<terpstra>
the cool thing about MPS is that you aren't editing one language or even text
<terpstra>
they call it a "projective editor"
<terpstra>
which means it represents its AST as text which you type as normal, but really you are operating on the AST
<terpstra>
that means your code can include tables, flow charts, ambiguous grammer, etc -- and it all works
<lekernel>
is it a bit like lisp macros?
<terpstra>
no
<terpstra>
this "projective editor" concept is really something new
<terpstra>
scala was also quite popular at icaleps... it supposedly unifies OOP and FP. as a FP programmer who has to work with OOP folks, I am seeing if it is a nice middle ground =D
<lekernel>
what's so great about Java? frankly (and sorry for that) I would describe it as some over-marketed junk that is merely about combining the disadvantages of compiled and interpreted languages
<lekernel>
so I'm a little dubious when I see programming language talks from people who enjoy Java :) that's just a superficial first reaction of course
<terpstra>
i have never liked java
<terpstra>
but i'm not a bigot either :-P
<lekernel>
grmbl. recording v4l video sources is amazingly complicated
<lekernel>
the GUI programs are riddled with bugs and the command line is a mess
<roh>
lekernel: well.. i simply have the pov: 'my life is interresting enough to be bored by java' ;)
<roh>
about v4l, make sure you read recent specs, not v4l1 from the stoneages.... v4l2 cleaned some things up and added compressed video formats
<lekernel>
well, I finally got it to work, with a multi-line gstreamer command ...
<roh>
;)
<roh>
yeah. but in the end it IS kinda lots of details neccessary
<lekernel>
now I understand a bit better why so many artists have Macs :-)
<roh>
that doesnt help much ;) believe me.. i work in a house full of artists
<lekernel>
at least connecting a TV card and capturing a video file (including synchronized audio) works out of the box, no?
<lekernel>
without kilometer-long commands, GUI programs crashing, etc.
<roh>
no.
<roh>
only if you buy a expensive 'made for mac' product. which is like .. ever 100st tv grabber
<roh>
so basically you buy more support upfront (if you get it or not) .. the products IS more expensive than the 99 other grabbes which work with win32 and linux
<roh>
eh are
<lekernel>
you have to take into account your time investment, I have wasted some 3 hours already on this
<roh>
lekernel: also.. mac products only do ONE usecase.
<roh>
if you try something else you are completely on your own, like on win32 or linux.
<roh>
my guess is: you try somthing where there is no mac product
<roh>
after all.. who does videocapturing nowadays? its all digital or has hw compressors
<roh>
only geeks and professionals (who know what they are doing and use professional equipment)
<lekernel>
I wouldn't expect a DV/Firewire camera to work any better on Linux :-)
<roh>
heh.. you would be surprised
<roh>
i tried getting one to work with some win32 tool from adobe once... didnt work
<lekernel>
the mess I've been through is mostly because of userspace bugs and shortcomings
<roh>
plugged it into a linux pc and installed kino, klicked 'connect' and i could remore control and copy stuff of the tape and back like i wished immediately
<roh>
sure.. there are expensive mac tools i guess who do that. but i dont have them, i dont want to pay for them and i for sure do not want to select tools by vendors ideologic noncompatibilites anymore.
<roh>
lekernel: heh. did you write up which ones? blog about such stuff (in a constructive manner).. or write up bugreports. atleast we can help make it better
<mwalle>
lekernel: will the dvi out use the IOs which are currently available at the expansion headers?
<lekernel>
mwalle, probably not, we need those special I/Os that support TMDS and they're on a different bank IIRC
<mwalle>
TMDS? differential ios?
<lekernel>
yes
<lekernel>
for DVI-D
<mwalle>
i guess they are unrouted on rc0 :)
<lekernel>
they're unrouted on all boards
<roh>
nice. sure you can use them without line drivers?
<lekernel>
roh, seems so
<roh>
we should do some tests to make sure before rc4
<lekernel>
seems pretty difficult as those pins are buried under the BGA :)
<roh>
in the end... people connect really long cables with a lot of capacitive load to that
<lekernel>
we'll just check datasheets
<roh>
hm.. do you have a spartan develboard which has them routed?
<lekernel>
no
<roh>
do you know of one? maybe i can borrow the right board
<lekernel>
I don't even have any screen that supports DVI or HDMI
<stekern>
roh: I've got a (spartan6) devboard with and without line drivers, a guy with a similar board did some tests comparing them, he didn't notice any big difference
<lekernel>
there you go :) thanks stekern
<lekernel>
stekern, got the schematics of the devboard without the line drivers?
<lekernel>
so this board has two HDMI outputs, one with line driver and one without?
<roh>
i was just a bit cautious... i lost multiple graphicscards to bad drivers
<lekernel>
drivers?
<roh>
some ati, basically all matrox cards
<lekernel>
you mean the driver inside the graphics card got damaged?
<roh>
line drivers on dvi get worse over time and fail/limit bandwith
<roh>
inside the asic
<stekern>
actually, I think it has three, 2 with line drivers and one without. But I might remember wrong
<lekernel>
stekern, there's one input too
<stekern>
I've only tested the output with driver
<roh>
it starts slow with 'no 1920x1600 on high refresh anymore' .. and in the end you can drive vga through 20cm of cable but it fails to sync on 120cm
<lekernel>
mh, actually the unbuffered one is called "PMODA"... what's that?
<stekern>
ah, yeah, that's how it was 2 line in and 2 line out
<stekern>
PMODA is digilents extension "standard", there is a hdmi connector in parallell with that