<wpwrak> hmm, i wonder if M1, when connected with a USB-to-MIDI cable to a Linux PC, can talk to a USB-MIDI controller
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: i hope yes, MIDI is actually an uart core re-used to work at 31250
<wpwrak> heh :)
<wpwrak> i basically wonder if there's anything in the protocol that would prevent the pc from picking up MIDI messages from the USB-MIDI-only controller and forwarding them to the M1
<xiangfu> wpwrak, I think there is a progream called jack(Qjackctl) can do that.
<xiangfu> wpwrak, it can connect two physical midi(both have to connect to PC :) , or connect a virtual midi to physical midi
<wpwrak> ah, evil jack strikes again :) okay, if it's possible, there must be a decent way to do it then :)
<wpwrak> sounds perfect. thanks !
<wpwrak> oh, and i even have it installed :)
<xiangfu> wpwrak, you may also like 'VMPK'
<wpwrak> yeah, i know that one
<xiangfu> I have use VMPK with m1.
<wpwrak> but i'm looking for real controls, with shifters and knobs
<xiangfu> when there is a MIDI message from m1 to my PC. the VMPK keys pressed (react)
<xiangfu> wpwrak, oh.
<wpwrak> the korg nanoKONTROL2 doesn't look to bad. lots of controls. mechanical quality apparently isn't great, but it's unbeatably cheap
<kristianpaul> xiangfu: what's the way to get the last stable "image" for M1 ?
<xiangfu> kristianpaul, reflash_m1.sh --release :)
<xiangfu> downloads it from
<kristianpaul> ah easy :)
<kristianpaul> why i remenber longs procedures when early rc3 run ..
<wpwrak> actually, when i did just --release, it had problems. when i added the date, it worked, though. maybe i had an incomplete cache and it didn't notice, or such
<wpwrak> (or maybe i should just update the script. i still use the version with the bad locking :)
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: in the future, you will just have to look at your m1 and *think* U P D A T E (think slowly a bit), then it will understand you and update itself.
<wolfspraul> we are working on this groundbreaking technology leap
<kristianpaul> ha
<kristianpaul> morning wolfspraul :-)
<wolfspraul> in the secret Qi labs though
<wolfspraul> underground
<wolfspraul> lots of access control, retina checks, etc.
<kristianpaul> who needs that?
<wpwrak> nobody will
<wpwrak> because the version after will anticipate the wish and update itself even before you think of it :)
<kristianpaul> xD
<wpwrak> no we know why wolfgang is often so silent lately. it now takes him a lot of time to go to work. first the security checks and then the endless elevator ride to the deep subterranean bunker
<wpwrak> s/\<no\>/now/
<kristianpaul> ;-)
<wpwrak> hmm, i wonder how many analog controls (shifters, knobs) would be useful. certainly video brightness, audio sensitivity, but what else ? sensitivity per frequency band ? maybe some decay functions ? effect color/speed/... ? other parameters ?
<aw> (19pcs to be fixed) back to fix rc3 remaining boards again, all others are packed done
<xiangfu> aw, cool
<aw> i roughly classify them into: 1) midi - 0x46, 0x7d  2) nor - 0x55, 0x67, 0x6d, 0x6f, 0x77 3) short - 0x31, 0x57, 0x59, 0x5d, 0x62, 0x74 4) no bootup - 0x32, 0x36, 0x70 5) video i2c - 0x4d 6) vga - 0x44 7) dimly lit 0x3a
<wolfspraul> wait
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> how many are 100% good by now?
<wolfspraul> if 19 to be fixed, that means the other 71 are all good?
<aw> yes, 71 pcs are all good
<wolfspraul> we shipped out about 40 or so by now, so currently have about 30 in stock
<wolfspraul> stock = ready to be sold
<wpwrak> how is the sell rate evolving ?
<wolfspraul> how about the second rc2 unit we bought back?
<wolfspraul> you are impatient :-)
<aw> they(remaining boards) are probably weird to fix, but it's good to discover them again to dig into.
<wolfspraul> there is no rush or flood of orders, it's more a matter of finding them one by one
<wolfspraul> oh I think some of those 19 should definitely come out good in the end, no?
<aw> that second rc2 I didn't include it.
<wolfspraul> of course have to start to work on them one by one
<wpwrak> (no rush) naw, what i mean is what the current tendency looks like. if there's a tendency :)
<wolfspraul> I think the goal now is to group those 19 boards into three categories:
<wolfspraul> CATEGORY 1: make 100% good boards ready to sell
<wolfspraul> CATEGORY 2: learn something from a board for rc4, to improve yield in rc4
<wpwrak> btw, for marketing, one possibility would be to partner with companies that make complementary elements. recommend them, say, for MIDI controllers. and they in turn list M1 has compatible. spread the word slowly :)
<wolfspraul> CATEGORY 3: neither be able to sell, nor learn for rc4, but we just write off a board as 'victim of rc3 process, unknown reason'
<wpwrak> (trouble boards) yeah, we still have those with freak NOR panic attacks :)
<aw> i do really want to find a tendency existed there especially on manufacturing side like footprint size or else like my reworks reasons caused by our previous approaches. :-)
<wolfspraul> yes sure
<wolfspraul> aw: did you see those 3 categories?
<wolfspraul> I think in the end each board should fall into exactly one of them
<wolfspraul> #1 sell #2 cannot sell but we learnt something for rc4 #3 cannot sell or learn, just victim of rc3 difficulties
<wolfspraul> it would be great if #3 is as small as possible
<wolfspraul> that's the highest priority for me
<aw> mm...the most important is CATEGORY 3
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> ideally it's empty
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> if we have some boards in category 2, fine by me. learning is important, and we will see the rewards in rc4
<wolfspraul> if we can get some more into cat1, even better
<wolfspraul> but 71/90 now is not bad, considering how much we learnt with rc3
<wolfspraul> the original goal was 80 :-)
<aw> wpwrak, about your latest email on NOR which is great. do you think the previous reworks from mine on NOR chip will damaged it?
<aw> although I've still not replaced any of them. ;-)
<wolfspraul> aw: ok it seems we agree on priorities and next steps
<wolfspraul> great
<wolfspraul> then happy hacking, happy fixing, happy learning :-)
<kristianpaul> hum what delay between middle button and my monitor to show something..i tought something went bad but seems not :)
<wolfspraul> this is good stuff you work on now, very important for Milkymist
<wolfspraul> maybe after another week or so we have more clarity about the 19 already
<wpwrak> (NOR rework) you mean you're planning to replace NOR chips ? don't know how risky that it. in general, they're difficult but not impossible to solder. the main problem is that there are tall components around the chip, so it's sometimes difficult to get the soldering iron in
<wolfspraul> adam can also group-collect some boards and have them all reworked at once at the smt fab
<wpwrak> ... and spend the next three weeks wondering what exactly they have done :)
<wpwrak> i.e., i think the number are too small for such exercises
<wpwrak> e.g., only very few will have NOR-related problems at all
<aw> yes, for smt fab. I can push them to take x-ray if I do really have no idea on group-collect boards later.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (markting: partners) e.g., this guy seems to make nice MIDI controllers: http://www.faderfox.de/ low volume etc., but how product announcements make it even to news portals in argentina
<aw> wpwrak, yup..from your series emails on NOR, it should have very few NOR-related problems. I do hope they are related to the reasons from manufacturing processes caused. but surely don't know yet.
<wpwrak> those freak NOR problems may just be fried FPGAs. maybe ESD. maybe overheating.
<kristianpaul> ha rss wall is so cool, it just showed somethin from gbraad ;)
<wolfspraul> can we get picture support via rss somehow?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: e.g., this one may look sexy on the M1: http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=239
<wpwrak> (alas, doesn't seem to be available around here)
<kristianpaul> who got what sebastien wrote in that unboxing video when creating a patch?..
<kristianpaul> ah rss wall should support multiples lines !
<kristianpaul> jfdi
<kristianpaul> argh, second time i press that Go! button i cant stop it, is there a way?
<kristianpaul> that quick find in the patch editor is VERY wellcome btw :-)
<kristianpaul> (patch editor), if i'm at the botton of the patch i cant go top if not with scroll it seems
<kristianpaul> plan9 (acme) people will like this ;)
<kristianpaul> tomorrow finish slides ..
<kristianpaul> and i need a portabl osc client..
<kristianpaul> will be cool also send mesages to the wall using osc..
<kristianpaul> and load animated gif ;) and ... and....
<kristianpaul> nite
<wpwrak> 3D videos ! ;-)
<johnnyhah> lekernel,is there a open source tool like xilinx netgen?
<lekernel> no
<wpwrak> lekernel: imagine ... you're going for a walk at the beach ...
<wpwrak> ... there, you find a bottle that's been washed ashore. it's corked. curious, you pick it up and pull the stopper. a djinn emerges and, for freeing him, grants you three wishes.
<wpwrak> of course, you immediately think of M1. and you ask the djinn for the perfect MIDI controller to go along with M1. what controls would this controller have ?
<lekernel> well, it would definitely make sense to have things like joysticks (to control the motion of the effect) and various faders/knobs
<lekernel> plus buttons to switch patches
<wpwrak> also force-sensing buttons ? like the arrays, typically 4 x 4, on those drum controllers
<wpwrak> joysticks (X/Y) would be much better than sliders/knobs ? i.e., there are many settings that you really think of as two-dimensional ?
<wpwrak> would there be other things, besides switching patches, buttons could presently be used for ?
<lekernel> 2D: displacement, zoom/stretching, rotation center, ...
<wpwrak> ah, lots of joysticks !
<lekernel> buttons: also switching images (when we have them)
<wpwrak> would sliders be just passive or, besides coolness, would it add anything if they were motorized ?
<lekernel> passive I'd say
<wpwrak> seems that DMX controllers are closer to what you're describing than MIDI controllers. quite a lot of DMX controllers have a joystick, while only a few MIDI controller have X/Y input, mainly korg with their touch pads
<wpwrak> something like this would be close (mechanically), no ? http://acme.com.cn/en/DC_ProductDetails.aspx?Pid=436
<wpwrak> alas, it's only MIDI IN, not out
<wpwrak> how many controls of each kind would the ideal controller have ? i guess 2 joysticks would be sufficient, since you'd run out of hands (of course, you still have two wishes from your djinn, so additional hands would be an option ...)
<wpwrak> would joysticks be the kind that stays in the last position or would they return to the middle position when you release them ?
<wpwrak> lekernel: can a DMX controller (using DMX) be used to manage patches ? i don't know DMX ... i see a lot of things about scene settings and such, so i'd imagine hitting a button on a controller would result in a lot of commands being sent to individual lights
<wpwrak> but maybe there is more individual control, too ?
<lekernel> it's just a protocol that sends channel/value pairs
<lekernel> I don't think there are many "button" controls
<wpwrak> (button controls) you mean in patches ?
<wpwrak> here's a nice DMX controller: "However, to upload a fixture profile into Magic-260, you will need to purchase our proprietary USB Memory stick, model "USB MEM STICK", or our proprietary data link cable". apple would be so proud ;-)
<lekernel> maybe they just gave up on the pain of getting regular USB sticks to work
<wpwrak> ;-))
<wpwrak> maybe i can cut the chase short - what kind of controller did you choose ? and are you happy with it ?
<wpwrak> so far, the only controller with more than one XY element i've been able to find is the faderfox LV3. that one has 2 joysticks. also looks very nice and compact. alas, USB-MIDI only. there's a predecessor that also has legacy MIDI, but only one joystick.
<lekernel> it has noticeable response time
<wpwrak> aah, so you're already using a DMX controller for input. and not MIDI. i see.
<wpwrak> btw, i'm surprised how inexpensive the DMX controllers are compared to MIDI. you seem to get a lot more sliders and buttons for your money with DMX than with MIDI. maybe it's because there are a number of "generic brands" eroding the prices. haven't seen any MIDI clones (at least not here)
<wpwrak> ah, and an I/O question: do you think the FPGA hardware would be able to implement high-speed USB ? or is that too fast ?
<wpwrak> (controller) how many of the sliders do you normally use ? you probably have audio sensitivity, video brightness and/or contrast, zoom rate, maybe zoom center (1-2 slider), or rotation center (1-2 slider), anything else ?
<riaanvddool> hi, i was thinking that the input video channel could be used to influence the warp field
<riaanvddool> has anyone done something like this?
<lekernel> nope. this shouldn't be too hard to implement in flickernoise, though
<lekernel> what's your experience with C programming?
<riaanvddool> its what i do for a living
<lekernel> cool
<riaanvddool> what would be cool is if you move your hand on the video, it controls the warp
<lekernel> so one possible solution would be to read the pixel at some coordinates in the video input and feed it through patch variables
<riaanvddool> i dont have a dev kit yet though
<lekernel> then you can map it to warp using per_frame equations
<riaanvddool> cool
<riaanvddool> i have been foloowing the project for some time now, it is good to see how far it has come
<lekernel> wpwrak, high speed USB should be doable, the S6 can switch I/Os at up to ~1GHz when you use a serdes. it's quite some work though.
<lekernel> also for RX, you need some non-trivial solution for clock recovery
<wpwrak> lekernel: great ! that's better than i expected
<lekernel> well now the problem is I don't know anyone who'd develop such a thing
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: effects reacting to video would be very very cool to have :)
<wpwrak> "not impossible" is already a great step forward from "no way" :)
<wpwrak> lekernel: so ... how do you make your DMX controller send individual inputs to the M1 ? do you assign basic light profiles to all the controls and then put the controller it in its "scene learn" mode, so that all the inputs are propagated ?
<wpwrak> i suppose there's then a bank of dedicated scene/show selection buttons that would be unusable ?
<wpwrak> is this roughly how it works ?
<riaanvddool> "only needs to sell 80 to be viable " - i am interested to learn how well the units are selling.
<riaanvddool> would love to be involved somehow, maybe organizing local manufacturing in south africa
<wpwrak> riaanvddool: that 80 units things was a bit of a misunderstanding :) maybe if they were priced at USD 5000 each ;-) 80 units is what qi-hw has produced in the last run. and they'll make more soon
<riaanvddool> :)
<riaanvddool> so more like 800 units to break even?
<lekernel> local manufacturing in south africa sounds interesting
<lekernel> what kind of electronics industry do you have there, already?
<lekernel> riaanvddool, it's difficult to give a volume at which we "break even"... it also depends on what you count as expenses (like developer time for example)
<wpwrak> yeah, about 800 units to break even would sound better. i don't know the exact numbers, though.
<lekernel> if you run things like sloccount on the milkymist code base, you'll probably get a very high price the current sales are nowhere near of
<wpwrak> lekernel: did i get the basic DMX-as-M1-controller workflow right ?
<lekernel> wpwrak, yes, though you can use either MIDI controllers or DMX in almost the same way, and even both at the same time
<riaanvddool> ok
<lekernel> the M1 also supports DMX output to control projectors, lasers, smoke machines, etc. from patches
<riaanvddool> Tellumat Electronic Manufacturings total throughput for just one of its customers currently exceeds 40,000 printed circuit boards (PCB) per month, giving the South African market a cost-effective, quality, high-capacity alternative to cheap mass production in the Far East.
<wpwrak> lekernel: perfect, thanks ! then i think i know how to get that joystick :)
<lekernel> yeah, sounds like they could build M1s
<riaanvddool> cool
<lekernel> have you looked at some numbers already? usually, to make electronics cheap you need high volumes, which favors a single big manufacturer
<lekernel> you could easily become a M1 distributor to start with :-)
<riaanvddool> how do i do that and what is involved?
<lekernel> (don't get me wrong, I like your idea of local south africa manufacturing. I'm just pointing out some facts.)
<riaanvddool> yeah, sure. i realize commiting to a production run needs orders in hard and huge commitment
<riaanvddool> if becoming a local M1 distributer would help, i would like to volunteer :)
<lekernel> well, at least this would enable you to see if you can sell M1s in South Africa and how many
<lekernel> before you commit to production batches yourself
<riaanvddool> yes
<lekernel> have you done some electronics production in the past? or run a shop?
<riaanvddool> i don't have a website, as i am in full-time employment
<riaanvddool> yes, i have
<riaanvddool> electronic engineer by training and had a business that built industrial cameras
<wolfspraul> riaanvddool: you are definitely in the right place :-)
<lekernel> ok, cool :)
<wolfspraul> we love to share designs and make them manufacturable for everyone
<wolfspraul> although if you did actual runs before, you understand the costs and complications well
<wolfspraul> so even though we publish everything, really everything 100% what we learn, it's still a lot to copy, or make an improved or localized or customized product
<riaanvddool> cool, but would like to distribute first to get the experience with the product
<wolfspraul> oh for sure
<wolfspraul> you bet :-)
<wolfspraul> you need to try the product first to even understand whether it has potential!
<wolfspraul> and in what (realistic) timeframe
<wolfspraul> have you seen Sebastien's unboxing video?
<riaanvddool> yes, watched it today
<riaanvddool> I am quite familiar with the original Milkdrop
<riaanvddool> so know the concept
<riaanvddool> even  though it is different
<wolfspraul> btw, since you have experience with industrial cameras
<riaanvddool> i have actually VJ'ed once with milkdrop :)
<wolfspraul> we include a simple little analog ccd camera with M1
<wolfspraul> Sony 1/3'' ccd censor, some electronics, then an analog composite video signal out
<riaanvddool> my industrial cameras where also sony ccd based
<wolfspraul> I was wondering whether there is a similar cheap little camera but with a sensor that can capture infrared and potentially serve the data needed for thermographic pictures?
<riaanvddool> i can check
<riaanvddool> what resolution?
<lekernel> PAL
<wolfspraul> I asked our camera supplier and got a huge list of links and companies back, but no time yet to dig deeper
<wolfspraul> that was all pointing to police equipment and what not
<riaanvddool> modern mouse cameras are also quite interesting, but will have to check the resolution
<wolfspraul> but I want to keep it very simple, I just need a sensor that can capture the infrared spectrum, I guess :-) (maybe my thinking is wrong somewhere)
<riaanvddool> some sony ccds can do infrared by design
<lekernel> I think all/most sensors can capture the infrared sensor, you just need to remove the IR filter
<riaanvddool> just filter out the visible spectrum and there you go
<lekernel> s/the infrared sensor/the infrared spectrum/
<riaanvddool> yes
<riaanvddool> what sony ccd do you use?
<wolfspraul> lekernel: that was my idea too, but so far I haven't found confirmation that it's really that easy :-)
<wolfspraul> this came up when we had this idea of a camera to point at an m1 board in testing to find hot spots
<wolfspraul> don't know exactly which part number, would need to look it up or dig out from pics
<wolfspraul> we haven't fully documented the camera yet, since it's an external part and we just see the composite video signal coming into m1...
<lekernel> find hot spots? why do you care?
<lekernel> we don't have any overheating-related problem, do we?
<wolfspraul> I don't want to get deep into ccd cameras either, I think in the few years it will all be cmos or this new reversed cmos stuff
<wolfspraul> it was for testing
<wolfspraul> I just explain where the thinking came from (for a thermographic cam)
<wolfspraul> anecdotally the only heat I know of is from the jtag-serial daughterboard
<riaanvddool> i was thinking you wanted to do cool visualizations lol
<wolfspraul> but we have no systematic temperature data
<lekernel> are you sure it's not from the power supply?
<wolfspraul> ok we are diverting now. I just used the chance of riaanvddool saying he worked on industrial cams before
<lekernel> it certainly does get hot, it's based mostly on (foolproof) linear regulators
<wolfspraul> that reminded me of my one open item I still have with the camera
<riaanvddool> btw, for thermal range the ccds might not work. thermal is quite far into the IR side
<riaanvddool> so how do i become a local distributer?
<riaanvddool> can i give you my details and have it on the website?
<riaanvddool> I have a trading name: "Lightwell"
<riaanvddool> or "ProDigital"
<wolfspraul> riaanvddool: email sales@sharism.cc
<wolfspraul> out for the day... cya
<riaanvddool> maybe rather user ProDigital, cause I want to use Lightwell for something else
<riaanvddool> ok
<lekernel> (website) if you sell M1s, yes of course :)
<lekernel> cc sebastien @ milkymist.org
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, there's "near IR" and "far IR". the latter is what these really expensive thermoimagining devices "see". but that's not what a camera designed for human-visible light will be any good at detecting
<wpwrak> lekernel: btw, how do you like the "milkymist as a standalone box that just looks good doing what it does without human intervention" marketing meme ? the more i think of it, the less it makes sense to me :)
<lekernel> that's only one of the point
<lekernel> s
<wpwrak> and another btw, CE0 rework doesn't seem to accomplish much. i currently see a "20% better than before" pattern, but i had that after WE# rework, too, and with more samples, it just went away
<wpwrak> (marketing) yes, of course. but i think it may set the wrong expectations. first, vjs who fully expect to have to work to get something out of the box may dismiss it as a toy because they'll know that it's not _that_ easy
<wpwrak> worse yet, people who believe that marketing message will look at M1 running on its own and be disappointed by the result (the "my screensaver can do that" reaction)
<wpwrak> also, people who really are happy with this sort of boring performance may realize that a cheap netbook will be more than sufficient for this, and they can still use their oh so familiar windows :)
<riaanvddool> that was me, yes. seems to be broken in the archive
<lekernel> yeah, that's why I always say they should connect the camera
<lekernel> unfortunately the message doesn't always get through
<lekernel> so I'm improving communication with instructions, diagram, and more recently demo video
<wpwrak> furthermore, having that marketing message around may also make people advertize the M1 inefficiently. e.g., someone who likes the M1 for other reasons may think to actually show it doing boring stuff, expecting people to be thrilled anyway
<riaanvddool> how about using the VJ angle?
<wpwrak> and it even crept into the brochure - the manga girl has a camera man but no vj :)
<riaanvddool> as in: VJ in a box, or automated VJ
<wpwrak> i think it's just not the "automated VJ" :)
<riaanvddool> ok
<lekernel> no and VJs actually do not like the "automated VJ" :) some even told me I was going to ruin their job, lol!
<riaanvddool> amazing what one can do with maths
<wpwrak> it's a tool for VJs to do their work. and it'll try to look not like a total disaster if the VJ has a quick chat with his groupies, but it won't replace the VJ for long
<wpwrak> hehe ;-)) there's a lot of precedent for such resentment :)
<wpwrak> the camera helps, also because a lot of effects depend on it. so you get either effects that actually work (old firmware) or more effects (new firmware)
<wpwrak> but you still need to tune the audio sensitivity, maybe track the center of the effect or move the camera
<lekernel> riaanvddool, how do you plan to sell M1s? online shop? local physical shop? through contacts...?
<wpwrak> maybe with time, M1 could learn to do some of these things. e.g., by tracking motion patterns to find the center on its own. likewise for detecting the "right" patterns in audio. all that is probably quite hard.
<riaanvddool> i have recently bought a Optima LED projector
<riaanvddool> planning to approach some local clubs and demo the concept to them
<riaanvddool> using Milkdrop to create the visuals for now
<riaanvddool> then when I get orders hopefully buy some M1s
<riaanvddool> but would be nice to have my name on the website, so if local people find the website i can be a source of information
<kristianpaul> led projectors are cheap and portable?
<riaanvddool> wpwrak: i think if M1 could match the visuals with the 'mood' of the music it would be great
<riaanvddool> kristianpaul: under $200 and very portable
<lekernel> well...we got 67 visitors from South Africa last month according to google analytics
<lekernel> counting yours
<riaanvddool> cool
<riaanvddool> it has a battery and flash disk space, so ideal for demo
<riaanvddool> can carry it in my hand and place on counter, pointing up and play back recorder video clip
<riaanvddool> it even produces sound, although somewhat high pitched
<riaanvddool> ok, im going offline
<kristianpaul> bye
<kristianpaul> lekernel: :)
<wpwrak> nice :)
<wpwrak> inexpensive, plenty of knobs/sliders, lacks legacy MIDI but okay, one battle at a time. and it has a JOYSTICK !
<wpwrak> and then, in the manual: "This joystick works as a mouse pad on your notebook computer." :-(((
<lekernel> we could map mouse devices to patch variables in FN
<lekernel> as a bonus, you could use a mouse too, not only weird "MIDI" controllers
<lekernel> what is most worrying is this USB "composite" device, probably a lot of overengineering and pain
<wpwrak> i think there are two approaches: the composite device and just multiple interfaces
<wpwrak> remember my little wireless keyboard ?
<lekernel> or integrated hub
<lekernel> all three are a bunch of crap
<wpwrak> ah yes, 3rd option :)
<lekernel> yeah why make it simple
<wpwrak> well, multiple interfaces doesn't sound too hostile
<lekernel> we are in USB land here
<lekernel> home of Rube Goldberg machines
<wpwrak> ah, and how many knob/slider controls do you envision one would need if making maxmimum use of the M1 ? (assuming anything XY in nature is already taken care of somehow)
<kristianpaul> lekernel: where do you sourced price for that artix-7?
<lekernel> I'm just guessing
<lekernel> having it more expensive than the 6slx45 wouldn't be like what xilinx has done so far
<kristianpaul> hopefully :)
<lekernel> nah I'm pretty confident about that
<kristianpaul> in the worst case i hope dont look in toon spartan3 isnt?:)
<kristianpaul> btw i saw that papillio board project for your tdc, nice :)
<lekernel> spartan 3 is dead
<lekernel> it's not a TDC, it's just that the TDC demo project was an easy starting point to get LM32 on the papillio
<wpwrak> lekernel: number of controls: did you find the 10 sliders sufficient for your patch control needs ? would you worry about needing more soon ?
<lekernel> is that NOR really $10?
<lekernel> that's horribly expensive
<lekernel> I remember Wolfgang telling me it was much cheaper
<lekernel> unless they made some sourcing mistake
<wpwrak> that's what it costs at digi-key. may be a bit cheaper in china
<wpwrak> hmm, the inventory is cryptic: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory
<wpwrak> lists a price but doesn't show for what quantity
<wpwrak> your FPGA is still more expensive, though :) if the quantities are the same, thrice the price
<wpwrak> meaning that you probably can't make it USD 99
<wpwrak> but then, if you drop a lot of features anyway, a smaller FPGA will probably do nicely
<wpwrak> ah, an alternative to serial flash may be a microcontroller that takes over the uSD card and moves the data into the FPGA. in case xilinx are following recent trends in how SoCs boot, they may even have added native MMC boot :)
<roh> that would be nice
<roh> still.. serial flash is popular. just had a device with 4mb of it on the table. with 32mb ram
<lekernel> ideally we have none of those pesky memory cards at all
<wpwrak> memory cards are good for you :)
<roh> boots a full linux from there (32bit mips 400mhz wifi router).. so if one can cache the flash in ram if may be not the worst idea to go serial flash/mmc and cache in ram
<wpwrak> plenty of storage, nice and simple protocol (compared to USB ;-), and it's removable
<roh> ram is cheap compared to flash/flash with many pins
<wpwrak> removable = all the unbricking/restoring/recovery business happens _outside_ your box. i.e., not really your problem anymore :)
<wpwrak> lekernel: so .. happy with those 8 sliders ? need more ?
<wpwrak> i found this DMX controller: http://www.abbatrading.com/site/detalle/?idProducto=322
<wpwrak> ten sliders, at least ten usable buttons, JOYSTICK ! and it's some dirt-cheap china clone
<wpwrak> sells here for less than USD 100 per kilo. still a few times more expensive than the best meat, but we're getting there ;-)
<lekernel> the flash is already cached in SDRAM on the M1
<lekernel> you can even compress the image, but decompression makes booting slow (at least with LZMA, I have not tried others)
<lekernel> wpwrak, 8 sliders looks OK...
<lekernel> iirc that's how many variables are supported in the patches atm anyway
<wpwrak> kewl. thanks ! time to go shopping then :)
<wpwrak> ah, do i have to close the DMX loop ? or just controller -> M1 ?
<lekernel> just controller -> M1
<lekernel> the M1 has integrated DMX terminations
<lekernel> and a repeater
<wpwrak> excellent. thanks !
<roh> wpwrak: dmx is easy. basically its a rs485 bus with termination
<roh> it has 512 addresses which all have 1 8bit value
<roh> so its 'startcond. -> 512 8bit values... endcond.
<kristianpaul> lekernel: sure i knew it about tdc, i was just about to comment you mixing vhdl with verilog or moving to vhdl soc :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: afortunatly most recent computer have mmc and boot from it,so is not bad path tought :)
<wpwrak> hmm, i found the manual for that DMX controller and i like it a lot less after reading how it works. seems that the only thing you can really use are the faders and the joystick. all the rest is for organizing the controller's program, which is useless for the intended purpose. i.e., none of the buttons would do anything useful and two of the ten sliders would also control "hardwired" functions that are useless. so i think i'm back to lo
<wpwrak> oking at MIDI again.
<wpwrak> plan B would be to get a DMX controller and trying to change the firmware. after all, the mechanical elements are there. but that seems a bit chancy.
<mwalle> lekernel: nice article in xcell, although its a little xilinx centric ;)
<mwalle> can the artix series be configured from an spi flash?
<mwalle> xilinx cites "Spartan-6 FPGAs are the industrys first and only FPGA that provides direct open configuration memory interface."
<mwalle> remembers platform flash (and compatible third party flashes) to be very expensive
<lekernel> hm? I think so, it worked for some spartan 3's (iirc)
<kristianpaul> mwalle: cheers to the DMCs !:)
<wolfspraul> yes the NOR chip is around 10-12 USD or so, without 'sourcing mistake'
<wolfspraul> and it always was, and digikey is a good initial check for the price of an unknown chip
<wolfspraul> (or octopart)
<wolfspraul> 10.50 USD to be precise. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM
<kristianpaul> DCMs***
<wolfspraul> you can go to that wiki page, and click on "Usage Price" to get the table sorted by most/least expensive
<mwalle> kristianpaul: dcms?
<wpwrak> may get his victory over a flash chip yet ;-)
<wpwrak> so far, i've actually even been guilty for adding one to a design. luckily, in a very conservative configuration, so that one acted up only a little
<wpwrak> lekernel: hah, found the generic DMX also at your shop: http://www.sonovente.com/mac-mah-control-12-scan-controleurs-dmx-p16054.htm
<kristianpaul> mwalle: xcell p 32
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: regarding marketing, what do you think of approaching heise about getting more than just an entry in the newsticker ?
<wolfspraul> gotta run, but I would not touch the nor chip now
<wolfspraul> fix the corruption bug, leave it alone
<wolfspraul> not a single anybody has given feedback that the nor chip causes any problems
<wolfspraul> what we hear is 'still pictures'
<wolfspraul> usb midi
<wolfspraul> and more
<wpwrak> oh, all this is about the "minimist", not about M1rc4/5/6/7/8/...
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> bbiab
<wolfspraul> oh sure, I'm not against it at all, especially if it makes the platform more portable etc. but it's A LOT of work
<wolfspraul> artix-7 also comes to mind then
<wolfspraul> bbl
<wpwrak> lekernel: so ... about that DMX. what you have is a variant of the device i had in mind. you say that you're not too happy with its response time. so that already speaks a bit against it. from reading the manual, i suspect that the buttons can't be used for, say, switching patches. that is, unless you assign a whole channel (with fader) to it. is this correct, or did i miss anythhing ?