<wolfspraul>
Broadcom VideoCore IV, OpenGL ES 2.0, 1080p30 H.264
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
'Milkymist' is listed on the "See Also" list on that wikipedia page
<wpwrak>
so a bit of raspberry fame will rub off ;-)
<wolfspraul>
ha :-)
<wolfspraul>
it seems the raspberry project goes back to at least 2006
<wpwrak>
so milkymist is pretty much on schedule. only 4 years, still one missing even to vapour-fame :)
<wolfspraul>
I think it's going great, really
<wolfspraul>
my #1 concern is to find money for the various under-funded supporters
<wpwrak>
yes, i think technically, it's moving excellently
<wolfspraul>
and let me defend Jon's work here. Jon is just unbelievable in his commitment.
<wolfspraul>
seriously
<wolfspraul>
show him some love
<wpwrak>
yes, finances are very bad
<wolfspraul>
right now he is traveling again, his m1 in tow, demoing the m1 to *everyone* he runs into
<wpwrak>
and PR is a disaster :)
<wolfspraul>
I am cc'ed or bcc'ed on a number of mails, the reactions are often painful, but he keeps going
<wolfspraul>
not really, I really don't think so
<wpwrak>
(jon) hehe :)
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist is quite well known
<wolfspraul>
people know it
<wolfspraul>
you hear this everywhere
<wolfspraul>
but...
<wolfspraul>
people think it's shit
<wolfspraul>
(short story)
<wolfspraul>
they laugh at it
<wpwrak>
(PR) i mean more in the sense of placing it properly
<wolfspraul>
ridicule the specs
<wolfspraul>
500 usd screen-saver
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wpwrak>
yeah, that's part of it :)
<wolfspraul>
and btw
<wolfspraul>
talking about that one
<wpwrak>
the screen-safer is self-inflicted
<wolfspraul>
99 usd screen-saver wouldn't really be any better
<wpwrak>
that's what you get for marketing it as .. well, a screen-safer ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no I think that is all fine, but this endless "more pr" is a bit annoying
<wolfspraul>
so unimaginative
<wolfspraul>
PR FOR WHAT?
<wolfspraul>
yes your input is right
<wolfspraul>
but it's all work, even the understanding and positioning of a product is work
<wolfspraul>
the korg kaossilator pro, seems a wonderful product, sells for 460 USD retail
<wolfspraul>
what's the bom?
<wolfspraul>
50 USD? my guess would be 50-100, at most
<wolfspraul>
it's a strong brand, strong channel, loyal customer base, fun product, sustainable pricing
<wolfspraul>
that's my goal for m1
<wolfspraul>
what is the milkymist story?
<wolfspraul>
I keep thinking about it
<wpwrak>
(kaossilator) innovative concept, too. musical instrument for non-musicians :) real musicians tend to joke about it as a toy. sounds familiar ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the momentum it has now comes from the free software/culture side
<wpwrak>
i think M1 as a instrument for the VJ sounds pretty promising
<wolfspraul>
that's how I found it, you, Jon, kpaul, lars, etc.
<wpwrak>
get away from its milkdrop history. it's no longer a TV that you watch for the pretty pictures. it's something you control.
<wolfspraul>
milkdrop connection may be good or bad, correct
<wolfspraul>
I don't know
<wolfspraul>
see that's how subtle this all is
<wolfspraul>
you can make a story "milkdrop hardware accelerator" launched
<wolfspraul>
or maybe not
<wpwrak>
i'm not saying we should deny the milkdrop history. milkdrop is probably a good ancestor. but M1 goes beyond that.
<wolfspraul>
and you cannot change it every day, you have to repeat your story for a while. but then the clock is mercilessly clicking.
<wolfspraul>
remember how Jon thought for a while maybe it can be a set-top box?
<wolfspraul>
why not?
<wolfspraul>
I mean his thinking
<wolfspraul>
everybody thinks about the box, asks questions. slowly understands what is easy and what is hard.
<wolfspraul>
I don't know milkdrop nearly enough to have any opinion on whether it's worth to tell a story around that.
<wpwrak>
i must admit that i'm a bit afraid of jon's marketing ideas ;-)
<wolfspraul>
he tries to understand the product
<wolfspraul>
which other way there is than to a) buy one and play with it b) ask questions
<wolfspraul>
and he is doing both, whole-heartedly
<wpwrak>
the settop box is a good example: his question was "given a M1, what would i do with it ?". very few people just have M1s lying around ...
<wolfspraul>
I keep wondering how to pitch it to heise
<wolfspraul>
for heise, would 'video computer' work better than 'video synthesizer'?
<wpwrak>
oh, understanding the product is great. but that should perhaps happen a bit more discreetly :)
<wolfspraul>
you may dismiss this as some tiny detail, but the headline matters dramatically, in terms of conversion rates, whether people start looking up and reading
<wpwrak>
or at least with the proper disclaimer, to avoid confusion
<wolfspraul>
over the years I've read a few articles on movie marketing
<wpwrak>
"video computer" sounds very 1970 game consoles ;-)
<wolfspraul>
very interesting I think
<wolfspraul>
movies are interesting beasts
<wolfspraul>
they compete with thousands of great movies that have already been made
<wpwrak>
"it's a video computer. not just the 7 segment LEDs the others have !"
<wolfspraul>
probably everybody could fill their entire life watching old movies and never seeing one that is worse than any of the new ones that may still come
<wolfspraul>
but how come the movie industry manages to sell one new one after another?
<wpwrak>
oh, i totally love old movies :)
<wolfspraul>
and they do take risks (even though people say not enough) in plunking down tens of millions or even hundreds of millions into a new one
<wolfspraul>
yet the marketing of that one hangs on a tiny string
<wpwrak>
because ... concepts change slightly
<wpwrak>
and sometimes new concepts appear
<wolfspraul>
so there is *A LOT* of dancing around how to market it
<wolfspraul>
finding the perfect date
<wolfspraul>
finding the right way to talk about it
<wolfspraul>
and still there are no guarantees
<wolfspraul>
sometimes a movie that everybody discards as hopeless strikes gold
<wolfspraul>
and sometimes one where you seemingly have it all in the perfect soup totally tanks
<wpwrak>
and movies tend to have short commercial lives. often, it's hit or miss
<wolfspraul>
oh yeah
<wolfspraul>
it's nuts
<wpwrak>
one very few miss first and are rediscovered later
<wolfspraul>
and sometimes they loose confidence, then the finished movie is shelfed for months until someone thinks they foudn the magic way how and where and when to market it
<wpwrak>
yeah, that too :)
<wolfspraul>
interesting business
<wolfspraul>
and they are not afraid to compete against their own history, no matter how great movies are there already
<wolfspraul>
you need to find a convincing argument to try the new one still :-)
<wpwrak>
anyway, i think we should focus on M1 as a video synthesizer. that's where it feels strongest. so one question would be what live video effect tools there are for VJs.
<wolfspraul>
agree
<wpwrak>
and what else they use, e.g., to pre-produce loops and such. and then see how we could incorporate such functionality.
<wolfspraul>
tool for vjs, and people interested in vjing
<wolfspraul>
yes absolutely
<wolfspraul>
but we need to turn our 'add feature' machine on again
<wpwrak>
yes, the feature set is too small
<wolfspraul>
it slowed down in recent months, making people feel it's dead
<wpwrak>
we now have a great skeleton. time to add meat :)
<wpwrak>
yes, sebastien as the driving force has largely vanished. i hope that can be reversed.
<wolfspraul>
I think many people are open-minded to discarding their old habits and trying new things.
<wpwrak>
without him, the project will die
<wolfspraul>
not everybody, but enough. especially if you kick them into that mode.
<wolfspraul>
"hey, time to try something new!"
<wpwrak>
sure. there are always a few who are looking to be avantgarde
<wolfspraul>
not just a few. I think you can motivate people to throw away their daily self-defense in dismissing the new/unknown/scary and making the jump into the cold water.
<wpwrak>
yeah if you can explain it well, why not. of course, you must still scratch an itch.
<wpwrak>
heh, an identifier in RTEMS: _Message_queue_Translate_core_message_queue_return_code
<wpwrak>
sometimes, that code feels like a parody
<wolfspraul>
how hard is it to address the green-bias problem?
<wolfspraul>
in your videos, when the blue and red comes out it looks so much better
<wolfspraul>
alas, it comes out too little
<wolfspraul>
oh, what do you think about my faderfox reply?
<wpwrak>
dunno. it's a change to the graphics-FPU (probably easy) but also an increase of memory bandwidth. not sure how bad the latter is.
<wolfspraul>
did you understand what he meant with this micromodule drawing?
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien pumped up the mem bandwidth somewhat when he tried to reach 1024x768
<wpwrak>
i think he wants to know what control exactly we want
<wolfspraul>
maybe a little is left to spend for more bpp? I don't know
<wpwrak>
yes, it may be enough. but i don't know for sure.
<wolfspraul>
any other feedback to the mail?
<wpwrak>
(faderfox) i was waiting to see if a reply would pop up somewhere before replying myself
<wpwrak>
oh, plenty :)
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
he may need some time to think as well
<wolfspraul>
I like his business
<wolfspraul>
or what I imagine of his business right now
<wolfspraul>
he is doing this since 2004
<wpwrak>
ah, relatively new
<wolfspraul>
3 generations (now), some different varients
<wolfspraul>
it seems he manufactures it all in Germany, or directs it from there
<wolfspraul>
pretty cool. and his prices are not bad.
<wolfspraul>
at some point I hope he shares his supply chain with us :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, i wonder how he manages that. his prices seem very competetive.
<wolfspraul>
nah, I think it's possible
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese way of doing things is sick
<wolfspraul>
if a product can be made unmodified for a number of years, you may always be better off outside of China
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese are unbeatable when it comes to making so many changes so fast and then still being able to navigate through the chaos *without* understanding anything
<wolfspraul>
but when you slow down the iterations, and introduce some understanding, then things quickly get very expensive in China
<wolfspraul>
in Germany or other countries the *understanding* is always built-in
<wolfspraul>
so anyway, I'm interested in his supply chain at some point
<wpwrak>
yes. he seems to know a few things we haven't figured out yet :-)
<wolfspraul>
nah, I have a pretty good idea what's going on
<wolfspraul>
just interested in confirming, going through the process and supply chain and cost a little
<wolfspraul>
where he makes the pcb, where he makes the smt/dip, testing, etc.
<wolfspraul>
mechanical components probably from Japan/Korea/Taiwan
<wolfspraul>
only the very brave use Chinese mechanical parts :-)
<wolfspraul>
he mentions the joysticks as trouble-makers because of gluing
<wolfspraul>
anyway I will not ask any of this now, that's not my business. but in the long run if we work together you bet I'm curious :-)
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese really only have 1 skill that is all their magic, and they are the best at
<wolfspraul>
and that is to work on something without understanding it
<wolfspraul>
it makes them extremely fast and cheap
<wolfspraul>
you wouldn't want to know how scary it is that this 'skill' also translates into medicine, hospitals, etc.
<wpwrak>
mechanical parts ... from ALPS ... that would be jaoan, right
<wpwrak>
jaPan
<wolfspraul>
need to check
<wolfspraul>
but that wouldn't surprise me
<wolfspraul>
he mentions keys, faders, encoders, joysticks
<wolfspraul>
the turnable things on the top, are those the encoders or faders?
<wpwrak>
tact switches, to be precise
<wolfspraul>
ok
<wpwrak>
rotary encoders (endless)
<wolfspraul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
and the ones you can slide up and down are the faders?
<wolfspraul>
then he mentions LED feedback back to the controller, which makes a lot of sense to me (initially)
<wolfspraul>
so there is only 1 usb cable going from the lv3 to the m1, and that's for power supply, midi messages into m1, and midi messages out (for example for led feedback)
<wolfspraul>
right?
<wpwrak>
(faders) yes
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
I count 30 leds there
<wolfspraul>
4+8+8+8+2
<wolfspraul>
what would we map all this to?
<wpwrak>
could be "control is active" feedback
<wpwrak>
or "control has been actuated", etc.
<wolfspraul>
4 endless rotary encoders on top, then 3 switches, then another 8, 8 faders, 2 rows of 8 switches, another 2 switches, and finally 2 joysticks and another encoder
<wolfspraul>
phew
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
like in my message loss prevention video: the button lights up when pressed
<wpwrak>
not sure if i could also remote-control the button
<wpwrak>
well, the button led
<wolfspraul>
the best is probably that whatever you move or touch or press, something changes in the visual
<wolfspraul>
easier said than done
<wpwrak>
some of the encoders can also be pushed to act as a switch :-)
<wolfspraul>
and then it needs to make sense so you can slowly grow into the system and control it to your liking
<wpwrak>
i think we need a few layers to handle all this
<wolfspraul>
as I wrote in my mail, I think it's far too early to design a dedicated m1 controller
<wpwrak>
step one: have the "core" patch. then add controls where useful. the definition of controls could be part of the patch
<wpwrak>
yes, i agree
<wolfspraul>
we simply know nothing, or pretty much nothing, about what controls we actually want, or which ones would make 'perfect' sense for m1
<wpwrak>
the next layer would then map patch controls to real device inputs
<wolfspraul>
also we shouldn't go out and work on the perfect system for a year, but instead take the controller and make it better little by little, enjoying what we do while we're on the way
<wpwrak>
plus you may have some controller library to provide meta-data. e.g., a rotary encoder may need special treatment if used for a non-cyclic input. so you'd have to declare this when configuring the controls for your patch.
<wolfspraul>
(and for this particular one we run into the usb-midi problem quite early :-))
<wpwrak>
i think what we need first is practical experience
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and then gradually make it more meaningful
<wpwrak>
that's why i asked about customer follow-up :)
<wolfspraul>
the openess should, in theory, help on that path
<wolfspraul>
oh I know
<wolfspraul>
but I think I answered it many times now
<wolfspraul>
I am super interested in customer feedback
<wolfspraul>
and we actually get a lot
<wolfspraul>
but most is dismissed/ignored
<wolfspraul>
maybe we need a whatwewantfrommilkymist.org petition with 10,000 signatures?
<wpwrak>
maybe. perhaps it's also better to establish a dialog.
<wolfspraul>
I have no problem with customer feedback, I feel quite solid on it now
<wolfspraul>
Jon even more so
<wpwrak>
naw .. one problem is that the recipients are overloaded
<wolfspraul>
Jon is at this mozilla festival now, and pushing m1 hard for use with some full-time bbc djs
<wolfspraul>
yes I know [overload]
<wpwrak>
if we can have a dialog, one could just ask for feedback on a specific topic when one is about to work on that
<wolfspraul>
I try to send people to this channel
<wolfspraul>
give everyone the freenode webchat url
<wpwrak>
this reduces these evilly expensive context switches :)
<wolfspraul>
but few make it
<wolfspraul>
nocarrier did
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure if a 24/7 IRC channel is very appealing to most people
<wpwrak>
i think a forum may work much better
<wpwrak>
IRC is good if you're dead serious and willing to spend a lot of time
<wpwrak>
or need a high-intensity dialog. e.g., for debugging a problem
<wolfspraul>
yes maybe
<wolfspraul>
one sec, back to the controller
<wolfspraul>
are there other types of controls (mechanically) that could make sense?
<wpwrak>
but our mode of operation, basically hanging out non-stop and converging by sheer self-organization isn't what the occasional visitor can use
<wolfspraul>
or those 4 on lv3 is all that does?
<wpwrak>
yes. pads.
<wpwrak>
there are more:
<wpwrak>
- potentiometers (similar to encoders, but with stops. may also have a better resolution)
<wpwrak>
- pressure/velocity-sensitive buttons
<wpwrak>
- jog wheels
<wpwrak>
that's about all i encountered so far
<wpwrak>
also, somethings come in different styles. e.g., encoders/pots can have a push-to-switch function
<wpwrak>
joysticks can be self-centering or stay-where-you-left-them
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
ok good!
<wpwrak>
encoders can have a LED ring. pads can have a LED matrix too.
<wpwrak>
faders can be motorized to travel to a host-commanded default position
<wpwrak>
there are also drum pads. not quite sure how they work. they're relatively large
<wolfspraul>
if we work with faderfox, he can also give us some ideas since he works with modul8 in parallel
<wolfspraul>
some knowledge sharing :-)
<wpwrak>
what i have in my possession this far are: buttons, potentiometes (many cheap ones and one that's good), non-motorized faders (again many cheap and one good), and one X/Y pad
<wpwrak>
i think pressure-sensitive buttons could be interesting too. e.g., for adding images, in case you want to "inject" it and then let the normal effect processing mess with it
<wpwrak>
oh, i think he'll have lots of fun playing with the demo M1 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
what control interfaces exist? midi and usb-midi is a given. dmx too? I know very little about dmx...
<wolfspraul>
does osc overlap with midi in any way?
<wolfspraul>
so 3? midi, dmx, osc?
<wpwrak>
i think OSC aims to be a better MIDI, DMX, etc.
<wolfspraul>
ah, here
<wpwrak>
also, we have the IR remote :)
<wolfspraul>
yes but that seems to be a super low-innovation scene
<wpwrak>
yet it's the only one that's been actively promoted so far :)
<wolfspraul>
don't blame me for learning
<wolfspraul>
that's already happening too much here anyway
<wolfspraul>
what I've learnt from remote controls (so far) is that all the manufacturers have maneuvered themselves into a corner where they cannot innovate anymore
<wpwrak>
ah, how did they do that ?
<wolfspraul>
it's this cheapo 1-2 USD thing some consumer electronics companies throw into their retail boxes as an afterthought
<wolfspraul>
no attention for detail, no willingness to invest (backlighting, nice surfaces and materials, well designed, etc)
<wolfspraul>
I'd say remote controls are dead
<wolfspraul>
unless we go all the way out and design and manufacture our own
<wolfspraul>
the dmx/midi controller companies seem to have a little more long-term horizon, so both them and their customers can innovate
<wpwrak>
there are aftermarket remotes. some of them are quite fanciful
<wolfspraul>
url?
<wolfspraul>
I can just tell you what I've learnt so far :-)
<wpwrak>
it seems china has already eaten the low-cost segment of DMX
<wolfspraul>
that's the problem when both buyers and manufacturers of a certain category device come to the conclusion that no more innovation is needed
<wolfspraul>
then they will both race to the bottom price-wise, and their wish shall be fulfilled
<wolfspraul>
nothing much you can do about it, since it's the consensus in that category
<wolfspraul>
if you believe we should investigate more in IR, I will
<wpwrak>
yeah. and hard to get out of this, too, since people's price expectations will eventually settle for "almost nothing"
<wolfspraul>
yes, it's a consensus
<wpwrak>
naw, i don't think IR is very interesting
<wpwrak>
if you want to make remotes, use at least wpan :)
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
I can just say what I learnt so far, and I keep learning
<wolfspraul>
I think we should keep the ir interface and remote we source now, just in case
<wolfspraul>
but not make it a focus of our marketing or development
<wolfspraul>
but I also wouldn't remove it (thought about that for a solid 30 minutes this morning actually)
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to write off IR as a technology, I think that's unwise given the largely open future of Milkymist (now that it's in especially).
<wolfspraul>
but the manufacturers in that area I foudn so far are screwed
<wolfspraul>
they just keep the old machines running, zero willingness to invest
<wpwrak>
well, IR can be a cheap way to get input, in case you need it
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and we have it now
<wpwrak>
most of the R&D cost is already sunk :)
<wolfspraul>
so I'd keep it the way it is, and maybe one day someone comes and innovates. but not me :-)
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
it starts with our SoC being hard-coded to more or less only work with the remote we include (timing issues)
<wpwrak>
yes, that's why i say "most of" :)
<wolfspraul>
and goes on to the printing of the remote not fitting m1 at all, and the buttons not performing many functions at all either
<wolfspraul>
if I find a manufacturer like faderfox, or many of the bigger controller guys, who is active in IR, I may reconsider
<wolfspraul>
but so far I haven't
<wolfspraul>
the IR guys I found are operating with enough excess intellectual capacity that I would struggle instructing them how to mow my lawn
<wolfspraul>
in other words: zero
<wolfspraul>
I cannot even explain *anything* to them. they are just cranking out the old stuff at penny prices, and go home.
<wolfspraul>
night and day difference to that faderfox guy, for example :-)
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wolfspraul>
ok, even those 2 logitech remotes don't convince me
<wolfspraul>
that's just the lots of buttons universal remote
<wolfspraul>
that business doesn't work, afaik (old info from Steve)
<wolfspraul>
and they sell for 30 and 70 USD
<wolfspraul>
no way a company like logitech can innovate on that
<wolfspraul>
ZERO chance
<wolfspraul>
no, like I said. I am impressed by what I see in the MIDI/DMX/OSC scene
<wpwrak>
keep on scrolling. there are bigger ones.
<wolfspraul>
there are some real businesses and real customers there. this stuff will move forward, they have the personnel and finances to move forward.
<wolfspraul>
he, ok
<wolfspraul>
it goes to 350 USD
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
I wish I could compare the volume of a 300 USD remote and a 400 USD kaossilator
<wpwrak>
logitech may win that comparison :)
<wolfspraul>
I have no idea which sells better
<wolfspraul>
nah, not sure
<wolfspraul>
back to the control interfaces
<wolfspraul>
which one do you like?
<wolfspraul>
does dmx overlap with midi in any way?
<wpwrak>
i can imagine the logitech monster in a lot of homes, right in the middle of vast home theater temple to consumerism :)
<wpwrak>
yes, dmx and midi overlap
<wpwrak>
which ones i like ... hard to say yet. i only know four types so far. don't know joysticks, pressure-sentitive buttons, and rotary encoders
<wpwrak>
(among the more common ones i don't know)
<wpwrak>
joysticks are what sebastien recommends. but i don't know if he has actually tried one yet.
<wolfspraul>
wait you talk about the mechanical parts now, right?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
ah, you mean protocols
<wolfspraul>
we have the mechanical side, and the message format/protocol side
<wolfspraul>
the 4 you know are: switch, fader, ?
<wpwrak>
midi is okay-ish. widely available. osc may be technically superior, but seems a niche. dmx doesn't offer a big choices of controls. mainly faders, on/off, and X/Y
<wolfspraul>
x/y ? you mean like a pad where you can position a cursor?
<wpwrak>
tact switch, fader/slider, potentiometer, X/Y pad
<wpwrak>
DMX usually seems to have joysticks
<wolfspraul>
what's the difference between potentiometer and rotary encoder?
<wolfspraul>
to motor-control the light?
<wpwrak>
one difference is that rotary encoders have no stops
<wolfspraul>
you can also control color?
<wolfspraul>
on the patch side, most of the controls would map to a number/variable, right?
<wpwrak>
(color/motor) you're free to do whatever you fancy with those numbers :)
<wolfspraul>
well yes, but I mean in terms of DMX lights you can actually buy already
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to manufacture everything back to the wheel myself...
<wpwrak>
right now, all the MIDI controls produce, in the patch, a number from 0.0 to 1.0
<wpwrak>
the DMX lights would use X/Y for motor. don't know how color channels really are handled. lights also have apertures they can change. somehow, DMX must address these, too
<wolfspraul>
wikipedia suggests that osc is a midi superset
<wpwrak>
i just examined a relative simple DMX controller, similar to the one sebastien has. then i realize that about half of the controls were used up for hard-wired functions i had no use for :)
<wolfspraul>
which controllers do we know so far?
<wolfspraul>
or companies
<wolfspraul>
korg
<wolfspraul>
akai
<wolfspraul>
faderfox
<wpwrak>
behringer
<wpwrak>
m-audio
<wpwrak>
frontierdesign (even more exotic than faderfox :)
<wpwrak>
icon
<wpwrak>
novation
<wpwrak>
and then there's a host of DMX companies. very little overlap
<wpwrak>
all these are devices i examined a bit as candidates. most of them should be okay. not entirely sure about the icon things, because they seem to rely heavily on host-based configuration. but maybe they're just plain dumb MIDI units with factory defaults, much like the nanoKONTROL2 i have (which could also be configured if i had windows/mac etc.)
<wpwrak>
i didn't write down most of the DMX controllers i ran into. here are two examples, first an expensive one, then the ACME competition:
<wpwrak>
ACME = Awsome China Makes Everything. this product family (there's a total of three variants, faders, wheels, or joystick) exists under at least three different brand names.
<wpwrak>
DMX units tend to be bulkier than MIDI, since they're for fixed installations. often even 19" racks.
<wpwrak>
do you also want the links to the corresponding manuals ? :)
<wpwrak>
the big name companies (yamaha, roland, etc.) may also have MIDI controllers. there's one "premium" product that others often refer to: http://www.mackie.com/products/mcupro/index.html
<aw_>
wolfspraul, the second rc2-2-rc3 m1 works well after assembly. I planed to let it remained rendering over this weekend.
<wolfspraul>
phew, ok
<wolfspraul>
excellent links
<wolfspraul>
first dump into wiki :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think we should focus on small companies that are dedicated around controllers, yet have a good enough standing and customer base for real innovation
<wolfspraul>
much like faderfox :-) (from what I know so far)
<wpwrak>
for direct cooperation, yes
<wpwrak>
for product recommendations, the opposite :)
<wolfspraul>
to increase the value of m1, what do we need to do?
<wolfspraul>
we need to document which ones are tested, which ones are untested
<wolfspraul>
for the tested ones, we need to document how well they actually work with m1
<wpwrak>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and then we can have another perspective which is "if I want to buy a controller just for m1, which one would you recommend"
<wpwrak>
yes, that sounds good
<wolfspraul>
homework galore
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
speaking of which ... quarterly news ?
<wolfspraul>
bah yes
<wolfspraul>
currently working on my time-tripling feature
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I will do it
<wolfspraul>
anxious actually
<wolfspraul>
tons of good stuff
<wolfspraul>
so you have a kaossilator pro, right?
<wolfspraul>
and also the older kaossilator, but that won't work with m1?
<wolfspraul>
wow the kaossilator pro seems big and heavy
<wpwrak>
yeah. inertia is good :)
<wpwrak>
in excahnge, the nanoKONTROL2 is a flimsy thing
<wolfspraul>
you don't like the feel of it?
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering how tablets and touch-phones will fit into this over time
<wolfspraul>
surely there is controller software for the ipad already, I would think
<wpwrak>
the nK2 doesn't feel very confidence-inspiring. you notice the difference to the KP
<wolfspraul>
a cheap android wifi touchphone can be bought for ca. 30 usd
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
OSC ? :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah just thinking
<wolfspraul>
probably our best strategy is to be flexible and just go with what comes along and is a real opportunity
<wolfspraul>
cheap, works easily, available now
<wolfspraul>
old or new, whatever. mechanical or touch-phone/pad
<wpwrak>
i think it's good to have a choice of such ubiquitous devices, yes
<wolfspraul>
but I also think we should go with brand that we can expect to be around for a number of years, whether small or large
<roh>
wolfspraul: touch was there already a long time... doesnt give the feedback of a mechanical slider. there are only a few touch-devices in that field that life long.. special input foo like the touchpad on the kaossilator.
<wpwrak>
so people can quickly build a first evironment for experimentation
<wolfspraul>
otherwise we spend a lot of time chasing disappearing one-off shows
<wpwrak>
those who are serious can later explore into more professional solutions
<wolfspraul>
roh: sure, I want to stay out of that battle and have no opinion. enough on my plate.
<roh>
but as a knob and fader replacement touch will not gain professional users anymore than it has already
<wolfspraul>
that's why I say strategy is to be flexible, take what comes, document well, look for a little brand stability to not waste time
<wolfspraul>
roh: I wait to see what those professionals say with their wallet, not with their mouths :-)
<wpwrak>
roh: i see touch as an attractive choice for x/y. particularly if you make a lot of rapid inputs.
<roh>
wolfspraul: in high-end audio (studio eqipment in the hundredthousands) there were experiements with fullsize plasmas etc.. didnt get real succes.s. was very good built.. but nobody wanted a mixer where you couldnt feel the pots and knobs. simply failed in the haptics
<wolfspraul>
understood
<wolfspraul>
but like I said we can stay out of that
<wolfspraul>
we just compare, pick, document, recommend, use
<wpwrak>
ah, and i think a tablet would make a nice companion for a more traditional electromechanical controller
<roh>
wolfspraul: whats successfull is special mechanical hw which shares functions (endless-pots.. motorfaders, xy-fields like on the kaossilator. but not full-'virtual' input elements
<wpwrak>
the tablet could be used for things like image/patch selection
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: have you seen any tablet maker that tries to market into such a niche?
<wolfspraul>
I'm just wondering - Apple sells to 'everybody'
<wolfspraul>
ipad for everything
<wolfspraul>
ok, easy to understand
<wolfspraul>
the flood of cheapo Android tablets are mostly a total sales failure
<wolfspraul>
predictably
<wolfspraul>
because they suck, on all of thousands of loose ends
<wpwrak>
well, those logitech remotes go a bit in this direction. but regular tablet makers, no
<wolfspraul>
but why aren't some of those cheapo makers zooming in on smaller markets? or are they already?
<wolfspraul>
instead they try to follow Apple, also in marketing, and die
<wpwrak>
you mean cheap droids vs. expensive droids ?
<wpwrak>
yeah, sure
<wolfspraul>
it's a good discussion with liu qiang to have next wed
<wpwrak>
that seems to be just the way a lot of managers tick
<wolfspraul>
how many android tablets his customers are actually selling
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm sure the controller companies must have thought about this already as well
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
a tablet alone may not work, for the reasons roh mentioned
<wpwrak>
but M1+tablet+LV3, for example, could be pretty cool
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that's what I mean
<wolfspraul>
look from the perspective of a cheapo Android tablet maker
<wpwrak>
the tablet would be the M1's control screen. sort of "console"
<wolfspraul>
what is his biggest challenge? I think it's marketing
<wpwrak>
seems that the droid makers don't network
<wolfspraul>
no money left for that
<wolfspraul>
you don't realize how quickly salaries add up
<wpwrak>
also, the cheap ones need huge volumes. so networking with something as low volume as instruments it probably right off the table
<wolfspraul>
imagine 2 people making 100k USD / year
<wolfspraul>
just two, ok
<wolfspraul>
that's 200,000 USD / year
<wolfspraul>
many small guys may be lucky to sell 5000 units
<wolfspraul>
if you put those 2 guys on marketing that product, that's 40 USD / product!!!
<wolfspraul>
more than the entire bom
<wolfspraul>
no way
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
those companies cannot even begin to process that this means etc.
<wolfspraul>
how to recoup this money
<wolfspraul>
all completely clueless
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure they really work with such low volumes
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
<wolfspraul>
there's a frenzy of companies
<wolfspraul>
all running
<wpwrak>
i see a lot of "generic" designs coming from china. with lots of rebranding.
<wolfspraul>
you have no idea how many products never sell more than 10k
<wolfspraul>
even among Taiwanese oem/odm
<wpwrak>
maybe they're just copying from each other. zero R&D.
<wolfspraul>
that's the price they pay for flying the airplane blindly
<wolfspraul>
sure, zero
<wolfspraul>
and zero marketing
<wolfspraul>
no money
<wolfspraul>
just do the math
<wolfspraul>
it's not there
<wpwrak>
brave new world :)
<wolfspraul>
the typical taiwanese oem/odm will hardly know why a few of his dozens of products suddenly sell 'well', i.e. 50k and more
<wolfspraul>
and chinese - not at all
<wolfspraul>
the problem is, I can have whatever story I want, I doubt I can generate much excitement
<wolfspraul>
they can only think of their products as "the same" as the ipad
<wolfspraul>
no matter how far from that they actually are
<wolfspraul>
I'll ask liu qiang
<wolfspraul>
sales numbers of Ingenic-based tablets
<wolfspraul>
if it's low, maybe there is someone interested somewhere (I doubt it though)
<wpwrak>
yeah, you probably only could use tablets makers as suppliers. maybe you could strike a deal as with the ben, to have the thing at least semi-open
<wolfspraul>
you can only go so far with suppliers that have lots of muscles but no brain
<wpwrak>
ingenic don't have what you need. and the too-low tablet makers are probably dying already :)
<wolfspraul>
then I rather ask for cash, and we develop it ourselves out of the NanoNote
<wpwrak>
yup :)
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
Ingenic is the driving force here
<wpwrak>
ah, i see
<wolfspraul>
the manufacturers are jsut the 'runners', if you will :-)
<wolfspraul>
if you can imagine...
<wpwrak>
well, if they "own" the tablet makers, then you can perhaps suggest a ben-like deal
<wpwrak>
pick one with the lowest amount of non-free technology (e.g., no telephony)
<wolfspraul>
I need to understand the product, I don't want to join in this senseless running around
<wolfspraul>
I start by asking for sales numbers
<wpwrak>
maybe propose to look into this approach, but make it clear you need more money to develop your side of the bargain
<wolfspraul>
if they are low, maybe the idea of marketing a tablet as (one type of) controller could make sense
<wolfspraul>
and it would allow us to let someone else finance NanoNote development :-)
<wpwrak>
of course, just a controller for M1 probably wouldn't be very exciting
<wolfspraul>
no it would not [just controller]
<wolfspraul>
but if a lot of software comes into play, maybe the nanonote can be used as a starting point
<wolfspraul>
I shall investigate
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wpwrak>
one problem with "reassigning" nanonote development on a tablet is the form factor. but of course, you could make something quasi-ya-ish, just for the purpose of having a controller
<wpwrak>
others may be interested in that, too
<wolfspraul>
I'm just looking for a way to funnel funding my way
<wolfspraul>
so much money is wasted in stupid Apple chasing that all fails
<wolfspraul>
it's scary
<wpwrak>
funding is always good :)
<wolfspraul>
but maybe inevitable, maybe it's the price to be paid for the entire system, and cannot be optimized
<wpwrak>
it's the price of being unable to innovate
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and they will keep sinking the next millions into the same mission impossible
<wolfspraul>
like robots
<wpwrak>
maybe you start with people who can't do it. but if you don't break out of it once you would have the right people, you may end up with a culture that makes lack of innovation a virtue
<wpwrak>
each time i read about massive R&D layoffs in big corporations, that comes to mind. R&D is a bad word nowadays.
<wolfspraul>
if you find an existing midi/dmx/osc controller maker that is offering some kind of tablet, let me know
<wolfspraul>
I will google a bit too
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately I hardly know sales numbers in this entire industry
<wpwrak>
aw_: you can do pretty much anything you want with the NOR chip (using peek and poke) :) what exactly did you have in mind ?
<aw_>
wpwrak, yup...i'm thinking if i can use them to make sure each block sampling w&r to simply check image not every time to spend time to wait by '--read-flash' parameter.
<aw_>
bad that i'm still foolish in script. ;-0
<wpwrak>
hmm, not sure what you mean. you want to read one word from each block ?
<aw_>
yes....just random one word in each block.
<wpwrak>
hmm, what kind of problem would this detect ?
<aw_>
i should say: write and read one word from each block after address A0000 (i.e. if I checked standby image is correct, then I don't want to readback whole sectional image to compare.)
<aw_>
or say just each relevant partition image. With this way, can i simply use this tool to 'quickly' check if part of NOR are failed? Is it make sense or useless for productive tool?
<wpwrak>
ah, so you want to test if you can access the NOR chip at all
<aw_>
exactly but part of each block or depends on partitions.
<wpwrak>
what you could do is erase all blocks, write an address-dependent pattern, check that pattern, and then proceed with normal flashing
<wpwrak>
and you'd first do all the writes, then all the reads, to catch things like unconnected address lines
<aw_>
yes. like write pattern in each block then 'peak' back to confirm
<wpwrak>
of course, you can probably find all this also with the regular flashing and CRC check :)
<aw_>
but not all address
<aw_>
alright...seems i have to spend some times to study poke and peak.
<aw_>
mm..'upset' has more syntax i can learn. It's good hint.
<aw_>
wpwrak, tks.
<aw_>
btw, how did you learn script before? Have any dedicated scripts paradise area you can point? But I think your script is professional enough. ;-)
<wpwrak>
hmm, shell scripts ? that was pretty much learning by doing. i don't think i ever even read a book about shell programming.
<wolfspraul>
maybe there are some nice and short bash tutorials?
<aw_>
seems good way is to follow existing scripts all in qi server. ;-)
<wolfspraul>
aw_: yes, following high quality examples is a very good way
<aw_>
oh...yes...this is what i wanted. tks so much. ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: be careful with what you call high quality, though. shell scripts are also often used for ugly convenience hacks. e.g., i wouldn't trust half of my own scripts as a reference :)
<aw_>
btw.tks both of you about links. Have you a nice weekend.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: I'm curious - you mention you considered the LX9 board. what were your pros and cons? what was the goal?
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: i consideredlike the 99$ board alternative in price no more i guess
<kristianpaul>
pros price
<wolfspraul>
what was the goal? price compared to what other price?
<kristianpaul>
for me no more than a cheap alternative for people who want a spartan-6 forimplementing milkymist
<kristianpaul>
goal lerning platform
<wolfspraul>
how complete is it?
<wolfspraul>
I don't mean in terms of peripherals, but as a learning platform
<wolfspraul>
can it work?
<wolfspraul>
can a university/class buy the lx9 and then use Milkymist on it?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
like the other avnet spartan3 49iisd board
<kristianpaul>
iisd/usd
<wolfspraul>
probably needs a committed teacher/professor to pull it off and dig out the nasty details
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
i havent check about programing tought..
<wolfspraul>
sure, I got it
<kristianpaul>
and no plan to buy the LX9, but is cheap and have a spartan6 and ethernet at least,not bad
<wolfspraul>
sure, we keep an eye on it
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't be motivated to get one, but if someone is we should understand and look for ways to collaborate. since as you say it's technically close, at some level.
<kristianpaul>
out of battery charge
<lekernel>
there's no SDRAM on it, is there?
<wolfspraul>
yes could be, good point
<lekernel>
\o/ nightlybuild
<nightlybuild>
lekernel: :)
<Fallenou>
23:58 < wolfspraul> Fallenou: why do you think a 99 USD product would be cool? < $ 499 is more than what I spend on "really nice devices to hack on" (I'm not a VJ), $ 99 is totally OK
<Fallenou>
so I would be really happy to buy a $ 99 Minimist, find some time to hack on it, share my experience, etc etc