
<wolfspraul> it's difficult to integrate artix-7 in m1
<riaanvddool> could having more presets or having them change more often help?
<wolfspraul> for low-cost, I propose an offspin of the m1 product, and I need someone else to market and sell it
<wolfspraul> I suggest we improve m1 the product in hw+sw, keep the pricepoint at 499, and sell old versions for less
<wpwrak> (artix-7 in m1) extreme design risk for marginal return, it seems
<rejon> yes, just got off phone with xiaowu
<wolfspraul> we deliver sw updates for free to all m1 customers starting from the first rc2 customers, and hw updates allow us to sell new units, or upgrades, or sell old versions for less
<rejon> yes, better to not have sold to them
<rejon> the club wants: image support, basically to cycle through images of their logo and future events...like slides AND we need some solution to make the effects less "winamp like"
<rejon> less robotic
<wolfspraul> also I learnt that Sebastien doesn't think the new arm-fpga combos will be good for us
<rejon> the first one needs to happen in software
<rejon> the 2nd one maybe can do simply with something like a footswitch and a patch
<rejon> soooo, no sale to them until have that solved...
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: so your take on "m1" is to basically point to the open design files and sebastien's willingness to do all the R&D for free ? that sounds like a salomonic solution :)
<wolfspraul> "take on m1"? don't understand
<wolfspraul> I explained my low-cost strategy 5 times now :-)
<wolfspraul> 1. improve m1
<wolfspraul> 2. make extra pcba only on the side
<wolfspraul> 3. after we have any improved hw, we can make the older hw versions (without bugs) which allow us to sell them at a lower price without changing the 499 USD pricepoint of our "best" product and keep us in a position to innovate
<wolfspraul> for sales, I want to focus on non-tech music & video art lovers, so for a pcba only I need a global sales partner, who buys a whole bunch from me, and then sells them one by one
<rejon> i agree with wolfspraul
<rejon> this type of club sale is fucking huge for us!
<rejon> for so many reasons
<rejon> if we can get the service right, then it becomes much easier sale to others
<rejon> we have so much to do on m1
<rejon> i can't even think about something else right now
<wpwrak> i don't really see clubs as a customers
<wolfspraul> I don't expect any "free R&D" from Sebastien, where do I do that? I am trying to make the best possible product based on Milkymist
<rejon> i agree wolfspraul
<rejon> just need more sales
<wpwrak> do clubs own the laptops the DJs use ?
<rejon> wpwrak: do you go to clubs?
<wolfspraul> in fact there is a royalty in each M1, and I like to try to pay Sebastien for his trademark & brand
<rejon> anyway, clubs are great place to sell m1
<wolfspraul> I wish I could find more HDL hackers, trust me
<rejon> they see the lights, can slip in m1 logos
<wolfspraul> Jon and I are both trying to find them
<rejon> its fabulous!
<wpwrak> every once in a while. not too often lately, though :(
<rejon> clubs are HUGE!
<wpwrak> rejon: M1 is not a "standalone" box
<wpwrak> it doesn't work
<wolfspraul> Sebastien can learn back as far as I'm concerned. But he needs to understand that right now, he is the only one in the position to quickly deliver a number of software updates.
<wpwrak> it's boring
<rejon> wpwrak: that is a software concern
<wolfspraul> so if he doesn't do that, Xiangfu will try but it will be slooooow, compared to Sebastien. Years instead of days ;-)
<wolfspraul> and maybe one day we find more active HDL hackers, that would be awesome!
<wpwrak> I think AI researchers have been saying that for the last 80 years or so ;-)
<rejon> the m1 just cycling through images is hard?
<wolfspraul> but yes, right now Sebastien is the only one for a lot of features, that's just how it is so that's why we sometimes look at him :-)
<rejon> i think we can sell the m1 to this club with simply cycling through images
<rejon> no need for even effects on them
<rejon> just like cycling through
<rejon> the simplest of support for images
<rejon> yes, i have lots of ideas on how to make the m1 more standalone and interesting
<wolfspraul> but Sebastien did a huge start and we made it to this really unique product and computing architecture, so I'm not complaining.
<rejon> totally lekernel did shitloads
<rejon> its just hard work this valley between what we have, and how to connect that up with what people want
<lekernel> putting them into patches isn't basically much harder, except for the details like decent GUI etc.
<wpwrak> rejon: why buy an unproven M1 that cycles through images at VGA and it messy to handle if i can just get a netbook for half the price that has DVI/HDMI, 1080p, and runs windows ? :)
<lekernel> or proper patch language integration
<rejon> wpwrak: i can't even hear what you are saying
<rejon> i'm selling m1s
<wolfspraul> we try to make the best possible m1 and sell it to everybody! :-)
<wolfspraul> I want the standy mode removed ;-)
<wolfspraul> and I want Ethernet cable insertion detection to work so DHCP will kick in by itself at runtime
<wpwrak> rejon: you're not selling anything but M1s. but your customers can buy other things. that's the disconnect ;-)
<wolfspraul> and I probably want another 100 things
<wolfspraul> but for the time being what we have is great, and sellable, if slowly
<rejon> totally
<wolfspraul> there is nothing even close, anywhere in the world
<rejon> wpwrak: whatever man, these people are buying the milkymist
<rejon> they ahve a great disconnect in the club betweeen club systems and laptops
<rejon> laptops are not cool
<rejon> club terrain is diff. from outside world
<rejon> anyway
<wolfspraul> homes too
<lekernel> well I'm still with you for continuing M1 improvements, but I need to see a clear point in them
<rejon> these are completely diff. terrains
<wolfspraul> we can sell to people that like video and digital art
<wpwrak> rejon: you've asked several times product positioning questions of the kind "given that I have an M1, how would i do this or that with it ?". that's a good question for you personally. and for any early adopter who has bought one. but not for someone who still has to decide whether it makes sense at all.
<wolfspraul> just needs to be targeted right
<wolfspraul> lekernel: M1 improvements lead to low-cost versions
<lekernel> I do not want to dig myself into a hole and keep pissing out code 2 people care about
<rejon> wpwrak: i'm interacting with people daily
<rejon> when i ask questions, i'm usually channeling other people
<rejon> lekernel: i hear you man
<rejon> the image support is most requested by far
<wpwrak> rejon: i think you need to snap out of that logic. it's good to look a bit on the side, but it's bad to try to sell it as something where it doesn't even begin to be viable competition
<wpwrak> oh, image support is clearly a good thing
<rejon> wpwrak: i'm listening to you, but you are not in on all my conversations
<wpwrak> but i would be something that enhances the VJ's performance
<rejon> i save 99% of the speculation from you guys
<rejon> you will completely throw me away then
<rejon> anyway, i don't want to annoy anyone
<rejon> esp. not lekernel
<rejon> ;)
<rejon> i got some interviews at an event this weekend about m1
<rejon> next week is going to be a big m1 week
<wolfspraul> lekernel: I cannot guarantee you that new features will help sales or visibility
<wolfspraul> but it's an essential part of the strategy going forward
<wolfspraul> new sw features reward our existing customers
<rejon> i can guarantee that the image support will help fabricatorz who already have one, and will help me sell to clubs
<wolfspraul> when delivered via an effective update mechanism that really reaches them
<wolfspraul> new hw features allow us to sell more units to old customers, either as a totally new one or some sort of upgrade program
<rejon> yes
<rejon> i want to spam the world everytime we get new features
<rejon> also, would love to get more people helping hack
<wolfspraul> also new hw features allow us to make the older gen hw and sell them for lower prices *WITHOUT* destroying our pricepoint, business, and future
<rejon> more ways to get people hacking, great
<rejon> new patches, etc
<wolfspraul> correct, those lower cost (not latest gen) entry points could be really cheap
<wolfspraul> because the latest-gen protects our pricepoint and brand and everything
<rejon> what percentage of our harware is supported in software right nwo?
<wolfspraul> that's just how it works, typically
<rejon> now?
<rejon> or rather, how complete is the software implementation to the hardware we actually have on the m1?
<wolfspraul> rejon: 5% :-)
<wolfspraul> that's my number
<rejon> shit
<wpwrak> rejon: (club interface) that sounds interesting. why do they resent laptops ? just becasue they're laptops ? or are there more specific reasons ?
<wolfspraul> the box, theoretically, could do a hundred times more than it does today
<wolfspraul> but where should the engineering come from?
<rejon> well, that can be phrased well to customers :)
<wolfspraul> so we need to pick lowest hanging fruits first
<wpwrak> (and .. if there's an apple logo on it, would that make it less of an ugly laptop ? :)
<rejon> by saying: the milkymist is getting better!
<wolfspraul> and I think we have identified low hanging fruits now
<rejon> yeah, that is cool
<rejon> m1 starts up, says, i am 5% ready
<rejon> hahaha
<wolfspraul> seriously, I described my proposed strategy 10 times now, it feels. enough. if it's still not clear - check the backlog :-)
<rejon> updates can be percentage points
<rejon> this is the 6% release
<wolfspraul> sw updates need to reach existing users
<rejon> 10%
<wolfspraul> hw updates allow price differentiation
<rejon> yes, completely
<rejon> we can outcompete the others on updates
<wolfspraul> it all needs to be one product, that needs to be supported in this style (successfuly) for several years
<rejon> patches and software
<rejon> yes, totally agree
<rejon> now that the hardware is out, we gotta keep on the grind
<wpwrak> (sw coverage) i'd say it's maybe 50% from something that's friendly
<rejon> its not going to be fast
<wolfspraul> 'successfully' includes bigger sales, of course. this idea/approach is meant to establish sales growth.
<wpwrak> well, strong and friendly
<rejon> lekernel: one thing that would be cool, maybe it exists, but are simple ways/guides to get people helping on the milkymist
<riaanvddool> i wish i could help with stuff like that, but i first need to buy a unit
<rejon> riaanvddool: cool, get that order in?
<rejon> are you in netherlands?
<wpwrak> rejon: each time you install an uopdate, the progress bar changes a little ;-)
<rejon> wpwrak: totally
<riaanvddool> no, south africa
<rejon> hahaha
<rejon> riaanvddool: aha, yeah, get one!
<rejon> i bought a soldering iron today, tried to fix my headphones
<rejon> but the shitty headphone plugs were busted
<rejon> shit
<rejon> china!
<wpwrak> rejon: so, regarding the club IT environment. you do they dislike laptops ?
<wpwrak> ACME - Amazing China Makes Everything ;-)
<wolfspraul> if we can kick a bit of momentum into the sales, the world is wide open
<lekernel> I'm fixing a canon ixus65 digital camera I found in the trash right now, it's not that much better
<rejon> laptops are an anomaly in dj culture
<wolfspraul> there is zero innovation in notebooks
<rejon> lekernel that is cool
<rejon> if a dj is worth anything can dj on turntables (not a laptop)
<wpwrak> rejon: macbooks then. iPad if you must. better ?
<wolfspraul> the entire industry except apple has made sure there is no oxygen in the room they live in
<rejon> at this club, they often use turntables
<riaanvddool> rejon: i am going to do a demo at a club this weekend. hopefully will result in sales eventually
<rejon> the laptop is just to augment turntables STILL
<rejon> riaanvddool: that is great! thanks so much!
<wolfspraul> you can expect more innovation from smaller companies doing 'obscure' stuff like Milkymist. some of those will become big.
<lekernel> finally got the last word with it though :) but it's _full_ of those cheap PCB connectors and soft cables you break soo easily...
<rejon> we need and want your help!
<wolfspraul> but only if they manage to keep their finances healthy, that's for sure
<rejon> wolfspraul: i completely agree
<rejon> did you guys read that article i posted about why apple went with arm
<rejon> that was even a few years ago
<rejon> but, still intel couldn't innovate fast enough
<rejon> well, we are much smaller
<rejon> we can pivot much faster than giants
<rejon> just have to find the right opportunities
<wolfspraul> oh totally
<rejon> so we can pivot uppercut
<wolfspraul> the resources that allow us to do what we do are just unbelievable
<rejon> yes
<rejon> totally
<wolfspraul> but we need more sales and then grow
<rejon> dudes, this club lantern here in beijing, already we spend not really that much energy on
<rejon> been there two times
<rejon> they have beceom more of friends
<wolfspraul> make Milkymist cool, don't worry about competing with 99 USD cheap gadgets
<wolfspraul> they are already dead
<wpwrak> (laptop = uncool) hmm. but that would be for an un-cool task anyway. i can see that the DJ/VJ wants to be seen doing something. not just be in silent communion with a mysterious box in front of him
<rejon> i even got tackled in their club last weekend and recovered from that!
<wolfspraul> (and I am selling 99 USD NanoNotes :-))
<rejon> still that is very inexpensive
<wolfspraul> so the next NanoNote needs to be 99 USD as well, that's tough but that's the goal there. not an easy goal.
<rejon> so, we try to offer good service
<rejon> yeah, nanonote as a performance system
<riaanvddool> what on a laptop competes with m1?
<rejon> if we could run flickernoise on nanonote
<riaanvddool> milkdrop?
<rejon> prototype patches, so cool
<rejon> nanonote is a m1 patching tool :)
<rejon> hahaha
<rejon> cool
<wolfspraul> so rc4
<wolfspraul> anything we can improve beyond what is currently planned?
<wolfspraul> adv7181c
<wolfspraul> dvi-i
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: the case we're studying here is basically a slide show. i.e., when you don't have a VJ
<wolfspraul> gate & fixed reset ic
<riaanvddool> ok, because even between songs it is nice to be able to fade out the visuals. and that you cant do with winamp/laptop
<wolfspraul> wish we could do more, but may too risky or unclear rewards
<riaanvddool> so DMX is good feature
<wolfspraul> lekernel: I really understand your artix-7 attack angle. maybe you should try such a board just to learn from it and then we can apply something to m1?
<rejon> yeah, cool...
<rejon> i gtg to a meeting
<riaanvddool> wolfspraul: why is it called rc4 when you have launched already?
<rejon> more m1 showoff
<wolfspraul> but please don't think that a few USD bom here and there makes any difference right now
<riaanvddool> sorry, i dont have the background
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: i'm trying to fight the "M1 for slide shows" idea ;-) not that the M1 couldn't do it, but it's a poor choice and distracts from its real strengths
<rejon> one more thing i think would be cool on m1 is a performance schedule
<wolfspraul> why not
<rejon> lekernel:
<wolfspraul> rc1 was a run of 6
<wolfspraul> rc2 was a run of 40
<wolfspraul> rc3 was a run of 90
<rejon> like if can specify general times for things to happen...almost like a sequencer of sorts, or a playlist...fucking cool for artists but also clubs
<riaanvddool> ok, so rc is not 'release candidate'?
<wpwrak> how many VJs are using M1 now ?
<wolfspraul> in hardware you really always have an infinite sequence of improvements
<rejon> another thought for down the line: web server, so can change the playlist, etc, remotely
<wolfspraul> since it's analog
<rejon> anyway, enough ideas
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: revision code ? ;-)
<wolfspraul> the more you study, the more you think you find an even better balance, process
<rejon> anything i can do to get image support will help...i'm' talking to the air
<rejon> pre-leave, gtg
<riaanvddool> ok
<wolfspraul> there is no end to this, the higher the volume the more things you discover and find worthwhile improving
<riaanvddool> how about video input for image supprt?
<wolfspraul> yes, works
<wpwrak> so, how many VJs are using M1 today ? and what are they saying ?
<rejon> riaanvddool yes
<riaanvddool> use the video input for static images
<wolfspraul> you can point the cam to a logo :-)
<rejon> i even looked at low light cammeras today
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: maybe 3 or so. it is impossible/impractical to follow up with them one by one
<wpwrak> rejon: anything interesting ?
<wolfspraul> people are busy
<rejon> was seriously prepped to make a halloween doll house with little lights in it to make this sale
<wolfspraul> no-carrier was in this channel a few times
<wolfspraul> right after he got his m1
<wolfspraul> what is happening now? I don't know
<rejon> yes, there are some cool solutions, not expensive at all here for cameras
<wpwrak> yes, no-carrier is the only one i know of
<wolfspraul> excitement went away?
<wolfspraul> there is one in Munich, one in Australia
<wolfspraul> but really, people are busy
<rejon> but anyway, too many steps, and they don't want to hire someone to stand there and make a performance in a dollhouse with the m1 camera each clubnight
<wpwrak> he's just bee away for days or so ;-)
<wolfspraul> we have to make the best possible product, at that point people have to discover their *LOVE* for the product themselves
<wolfspraul> this cannot be enforced
<rejon> yes
<rejon> ok, rushing off 4 real...nice chatting
<riaanvddool> i think the project needs some sort of feedback aggregation website
<wolfspraul> thx for continued efforts!
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: oh sure, I think he is fine
<wolfspraul> he planned to take m1 to some festival in Tokyo
<wolfspraul> see that's the thing. those guys are not full-time milkymist pr agents.
<wpwrak> what i'm curious about is how people think M1 handles on stage
<wolfspraul> they buy this piece for 500 USD, and then they do whatever they like
<wolfspraul> and that's just fine
<wolfspraul> and maybe they realize "oh, this is a waste of time", and they silently move it into a drawer and write off the 500 USD because they like us and our spirit
<wolfspraul> then what?
<wpwrak> i've more or less come to the conclusion that M1 isn't really useful without an external controller. and there are basically three categories ... hmm, i should actually post this to the list
<wolfspraul> yes agreed
<wolfspraul> so we need to talk to those controller companies
<wolfspraul> really there are hundreds of business oppotunities
<wolfspraul> opportunities
<wolfspraul> but going after them all needs time
<wolfspraul> and there is a lot of fake nonsense in the world
<wolfspraul> and we have a new brand, new tech, new people - all new
<riaanvddool> it should be community driven
<wolfspraul> NOT EASY!
<wpwrak> have you looked at faderfox ? some german one-man company.
<wolfspraul> sure, all good
<wolfspraul> needs to be contacted
<riaanvddool> what is the forum problem referred to earlier?
<wolfspraul> just shoot them a 1-line mail if you can
<wolfspraul> not installed yet
<wolfspraul> riaanvddool: yes I agree, best is to build over real users who love the product
<wolfspraul> the b2b opportunities emerge out of that
<wolfspraul> the real ones
<wpwrak> what i found interesting is that one of his controllers seems to be the only product of maybe a hundred i looked at that seems to come close to what M1 is likely to need
<wpwrak> well, or rather, "want"
<wolfspraul> the scarcest commodity are users that love your product
<wolfspraul> once we have those, many b2b opportunities will emerge
<wolfspraul> and we have a few right now
<wolfspraul> and we cannot complain to those few that they are only so few. that's really stupid.
<wpwrak> there are all sorts of hacks you can do with other controllers, but that's the only one that has two joysticks. and it still has a decent set of other controls. and it's small.
<wolfspraul> that's not their fault.
<wolfspraul> so let's keep going and grow this thing and get it onto a more sustainable level asap.
<riaanvddool> build on what you have
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> k bbiab
<wpwrak> alas, it's also USB-MIDI. so you still need that PC to translate controller---USB-MIDI-->PC---USB-MIDI-->USB-MIDI-dongle---MIDI-->M1
<wolfspraul> lekernel: does this discussion resonate with you in any way?
<wolfspraul> if not, please holler
<wolfspraul> we may be dreamers, and you may be just tougher and that's fine.
<wolfspraul> I am focusing on rc4 next, and throw all my time and money behind that ;-)
<wolfspraul> still need to sell about 40 rc3 units as well, not to forget...
<wpwrak> i'm specifically talking about the LV3 controller: http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=239
<wpwrak> his products get favourable reviews from some: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct10/articles/faderfox.htm
<wpwrak> others diss them as "too little, too late" (yes, there's a /. in every scene ;-)
<riaanvddool> so what is the special offer price for rc3?
<wpwrak> but the main criticism seems to be integration with existing software. not really something we'd have a problem with :)
<riaanvddool> what is the criticism for M1?
<wpwrak> M1 ? what i hear most of the time is the price. but then, that's from IT freaks, not from artists
<roh> in my experience we it freaks are more stiken with cash than the artists
<wpwrak> well, one is both. but i'm not sure in which role he responded. also, back then i still tried the "M1 doing standalone effects" meme
<riaanvddool> also: depend if it is a toy, or a business tool
<wpwrak> roh: or maybe they just have different expectations of what their money buys. a box full of miracles like M1 may look precious to an artist, while the IT geek will just thinks it's yet more cheap china crap
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: yes, right, exactly !
<riaanvddool> i think the key is to reach the customer's customer
<roh> yeah. tricky. maybe its only marketing
<wpwrak> the IT guys consider it as a toy. the artists as a tool.
<riaanvddool> if they like the effect, then the customer will want to provide the effect
<wpwrak> tricky :)
<riaanvddool> how about trial periods? in clubs?
<wpwrak> thre's also the problem that effects are hard to make.
<riaanvddool> so make the people used to the effects, then take it away, hehe :)
<wpwrak> seems that many clubs are reluctant to experiment
<riaanvddool> i can imagine
<wpwrak> but then, i can't imagine it to be impossible
<riaanvddool> my pitch this weekend will be for not 'center stage' use, but against some wall or something
<riaanvddool> maybe the ceiling
<riaanvddool> or the floor
<riaanvddool> not sure how it will go
<wpwrak> naw, give the VJ a bit of respect, please :)
<riaanvddool> no VJ involved for now, sorry wpwrak, going to try that meme
<wpwrak> M1 without a VJ is like muzak ;-)
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: well, get your M1 and try it without affecting the controls, and then with. you'll quickly notice the difference.
<riaanvddool> sure
<riaanvddool> will do
<riaanvddool> busy saving :D
<riaanvddool> but still think the price is right
<wpwrak> should probably be higher :)
<riaanvddool> possibly
<riaanvddool> could possibly, not should?
<wpwrak> possibly both :)
<riaanvddool> do you think the see-through case makes it seem more like a tech-toy than a business tool?
<riaanvddool> compare to faderfox's more 'professional' finishing
<wpwrak> i don't know. maybe. for a time, milky see-through was cool. but then it quickly became boring. M1's clear transparency looks nice. (i have the purple version, but it seems blue looks even better)
<wpwrak> but it does have a bit of a DIY feel to it, that's true.
<riaanvddool> i think perceptions count for a lot. it might even 'scare' people off. thinking they would need to know something about the insides to use it
<wpwrak> do you really think it conveys that sort of message ?
<riaanvddool> i think so yes
<riaanvddool> even the milkymist catch phrase: eyecandy on a chip
<wpwrak> funny :) never thought of that
<riaanvddool> i think the reference to the chip is in the same category
<wpwrak> ah, indeed :)
<lekernel> haha, that catchphrase is very old stuff... actually I think I should update that website logo
<riaanvddool> i like the idea
<riaanvddool> without the referenc eto the chip
<lekernel> dates back from 2007 when I had no other plans than running it on a FPGA devboard (was even Altera at that time)
<riaanvddool> something like "eyecandy at your fingertips" ?
<riaanvddool> i think i saw the project for the first time in 2008 :)
<riaanvddool> i even asked you back then if i would be able to get it runninng on a dsp i had. silly.
<wolfspraul> the price of a product is not a joke
<wolfspraul> because people, IT or artists, have alternatives for their money
<wolfspraul> so the price needs careful 'development' same as tech features do
<riaanvddool> sure
<wolfspraul> and the company that is asking for a particular price needs to spend the money wisely, in the interests of its customers
<riaanvddool> and itself
<wolfspraul> no customer wants to see the company they love die
<wolfspraul> like I said this all needs to be managed and communicated well
<wolfspraul> I feel 499 USD is just about right for M1, less than that and we cannot innovate, not now or in the future. more than that and we are in a frivolous corner where we don't need to be.
<wolfspraul> we can try to bring it down to 399 USD after 12 months, but that's risky. it's better to come out with new better products that can maintain the 499 level.
<wolfspraul> because we believe there is a lot of potential in Milkymist
<wolfspraul> that's us first, now we need to get that across to our users
<riaanvddool> wolfspraul: what is your take on the packaging?
<riaanvddool> ie the see-through look
<wolfspraul> I think it's great
<wolfspraul> I don't read much into it though, it just looks and feels good
<riaanvddool> not too DIY for end users?
<wolfspraul> not at all
<riaanvddool> we should probably ask a non technical person :D
<wpwrak> lekernel: btw, how good is your german ?
<lekernel> lousy
<wpwrak> can you read technical german texts ? e.g., articles in c't ?
<lekernel> google helping, I can usually get the gist of it
<wpwrak> hehe, okay ;-)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you are around for a long time
<wolfspraul> how do you think we can avoid that Milkymist One becomes some sort of one-time obscure hyped devel board?
<wpwrak> i'm asking because i think it may be worthwhile to try to get an article - not just a product announcement - into c't, the largest german it magazine
<wolfspraul> the goal must be that Milkymist SoC becomes an often-reused platform, something you look at first when you want to design a great high-performance product
<wolfspraul> how to get there? what to avoid?
<wpwrak> hmm, by creating an active development community and making sure enough hardware is out there. the hardware being open should help also. that's still unproven, though.
<wolfspraul> the Linux kernel of SoC designs
<wpwrak> heh, maybe :)
<wolfspraul> we do have one product now, which is amazing
<wolfspraul> but...
<wolfspraul> that one product is very immature, growing now
<wolfspraul> let's see where it is in 2 years
<wolfspraul> and... we need a second, different product. not now, but at some point.
<wolfspraul> we = Milkymist
<wpwrak> from my very high-level point of view, M1 is very mature on the SoC side. probably well ahead of all the other (more or less) open rest.
<wpwrak> at the same time, it's still missing a lot on the "consumer electronics" side
<wpwrak> right now, you could probably consider it on par with the arduino in terms of accessibility.
<wpwrak> and yes, product updates are important. my ideal roadmap would go like this:
<wpwrak> - keep on improving M1: fill the gaps, swap parts we don't like, make small adjustments in the feature set
<wpwrak> - meanwhile, make the Ya, as a 100% open project with a broad hw developer community from the start. kinda like gta02-core. if we can repeat that alone, that would be a great success.
<wpwrak> - at some point in time, maybe make a mini2 to try more radical changes. kinda as prototype, but perhaps something you can sell as well
<wpwrak> - then, do M2 as an open project, drawing from the experience and resources of the Ya, and incorporating features/technology tested in mini2
<wpwrak> - finally, see if we can mix M2 technology and the ya form factor. that should allow for a number of interesting new devices, e.g., for measurement and data acquisition
<wpwrak> work with sector-specific specialists to interface with the actual customers (that way, we don't have to learn all the weird bits of strange businesses)
<wpwrak> on the sw side, run it all under linux. find a major feature-rich distribution to leech on. e.g., debian.
<wpwrak> once your community has reached a certain critical mass, it becomes self-sufficient and self-propelling
<wpwrak> ah, and make sure sebastien has plenty of time and motivation to work on llhdl :)
<wpwrak> open tools = lower barrier of entry and more flexibility for follow-on developments
<wolfspraul> sorry will reply in a minute. One other thing that doesn't get out of my mind is whether artix-7 supports new boot options
<wolfspraul> specifically, whether we can get rid of the NOR entirely and boot from a memcard, possibly supporting multiple memcards from the SoC...
<wpwrak> ah yes, that could be interesting, yes
<wolfspraul> anyway, separate issue
<wolfspraul> ok back, reading...
<wpwrak> one issue is the still extreme barrier of entry. not only is everything based on an exotic operating system (which complicates development but also - and perhaps even worse - deprives you of all the usual system environment)
<wolfspraul> the arduino is much cheaper, has far better documentation, easier way to start (IDE), many more samples and starting points, established expansions (shields), training courses, companies making money selling accessories, brand awareness, etc.
<wpwrak> but also several of the architectural improvements at the system level require changes to the verilog (e.g., MMU for Linux, USB host controller, ...)
<wolfspraul> Milkymist is far more powerful, and I think we should develop it along those lines, dealing with music and video data, or other high-performance rf or other signal applications
<roh> i wonder how complicated usb-host is
<wolfspraul> other than that I think we can still massively improve documentation, entry points, cheap boards as lekernel suggested, etc.
<roh> eh. sorry.. mean. usb hub support
<wpwrak> yes, arduino has many differences, too. but what it has in common is that you give people a board, and they're expected to build upon it. not a consumer electronics device.
<wolfspraul> usb hub is on the "after Linux" list
<wolfspraul> ok I roughly get your thinking, and yes, all sounds reasonable
<wpwrak> (arduino) if arduino is a kite, M1 is a 747 ;-) but still, i terms of what the customer gets, they are in a similar class for "finishedness"
<lekernel> wpwrak, have you ever tried building the slightest thing for RTEMS?
<lekernel> it really goes smoothly. smoother than with linux.
<wpwrak> only the FN ball (with the compiler)
<wpwrak> oh, for building a system image, it may be pretty nice (not sure how much of that i've actually built, though. i used the partially pre-compiled "SDK")
<wpwrak> but the thing is that, with linux, i don't even have to worry about system images and all that
<wpwrak> i install a system image that provides the basis for everything else. do i know what exactly my ubuntu does under its hood ? hell, no. and i don't care (well, sometimes i do. but then i do weird things :)
<wpwrak> once the base system is in place, i build things with  make CC=whatever-gcc  install them with  scp foo machine:  and run them by logging on and typing  ./foo
<wpwrak> if i need pass fancy arguments, i make a shell script around it
<wpwrak> all these things are basically identical for anything linux (i consider the distro-build-centric development point of view an aberration)
<wpwrak> lekernel: (c't) what would you think of trying to have an article there ? someone would have to help with the translation, of course. but if you can more or less read german, that would already help.
<wpwrak> hmm, i wonder if the NOR is doing the "first block locked" think to me again. ~2700 cycles without corruption. suspicious.
<wpwrak> s/think/thing/
<lekernel> c't is for little hobbyists, no?
<lekernel> arduino, makerbot, etc.
<wpwrak> not at all :)
<wpwrak> it covers a lot of things in IT. mainly PCs (and macs) and peripherals
<wpwrak> and software, of course
<wpwrak> their focus is quite technical. not extremely hardcore, but still strong
<wolfspraul> no no. c't is the quintessential magazine for the German tech elite.
<wolfspraul> or was, maybe. but to a degree still is. maybe the overall audience went down over the years.
<wolfspraul> it's like the New York Times of German tech journalism
<wpwrak> (they used to have major hardware projects in the distant past. e.g., building your own 8086 PC, around the time IBM made their 8088-based PC, or, i think, also a modular synthesizer project)
<wolfspraul> I like ct, and the publishing house. even though they only have ridiculously short rss snippets :-)
<wpwrak> ;-))
<wolfspraul> I had one of my first reviews that really made a difference in ct, must have been 1988 or so
<cxadams> more data points: my artist friends in Taipei who run a bar like my M1
<wpwrak> i think an article on the technology of M1 would fit great into c't. they do cover oddball things from time to time when they like them.
<wolfspraul> ah yes, I wanted to say cxadams ran into a problem last night
<cxadams> they think it's interesting, they want to know more.
<cxadams> will they buy one? maybe.
<wolfspraul> he had trouble getting the camera to work, but this morning it worked again
<wpwrak> also, if they do a tech article, they would probably also put a snippet on the product. plus pimp it all on their newsticker.
<cxadams> but they ask me to bring it back and use it, explore the possibilities
<cxadams> right, the camera didn't work last night (i admit I did not try rebooting with camera plugged in)
<cxadams> it worked this morning though
<wolfspraul> so I had a question - how hard is it to detect a composite video signal on all 3 video-in connectors we have?
<wolfspraul> rebooting should not be necessary, that's a bug that was decisively fixed in rc3
<wpwrak> cxadams: will you do some VJing ? if yes, how will you control the M1 ?
<cxadams> wpwrak: I'm still learning
<cxadams> I can't really find the documentation that describes what I can do with it
<cxadams> but yes, interested in controlling it
<cxadams> but just as interested in being able to set it up and forget about it
<cxadams> I don't want to stand behind the DJ station and press buttons all night
<wpwrak> lekernel: btw, regarding control units, yesterday i read the manual of that DMX critter and it looks as if the buttons would basically all be used up by internal functions. with you controller, can you do things like next/prev patch with controller buttons ?
<cxadams> just not my thing :)
<cxadams> some patches work way better than others in a club environment
<wpwrak> cxadams: it's not so much about pressing buttons but about tuning the effects. e.g., the audio levels need to match the music.
<cxadams> the ones that are bright are the best
<cxadams> wpwrak: aha, tell me more
<wpwrak> cxadams: if you haven't done such tuning before, you may not even have seen what M1 really can do ;-)
<wolfspraul> we need to find a way to rate and category patches
<wpwrak> it's a radical difference
<wolfspraul> categorize
<cxadams> wpwrak: tell me more
<wolfspraul> and for those ratings and categorizations to be shared among users
<wpwrak> M1 standalone = muzak. M1 with someone tuning is = a good DJ in the club ;-)
<cxadams> wolfspraul: totally
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: that's step #5 or so ;-)
<cxadams> wpwrak: how can I learn how to tune it?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: step #1: create a place where people can share patches and discuss them
<wolfspraul> yes
<wpwrak> step #2: provide a means to convey their essence to people browsing through them
<wpwrak> step #3: make sure the underpinning of that essence is legal ;-)
<cxadams> when we used M1 in Warsaw it was basically the only light source in the room; it was great
<wpwrak> that's very nice :)
<wolfspraul> oh I ran into another question the other day
<wolfspraul> can the colors of the video output match the DMX colors?
<lekernel> wpwrak, no
<lekernel> I use MIDI
<wolfspraul> so that when the video output goes red, the lights controlled via dmx also become red?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: my reasoning for patch sharing goes like this: you can take a screenshot (and shrink it) for identification purposes. that's sufficient for that.
<lekernel> wolfspraul, we can do something like that (now), yes
<wpwrak> but ... most patches need a bit more to convey what they do. also, if you get incremental developments, the differences may be subtle, which means more need for conveying details.
<cxadams> wpwrak: so, again, is 'tuning it' documented anywhere?
<wolfspraul> lekernel: what that the answer to my question whether we can detect the composite video-in on all 3 connectors, or about the video-DMX color syncing?
<lekernel> video/DMX
<wpwrak> so for that you need a short animation. and since M1 visuals coexist with sounds, you also need the music that works with the patch. see how it responds, etc.
<wpwrak> cxadams: not sure. there are some keyboard controls for video in, but i haven't used them yet. there may be things the remote control can do, but i don't have one.
<lekernel> I started the "flickernoise handbook" a while ago, but didn't continue lately
<wpwrak> cxadams: in any case, what you really want is some MIDI or DMX controller, with a lot more knobs.
<wpwrak> lekernel: (DMX vs. MIDI) a MIDI "piano" keyboard ? or something else ?
<cxadams> I have the remote control, I haven't even opened it
<lekernel> yes piano
<cxadams> wolfspraul: the service that we can offer is that not every M1 customer will be able to figure all this out
<cxadams> esp. clubs, galleries
<wolfspraul> oh you bet
<wolfspraul> I know
<cxadams> so we sell that support
<wolfspraul> you are an early pioneer :-)
<lekernel> ...or promote wiimote and laptop based solutions :-)
<wpwrak> (continuing with the patch sharing) and besides music, you need some video input for showing off the patch, too. now, what sources will people use ? for music, probably some non-open material. for video, it could be non-open (3rd party; e.g., music video or such) or potentially open-able (they captured it themselves)
<wolfspraul> lekernel: is it possible to support plugging the composite camera into any of the 3 connectors and just auto-detecting which one it's in?
<wolfspraul> cxadams couldn't hit the right spot in the darkness sometimes...
<wolfspraul> an alternative is to just tape over/lock the wrong ones
<cxadams> wolfspraul: but I got the right connectors, it just didn't work :)
<cxadams> 'connector' rather
<cxadams> nothing to do with darkness
<wolfspraul> sure, it's a separate question
<wolfspraul> but it may come up again, and I don't know the answer :-)
<cxadams> the connector could be labelled more clearly
<wolfspraul> since there is an ADC behind, it may or may not be possible depending on the chip
<cxadams> they all say VIDEO IN I think
<cxadams> one needs a little camera icon
<wolfspraul> yeah
<wolfspraul> well they are all camera, but all 3 for component video (not sure how well that is tested or working right now)
<lekernel> wolfspraul, I don't know. check the adv7181 datasheet...
<wolfspraul> ok
<lekernel> this isn't tested, needs reprogramming one adv7181 register to switch modes
<lekernel> no one did it, even though it's rather straightforward
<wpwrak> (cont'd) so this means that you may not be able to use their example videos, even if they can grab them in some way. but if you could provide known to be free audio and maybe video clips (video could be something coarse, more test image than movie)
<cxadams> I'd love to know the median luminance for each patch
<wolfspraul> I think it will take a long time until we run into the first customer that insists on component video-in
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't worry about that now
<lekernel> we don't have to be anal-retentive about licenses, links to non-free (but OK to use for this purpose) example videos are fine
<wpwrak> blargh. a water pipe broke.
<roh> meh
<wpwrak> it's not us who are the anal-retentive ones ...
<roh> wpwrak: your fault or somebody elses?
<wpwrak> my pipe's fault
<wpwrak> (the flexible one feeding the kitchen sink. luckily, only a small pipe.)
<wpwrak> lekernel: hmm, now i'm confused. so you already have OHCI with navre being part of it. and you have a USB stack from BSD. so what's missing then to enjoy all the perverted joys of the world of USB ?
<lekernel> the navre firmware doesn't implement OHCI
<wpwrak> "Navre is here to help you implement this Rube Goldberg protocol called OHCI." ?
<lekernel> and OHCI will needs a bit more hardware support to generate IRQs (more than the simple system currently in place)
<lekernel> yes, so you can implement this shit protocol with C programming instead of lower-level Verilog
<wpwrak> oh, i see. it could potentially do it, but it currently doesn't
<lekernel> the idea was to go with OHCI right from the start, but after reading more of the spec I dismissed the idea
<lekernel> the current softusb core should let you do OHCI, with some modifications related to IRQs
<lekernel> (of course, OHCI also made the interrupt controller complicated)
<stekern> what usb stack are you using?
<wpwrak> ah, i see. okay, then OHCI would be the next logical step. does the stack from BSD have things like MIDI and storage ?
<lekernel> there's no USB stack, the AVR processor in softusb processes the low-level packets from mouse/keyboard and directly sends the event info to the LM32
<stekern> aah, ok. wpwrak's comment mislead me
<lekernel> iirc it has sloppy storage support and MIDI I don't know
<lekernel> btw there's a MIDI USB class that isn't more crazy than input devices
<lekernel> the fastest way to get MIDI to work is to add support for it into the AVR firmware
<wpwrak> lekernel: didn't you say the BSD USB stack had been ported to RTEMS ?
<lekernel> it has, but I don't know what drivers
<lekernel> the OHCI spec was already a no-go, so I didn't investigate a lot in this direction
<stekern> does it really have to be OHCI compliant?
<wpwrak> yet you seem to almost have OHCI :)
<wpwrak> stekern: probably possible to tweak it a little on both ends. though proper OHCI compatibility may be an advantage
<stekern> I have just written a driver for u-boot for this core: http://opencores.org/project,usbhostslave
<stekern> and it is not ohci compliant
<lekernel> wolfspraul, I don't care about artix 7. it would only provide minor improvements. I only suggested it because it can be a bit cheaper than the s6 we use now, and because it's the logical choice for a new design.
<wolfspraul> I think we should keep the different factors apart
<wolfspraul> if it's cheaper, then obviously I ask "how much?"
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> and the answer is: we don't know
<wolfspraul> availability? don't know
<wolfspraul> so I go back to my booting options. if a-7 allows us to remove the nor flash, that's 10.50 USD less
<wolfspraul> minus whatever the replacement would cost
<wolfspraul> but then I don't understand the focus on bom costs, since our volumes are small and things like yield and pcb/smt overhead are so big in comparison to a few dollars on the bom here or there
<wpwrak> let alone R&D, which also has an opportunity cost
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> I'm working towards cheap entry-level board, we get there
<wolfspraul> I just need hardware improvements so I can breakout a pcba only or last-rev board
<wolfspraul> if you have a great idea for a super efficient artix-7 board, go for it. we will integrate it back into the whole system somehow, surely...
<lekernel> I'm not sure a "board" would even be the right answer, even VJs won't use the M1 because they only think about modul8 vvvv etc. and do not want to spend $499 just to try to see if they can learn a new tool
<wolfspraul> yes go on
<wolfspraul> you want to position the M1 differently?
<lekernel> no, I want a cheap entry level product
<wolfspraul> you think VJs are better off with notebook + VJ software?
<wolfspraul> who is the product for?
<lekernel> same as M1, but for cheap people
<wolfspraul> he :-)
<wolfspraul> I don't understand your argument
<wolfspraul> other than maybe Milkymist is so bad that we can only sell it if we give a free 10 EUR bill with it :-)
<lekernel> simple. $499 for a weird tech product = people do not give a shit
<wolfspraul> at least those would probably go out quickly :-)
<lekernel> what's the way out?
<wolfspraul> nah there are tons of products selling for thousands of USD
<wolfspraul> but there's a reason for that
<wolfspraul> if you cannot make an attractive product, you are screwed, of course. look for another job?
<wolfspraul> you want what? you want to make an innovative product, you want to sell a lot of it, but it's worthless so you can only give it away? huh?
<wolfspraul> that won't work
<wolfspraul> I highly question if M1 sales would be any better if the price were 399 or 299 or 199 now
<wolfspraul> I just don't know
<wolfspraul> we need to find out
<wolfspraul> it might also make more money if we would sell it for more, 599, 799, 999, etc.
<wolfspraul> also we don't know
<wolfspraul> it's just too early for me. I need to get feedback from lots more vjs, hackers, businesses, journalists, distributors, etc.
<wpwrak> (we need to find out) a bit difficult with the same product and if you don't have a successor, so that you can sell the old one at a discount because it's obsolete
<wolfspraul> meanwhile I can imagine some of the VJs that you think don't like your "weird tech product for 499 USD" are buying, just right now, a headphone for their prized ears north of 1000 USD
<wolfspraul> possible? you bet
<wolfspraul> and why?
<lekernel> oh, I'm pretty sure of that
<lekernel> same with Apple gadgets
<wolfspraul> because they see the value of the 1000 USD headphone, but they don't see the value of the 499 USD M1
<wolfspraul> well, that's successful business
<wolfspraul> (for the headphones, not for our neat little M1 :-))
<wpwrak> it is actually VJs who are complaining ? or hackers ?
<wolfspraul> nobody I talked to ever complained about price
<wolfspraul> how could they when the features are so fuzzy?
<wolfspraul> if it's boring, they don't want it at any price
<wolfspraul> and if it's great, they might as well pay more, since they pay a lot for their other tech gear as well
<wolfspraul> so that's the key question. how good is this product for them.
<wolfspraul> notice. emphasis on "FOR THEM"
<wolfspraul> and there's a gap in m1 here and there. We understand the m1 potential, but our users just press a button and either they see it or not.
<wpwrak> quite a few people i talked to gave the impression that they may have considered buying it at a lower price. but none of them are VJs.
<wolfspraul> people who say "I would buy at a lower price" may also just use this as a polite way out.
<wolfspraul> ask yourself: which product can you name that you would buy if it were 20%, 30%, 50% cheaper?
<wpwrak> none of them were asians either ;-)
<wolfspraul> I could not name a single such product.
<wolfspraul> every product I buy is already "price optimized"
<wolfspraul> otherwise I would not buy it
<wpwrak> tricky question. this isn't how the decision process works anyway.
<wolfspraul> of course if I can find it cheaper I would save the money
<wolfspraul> oh sure. that's how you think you can influence people. but it's not that easy.
<wolfspraul> we need to do real price testing, not just think "oh, maybe low cost will help"
<wpwrak> there are things i'd like to buy but decide against it because of the high cost. then i figure out how to live without them.
<wolfspraul> total desperation, this will lead nowhere
<wolfspraul> such as?
<wolfspraul> I did not say 99% cheaper
<wolfspraul> of course I would like to fly in a private jet if it would cost as much as my economy ticket
<wpwrak> so if the price would come down now, i may not reconsider my choice, because i've already spent resources on the plan B.
<wolfspraul> but whether the jet is 5 million USD or 4 million USD doesn't really matter to me
<wolfspraul> which product is that?
<wolfspraul> you should also think through the other way btw. what if we would increase the price of M1 to 999 USD?
<wpwrak> (such as) calibrated spectrum analyzer, bigger monitor, a better scope, some extension cards for my USRP2
<wolfspraul> for sure we would have very nice retail margins then
<wolfspraul> nah you don't make it real
<wolfspraul> that's just a wishlist
<wolfspraul> say you have some particular extension card for usrp2
<wpwrak> these are real purchase-or-not decisions i've made
<wolfspraul> it costs 500 USD now
<wolfspraul> but you will buy it if it were 400 USD?
<wolfspraul> I would argue you would not.
<wolfspraul> if it were 400 USD, you would say "I would buy it if it were 300 USD"
<wolfspraul> in reality you don't need it right now
<wpwrak> yeah, probably not
<wolfspraul> if you really needed it, you would also pay 500 USD
<wpwrak> that's correct. or i can find excuses for not using it, even though it would be an improvement.
<wpwrak> but most purchases are of that kind.
<wpwrak> there's almost nothing that CANNOT wait
<wolfspraul> you buy something when you feel it's a good thing for you
<wolfspraul> that's why people paid 2000 USD for their home computer in the 80's
<wolfspraul> even though it could do nothing
<wolfspraul> anyway
<wpwrak> in fact, it's more a relation between what i perceive as disposable money, role of the things, and what things cost
<wolfspraul> reducing the M1 price from 499 now, even dramatically, will kill the product and brand
<wolfspraul> after 12 months we can consider a reduction to 399
<wolfspraul> depending on feedback from business partners, retail and distributors
<wolfspraul> and that would be a sign of weakness btw!
<wolfspraul> that means we are not able to finance and come up with improvements that allow us to keep the price at 499
<wolfspraul> our distributors and retailers will not like that
<wolfspraul> way too early now, I need much more feedback. 499 USD is a fantastic price right now, imho.
<wpwrak> if after one year you don't have a successor or are at least working on one, then the product is dead anyway
<wolfspraul> I will think about it more though, maybe I'm wrong :-)
<lekernel> I never said we should stop the $499 M1. again: I proposed a cheap entry level product IN ADDITION to the M1
<wolfspraul> yeah but how to market that
<lekernel> and yes, media blackout/unpopularity = massive weakness
<wolfspraul> I already said - you do that with the LAST GENERATION typically
<wolfspraul> gee maybe it's unpopular for a reason
<wolfspraul> you cannot force others to see the world your way
<wolfspraul> you may try, but you see the reality now :-)
<wolfspraul> for low-cost, the right way to do that is with last-gen imho
<wolfspraul> let's ask Simon and other serious potential business partners
<wolfspraul> I like the "499 USD screen saver" comment on slashdot
<wolfspraul> made me laugh
<wolfspraul> ignorance is bliss
<wpwrak> that's what you get for marketing it as a device that will do nice things when unattended
<wpwrak> of course it's a screen saver !
<wolfspraul> k calling it a day
<wolfspraul> I love my M1
<wolfspraul> I'm sorry for people who think it's not worth 499 USD
<wolfspraul> may they happily spend their money elsewhere
<wolfspraul> and don't tell me what it is, please :-)
<wpwrak> given the current volume, does it actually cover costs ?
<wolfspraul> hard to say, not really
<wolfspraul> but I get very good feedback from people who buy one
<wpwrak> so the price is already subsidized in a way ? i.e., it costs you more to make one than you earn with it ?
<wolfspraul> there just needs to be someone among them who comes back with a bigger order, or bigger real business
<wolfspraul> no no
<wolfspraul> not at all
<wolfspraul> all numbers are public
<lekernel> well... the situation isn't totally dramatic: of course, for a very small minority, it's great
<wolfspraul> the free part are the working hours
<wolfspraul> I am not different from you or Sebastien or Jon or others in that regard
<wpwrak> (cost to make) bom, fabs, logistics, share of adam's time, share of wolfgang's time, sebastien's share of the revenue, etc.
<wpwrak> lekernel: i think it's way too early to say who things will go
<wolfspraul> sebastien's share is so tiny and he is so reluctant in even having me pay it, basically we can say it's also zero
<wolfspraul> even a Chinese garbage collector would cry at that kind of hourly wage
<wolfspraul> ;-)
<wolfspraul> this box needs to sell thousands of units, and sooner or later it will
<wolfspraul> and now I go to sleep :-)
<wolfspraul> n8
<wpwrak> lekernel: also consider this: about half of the M1rc3 made are already sold - within ~3 weeks. it will probably be ~2 months until M1rc4 is available. you probably have too much demand already ;-)
<lekernel> gn8
<lekernel> wpwrak, the hype surrounding things like the raspberry is what I would call "too much demand"
<lekernel> unfortunately we're nowhere near it, even though the M1 isn't vaporware contrary to the raspberry
<wpwrak> okay, but they are toys
<wpwrak> and 99.9% of the people who think these toys are cool won't buy them anyway
<wpwrak> but they like the idea of a computer that costs almost nothing. of course. everybody does. how many OLPC have you bought lately ? ;-)
<lekernel> none. but at least OLPC also had a decent share of media exposure.
<wpwrak> oh, you can have that, too. wait until the pope visits the next time, then run naked in front of the car. voila, you'll be in all the newspapers. with only 10 seconds of work ;-)
<lekernel> etc. etc.
<lekernel> those graph are galling
<wpwrak> break into steve job's home, put an M1 under a hard to reach but not completely inaccessible place, leave again without leaving other traces. wait. when they find it, the mystery device will be in all the news.
<wpwrak> you're in the wrong biz :)
<lekernel> haha, good point
<wpwrak> media attention is poor, agreed on that. but i'm not so sure it's the media's fault
<wpwrak> first of all, the last "launch" was weird. confusing exclusive article on the reg and no announcement for others to follow up on. not even on our mailing lists.
<lekernel> well, after being ignored by a dozen other news sites, I finally got it reposted on /.
<wpwrak> also the marketing message keeps on shifting. once it's a tool for VJs, the next day it's a screen saver or slide show, then a cheap toy for developers, ...
<lekernel> mh?
<wpwrak> yes, good to get it into /.
<lekernel> I only get the last part of what you are talking about, and this was an internal message on a mailing list with ~80 subscribers
<wpwrak> /. has at least some coverage
<wpwrak> the screen saver is what's been making the round lately: try to sell M1 to clubs/bars/etc. as a device that will provide visuals without a VJ
<wpwrak> the problem is that it doesn't work like that, as anyone can see who actually tries to demo it :)
<wpwrak> so i've shown it to a friend who is also a hobby musician, actor, and who knows what else. in my office, i think with sound coming from the radio or my kaossilator. no adjustment of controls. wasn't very impressive.
<cxadams> wpwrak: have you ever used it with a real sound system?
<wpwrak> a few days later, i showed it to some more friends, on the TV. this time i adjusted audio sensitivity. (messily, by changing the volume of the PC that was playing it, and then compensating on the TV that had the speakers. the M1 in the middle.)
<wpwrak> there it already looked much better. some of the effects came to life. but of course, this was senselessly geekish. (the audience were geeks.)
<cxadams> in warsaw we had girls dancing in front of the projected light
<cxadams> just saying
<cxadams> you have to know how to throw a party, to use the M1
<wpwrak> cxadams: no. i'm trying to figure out what it takes to reach the point where i could tell a friend "take this to a club and you won't make a complete fool of yourself"
<wpwrak> yes, girls are important. but before i invite them to dance i want the controls covered. and i'll have to give the camera issue a closer look. i'm not very happy with the images i get so far.
<wpwrak> plus, i know that without better controls, the camera is very difficult to handle. maybe even with better controls, but i can't tell yet
<wpwrak> hmm, we'll have new moon on december 24. that could be an opportunity for a M1-enhanced party :)
<wpwrak> and i also need to do something about the firing control for my firework. but perhaps i won't automate these. remote electrical ignition alone should do.
<wpwrak> lekernel: btw, one big blocker for contributions, at least from my side, is that flickernoise HEAD doesn't work. (if i understand things properly, there's first a build issue, but even if i'd overcome this, i'd then hit the RTEMS hang)
<lekernel> there's no build issue that I know of, and I actually find it very annoying that this bug has been around for months simply because I wasn't there to fix it
<wpwrak> lekernel: e.g., i my have tried to clean up the parser, but since this touches a lot of files, wouldn't do such a thing on an old branch. (i don't think i'll have time for messing with the parser now, so it's not that urgent an issue at the moment. but of course, others may bump into the same.)
<lekernel> the only new thing in HEAD is RTEMS upstream support (which also introduced the lag bug)
<lekernel> there aren't a lot of changes, and none that touches the parser
<wpwrak> (nobody else fixed it) well, there may not be a lot of RTEMS experts around here :)
<lekernel> and even fewer Linux experts for this kind of problems
<wpwrak> so you're saying that one should simply forget about HEAD and all further development will be based on stable_1.0
<wpwrak> ?
<lekernel> no, we should just fix that fucking bug
<lekernel> I have no idea of the difficulty, I have simply not looked into it
<wpwrak> (linux experts) hmmm, you may greatly underestimate the expertise available for chasing weird issues in linux :)
<lekernel> come on, Linux caused gazillions of problems like that, and then some more. I didn't switch to RTEMS for no reason.
<lekernel> the only way you can change my mind about this is by demonstrating a fully working Flickernoise on Linux
<wpwrak> yeah, that still has some prerequisites. i wish i had the resources to work that, by the way, but my time is running out, too.
<wpwrak> one thing that helps with linux is that there are a lot more people around who can tell you where things go wrong as long it's not a problem in your platform-specific code
<wpwrak> plus, many people can fix things. because it's something they've done before. even in the kernel.
<wpwrak> with a new OS, even if it's super-friendly, you need to learn many things again and you'll lose time making mistakes because you overlook some differences
<lekernel> BTDT and now I'm happy with RTEMS.
<wpwrak> now we just have to perfect the vulcan mind meld and everyone else will be able to benefit from your experience and happiness with RTEMS :)
<wpwrak> ah well, enough bickering. time to go and look for a controller.
<wpwrak> oh, by the way, one last thing: if you want to bring M1s to developers, maybe consider selling production dropouts that have only a relatively minor flaw. (not sure if there are any, but may be worth a consideration)
<stekern> are there any plans of selling any "board only" packages? i.e. without the case and the silicon keyboard etc.
<stekern> I know there was that early adopters version, but I guess I missed that train ;)
<wpwrak> oh, i found the MIDI bindings ;-)
<wpwrak> so all file-based ?
<wpwrak> hmm, and tweaking patch parameters is hard-coded to DMX ?
<wpwrak> hmm, seems that only patch selection is in the GUI, but no parameter control is somewhere else. need more research :)