Topic for #milkymist is now Milkymist One, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise development channel (LLHDL/Antares are welcome too) :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: JFDI
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<stekern>
wpwrak: it's a mouse and keyboard. It's the keyboard that is trigging the error messages, but the mouse isn't really working either anymore.
<stekern>
the error messages are not always the same neither
<xiangfu>
stekern, thanks for report the bug.(about reflash_m1.sh). I will try to fix it.
<stekern>
xiangfu: nice one
<wpwrak>
wow. an even a low-speed device !
<wpwrak>
stekern: what does lsusb -v on a linux pc have to say about it ?
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: btw, i think it would be good to have a file with md5sums or sha1sums, and have reflash_m1.sh check them. that way, if someone starts a reflash and hits ^C in download, you don't end up using a bad cache
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, yes. that is what --snapshot do. :)
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, oh. --snapshot only check once before the download. yes. it should be better check again before release.
<stekern>
so I was wrong when I said that only the KB shows errors in BIOS
<wpwrak>
okay, that explains why it doesn't work :)
<wpwrak>
the only thing nasty i get are a few rx timeout errors. but maybe that's the same
<stekern>
I could run a bisect on it to see what broke it, but do you have any suspicions yourself?
<wpwrak>
for now, i'll chase my rx timeout. some changes affect others in strange ways, so i first want to bring a bit of order in this stack
<stekern>
ok, yeah makes sense. might be that finding the guilty commit isn't going to give information about the root cause, if it's just coincidential
<wpwrak>
i suspect it may be the loop unrolling, which changed timings all over the place. so anything else what was marginal may have fallen over, etc.
<stekern>
222
<stekern>
oops
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<wolfspraul>
good news - we sold a Milkymist One to a low-volume/artsy furniture maker
<wolfspraul>
she has something called 'media wall' that integrates a projector/screen, and dmx-controlled lights and lasers
<wolfspraul>
so xiangfu has some work now ;-) he will get that same dmx equipment and try to integrate it all well into the media wall
<wolfspraul>
first public appearance is next Friday, where we will also try to take some pictures or videos
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<whitequark>
interesting
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<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: dmx furniture. very wow ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, how's the M1 stock forecast ?
<wolfspraul>
yeah, and about pricing. she paid 500 USD without even asking how much it is until after she made the decision to try this out in her media wall.
<wolfspraul>
which makes sense, if the speakers in the media wall cost a little over 6000 USD, for comparison
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wolfspraul>
"stock forecast" :-)
<wolfspraul>
no forecast, we sell one by one and unless we find new distributors/resellers we will have plenty of stock for a while
<wpwrak>
not worried about running out of stock yet ? :)
<wolfspraul>
sold around 40 now, as before
<wolfspraul>
not worried
<wpwrak>
ah, good.
<wolfspraul>
I am worried about pusing to rc4 as hard and fast as possible
<wolfspraul>
cannot let down
<wpwrak>
ironically, selling too well is a risk for M1rc3 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
then worst case we take some rc3 boards out and think of alternative use cases for them
<wolfspraul>
oh we can handle it either way
<wolfspraul>
the important thing is what sebastien calls more 'publicity'
<wolfspraul>
I'd rather say we need to get the product into the hands of more excited users who spread the word
<wpwrak>
(pub) yup, but let's be at our best, with sunday clothes on and prepared. public attention can be a tad embarassing if they catch you with a 4 days beard and in your underwear
<wolfspraul>
sure
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<wpwrak>
yes, that too. we still have to work the music side. so far, we went mainly to the IT geeks
<wpwrak>
btw, any more reactions from heise ?
<wolfspraul>
no no :-)
<wolfspraul>
and I wouldn't expect that as I said
<wpwrak>
okay. there's no hurry there
<wolfspraul>
journalists are flooded with stuff, just the other day rejon and I went to dinner with one who said he deletes everything sent to him
<wolfspraul>
the way he writes his stories is by going out and searching and finding them himself
<wolfspraul>
I'm not surprised hearing that
<wpwrak>
funny :)
<wpwrak>
at least not the lazy type
<wpwrak>
for heise, perhaps you could try my text. that one puts things into the right perspective. ah, one thing is missing - shuold also give a forecast for the "final" version (i.e., the one not just for freaks and developers)
<lekernel>
what's missing?
<lekernel>
documentation? what else?
<wpwrak>
full-speed usb, usb-midi, more midi variables, better handling of them, more efficient midi processing, ... (and that's just the midi side ;-)
<wpwrak>
then we have of course dvi out that will only come in m1rc4. get rid of the "vga only" taunting :)
<wpwrak>
btw, i've noticed some color borders inside gradients lately. i think they're a new "feature", but haven't checked against an older version yet
<lekernel>
?
<lekernel>
what gradients?
<wpwrak>
when i have adjacent areas of similar color (or different shades of the same color), there's sometimes a ~1 pixel band at the edge that's neither of the two colors or something in between
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: how about the LV3 ?
<wpwrak>
lemme see if i can snap a picture
<lekernel>
where? GUI? patches? with which version?
<wolfspraul>
it sounds it needs more work on the full-speed, usb-midi and variable/flickernoise side
<wpwrak>
latest version :)
<lekernel>
where?
<wolfspraul>
have to test picture support a little, I think we need to work on how to get pictures to the m1. but looks like we have a great start now.
<lekernel>
and latest version of what? soc? fn?
<wolfspraul>
for the media wall, I need a way to disable standby, so that after a power disconnect the m1 comes back rendering by itself
<wolfspraul>
how about the 5-6-5 greenish problem - any plans to work on that?
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: needs full speed support, which is a massive problem with USB..
<lekernel>
it doesn't enumerate at all atm
<lekernel>
complete silence
<lekernel>
I don't know what wpwrak has in mind with "better MIDI support", the only problem I see is it'd need the ability to listen on multiple channels, which is minor
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: ok so what are your next plans? I can always give you long wishlists if you want :-)
<wpwrak>
should be latest of everything
<wolfspraul>
I hope we get the lv3 to work, for example. we can start selling as a bundle and cross-sell a little
<wolfspraul>
(or other faderfox controllers, not just lv3)
<wpwrak>
lemme show it ...
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: if you can justify them...
<wolfspraul>
if we cannot get usb-midi to work, then we have the option of taking some of his old din-midi controllers, but he has limited stock and availability
<lekernel>
wpwrak: that appeared with soc 1.1, right?
<wpwrak>
i think so, yes. i noticed it after image support, but maybe it was there before
<wolfspraul>
ah they need a jtag reflash because the standby bitstream is not updated over the web update, right?
<wolfspraul>
well, I think that's ok
<wolfspraul>
we have a very limited user base and the few that are active are easily reachable
<lekernel>
maybe it's a small (as in number of lines of code to modify, but that's often inversely proportional to the time wastage potential) bug introduced with prefetching
<wpwrak>
and they all have jtag :)
<wolfspraul>
plus this is a specialized feature likely only valuable to new customers anyway, someone who wants to embed m1 in a larger installation
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: so yes, remove standby would be great I think
<wolfspraul>
jtag reflash should be ok
<wpwrak>
itsa bti strange that it precisely follows gradients. but yes, prefetching would be the sort of major change that could have such an effect
<wpwrak>
in any case, it makes one look for vga hardware problems. cable reflections and such :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think all the rest of the users will also celebrate the removal of standby :) though it would be nice to have a FN -> off state. but that could perhaps be entirely inside FN.
<wolfspraul>
why is a black screen on startup better than no signal? (just curious)
<wolfspraul>
(reading the 1.1 changelog)
<wpwrak>
no signal looks like "it shut down again"
<wpwrak>
and "intelligent" displays may go on a rampage then, trying to find out which other of their 1000 input sources have a valid signal
<wpwrak>
the comments also explain how some of the things work
<wpwrak>
it doesn't use MIDI to alter LEDs, though
<wpwrak>
i don't even know if we have OSC -> MIDI. checking ...
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<wpwrak>
hmm, i guess not. even though there is a send callback
<lekernel>
if we remove standby, how do we sync the flash filesystem safely?
<wpwrak>
have the standby loop in FN ?
<wolfspraul>
don't understand. you mean on software shutdown?
<lekernel>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I think we can safely say most people don't use that, 90% or more will unplug the DC cable.
<wolfspraul>
so even if you remove the safe syncing, you actually don't remove it because people don't use it
<wpwrak>
that's probably a very correct assessment :)
<lekernel>
so? just rely on the 10s periodic write cache flush?
<wolfspraul>
same as we do now when people unplug DC, yes
<wpwrak>
maybe make it faster :)
<wpwrak>
people will not know about those 10 seconds. they just have "things go wrong" from time to time
<wpwrak>
conclusion if this happens too often: m1 is unreliable
<wolfspraul>
no difference from now. people don't use the software shutdown, if Sebastien uses it maybe he's the only one...
<wolfspraul>
so...
<wolfspraul>
since everybody loves sales numbers
<wolfspraul>
we sold 43 rc3 to date
<wolfspraul>
real sales
<wolfspraul>
5 to the US
<wolfspraul>
1 to China, 2 to Taiwan
<wolfspraul>
2 to Australia
<wolfspraul>
33 to Europe
<wolfspraul>
does this add up?
<wolfspraul>
33+2+2+1+5=43
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
good results I think. if we keep pushing with strong updates and regular sales activity and spreading the news, it might actually take off :-)
<wpwrak>
real sale = to customer. or also including to distributors ?
<wolfspraul>
also to distributors
<lekernel>
no news from MSL by the way?
<wpwrak>
okay, so some more are sitting at distributors. maybe ~30 in the field then ?
<wolfspraul>
could be, yes
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: I think the news from MSL is very clear
<wolfspraul>
at least to me
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
so that would mean that, if the rate stays roughly the same, you'll have stock until the end of the year
<wolfspraul>
until today they haven't replied to very simple questions about payment terms, even though I asked 3 times by now
<wolfspraul>
M1 doesn't fit their business model, imho
<wolfspraul>
I'd say - move on
<wpwrak>
probably won't be able to sneak m1rc4 in before CNY. ah well, it's just one week plus ripples.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: oh I don't calculate like that
<wolfspraul>
M1 sales are still very slow and the result of heavy one-on-one efforts
<wolfspraul>
90% of them
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's true
<wolfspraul>
the product has to get into the hands of someone who truly likes it
<wolfspraul>
not just in words, but in actions
<wolfspraul>
we cannot accelerate that happening much beyond what we do already, and our own belief in the product, and improving the product
<wolfspraul>
it's on a very good track imho
<wpwrak>
lekernel: have you thought of touring some clubs in berlin ? offer them a free night of vjing. if they accept, spread the word on the online fora vjs hang out on, so they come and have a look
<wolfspraul>
ah yes, quite a few things you could do in Berlin
<wolfspraul>
such as that de-bug.de music magazine, show m1 to them
<wolfspraul>
and then this schneider's laden
<lekernel>
i was handing out brochures yesterday again *g*
<wolfspraul>
great!
<wolfspraul>
please continue to believe in the product
<wolfspraul>
it has a chance if you like it and push forward, really
<wolfspraul>
I think so :-)
<lekernel>
actually, my scopesession presentation did have some impact, at least locally
<wolfspraul>
just had that good experience at the furniture maker today
<wpwrak>
the "free vj night" should be a very slow night. one on which the other vjs aren't busy :)
<wolfspraul>
the next level can only come if we run into someone with *serious* business interest
<wolfspraul>
and sooner or later we will be a little lucky and run into that person
<lekernel>
btw, I have totally run out of stickers, and I only have 10 or so brochures
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: speaking of which, how's the investor hunt going on your side ? :)
<wolfspraul>
in the meantime we should believe in the product ourselves, use it, and continuously improve it
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: that can be fixed ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I am also not 100% sure what is more important now - spend working hours on sales activity, or spend working hours adding features
<wolfspraul>
usb-midi is probably still something super important, most people from the dj/vj scene will ask for it at some point
<wolfspraul>
but one by one
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: investor hunt, ask Jon
<wolfspraul>
I'm on the customer hunt
<wolfspraul>
Jon has a good presentation at Intel in a few days
<wolfspraul>
he will use his M1 for presentations now ;-)
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: can you look into presenting m1 at de-bug.de or schneider's laden?
<wolfspraul>
we should also see what's going on at bearstech
<wolfspraul>
they had all these great plans with 10 units a month etc., and I accepted all their terms, but after my mail silence :-)
<wolfspraul>
on the other side I am sure when they run out, they know where to ask...
<lekernel>
guyzmo ?
<lekernel>
and de-bug/schneider's lader, yes ...
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: did I send you 1 or 2 rc3 ?
<lekernel>
1
<wolfspraul>
my records show 1, but my memory somehow says 2
<wolfspraul>
ah ok
<wolfspraul>
good you can use that to show around, or even sell if you can :-)
<lekernel>
I haven't tried to sell it... I need it to show around
<wpwrak>
mmh. that's what i thought :-( then we're doomed.
<lekernel>
wpwrak: ?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: i dont expect jon to be able to find useful investors for the project. and wolfgang isn't even trying.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: what jon finds are people who have interesting projects of their own. but M1 isn't part of their plans.
<lekernel>
the mozilla thing isn't too bad imo
<lekernel>
if there can be little customization
<lekernel>
and if they're happy with PAL resolution video
<wpwrak>
lekernel: and anything more flexible takes a lot of time. if jon would have been working on this since, say, 2-4 years ago, he wuold have a good lineup by now
<wolfspraul>
too much theory
<wolfspraul>
the next step for m1 is to find an individual that helps us take it to the next level
<wpwrak>
yes, a knight in shining armor ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no it always works like this
<wpwrak>
indeed. that's how gotham city got save every single time (-:C
<wolfspraul>
someone has to like the product and team
<wpwrak>
indeed. it's better if your investors don't hate you just yet :)
<wolfspraul>
was off by 1, 42 sold
<wpwrak>
lucky number :)
<wolfspraul>
regarding investors, I can only repeat
<wolfspraul>
there is no money to fund a hobby
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist One has to fight for its position in a competitive market
<wolfspraul>
and an investor, or customer, has to believe in the strength of the product
<wolfspraul>
that's the only honest and long-term functioning way to do it
<wolfspraul>
the world can easily live without Milkymist One, or the entire Milkymist - guaranteed
<wolfspraul>
not many people will miss it
<wolfspraul>
so we have to make a big point about why it's great and cool and will have a future
<wolfspraul>
your summary of "don't expect Jon to find" and "wolfgang isn't even trying" is both wrong
<wolfspraul>
there's a lot of rich folks in Argentina I read - why don't you chat them up in your favorite nightclub and make them fork over a cool million or two? :-)
<wolfspraul>
instead of spending it on a yacht upgrade, for example
<wolfspraul>
so rather than chasing this kind of illusion, I work my way bottom up. it feels great and we make progress and eventually we get the due rewards.
<wolfspraul>
what those rewards will exactly be is yet to be found-out :-)
<wolfspraul>
I always think we are just one small step away from some big break-through, of course I have no problem feeling like this for years :-)
<lekernel>
illusion? it was the case with openmoko, no?
<wolfspraul>
openmoko was privately financed much like milkymist is
<wolfspraul>
of course milkymist has a lot less financial power, but the financing background is the same
<wolfspraul>
we should actually get outside investors, I agree with werner
<wolfspraul>
even if they would bring in some harsh dose of realidad :-)
<wolfspraul>
at least since our tech is all free, this option always remains open, which is great
<wolfspraul>
at this point I would work down the many leads we have in our minds, magazines, journalists, retail stores, friends, etc.
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: you can shoot emails in all directions that we have M1 ready now and people should buy it and be inspired about what it can do today and tomorrow...
<wolfspraul>
and then either they take the bait or not
<wpwrak>
(finance a hobby) doesn't matter if it's a hobby :) you're not selling the fun of doing it but the potential as a product. i'd say M1 is in rather good shape for that, with most of the R&D risk already removed. still needs some more work and has to spend more time with with focus group, but the project should look rather tasty to investors.
<wolfspraul>
if not, we need to think why not and what we can improve
<wolfspraul>
yes I don't disagree
<wolfspraul>
so no need to talk to each other here, we need to go out and find new friends
<wolfspraul>
which Jon for example is doing every single day
<wolfspraul>
either people like it or not - at some point you also have to give some space for people to simply not be interested, not get it, think it's a fad, etc.
<wolfspraul>
that's life
<wolfspraul>
if the entire Milkymist disappears from Earth tomorrow, not many people will miss it. we have to change that first.
<wolfspraul>
which I believe is happening
<wpwrak>
(access to rich people) that's what takes time. if they're not good at fending off the 99.9% who'd want some of that money, too, they're not rich anymore :)
<wolfspraul>
I was really relieved to get the good feedback from n0carrier, for example
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: correct!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
so we have a live study now with n0carrier - how long will his Milkymist passion last?
<wolfspraul>
and when is the product drawered
<wpwrak>
so i dedicate only a small fraction of my time on that. i'm not completely dismissing this route, but it's a very very long shot
<wolfspraul>
I hope it lasts, and I hope we can keep making it worthwhile for him
<wolfspraul>
but it's not for granted, the rest of the world is also working
<wpwrak>
n0carrier is a very promising start. we need a lot more feedback from the field. that's why i'm asking about the possibility of taking M1 to clubs, to demo it there.
<wpwrak>
this will also help to refine the communication with the focus group
<wolfspraul>
of course
<wpwrak>
think of your favourite VJ coming to you with an IT project he dreamed up. i'm sure you'll poke it full of holes within mere minutes.
<wolfspraul>
I will make another sales attempt at Lantern Club in due time
<wolfspraul>
you want to try to sell some in Buenos Aires? :-)
<wpwrak>
part of it will be that he'll be sending all the wrong competence signals. signals you've spent a decade and more detecting and interpreting.
<wpwrak>
BUE is difficult due to very high taxes and import restrictions. also, i won't try to start pushing it if my involvement is about to end.
<wpwrak>
but yes, i considered the possibility of showing it around here
<wolfspraul>
you will quickly realize it has marginal value only right now, an exotic novelty
<wolfspraul>
so you need *A LOT* of love on the other side to proceed thinking about it more, or even buying one
<wolfspraul>
not sure how to overcome this yet, I keep learning
<wpwrak>
correct. the main objective would not be to sell it on the spot but to first get feedback. establish contacts, etc. prepare for the "real launch", maybe in april or may.
<lekernel>
have an inspiring concept? like mixing an ipad with a wacom tablet for the next Milkymist UI :)
<wpwrak>
why the wacom ? :)
<lekernel>
because you can do tons of stuff with the pen
<lekernel>
pressure sensitive
<wpwrak>
and yes, in my mental image, i see a touch screen on the top of the perfect milkymist :)
<lekernel>
rotation sensitive
<lekernel>
i.e. you can touch a control with the pen, and rotate it to change its value
<wpwrak>
you may have noticed that i started to use "milkymist" and "milkymist one" as distinct terms :)
<lekernel>
tilt sensitive
<wpwrak>
lekernel: you're still control-starved ;-) you shuold play a bit with the LV3. that'll cure this :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah please get the lv3 to work
<wpwrak>
you can already use it (via a PC)
<wolfspraul>
since we already started this with faderfox, a good direction I think
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<wolfspraul>
of course maybe we have to give up, but sounds a little premature to conclude this right now
<wpwrak>
usb-midi is a given. we need that anyway.
<wolfspraul>
oh btw, I think I mentioned it earlier - xiangfu will start to look into dmx this week
<wolfspraul>
he will buy some equipment and off he goes, and hopefully can produce some results quick, in the form of documentation, patches, fixes
<wolfspraul>
I hope he doesn't immediately run into major low-level bugs...
<lekernel>
worst case we'll just throw in some proprietary USB ASIC and let some engineers in the dark care about petty USB idiosyncrasies
<wpwrak>
LV3 depends on whether we find it convenient to use. that'll take a bit of time. you need to spend a day or two with each control concept before your brain has adapted to it
<wpwrak>
lekernel: have you joined wolfgang's defeatist's club ? :)
<wolfspraul>
that kind of logic makes people think whether the entire Milkymist concept may be wrong btw :-)
<wpwrak>
(xiangfu) yeah, you mentioned that you landed him a DMX contract :)
<wolfspraul>
so...
<wolfspraul>
Raspberry Pi! :-)
<lekernel>
s/Milkymist/open source hardware/ :-)
<wolfspraul>
"dmx contract" sounds a little hyperbole
<wolfspraul>
but it's a paying customer and we use the chance to dive into dmx
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: Arduino is doing well, and maybe Raspberry Pi next? :-)
<wpwrak>
your customers must love you. they buy a USD 500 box and get USD 5000 worth of consulting for free ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't know any/enough details on the usb situation, so it's hard for me to say
<wolfspraul>
I can just watch and follow the arguments
<wolfspraul>
but if it's too hard to get full-speed usb to work, hmmm....
<wolfspraul>
that will make a lot of people think
<wpwrak>
but well, if it gets DMX properly tested and debugged, ...
<wpwrak>
hey ! full-speed "works for me" ;-))
<wolfspraul>
sure I know
<wpwrak>
(doing my best sebastien impersonation :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm just saying how others may look at things and interpret them
<wpwrak>
the remaining bugs will die, too
<wolfspraul>
I think it's just bugs bugs bugs, and details we don't understand, maybe hard to fix etc.
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: both arduino and raspberry pi rely on some proprietary ASIC company to take care of >99% of their project's technical details
<wolfspraul>
but if we give up - after how much effort? - then what should others think?
<lekernel>
this isn't what I call open source hardware
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wpwrak>
in an open source project, bugs are always visible to everyone. nothing new there in the last 20+ years
<wolfspraul>
but they are not struggling with full-speed usb, not even with high-speed usb
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<lekernel>
of course - the pesky details have been handled for them by the ASIC manufacturer
<wolfspraul>
I am just describing how others may perceive things.
<wolfspraul>
we can say "usb is low-speed only"
<lekernel>
just like on our USB-JTAG cable
<wolfspraul>
no problem
<wolfspraul>
but it's a really tough thing to say
<wolfspraul>
basically it means keyboard and mice only (and even there we still seem to run into bugs)
<wpwrak>
naw, full-speed will be there. that's a problem that can be solved.
<wolfspraul>
hopefully, yeah
<wpwrak>
just way a few more years, and mice and keyboard will switch to full-speed too.
<wolfspraul>
otherwise din-midi controller can fill in for a while
<wolfspraul>
but we have to believe that we get full-speed usb to work
<wolfspraul>
otherwise we cannot find new people to join, customers, let alone 'investors' - how do we explain to them what we do here?
<wolfspraul>
they will think we are crazy :-)
<wpwrak>
i don't see any fundamental problem. it's not as if we'd be pushing the limits of the FPGA anywhere.
<wpwrak>
most likely, CRC will have to go into the FPGA. LFSRs are made for that.
<wolfspraul>
have you tried your lv3 directly on m1?
<wpwrak>
worst case would be that sending of ACK would also have to go into the FPGA. but i don't think that'll be necessary. the timing with navre is tight but not hopeless.
<wpwrak>
we don't have usb-midi protocol support on M1 yet
<lekernel>
wpwrak: we can increase the frequency to 72MHz too
<lekernel>
wpwrak: does your lv3 enumerate at all?
<wpwrak>
let's see ...
<lekernel>
last time I tried all I got from mine is silence
<wpwrak>
hmm. and maybe i shuld flash a soc that actually works :)
<wpwrak>
RX timeout error and SETUP not ACKed .. then VID: 0853, PID: 0100
<wpwrak>
but that's the hhkb. without it ...
<wpwrak>
just timeout and no ack
<Alarm>
Hello I have questions to ask about the organization of files in the SDK Milkymist. I'm confused
<Alarm>
saw the list of files to flash the M1. I do not know what is the use some files?
<Alarm>
for example standby.fpg ?
<lekernel>
standby.fpg is the first bitstream to be loaded, which then loads the regular or rescue bitstream depending if btn1 is pressed or not
<GitHub38>
[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/RwBYPw
<guyzmo>
lekernel - FYI, I was at the Educatec convention last week, and there has been a couple of teachers (engineering school and university) that looked interested in the milkymist (I'll recontact them next week to see if it's for real...) and there has been a couple of A/V technicians that were interested as well.
<Alarm>
I am back. what I want is an overview of the software layers
<xiangfu>
Alarm, it's just a picture. for splash screen.
<wpwrak>
(progress bar) i think M1 wants an OSD :) and yes, it should be on (at least to some degree) in "simple mode". simply to make sure people know it's there.
<wpwrak>
(osd) it should show controls settings and other patch-related status (e.g., audio level, interface use, etc.)
<wpwrak>
i would get rid of the "simple mode" as something that looks good to the public completely. that's the "USD 500 screensaver" once more
<Alarm>
xiangfu, "raw" is an image format. I did not know. sorry.
<wpwrak>
Alarm: bios is completely from inside milkymist.git; flickernoise is from milkymist.git, rtems, rtems-yaffs, flickernoise.git, plus some more libraries i just took from the SDK but never bothered to build myself
<xiangfu>
Alarm, it's not a image format.
<wpwrak>
you could say that "raw" is the format the bare metal uses. but as such it's a class of formats. basically all formats that are not "nice", with platform-independent codings, headers, etc.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, thanks :)
<Alarm>
How drivers keyboard and mouse are implemented?
<wpwrak>
Alarm: there's bit-level support in the SOC. that then passes bytes up to an embedded AVR (navre). that one does the packet processing and above (it implements the entire USB stack)
<wpwrak>
Alarm: that navre then sends the keyboard or mouse data to the lm32, which can then run bios or flickernoise. in the case of flickernoise, you can see the last steps of keyboard/mouse processing in the input.c whose path xiangfu just sent
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, you mean it's like bit-leval-from-soc --> AVR --> back-to-soc --> bios/flickernoise?
<xiangfu>
I though it is bit-leval-from-soc --> AVR --> bios/flickernoise.
<wpwrak>
well yes, there's soc ("hw") support for the mechanism with which avr and lm32 communicate. haven't looked at the details yet
<wpwrak>
but it's not as if there fpga did much with the higher-level data. it just passes it on.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, got it. thanks.
<wpwrak>
in the case of it's ---(unsynchronized bit-serial stream)--> SOC ---(bytes)--> AVR --(buttons and coordinates)--[soc]--> LM32
<whitequark>
eh
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, why the last is LM32?
<whitequark>
USB stack in an embedded AVR when you have an entire SOC? sorry, sounds like a "wtf" for me... I don't quite get the idea
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, I think the soc(the soc bitstream) is LM32.
<wpwrak>
lekernel: btw, here's how to play with the lv3: cd wernermisc.git/midi2osc/; make; ./midi2osc `sed 's/#.*//' LV3` address_of_m1
<wpwrak>
lekernel: you can also give the option -d to get debug output, so you can see what gets sent
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: LM32 is the cpu core. i think the entire soc is called "milkymist soc"
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i don't like it either
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, now. understand.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i think lekernel didn't want to have to mess with rtems and didn't want to implement a complete host controller (for which rtems would have drivers), so he implemented the little he needed in the avr
<wpwrak>
whitequark: there may also be historical issues. e.g., if rtems usb wasn't usable when he started working on usb, it would have made sense to avoid it
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, on more question: ((unsynchronized bit-serial stream)--> SOC ---(bytes)) this is done in FPGA, right?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: also, for moving bits around, the lm32 isn't much faster than the navre
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: correct, yes. the fpga reconstructs the clock, finds packet beginning/end in the incoming data, and retrieves bytes
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, and AVR code is running in bios. (memory) right? just want make sure.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, so the soc.fpg include LM32 and other stuff. (like this one)
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: i think navre has its own memory. but bios and flickernoise can change the program there. they do this when initializing. after that, the avr is on its own
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: yes, soc.fpg contains the usb serial engine, the avr core of navre, the lm32 core, the graphics processor, the UARTs, and so on
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, that is a System On Chip. understand now. thanks
Topic for #milkymist is now Milkymist One, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise development channel (LLHDL/Antares are welcome too) :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: JFDI
whitequa1k joined #milkymist
<whitequark>
wpwrak: the strange world of fpgas...