<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: ok I read the new calculation thanks to Joerg... but - what does it mean?
<wolfspraul>
the proposed usb power switch would help?
<wolfspraul>
the 4.0v reset ic?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i'd go for both :)
<wpwrak>
the new calculations only show the problem more clearly from the theoretical side. we already know independently (from the experiments) that the drop is too low.
<wolfspraul>
and with those 2 changes, what does it look like?
<wolfspraul>
adam is going for x-ray and reworks on the remaining 14 boards this week and next week if needed
<wolfspraul>
in parallel he will talk to the layout people in case they have any advice about dvi-i routing, also this week or next I think
<wolfspraul>
then we need to source a bunch of things for the design verification, including the new reset ic and usb power switch
<wolfspraul>
but for that we need a final proposal :-)
<wolfspraul>
just braindumping to sync everybody
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: what about this clock signal you keep talking about?
<wolfspraul>
since we cannot get enough energy behind a big rethinking of the expansion header, maybe we just run a wire to a new test point in rc4? what exactly do you need?
<wpwrak>
okay, plenty of time :)
<wpwrak>
(what does it look like) you mean the functional prognosis ? or the schematics delta ?
<wpwrak>
anyway, we have a new problem at the moment. full-speed usb mysteriously doesn't work, even though we think it should (after the latest code changes). not sure yet what's amiss. hopefully just software.
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, I am 100% aware :-)
<sh4rm4>
can someone recommend a "power flow" simulator ?
<wolfspraul>
this project is so much fun, I feel every day my mind is just blowing out or something :-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
also how we can tackle this hardware business thing
<wolfspraul>
where is the continuity, where the costs, where the investments
<wolfspraul>
how to get to great products
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
amazing
<wolfspraul>
but if I mentally zoom back a year or two or three, and apply what I know today, I couldn't have gone any other way
<wpwrak>
finding some investment that will allow to bring the system to a point where it's truly customer-ready would be a good first step :)
<wolfspraul>
just nothing can replace actual experience in this field, I think
<wpwrak>
yeah, experience is critical
<wpwrak>
and tools :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm eternal optimist
<wolfspraul>
we will find out what's wrong with full-speed usb
<wpwrak>
of course we will
<wolfspraul>
and worst case, everything up to rc3 is only low-speed :-)
<wolfspraul>
one thought i had last night was whether some of the non-working keyboards might be related to whatever unknown usb issues as well
<wolfspraul>
many months ago when I tried to get m1 into a package that sort-of works out of the box, I started to buy a keyboard
<wolfspraul>
first very innocent, just got one at a corner shop
<wolfspraul>
didn't work
<wolfspraul>
second one
<wolfspraul>
didn't work
<wolfspraul>
third one
<wolfspraul>
didn't work
<wolfspraul>
all for different reasons
<wpwrak>
i have one non-working keyboard left and that's the HHKB. M1 fails in two ways: 1) VBUS collapse (work-around: connect keyboard before booting) 2) keyboard is full-speed, which we don't support yet
<wolfspraul>
I threw away all non-working keyboards later, or maybe gave to xiangfu (forgot)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: what i need seems to be very specific perhaps, a secondary system clock signal, i think dvi-i should be enought to fullfill this need at the end
<wpwrak>
if my other hhkb hadn't disappeared in the openmoko move, i'd also have one that doesn't work because it has an internal USB hub :)
<wolfspraul>
in hindsight we could have been a little more suspicious back then, but it's easy to say that with m1 having so many loose ends everywhere
<wolfspraul>
most apple keyboards have built-in usb hubs
<wolfspraul>
they all don't work
<wpwrak>
hub can't work without a hub driver
<wolfspraul>
don't even know about low vs. full-speed
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wpwrak>
beyond that, there's probably nothing overly magic. well, we couldn't hard-code device addresses in softusb, but that's not difficult to solve
<wolfspraul>
even when we started sourcing those silicone keyboards we include now, we ran into quite a few that wouldn't work :-)
<wpwrak>
for mice, you have a similar set of issues:
<wolfspraul>
there are multiple bugs/issues
<wolfspraul>
some maybe clean-cut like usb-hub
<wolfspraul>
but also others like maybe full-speed working 'sometimes' (see sebastien's comments), or even timing issues like we also found on the remote control side
<wpwrak>
1) possibly inrush current (not an issue in any M1rc3 but mine)
<wolfspraul>
and from the backlog I understand we are already fixing some usb issues, good...
<wpwrak>
2) full-speed. surprisingly, i haven't found any with that yet, but they must exist.
<wolfspraul>
if I source 10 different keyboards in China, I can guarantee you 5 will have different sorts of problems
<wolfspraul>
after I was done, I discarded the whole pile of keyboards I went through, or maybe gave some to xiangfu, adding to his huge todo list
<wpwrak>
3) unexpected report format. there, we get 3a) old mice without wheel, 3b) mice high resolution, 3c) any other unusual report configuration
<wolfspraul>
"will sometimes issue multiple characters, or random characters (for example <l><return> when pressing only <return>), or spontaneous characters without any key being pressed "
<xiangfu>
those keyboards under my desktop.
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: you also have that one with keyboard + mouse together, right?
<xiangfu>
yes.
<wolfspraul>
implemented as 2 endpoints of 1 usb interface...
<wolfspraul>
I think Werner has something similar
<wpwrak>
the report configuration is basically encoded in a little script the mouse sends to the host. softusb ignores that completely and instead uses a hard-coded layout. i added two special cases to that hard-coded layout to support more devices. it's not any less dirty than it was before, but at least more things work ;-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: can you post the lsusb of it?
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: after my testing, I am sure we have several bugs, not just one. But good we are unraveling it now.
<wpwrak>
(multiple chars) that sounds weird indeed
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
we should have investigated
<wolfspraul>
should should
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu may still have it
<wpwrak>
(kbd+mouse) it's one EP per interface but two interfaces per configuration. "interface" and "configuration" are USB terms ;)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu has one as well, let's see whether his setup is similar
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: can you connect that kbd+mouse combo and post the lsusb?
<wpwrak>
i changed softusb to simply parse all the interface descriptors and collect the data. before, it exited after the first interface descriptor, using only whatever it found there
<wolfspraul>
one reason we stopped trying to source a combo was that it wouldn't work anyway, and I was exhausted pointing to too many missing features
<wpwrak>
oh, i forgot some more reasons for trouble:
<wolfspraul>
so what we had there before was too optimistic "all mice should world"
<wolfspraul>
work
<wolfspraul>
well, I think we were subconsciously clear that if we would do serious testing with lots of mice bought in the market, we would find some troublemakers
<wolfspraul>
guess you kill our dreams...
<wolfspraul>
no need to mention the in-rush case because it's temporary and only on your board
<wpwrak>
yup, i have a privileged configuration ;-)
<xiangfu>
we can use the 'meta' key to emulate mouse under keyboard (in case someone don't  know that)
<xiangfu>
sorry. it's the 'Win' key in most keyboard.
<xiangfu>
Win + Enter = left click
<xiangfu>
Win + L/R/U/D = mouse move
<wpwrak>
that "win" key isn't the best possible choice for compact keyboards. there, it may be Fn+something and conflict with Fn+cursor being something else
<wpwrak>
e.g., my Rii RF keyboard does just that
<wpwrak>
but anyway, minor nuisance. particularly now that the pad on that same keyboard works ;-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: can you find the greenasia ic keyboard and check whether it's full-speed or low-speed?
<wolfspraul>
this other one that is sputtering out keys and spontaneously typing may also be interesting, but a little hard for you to debug without monitor equipment
<wpwrak>
i still have one mouse that doesn't move smoothly. it's that old mechanical mouse. under linux, it works fine.
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, I am not at home now. so I will do that later afternoon or tonight. and update the wiki.
<wolfspraul>
ah sure, great
<wolfspraul>
no rush
<wolfspraul>
Rome wasn't built in a day
<wolfspraul>
and neither is Milkymist :-)
<wpwrak>
maybe we should have a page for keyboards and for mice each ?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: that's a saying "Rome wasn't built in a day"
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, the qi-hardware.com run out of space.
<xiangfu>
dev/vda1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 49445508Â Â 44571324Â Â 2362424Â Â 95% /
<wolfspraul>
oops
<wolfspraul>
I have some server upgrades scheduled, but maybe we find a quick fix first
<wolfspraul>
let me check some logs...
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, I try to copy new ben images from fidelio to en.qi-hardware.com.
<wpwrak>
(heywood) a busy man ;-)
<wolfspraul>
Haste maketh waste
<wolfspraul>
not bad, eh?
<wolfspraul>
I can see you saying this with your typical nice smile!
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: I deleted some logs, 700 MB
<wpwrak>
i have some 2+ GB of .MOVies
<wolfspraul>
all fine
<wolfspraul>
the job is on my side to upgrade asap
<wpwrak>
if you need more room, those .MOVs are my M1 demos and the uncut ben-wpan video
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
your stuff are the crown jewels
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: ok I made a little more space
<wolfspraul>
4.5 GB avail now
<wolfspraul>
thanks for the notice
<xiangfu>
I will copy another 1GB file later(this week). :)
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul,  great. thanks.
<xiangfu>
update the m1 now by click 'webupdate'
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: and? :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, a PR idea: get M1 covered as "new concept" by the music press. not as a customer-ready product. and mention that the project is looking for investors to cover the work towards "polishing" it.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the current PR suffers from being in a hurry for reaching profitability. this means that you present it as something it isn't yet, and even sink a lot of energy into giving it a glossy appearance (which may still be a worthwhile exercise for getting experience). haste makes waste :-)
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
yes I agree, but I think we do that already
<wolfspraul>
the problem is that the world is full of people that talk about new 'concepts'
<wpwrak>
yes, but most of them don't have a nice prototype to show :)
<wolfspraul>
meaning that they think they are the greatest and deserve more recognition for the genius they think they are
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
so in order to break through this group, we chose to make a functioning and fun product ourselves, as a first step
<wolfspraul>
which is what we do
<wpwrak>
M1 is pretty advanced for a prototype, of course. but it still falls short of what most customers will expect.
<wolfspraul>
so now, either we like this product, and the fact that it's so good drives us forward, or we don't like it ourselves and then it deserves to die and everybody who ignored it until now made the right decision and saved themselves a lot of time from another crazy doomed project
<wpwrak>
and current PR is centered on placing it as a product, not as a call for investors
<wpwrak>
that fact that it's good isn't enough to drive it forward
<wolfspraul>
if we don't like it ourselves, nobody will join
<wolfspraul>
I think most people are very sensitive to not join a dead-end effort
<wpwrak>
it still needs a lot of work before it's nice and rounded. take my experience in the last weeks. basically anything i tried to do with it, that was supposed to "work", failed miserably, with each experiment producing half a dozen patches
<wolfspraul>
and even though we look at one problem after another, I think the stuff that is out on the market and fights for customers is also not perfect
<wpwrak>
now, i can fix things that get in my way. but most customers will not even be good at reporting them.
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, I know
<wolfspraul>
that's why most sales disappear into a black hole imho
<wolfspraul>
because the truth is they run into things that don't work for them pretty fast, and give up
<wpwrak>
perhaps it's that, yes
<wolfspraul>
where's nocarrier? :-)
<wolfspraul>
so yes, I agree with what you say about 'concept', just which concept exactly, and why people should believe in it. we have to proove that, nobody else will.
<wpwrak>
pressed for time, you also picked an odd use case as one of the main directions, namely the "automatic VJ". it took me a while to understand that M1 doesn't work like that.
<wpwrak>
also sebastien doesn't use it like that
<wolfspraul>
yep our marketing is also evolving
<wolfspraul>
the 'video tool' is much better
<wolfspraul>
only that you have created a setup with host redirection etc. that is beyond the reach of most people
<wpwrak>
i'd call it an instrument :) like a saxophone
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
so the output of the instrument is a video signal?
<wpwrak>
yup
<wpwrak>
(midi et al.) it's not only missing functionality but also making what is there work better. sebastien's approach is to work on a feature until it scratches his itch but rarely more than that. of course, that makes sense for the proof of concept, because there's a LOT of territory to cover.
<wpwrak>
but when you bring it to customers, you need to allow for variations. you can't just ship a box that contains M1 plus the whole world surrounding it.
<wpwrak>
even though you're partially doing that ;-)
<wpwrak>
as you broaden the coverage of scenarios for the existing functionality you converge towards covering a large part of real-life environments
<wolfspraul>
oh not whole world, definitely not
<wolfspraul>
you are right on that too - the accessories have to relate to the main marketing message
<wolfspraul>
and have to create value, make the product more usable
<wpwrak>
"from music to VJing in 3 minutes" is bad. all the things that emphasize that it's no effort to use it well are silly.
<wpwrak>
"visual power unleashed" is better ;-)
<wpwrak>
the ""instrument" doesn't have to be in the headline. but it has to be clear in the context
<wpwrak>
otherwise you get those "USD 500 screensafer" comments ;-)
<wpwrak>
that one was actually great. that guy understood the (all wrong) marketing message perfectly ;-)
<wpwrak>
"cool animations out of the box" is also bad. again, it suggests a triviality that isn't there.
<wpwrak>
"programming high performance visuals" and "the highest performance visuals, accessible in an easy programming language" position it towards sw development. that's probably not what VJs want to hear first
<wpwrak>
"no need to be a VJ to get it work" oh dead. talk about alienating your customers ;-)
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, one moment. I use a un-stable release. just reflash to rc3. now try to update.
<wpwrak>
(lava) "the emm pee three industry" ;)
<wolfspraul>
I only gave you those links as an example how other people before us tried to market/talk about this kind of features.
<wolfspraul>
it didn't work...
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
light instrument
<wolfspraul>
actually I've heard a couple of times how people like the effect of m1 in a dark room where m1 is the only light source in the room
<wpwrak>
they lacked the itunes store
<wolfspraul>
I meant those texts, how they tried to market it.
<wpwrak>
yes yes. a bit similar to M1
<wpwrak>
but all virtual
<wpwrak>
so there's a difference. do aspiring rock musicians get some iGuitar app or do they buy the real thing ?
<xiangfu>
(Failed to download version information)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: anyway, the marketing message is just one thing. the other aspect is that M1 needs more work. first of all, to make the existing features real-world usable. and then also to create a proper workflow or set of workflows. like the control architecture i described.
<wpwrak>
at some point in time, you'd also have to take this to real VJs (or go VJing) to see if it holds up in practice
<wpwrak>
basically get the nasty bits out of the way before you try to reach regular customers and reviewers
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: [failed to download version info] :-) and now?
<wpwrak>
if you go to reviewers now and present it as a finished product, you just confuse them.
<wolfspraul>
did dhcp work? you got an ip address?
<xiangfu>
without VPN open the version file under bowers needs ~4 seconds.
<xiangfu>
yes. I got the correct IP address.
<wpwrak>
IMHO, the whole "connect it to some idle screen" meme has to die. it's like advertizing some yamaha synthesizer on the strength of its automatic percussion
<wolfspraul>
and still not working?
<wolfspraul>
yes agreed, but we are just at the very beginning of making it work with controllers
<wolfspraul>
have to have some patience sometimes
<wolfspraul>
the only thing that works today is what you know works :-)
<wolfspraul>
really works
<wolfspraul>
whether you like the power of that or not
<wpwrak>
exactly. so ... it needs more work before it's ready.
<wolfspraul>
with the controllers we are on a very good path to reach the next level
<wpwrak>
however, you're marketing it as if it was ready now. even go to reviewers with that premise.
<wolfspraul>
as soon as I hear some positive news from you or Sebastien, I will buy a bunch more to accelerate this
<xiangfu>
the curl not work well when Internet unstable. we have to improve the download code to fit all Internet-environment
<wpwrak>
don't get me wrong. i think we are on a good path. what i'm saying is that this path goes on for a bit.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: ok, not robust enough
<wolfspraul>
got it
<xiangfu>
I will test later and report. I never test the 'webupdate' outside.(always test that at home)
<wpwrak>
and then the question is how the project will stay on that path. right now, there are extremely few people working on it and none are on a particularly sustainable path.
<wpwrak>
that's where external investment would help. i know you don't like the idea. but would you rather have the project fade and die ?
<wolfspraul>
no 'don't like'
<wolfspraul>
Jon and I are working on it
<wpwrak>
development needs a certain minimum speed to work. if things drop to the level of sebastien spending a few hours every other weekend, M1 will never be ready.
<wolfspraul>
agree
<wolfspraul>
then it will be added to the pile of failed 'open hardware' projects :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
I think Sebastien plans or is already working on serious polishing though
<wolfspraul>
ok gotta run, bbiab
<wpwrak>
yes, i think he has now returned to work full-time on some features
<wpwrak>
but i suspect that the next "real work" will have to happen sooner or later. well, maybe he's got a pot of gold somewhere that sustains him economically :)
<xiangfu>
(webupdate) not robust enough.
<wpwrak>
what trips it ?
<wpwrak>
back to USB. incoming message is now [~SOF15F][~SETUP0/0][~DATA0:00.05.01.00.00.00.00.00]. so far, so good.
<wpwrak>
comparison with PC: [~SOF180][~+ also good  (the ~ are differential ones before the beginning of the SYNC pattern)
<wolfspraul>
back :-) translating to action mode... first I will reorder the headlines as per what we like best now
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: btw I think you see m1 too 'glass half empty' now, too negative. I think it's a good and worthwhile start and we can attract new people and don't need to be afraid of the invitational effort.
<wpwrak>
i think you misunderstand the nature of my criticism
<wolfspraul>
in your feedback of the headlines, all but one are negative. so I will move those lower, and the one you liked a little to the top.
<wpwrak>
i agree that it's a good and worthwhile start. in fact, it's amazing what it can do already.
<wolfspraul>
ok, now we need to find new and more friends
<wolfspraul>
and some rich friends too, ideally :-)
<wpwrak>
but you're pushing it too aggressively now. you're pretending it's more finished than it is, pushing it to customers or reviewers that will review it as if ready for customers.
<wpwrak>
yes, exactly ;-)
<wpwrak>
i think that's at the root of the misrepresentation - the hurried need to make money
<wolfspraul>
ok but don't babysit people either. there's a lot that perfectly know what they get, and like to experiment with new stuff.
<wolfspraul>
I moved 'visual power unleashed' to the top
<wolfspraul>
now, I try to email heise about that, let's see :-)
<wpwrak>
and i think you should make it clear that the project is looking for investment
<wpwrak>
investors interested in that segment will probably read the news. so if you can get some "future tech pre-review", this reaches them.
<wolfspraul>
I want a customer who orders 1000 m1, not an investor.
<wpwrak>
yes, and i want a pink unicorn that breathes fire ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the difference is subtle, but when I go around I look for customers... I think that's the way that can work. Maybe Jon is a little more focused on plain 'investors', he has to speak up about the exact nature of whom he tries to find.
<wolfspraul>
I believe we will not find an investor unless that person also buy and believes in the sellability.
<wolfspraul>
anybody who studies the project will determine the stage of it, and understand that to lift it to the next level as a product is the same as 'investing'
<wpwrak>
your customer segment is very limited. there aren't a lot of people who will buy something that's still "under construction"
<wolfspraul>
but in order for this to become real, it has to be a strong buyer or distributor who has the financial ability to order (and sell)
<wpwrak>
they'll just wait until you finish
<wolfspraul>
that's rare enough
<wolfspraul>
oh no, they would have the product first, they can have it exclusive, etc.
<wpwrak>
that's where investors enter the picture. they finance the phase from great idea to sellable product
<wolfspraul>
the problem is that a lot of buyers are not that involved, in fact they would expect financing and risk to be taken elsewhere
<wolfspraul>
I don't think the type of investor you have in mind exists.
<wpwrak>
no distibutor will pick it up if it still needs half a year of development
<wpwrak>
maybe what you're looking for is a distributor who thinks and acts like an investor
<wolfspraul>
don't get hung up on 'distributor'
<wolfspraul>
there are many businesses around
<wpwrak>
but then, why not just look for an investor ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but I'm saying unless the 'investor' we are looking for can imagine to suddenly sit on 1000 m1, he will not invest
<wolfspraul>
I will give him m1 for his dollars
<wolfspraul>
if he doesn't like that, he will not invest anyway
<wpwrak>
the investor will probably have several steps in mind: certain R&D objectives. then, pre-production evaluation. if the device passes, you get the money to produce these 1000 units. or maybe 200 first and then re-evaluation. whatever :)
<wolfspraul>
we will have found our investor once we have found a customer who wants to order 1k or more units
<wolfspraul>
that's the same person
<wolfspraul>
one thing I foudn recently in terms of investing was the latest OpenPandora moves
<wolfspraul>
the OP team continues to amaze me :-)
<wpwrak>
no. the customer will want a finished device. but you don't have that.
<wolfspraul>
they have ripped off their customers several times, and are now raising money from small private guys on a contractual basis
<wolfspraul>
bypassing the typical VC or banking world
<wpwrak>
and you won't have a finished device without more money.
<wolfspraul>
and it seems to work, they think they can collect ca. 350k EUR that way
<wolfspraul>
no wrong
<wolfspraul>
every large customer knows very well how much money needs to be invested
<wpwrak>
sebastien will only be able to work full-time for so long on it. and since he'll be working almost alone, it will be hard to motivate him.
<wolfspraul>
or do you think they fall for any of our "it's complete" bs :-)
<wpwrak>
well, what is the product you're trying to sell ? M1 ? or the project ? the latter could work. that's something "sellable", even if still in progress
<wolfspraul>
if that works, it's something to learn from (not the 'rip off your customers' part, but the fact that you can bypass professional investors by going the community route)
<wolfspraul>
no the question is what they want to buy
<wolfspraul>
I propose m1 right now, sure
<wolfspraul>
we can make an increasingly good pitch for that
<wpwrak>
(community) well, why not :) some people probably have heaps of money laying around and they may like the idea better to invest into a worthwhile project than giving it to their banksters
<wpwrak>
fine. so they'll listen to your increasingly good pitch. then they'll go home and wait for how good your pitch will be in three months :)
<wolfspraul>
that's also a way to combine people who believe in the product with those that help finance and produce it
<wpwrak>
if you die until then, well, it's just one lost opportunity
<wolfspraul>
every investor can do that, what's your point?
<wolfspraul>
either they think it's an interesting product that helps their business, or not
<wolfspraul>
cash by definition is the most liquid form of value, meaning you think hardest moving out of it :-)
<wolfspraul>
once you are out of it, getting back to cash is hard enough...
<wolfspraul>
I am looking for a customer who orders 1k or more m1, I think it's the easier route than looking for someone to just send money (invest) with whatever ultimate goal in mind
<wpwrak>
an investor could in theory also be a distributor, but that's an uncommon combination. they have different fields of expertise.
<wolfspraul>
customer, better
<wolfspraul>
my 2c
<wpwrak>
but you do understand that M1 is not in a shape where a reasonable customer will buy 1k units ?
<wolfspraul>
there are tons of successful businesses, I don't think what you mean with 'distributor' is what I mean
<wolfspraul>
I think we are close
<wolfspraul>
and that customer would understand that the delivery time is 3 months or so and we will spend part of his money on continuing bugfixes
<wpwrak>
would you have said the same 2 weeks ago ? :)
<wpwrak>
i don't think your "customer" exists :)
<wpwrak>
why not call him "investor", because he'd have to behave exactly like one ;-)
<wpwrak>
including trying to get some control over the development process
<wpwrak>
i think that's what you're afraid of. having to give up some control
<wpwrak>
maybe you can find a customer who will pre-order 1k units. sign a MoU. pay on delivery. does that help you ?
<wpwrak>
maybe you can take that MoU to the bank and get a loan
<wolfspraul>
no they pay 50% when ordering, and 50% before shipping
<wpwrak>
why should they ?
<wpwrak>
they may do that if the product is finished and all you need to do is the manufacturing. low risk.
<wpwrak>
but it's not there yet. you can't show the finished product yet.
<wpwrak>
(low risk) well, lower risk. still messy, as we know.
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<wolfspraul>
business is about risk
<wolfspraul>
everybody takes risks
<wpwrak>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
that's why any serious customer first wants to see the product, test it
<wolfspraul>
ANY
<wolfspraul>
guaranteed
<wpwrak>
precisely
<wolfspraul>
why do they accept 50/50 terms - because those are our terms, unnegotiable
<wolfspraul>
we are a manufacturer, not a bank
<wolfspraul>
the entire odm/oem industry works on such terms
<wolfspraul>
someone is doing just the manufacturing, that company is paid partially when ordering, partially before delivery
<wolfspraul>
someone else is doing financing
<wolfspraul>
that company carries the return risk too, they are usually paid by the retailer 30 or even 60 or 90 days *after* the actual sale in the store :-)
<wolfspraul>
minus returns, minus fees, minus whatever
<wolfspraul>
I cannot and do not want to play that role.
<wpwrak>
so far, so good
<wpwrak>
but that's manufacturing
<wolfspraul>
yes, I can manufacture this thing
<wolfspraul>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
for normal manufacturing terms
<wpwrak>
but you can't design it
<wolfspraul>
keep in mind all files are open, so if someone doesn't like this - manufacture yourself!
<wpwrak>
hah ! straight from the linux kernel:
<wpwrak>
/* TRSTRCY = 10 ms; plus some extra */
<wpwrak>
msleep(10 + 40);
<wpwrak>
weird. now i just managed to hang navre, it seems
<wpwrak>
hmm. how big can the navre code get ?
<wpwrak>
ah. 11 address bits, each for a 2 byte word. and "size" says we're at 4 kB.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what control do you believe we (or me) retain that may be bad for the product/project?
<wpwrak>
what i meant is that i suspect you don't want to find an investor because you're afraid of losing some control over the project
<wpwrak>
regarding jon's search for investors, i think he's going in a totally different direction. nothing directly related to technical development, more related to the very big picture. M1 is a mere drop in that ocean.
<wpwrak>
that doesn't mean it couldn't work, but it's something where the strength of M1 is of limited use
<wpwrak>
when looking for R&D investment on the other hand, you have something very convincing to show right now
<wolfspraul>
loosing which control?
<wolfspraul>
btw, we should also not underestimate the value of having produced over 130 units by now
<wolfspraul>
a run of 500 or 1k is by far not completely crazy
<wpwrak>
over what you do what commitments you make, etc.
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wolfspraul>
I don't like to receive investments based on over-promising, yes, true.
<wpwrak>
(130 units) oh, sure
<wolfspraul>
so I need to understand the upside potential
<wolfspraul>
back to those 130 units, they have given us incredible insights into the technology, and also users
<wolfspraul>
even if we are still dealing with a lot of silence
<wolfspraul>
there was and is no other path
<wolfspraul>
136 to be precice, phew
<wolfspraul>
precise
<wolfspraul>
too hard :-) hardware is too hard...
<wpwrak>
maybe. perhaps a few more eyes could have helped. as well as some more hands. not a lot. just a little.
<wpwrak>
but in any case, what's important is not the past but the future
<wpwrak>
what you have is a "half-finished" product. and you have demonstrable production experience. you have or know people who you believe can bring the product to completion.
<roh>
wpwrak: i think what we have is 'a plan' aswell as enough experience for an educated guess about the short to medium future possibilities of getting stuff done
<roh>
anything else can change at any time (availability on nonstocked parts, people walking away due to financial pressure etc)
<wpwrak>
roh: yes, the plan is there, too. probably needs writing down, with numbers
<roh>
maybe. i see the key in customers. make the numbers go up, the cost will go down, profit margin rises a bit... -> maybe one could pay people doing more work then ;)
<wpwrak>
yes, but that's not product development. then it's just a hobby
<roh>
investors are also just 'weird banks' .. they want to see something in return. so calling people who get hardware in return customers fits better
<wpwrak>
that's wolfgang's strategy. where's the revenue ? :)
<roh>
selling the hw.
<roh>
thats why i would also call it customer.
<wpwrak>
but he's not selling nearly enough hardware
<roh>
well.. its very weird special case hw
<wpwrak>
and he doesn't have the resources to improve the hardware
<wpwrak>
see the ben. abandoned.
<roh>
maybe we need some more simple products to make the brand known? well.. thats guesswork. i am not a salesman ;)
<wpwrak>
and yes, of course investors want something in return
<wpwrak>
they want a share of the profits when the thing finally starts selling. probably a big share.
<wpwrak>
it's obviously better if you don't need external financing (as long as you succeed in the end)
<wpwrak>
(simple) arduinos ;-)
<roh>
true
<roh>
about ben.. i see the major problem on the mechanical side (costly to develop, not much 'inhouse' expertise) as well as the cost
<wpwrak>
there's nothing in the ben we wouldn't want to be able to master. it's even a simple device, also mechanically
<wpwrak>
and yes, it's costly to develop. anything is costly to develop :)
<wpwrak>
M1 has several sebastien-years of R&D in it. that's already a large value. even if we discount the student years, that's still 1.5 calendar years of work. maybe he'd make EUR 100k per year doing similar work in industry. so 150 kEUR, just opportunity cost on his side.
<roh>
true. quite a lot investment in there already, especially in lifetime of the developers
<wolfspraul>
ben is not abandoned
<wolfspraul>
I know because I keep paying the bills
<wpwrak>
then we have adam working pretty much full-time on it. xiangfu part-time. wolfgang, yi, jon, lars, mwalle, me a bit, various other contributors
<wolfspraul>
and very much like to do that
<roh>
and with simple i meant somethign much simpler as the ben. maybe without case
<wolfspraul>
ben is off-topic in this channel, hope Sebastien doesn't mind :-)
<wolfspraul>
so far we have been unable to involve Ingenic in any serious way
<wpwrak>
roh: then the cost of prototype development
<wolfspraul>
I will continue to work on that
<wolfspraul>
I agree with roh that the ben mechanical is a blocker for further progress, that's my #1 thing now
<roh>
wpwrak: sure. but for simple devices that sinks enormously
<wpwrak>
roh: i mean on the investment side of M1
<wolfspraul>
the value of the Ben software is high and increasing imho, because I think for most manufacturers and products, Android is a bad trap
<roh>
e.g. for a device without case (thing the arduino-zoo and add on boards for an example) you only need a few bucks... similar development like atben/atusb
<wpwrak>
roh: M1 probably already has the equivalent of maybe 2 MUSD of R&D value. maybe more.
<roh>
means one or only a few persons complete development in one location, including dvt runs, and then the pvt etc happens whereever the real volumes are made.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's deprecating because it's tied to a dying platform
<wolfspraul>
the notebook market has zero money left for innovation
<wolfspraul>
tablet still has money, but will be just the mainstream consumption device, especially if Amazon can successfully reduce the tablet price to 199 USD (to be decided next year)
<roh>
wolfspraul: true. and devices are dead-ends on their latest vendor supported kernels etc. no fixes, no security fixes
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: really not true. the openwrt basis is great.
<wolfspraul>
'dying platform' = what? Ingenic?
<wolfspraul>
yes, with Ingenic I will continue to push for a sizable investment actually
<roh>
is developing home-automation stuff atm. avr based. redneck home solding compatible technology. most of it even single sided.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the ben. how popular is the ben openwrt on other devices ? in terms of people using it ?
<wolfspraul>
other devices?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: other ingenic devices
<wolfspraul>
should we move the ben chat over to #qi-hardware ? people there will miss it
<wolfspraul>
oh I'm on that
<roh>
to be fair... my main blocker with the ben (motivational wise) are its limits for my daily use. i simply dont have one to be earnest
<wolfspraul>
but Ingenic has extremely few brain cells to think about software, or even understand what's going on :-)
<aw_>
just went to smt factory there to do some works for bga inspections. ;-) phew...
<wpwrak>
aw_: sucks, eh ? ;-)
<aw_>
retrieve two m1 boards back. ;-)
<aw_>
i'll continue working on this. not finished all.
<aw_>
still have some pictures not all uploaded. will do soon.
<wolfspraul>
excellent
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: sorry yes, I meant the delay you found in the Linux sources didn't make the problem go away on m1
<wpwrak>
ah yes. that's the slightly disappointing result. well, it'll make things easier in the future :)
<wpwrak>
the next step will be to examine what the device really receives. but .. first a nap :)
<lekernel>
kristianpaul: if it's just a clock input and you don't have anything to synchronize it to, clock_dedicated_route=false has no side effect except waste a negligible amount of the FPGA routing resource
<lekernel>
wpwrak: does the device answer after that 50ms delay (FYI: I had implemented something like that at the beginning, but I removed it because the spec also says the devices go to suspend mode after no activity has been detected for a few ms... wtf?)
<stekern>
aah, ok, thanks. but surely that "go to suspend mode" is not valid during a bus reset?
<lekernel>
that's immediately after the bus reset and before the first transaction
<lekernel>
maybe we should send SOFs/keepalive during that period?
<stekern>
I would assume so
<wpwrak>
(idle) ah, i wasn't sure about that. well, nothing easier to try than that :)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: and no, the device doesn't answer. but ... my device doesn't implement suspend anyway
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (c't) nice headline
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: hmm, faderfox's M1 has run into a "shipment exception". never saw those "details". each country its own weird procedures :)
<roh>
heh, our hackspace is listed in the recent ct hardware hacks (special issue)
<wolfspraul>
shipment exception, let's see
<wolfspraul>
I had doubts about the low value, German customs are bean counters
<wolfspraul>
hey, lies mal die antwort von heise :-)
<wolfspraul>
sorry, German
<wolfspraul>
lemme reply to that as well :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think this reply is very interesting
<wolfspraul>
forwarded to you
<wolfspraul>
what do you think?
<wpwrak>
lemme check ...
<wpwrak>
karaoke machine. hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
i guess the marketing message this far may have left some impressions. with M1 being positioned as a device with only multimedia input but no significant controls of its own.
<wpwrak>
and yes, the low video in and out specs are coming back to haunt us once more.
<wpwrak>
they're also one of the reasons why i think we should go slowly with approaching customers. because if we decide to fix the video in/out quality, it will take time.
<wolfspraul>
wait wait
<wolfspraul>
first of all he spends his time and tries to understand what this is
<wolfspraul>
which is great
<wpwrak>
unfortunately, it's not only the specs. you can see the problems quite clearly. maybe we can hide some of the video out issues, without upgrading overall specs. lekernel's plan sounds promising. but it's still a bit of work.
<wolfspraul>
and he is immediately misled
<wpwrak>
is he ?
<wpwrak>
misled i mean
<wolfspraul>
from our perspective, sure
<wolfspraul>
if the end result is that a notebook is better, then we misled people that looked at our stuff in good faith :-)
<wpwrak>
okay, the karaoke machine is a little odd :)
<wolfspraul>
because of course we cannot win the notebook comparison
<wolfspraul>
he tries to understand what this strange box is
<wolfspraul>
he just cannot imagine that someone comes out with a new machine with these specs in 2011
<wolfspraul>
so he thinks it must be something completely crazy out of Japan :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think that's very understandable and funny
<wpwrak>
yes, but part of the specs is not just poor specs. it's poor results. let's not pretend everything is perfect.
<wolfspraul>
so which way do we go now in explaining?
<wolfspraul>
the "oh, but it's all gpl" route?
<wpwrak>
e.g., i have yet to see a usable camera image
<wolfspraul>
ah, tell me more about camera issues
<wpwrak>
(part of that may be equipment, lighting, etc., though)
<wolfspraul>
you think we have a problem somewhere?
<wolfspraul>
first time I hear that from you
<wolfspraul>
and for the heise guy - how to answer his questions?
<wpwrak>
camera images have low resolution and bad color contrast
<wolfspraul>
he is open-minded to carrying this thing, that's why he writes back
<wolfspraul>
but right now he doesn't get it :-)
<wpwrak>
the color contrast may be an equipment/lighting issue, though. if i get people to stand still long enough to shine some strong light into their faces, the images get better :)
<wolfspraul>
do you want to try to reply?
<wolfspraul>
your way to answer is often breadth-taking, maybe he likes it :-)
<roh>
hm. i havent seen/played with the camera now packed.. is it that bad?
<wolfspraul>
nah, no way
<wolfspraul>
I did a 1-month long camera comparison, must have compared 20+ cameras
<wolfspraul>
for an analog camera, what we include is a really nice one, 1/3'' Sony CCD sensor etc.
<wpwrak>
the low camera resolution is part low specs, part the soc only using one of the two half-frames, and maybe also due to poor color contrast (which acts a blur. perhaps also caused by composite video. that's why i once asked about using r/g/b split)
<roh>
hm.
<wolfspraul>
of course it cannot beat a HD/hdmi/whatever cam
<wpwrak>
i tried two video sources: the bundled camera and my canon still image camera (with composite out)
<roh>
ok.. the only one field issue is evil.. that halves vertical resolution. which may already be only ~400 lines
<wpwrak>
roh: yes ;-)
<wpwrak>
of course, merging the two fields is hard, as everyone knows. and afaik there's no progressive composite. so it comes down to composite being the limiting factor.
<wolfspraul>
you can also hook up the cam to a TV if you have one, see whether that comes out better or not
<wpwrak>
not sure if separate rgb is also interlaced or not
<roh>
true. simply said.. if its analog video and not hd, its progressive (99.9% of the time)
<wolfspraul>
and what did the comparison with your canon show you?
<wpwrak>
canon: image quality still not convincing
<roh>
wpwrak: also interlaced, usually. i know very few devices which can work with progressive content at all
<lekernel>
what? milkymist is on c't?
<wpwrak>
but i didn't go too deeply yet. just noticed that it's bad
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: no it's not on c't, but almost ;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: not yet :) we're trying to shape the message
<roh>
hm. is the video adc too simple? or whats the issue?
<wolfspraul>
(though I don't think we can pass that barrier, to be honest. not right now...)
<roh>
i mean.. there isnt much schematic from input to chip to do something wrong.... ;)
<wolfspraul>
I have fairly good contacts at c't, well, at least they listen to what I have to say and they know I'm a serious guy
<wpwrak>
roh: the adc does everything right. but you still need to piece the two fields together
<roh>
maybe only setting proper adc register values will fix it?
<wolfspraul>
but no way I can make them write what I think they should write ;-) (and that's perfectly fine)
<lekernel>
the 7181c may improve color btw
<wolfspraul>
in fact I highly value their feedback, since they deal with news all the time, if we believe being carried there is a big win for us (which I am not so sure about), then we have to pass their checks...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: do you want to reply?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: how's your experience with video in so far ? does it look "good" to you ? or more like "good enough to leave it alone for a while and rush to the next fire that needs fighting" ?
<wolfspraul>
I'll contemplate for half an hour or so :-)
<lekernel>
as you said, color is often not enough
<lekernel>
that's the main problem I have with it, and I hope the 7181C would improve a bit
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yo're better at smooth writing. i'll be happy to reply with proof-reading, though :)
<wolfspraul>
and I love your arguments so much
<wolfspraul>
I think you have some way to write to him that leaves him no chance but to feature Milkymist all over their publications for a month!
<lekernel>
resolution issues, not really. it doesn't matter that much when it goes through the average beamer...
<wpwrak>
mmh, 240 lines on an XXXXx768 or better unit ? that's almost 1:4. you ought to notice, even if it's blurred and such
<lekernel>
I don't want to write a deinterlacer. if I want to spend time on something pesky, I'd rather design a HDMI input.
<lekernel>
both are equally annoying, with the HDMI input giving a far better result in the end :)
<roh>
sure. but which cams do have live hdmi out?
<roh>
well.. in the 'reasonable price' range
<wpwrak>
maybe we can have composite and hdmi in ? :)
<wpwrak>
what kind of output DO cameras actually have ? i mean the not-too-expensive consumer cameras
<roh>
cvbs and maybe svideo
<roh>
svideo already helps a lot
<lekernel>
I think there are a few that have HDMI, no?
<roh>
nothing below a few hundred bucks
<roh>
hdmi is designed for the living room. from pc/gaming console/set-top-box to tv.. not really for 'inputs'
<roh>
also you have that sucky hdcp issue...do you?
<lekernel>
so, what do you recommend for high quality live digital video from cameras?
<lekernel>
HDCP has been broken, no?
<lekernel>
and I don't think it's enabled for your personal videos
<roh>
lekernel: its not a technical but a licensing issue afaik
<lekernel>
we did not sign anything
<wpwrak>
can HDMI work without HDCP ? i.e., can you simply not encrypt and the receiver will accept it ?
<lekernel>
and it's not even HDMI, it's digital video input
<roh>
sure. but maybe you cannot buy the needed chips if you don't or so
<lekernel>
the FPGA takes HDMI signals directly
<roh>
hdmi as output to a beamer is more common. but i havent seen it on consumer stuff for live camera video. maybe some high-end dslr do that
<roh>
professional video is all sdi
<lekernel>
SDI cameras are several thousand euros, no?
<roh>
one bnc socket. digital, uncompressed serial bitstream.
<roh>
yes.
<lekernel>
HDMI looks like a nice in-between CVBS/S-video and SDI ...
<roh>
sure.
<roh>
i'd recommend to first see whats wrong with the video. make svideo work with an mini-din to rca adapter.. add that to the package
<roh>
shouldnt be magic. maybe you can 'solve' it by some input switching logic and some static presets like more color gain or so
<wolfspraul>
if we have a dvi-i connector, can we use vga for output and hdmi for input? (over that same connector)
<roh>
but the latter doesnt say if thats a live video without osd or what is coming out of the hdmi
<wolfspraul>
oh, and I totally think we should bugfix/improve/support the hw we have now, rather than thinking about which other hw to switch to. first the former, then the latter.
<wolfspraul>
otherwise we burn our early adopters/customers, and I cannot think of any tech/brand that would have survived that
<wpwrak>
(make the most with the existing hw) agreed. but also keep on looking for low-hanging fruits for future M1rcX. like dvi-i out.
<wolfspraul>
if we have a dvi-i connector, can it also serve as video input?
<roh>
nope. not really the idea of that connector
<lekernel>
it's a hack, but it should work
<wolfspraul>
ok, thanks
<wolfspraul>
just curious
<roh>
electrically.. well.. if you add a weird adapter cable.. but thats fishy
<wolfspraul>
not weird, dvi-i adapter cables are very common
<wolfspraul>
maybe not that one? I don't know
<wolfspraul>
anyway, my question is already answered, I understand it's a hack
<wolfspraul>
if we currently only decode 1/2 of the lines of our cam, I'd say that sounds like an easy way to improve a lot :-) (I may underestimate the amount of work it takes to make this work, I admit)
<wolfspraul>
the uptick to 7181c is planned, so that's good
<wolfspraul>
we can try to source a cam with higher output specs, but I understand that's not even the bottleneck today, so why bother... (right now)
<lekernel>
deinterlacing is a massive mess
<wolfspraul>
I got the feeling above
<lekernel>
will use at least 1/4 of the FPGA just for that, not to count man-hours
<wolfspraul>
to me cam quality is not a high-priority problem
<wolfspraul>
in fact I hear it the first time today from Werner
<wolfspraul>
what I hear a lot is still-pics, usb-midi
<lekernel>
no, it's not. and within cam quality problems, color is more important than resolution.
<wpwrak>
yeah, i think color is what you notice first. images look washed out.
<wpwrak>
add to this the low color depth on the digital side and the quick propagation of rounding errors it causes, and the overall effect is much less than what should be possible
<ab5tract>
wolfspraul, i would like the ability to stream video from video files (which i guess is along similar principles to static images)
<ab5tract>
mixing live stream and pre-recorded
<ab5tract>
so, stream mixing (all inputs should be equiv: live, static, and AVI)
<ab5tract>
and by avi i mean MPEG-4, which i think the mm1 could handle decoding?
<lekernel>
I've tried compiled ffmpeg for rtems - it does compile, but I don't know if it works and at what speed
<wolfspraul>
ab5tract: realistically that's a tough development job and may take months
<wolfspraul>
I'm lowering expectations first :-)
<wolfspraul>
now that they are lowered, let's find hackers!
<ab5tract>
hehe
<ab5tract>
well, static images is a nice start
<wolfspraul>
m1 is definitely one of the most interesting computing platforms right now, I think that's fair to say
<ab5tract>
im assuming the best documentation is sebastian's thesis?
<wolfspraul>
maybe you can go around and motivate some developers to have a look?
<ab5tract>
though it occurs to me that it might be in french
<ab5tract>
yeah i can obviously try
<ab5tract>
and i will :)
<wolfspraul>
ab5tract: thanks!
<wolfspraul>
we can make a todo list that would make any computer science prof proud :-)
<ab5tract>
wolfspraul, that is an interesting angle actually
<ab5tract>
there might be compsci departments interested in teaching on such a platform
<ab5tract>
though i expect documentation would be an issue there (no textbooks, not sure what the reference manual for the processor looks like a la my question about sebastiens thesis above)
<wolfspraul>
I think documentation is not that bad, just start with the sources
<wolfspraul>
the advantage of us working on an actual functioning product is huge pull/focus towards something that works overall
<wolfspraul>
if I were to learn something, I would want to start with something that works, and then tweak it
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: do you have a TV you can connect the composite out to for quick quality comparison?
<wolfspraul>
before we blame composite or the cam...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: of course. don't you remember watching argentina's shame before germany ? :)
<wolfspraul>
ah yes, of course. great game
<wolfspraul>
4:0
<wpwrak>
grmbl
<wpwrak>
at least the city gave a rather convincing "28 days later" experience afterwards
<wpwrak>
ab5tract: technical documentation is pretty good. some things may need a bit of updating, but overall, it tells you want you want to know.
<wpwrak>
ab5tract: user documentation is so-so. the reference material gives you a starting point for doing your own experiments.
<wpwrak>
ab5tract: things get more grim when it comes to introductions/tutorials (for users). this is an area that needs more work. maybe also by combining them with the reference material in the FN handbook (which is the general direction of that manual anyway)
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, is the fullspeed show 12M under lsusb -t?
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul, the GreenAsia is lowspeed.
<wpwrak>
(full-speed) yes. in the case of atusb, i even know that it can't be low-speed, no matter how hard you try ;-) (some devices can be both)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: how about the one with sputtering output?
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu_: brand of that one was "Yaoguangqishi" - do you still have it?
<wolfspraul>
my guess would be low-speed as well, but now that we know this distinction we can check real quick...
<xiangfu_>
yes.
<xiangfu_>
just checked. that one low-speed as well
<wolfspraul>
and that was partially ironic when I wrote it! :-)
<wolfspraul>
"good news - we haven't found a USB mouse yet that would not work with Milkymist One."
<wolfspraul>
notice the 'yet' :-)
<wolfspraul>
I was frustrated and worn out from keyboard testing at that time, so I was hoping writing this there would somehow be a good defense. didn't work.
<wolfspraul>
I never did serious mice testing either, that also didn't help
<wolfspraul>
oh well
<wolfspraul>
anyway now we found our first troublemaker, that's good to track and hopefully eventually fix this as well
<wolfspraul>
good catch!
<xiangfu_>
(webupdate) at home. works fine. it only works fine when Internet connect is stable and fast.
<xiangfu_>
my home is 2M ADSL. download speed ~270KB/s
<xiangfu_>
200KB/s ~ 300KB/s
<xiangfu_>
Kb
<wolfspraul>
we need to track down what exactly it needs in terms of 'stable and fast'
<wolfspraul>
and then make the update more robust
<wolfspraul>
it should be able to support and survive any interruption, packet loss, cable unplugged in the middle, dc jack unplugged, etc.
<xiangfu_>
yes.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: faderfox package looks good, no worry
<wolfspraul>
that looks more like an internal fedex hickup to me, a little slower than expected basically
<wolfspraul>
from my understanding he will only get the m1 as a casual/interested user anyway
<wolfspraul>
he wants to know what this is, how it works
<wolfspraul>
but very good for us to get this feedback since he is deeply involved in the controller scene for 7 years at least, and most likely in that field even before then, I would think
<wpwrak>
(package) yes, took me a while to decode it. looks good then :)
<wolfspraul>
so I'm looking forward to his feedback :-)
<xiangfu_>
after webupdate. I re-plug the power. the NOR-corruption happen again. now I am read the standby.bin back.
<xiangfu_>
there is no NOR-corruption. maybe new issue. what I do is. do webupdate. then re-plug the power cable.
<xiangfu_>
press the middle button can not boot m1.
<lekernel>
very nice. like I didn't test that stuff 20 times or so already
<xiangfu_>
read the standby.fpg back. show all fine. no NOR-corruption.
<xiangfu_>
but now it can  boot again.
<wpwrak>
xiangfu_: what do the NOR lock bits look like now ?
<lekernel>
with the new version?
<xiangfu_>
lekernel, OS still show: RTEMS 4.10.99.0.
<lekernel>
the OS version number is meaningless
<lekernel>
what are the others?
<xiangfu_>
lekernel, other fine. I take some screenshot. will send a quick feedback now (to mailing list)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: btw, regarding navre progmem size. which way should it go ? like my patch does, try to make things fit in 4 kB (i did it this way because that lets me avoid touching verilog and all that entails),or the other way around, grow the navre progmem in the SOC to 8 kB ?
<lekernel>
no, grow the soc program
<roh>
grow soc.
<roh>
make it 16k or so. or is that memory thats 'precious'?
<wpwrak>
it's fpga memory. so yes, my preciousss :)
<roh>
meh
<wpwrak>
lekernel: so ... would you mind growing that soc for me ? :) so that i can chase the usb full-speed mystery some more today instead of spending the next days figuring out what failure modes exist between the xilinx tools and wine ?
<lekernel>
there's a linux version of the xilinx tools
<lekernel>
and yes, anyway
<wpwrak>
thanks ! :)
<wpwrak>
(isn't the "linux version" just a win binaries plus wine bundle ?)
<wpwrak>
(thought i had once read something like this. not sure if it was about these tools, though)
<lekernel>
no, it's not
<lekernel>
they have questionable "portability" toolkits, but most of them aren't as bad as wine
<wpwrak>
cool. one of these days then
<GitHub20>
[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qKe3Ig
<GitHub20>
[milkymist/master] softusb: increase program memory size to 8K - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<xiangfu_>
wpwrak, lockbit all correct.
<xiangfu_>
wpwrak, maybe I do something wrong.
<wpwrak>
xiangfu_: or maybe you do something very right ;-)
<xiangfu_>
wpwrak, there is no 'unlock' code under flickernoise or rtems driver. so webupdate will never touch the lock bit (if there is no other bug :)
<xiangfu_>
wpwrak, when I plug power cable to m1. sometimes just press middle button cann't boot m1. I have to replug the power cable again.
<xiangfu_>
but it rare happen.
<xiangfu_>
wpwrak, I have two combine keyboard and mouse devices. both only keyboard working. will testing your new usb code when the buildhost finish the build
<kristianpaul>
lars_: i think thats why i wait until 13.x :)
<roh>
tftp that is.not for mm.. but in general. tftp is icky sometimes
<lekernel>
12.x is full of bugs, install 13.3
<kristianpaul>
roh: what you think if or mm? memcard boot? or mm it self implementing its own tftp server?
<roh>
?
<kristianpaul>
i understand you disagree tftp is not for mm and mm + milkymist?
<kristianpaul>
s/+/=
<kristianpaul>
roccc,cool :)
<roh>
ah.. no. i meant hat i agree that tftp in general (nothing to do with the mm1) is tricky and not that easy to get working. and i got good results using tftpd-hpa as server for embedded devices
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: ah, maybe the --secure is what does the trick. anyway, atftpd seems to work okay.
<GitHub88>
[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/1VJJDg
<GitHub88>
[milkymist/master] softusb: remove compiler warning about unused variable - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub88>
[milkymist/master] softusb: implement the reset recovery interval - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub88>
[milkymist/master] USB: send SOFs and keepalives on both ports and immediately after reset - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<lekernel>
...but it still gets ignored
<lekernel>
this is amazing. I get the exact same sequence from the PC and M1: 50 SOFs + get device descriptor at address 0, byte for byte
<lekernel>
the M1 gets ignored, the PC does not
<lekernel>
I wonder what the flying fuck is going on there again
<wpwrak>
interesting, isn't it ? :)
<wpwrak>
i also had a brief look at one of the analog signals and it didn't look unusually ugly. but then, my equipment is not ideal for analyzing such things.
<wpwrak>
USB is known to be rather finicky about the analog domain.
<lekernel>
is the atusb recognized by the M1?
<lekernel>
I mean, does the "set address" or "get device descriptor" works?
<lekernel>
maybe inspecting what the atusb receives on the other side would help?
<wpwrak>
no, no response. still need to start tweaking it, though. at least there, i can control both sides
<wpwrak>
yes, that's the idea
<wpwrak>
hmm, shouldn't the demo fw print usb debug messages ?
<wpwrak>
ah wait. need to update the soc ..
<lekernel>
i'm nearly done with the new uart driver, don't worry :p
<wpwrak>
good. for now i've reached nirvana. updated everything. and nothing works anymore ;-)
<lekernel>
sounds like you forgot to update the bios?
<wpwrak>
i did that as well. before i got at least one hopeful newline when booting. afterwards, not even that :-(
<wpwrak>
reverting to a known good state now ...
<wpwrak>
btw, for banners it may be useful to include the build date and time. that way, you notice if by some accident something wasn't updated
<wpwrak>
these tend to be the nastiest "bugs" to fix. because everything will be perfect in the code ... :)
<wpwrak>
good. the old order has been restored :)
<wpwrak>
in honor of this, i shall call my next patch modifications "reactionary mix" ;-)
<wpwrak>
now let's see if i can beat some sense into this old atusb ... the tricky bit is that i need to replace the boot loader. else, that one will fight with the m1 and i'll never get to the "interesting" code
<lekernel>
works
<lekernel>
now, on to the fun of formatting a patch with that CVS crap
<lekernel>
grmbl
<lekernel>
something that can be done with "git diff" in < 1s takes several minutes with that retardware (including rants)
<wpwrak>
one should support for efficient ranting an essential feature of any non-trivial piece of software
<wpwrak>
s/should/should consider/
<wpwrak>
oh great. this is the board where the reset pad with trace came off. no in-circuit programming with the fellow ...