<sb0>
unimportant detail, focus on publicity first
<sb0>
which includes communication, e.g. better videos
<wolfspraul>
do you see any problem if M1 would boot directly to rendering, bypassing the standby state?
<sb0>
getting the sw poweroff to work again might be a bit messy
<wpwrak>
death of the standby state on connecting power would have my blessing ;-)
<wolfspraul>
then for simplicity (if it's difficult), I would just remove sw poweroff entirely
<wpwrak>
(sw power off) start in FN, stop the clocks (or as many as you can), and make the middle button trigger a reconfiguration ?
<wolfspraul>
the standby state needs about 2W?
<wolfspraul>
standby needs 2W, full operation 5W
<wolfspraul>
so standby needs 40% of full operation
<wpwrak>
pretty hungry for a standby
<sb0>
I don't know, and it's maybe possible to optimize further
<wolfspraul>
I don't think standby is optimized for power consumption
<wolfspraul>
I think it's better to remove that state altogether.
<sb0>
no, it's optimized for minimal development time to make this project feasible at all
<wolfspraul>
yes. but I think we can remove it, well, I am trying to think through the downsides.
<wolfspraul>
the only downside I can see is that if M1 is in a fixed location somewhere, and there is a loss of power, it will end up consuming 5W instead of 2W when power comes back
<sb0>
then how do we 1. boot in rescue 2. make sure the YAFFS write cache is flushed when power is cut ?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: funny that you notice now that it's inconvenient. what happened ? :)
<wolfspraul>
but you could make the same argument that after a power loss it should come back to its old state
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I'm just thinking about the product, one by one. And this realization has emerged recently :-)
<wpwrak>
sb0: (boot in rescue) you can still sample the buttons. so boot-to-rescue becomes connect power while pressing a button
<wolfspraul>
those little things are easily dismissed because there are so many, but then some may be significant to regular users. I believe this one is.
<wpwrak>
sb0: (or force a sw reboot while holding the button)
<wpwrak>
yes, i think the standby is confusing. also because there's no clearly marked big "power" button. of course, it's something you learn but i wouldn't want to man the support hotline when the next batch of a million M1 ships ;-)
<wpwrak>
ah, and how do people normally adjust the audio sensitivity ? is this on the remote control ? (i don't have one)
<wpwrak>
last night, i was demoing my M1 to miriam and rafa, and it was really awkward to turn the audio volume all the way up or down to get proper effects while balancing this on the TV, so that the music would stay in the volume that's not too low but also not too high
<wolfspraul>
i can see that [audio sensitivity]
<wolfspraul>
I'm not even there yet, I think there are many small details that can be polished, but that requires real-life use and feedback, which starts now...
<wolfspraul>
I guess the best would be if m1 software could auto-detect the sensitivity? or is that hard? don't know
<wolfspraul>
but for the standby state, I didn't hear any arguments why removing it would be bad, so that's good
<wolfspraul>
maybe removing it is what we should do
<wpwrak>
(auto level) yes, i also thought of that. not sure how good an automated level tracker would work, but it would be worth a try. we need more developers ! ;-)
<wpwrak>
(removing standby) not so quick :) you still want some quiescent state in which is is safe to power down (without NOR corruption). so far, there is weak evidence that the standby state does give us this (and no evidence to the contrary)
<wpwrak>
something else that would be good to have is a video example for each effect, showing what it looks like with properly tuned inputs. some effects change their character dramatically depending on whether you hit or miss the right range (both for the audio level and the video input)
<wolfspraul>
yes I know
<wolfspraul>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
we need to make the sudden removal of DC power 100% safe anyway, that's a separate bugfix
<wolfspraul>
that won't hold me back from removing the standby state if we believe it's a nuisance
<wolfspraul>
of course we can have some software power-off if that makes us feel better, but it's really for us only because users will simply remove the DC jack and done
<wolfspraul>
and if the unit doesn't work anymore (nor corruption), they will either give up ("shit product"), or they will find a technically sophisticated friend to reflash, or they ship it back to some place we arrange for reflashing
<wolfspraul>
there is not much we can do to prevent this sequence of events, short of not selling anything :-)
<wpwrak>
yes, but for m1rc3 devices, we may need this work-around forever
<wolfspraul>
nah that's not how I look at it
<wpwrak>
(reflash) recovery should do the trick, no ?
<wolfspraul>
you mean recovery and then web update/
<wolfspraul>
?
<wolfspraul>
yes, should
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
have you tried that path yet? I still haven't, too many todo items...
<wpwrak>
no, i haven't tried ether at all so far
<wolfspraul>
I just take for granted that it works right now, if we run into such a case we will find out.
<wolfspraul>
I think nor corruption is rare, even for DC jack removal
<wpwrak>
one in 500 if my tests are any indicator :)
<wolfspraul>
even with locking?
<wpwrak>
ah, should be less with that. but i don't trust my data on this yet.
<wolfspraul>
yes I know, so we are on the same page
<wolfspraul>
I think with the locking workaroudn we are in the thousands
<wolfspraul>
that's what Adam's lesser and manually retrieved numbers suggest
<wolfspraul>
so anyway, to me the removal of standby mode and fixing the nor corruption are two separate things
<wolfspraul>
if we believe standby should go, I wouldn't delay that because of the nor corruption
<wolfspraul>
nor is too rare to matter right now
<wpwrak>
(locking) possibly tens of thousands even
<wolfspraul>
and we already have a number of good ideas for rc4 which are being verified, so the absolute number of m1 with nor problem is also constant and small
<wolfspraul>
yes so like I said - no connection to removal of standby imo. plus I think the user will always use the same way to turn off m1 anyway, which is to remove the DC cable.
<wolfspraul>
they are unrelated
<wolfspraul>
Christopher Adams used m1 last night in Taipei, and said people loved it
<wolfspraul>
at some insomnia event or so, need to see whether there are pics
<wpwrak>
(real life use) excellent !
<wolfspraul>
he even bought it and picked up from Adam getting to know him, all great
<wpwrak>
we need more of this :)
<Thihi>
Cool.
<wpwrak>
how much time did he have to familiarize himself with the device ?
<wolfspraul>
I'm thinking how we give m1 buyers a way to better connect/followup with people who see it running and say 'cool'
<wolfspraul>
he saw Sebastien using it in Warsaw
<wolfspraul>
maybe we give them a bunch of stickers?
<wolfspraul>
right now I include 2 in each box
<wolfspraul>
or we say "second unit 30% off" to encourage some kind of group buying?
<wpwrak>
(stickers) maybe make it 5 or ten and put them in an envelope saying "spread the word !". otherwise, people may simply not know what to do with them and throw them away
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: how do you like the idea of giving someone a discount for ordering a second unit?
<wolfspraul>
somehow I like it, but too bad we don't have Steve to think these things through. he's the master :-)
<wolfspraul>
it will bring people and users together, it gives an incentive to spread the word
<wpwrak>
hmm, it would be a quantity discount for group purchases
<wpwrak>
not sure if people would really ask someone else to buy an M1 for them to benefit from those 30%
<wpwrak>
i mean, some will of course. but it may not be a lot. and some may end up pestering M1-owning VJs
<wolfspraul>
sure but that's the idea :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm :)
<wpwrak>
so, with this discount in place, if you buy 2n M1, how much would you pay ? USD n*(500+500*0.7), USD 500+(2n-1)*500*0.7, or USD 500*0.7+(2n-1)*500 ?
<wpwrak>
also, 30% may be too much. it should show appreciation but also not devalue the full-price purchases of others. maybe 20%, giving you a nice USD 400.
<wolfspraul>
my idea was 500+350=850
<wolfspraul>
but it's not really thought through
<Thihi>
I think what wpwrak says makes a lot of sense.
<wolfspraul>
that is often the case :-)
<wolfspraul>
which argument you mean? you mean 20% instead of 30% ?
<wolfspraul>
I will not do any of this right now, just thinking really
<wolfspraul>
as wpwrak pointed out this needs careful consideration about value etc.
<wpwrak>
;-) so it would apply to every other M1 ? as opposed to just the 2nd or all after the first ?
<Thihi>
Well, I think any big discount on a second unit will certainly devalue the full-price purchases.
<wolfspraul>
for a long time, Kellog Cornflakes gave you a free booklet or comic or so when you bought 2 packs of cornflakes instead of 1 :-)
<Thihi>
I'm not sure what percentage fits the bill.
<wolfspraul>
I haven't thought it through for n > 2
<Thihi>
But 30% does seem high.
<Thihi>
Maybe even 15% would be an incentive?
<wolfspraul>
my thinking started with someone using the m1, and people liking it
<wolfspraul>
then what?
<wolfspraul>
right now it stops there
<wolfspraul>
I don't think any of those people liking it will even read about it on the web, let alone buy one
<wolfspraul>
first idea - how readable is the "milkymist.org" text on the top acrylic in a typical use environment?
<wolfspraul>
I don't know
<wolfspraul>
should we point to twitter more? twitter.com/milkymistvj
<wolfspraul>
I can imagine someone who has his smartphone with him maybe to follow milkymistvj right there, i.e. to take his smartphone out and add milkymistvj to his follow list
<wpwrak>
if they don't know about it, they also won't know about the discount :)
<wolfspraul>
wait, one by one
<wolfspraul>
the problem I am trying to fix is how to convert people who see an m1 in action and 'like it' to something more
<wolfspraul>
whatever that is
<wolfspraul>
maybe at least to read about milkymist on the web
<wolfspraul>
to remember the 'milkymist' name
<wolfspraul>
to tell their friends about 'milkymist'
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wpwrak>
include it in the show ? :)
<wolfspraul>
right now it stops there
<wolfspraul>
yes, possible
<wolfspraul>
you mean to just leave 'milkymist' standing somewhere
<wolfspraul>
maybe in a cool design way so it doesn't look too cheap
<wpwrak>
yeah. and make it optional. or have a dedicated patch that shows "milkymist". then vjs can choose whether they will include the advertizement
<wpwrak>
and the could also modify the ad patch, etc. remember the fan "commercials" for gta02 ? would be nice to have that sort of thing
<wolfspraul>
the design of that 'ad' has to be so good that people naturally believe it's part of the performance
<wolfspraul>
(of course it must be easy to disable it still)
<Thihi>
Whatabout a splash effect when you start to use it? A la projectM.
<Thihi>
Like the first thing it shows when you start using it is the milkymist logo (is there one?) with some nice effect for some seconds.
<Thihi>
ALthough I guess that wouldn't work in scenarios where the m1 is turned on first, and then the projector, which I guess is a typical usecase. :/
<wpwrak>
naw, it should show every once in a while
<Thihi>
Yeah, I guess.
<wpwrak>
if you only show it at the beginning, nobody will pay attention.
<Thihi>
Yes.
<wpwrak>
the next time it shows, they'll begin to realize that this may be something worth looking up. and then the next time, they will be ready to actually try to remember.
<wpwrak>
well, unless the pills or the booze already kicked in :)
<Thihi>
No need to remember. They'll just google it with their phones.
<Thihi>
Then they'll order ten while drunk and/or high.
<Thihi>
Then by the 20th time it shows that night, they'll be so pissed at the splash effect, they'll not only cancel the orders, they'll mail you some poo. :/
<wolfspraul>
ok we need small practical steps
<wolfspraul>
embedding any form of Milkymist branding in the default performance is a good idea I think, whatever the easiest way is is good
<wolfspraul>
in the email you wrote "This device is rather an adapter that converts plain MIDI to
<wolfspraul>
MIDI-over-USB, and not the other way around. So it will not work for
<wolfspraul>
---
<wolfspraul>
"MIDI" controllers that only have a USB connection.
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand
<wolfspraul>
you mean it's for midi-out only?
<wolfspraul>
the pictures I see there show a USB connector on one side, and 2 midi connectors (in and out) on the other side
<wolfspraul>
what type of midi controller are you talking about for example?
<sb0>
some MIDI keyboards do not have MIDI, only USB slave
<sb0>
this USB port won't connect to the other USB slave of the device you propose
<wolfspraul>
ah yes, it can only connect to a usb host, notebook I guess typically
<wolfspraul>
maybe there are adapters that can go to a usb slave as well?
<wpwrak>
those would be fairly exotic. but yes, maybe
<sb0>
never heard of those, but maybe
<wpwrak>
it's basically new-to-old vs. old-to-new. e.g., like a USB-to-centronic converter (which do exist) vs. a centronics-to-USB converter (which i have yet to see)
<wpwrak>
in each case, there can of course be very good reasons for staying with the "old"
<sb0>
grmbl. massive Parisian public transport failure, couldn't make it to the studio ...
<sb0>
and wasted almost 2 hours
<wpwrak>
sb0: thunderstorm, like here ? made it to the computer shops and back home unscathed, though :)
<wpwrak>
(studio) that would have been for the high-quality demo videos ?
<sb0>
yes
<sb0>
and no, just the poor general state of the Paris suburbs infrastructure... trains are breaking down all the time here (and they're very slow the rest of the time), it's crazy
<sb0>
it would have taken me about 4 hours to travel 20km, assuming the repairs went as planned
<sb0>
driving isn't an option, everything is crazy congested
<wpwrak>
walking sounds like a viable alternative :) you can probably average > 4 km/h, even in a city :)
<sb0>
it's a serious problem here, no matter whether you drive or take the public transport, you're always fucked
<wpwrak>
so you moved fro mberlin to paris permanently ? or just visiting ?
<sb0>
sure not, I'm leaving tomorrow
<sb0>
this super crappy transport system far exceeds the limits of my patience, and it alone is a reason for me not to live in Paris
<wpwrak>
i don't remember transport in paris is quite so horrible. maybe after having gotten used to buenos aires traffic, everything looks rather calm and orderly :)
<sb0>
it's the worst I know in Europe
<sb0>
well, within Paris it's decent. but the suburbs is awful.
<wpwrak>
ah, i see. i didn't get out of the city much. well, only been there 3-4 times and just for a weekend or so.
<sb0>
basically, I had the choice between waiting >2 hours for trains (and potentially have problems on the way back) or >2 hours in traffic jams  - everything combined with >2 hours lateness at an appointment on a late Friday afternoon, of course
<sb0>
oh well...
<wpwrak>
yeah, not good
<kristianpaul>
bicycles even get fucked?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: don't give sebastien any ideas. we still need him ...
<kristianpaul>
ok ..
<sb0>
bicycles are not very convenient on the remaining 2500km ...
<kristianpaul>
:D
<sb0>
but yes, I should probably get one in Paris anyway ... if I ever come back
<kristianpaul>
rent or something
<wpwrak>
wonders if "or something" may be more the parisian style :)
<wpwrak>
yes ! USB-over-CAT5 link to guest room stablished !
<wpwrak>
now i can check the temperature without opening the door :)
<sb0>
for this incredible flash corruption bug? amazing :)
<kristianpaul>
for dont moving out his chair i bet
<wpwrak>
yeah. resistance is futile :)
<kristianpaul>
18 °C?
<wpwrak>
next, i need to automate the status checking. looking at the LEDs every hour or so isn't so easy if the device is further away. of course, walking half a marathon distance a day may actually be healthy ...
<wpwrak>
that BOOTSTS register looks promising for automated checking, though
<sb0>
btw, I wonder if there could be a register not cleared during reconfiguration that the standby bitstream could check to see if it should boot immediately or wait for middle button
<wpwrak>
sb0: heh, great minds think alike :)
<sb0>
iirc there is a 'bitstream ID' register that can be set with ISE and read back
<wpwrak>
or maybe BOOTSTS could have a hint. it has an "IPROG" flag ...
<sb0>
if I hack the bitstreams to remove the 'write to bitstream ID' command, I could probably use it for this purpose
<sb0>
(assuming there is no hardwired reset of that register triggered during reconf)
<wpwrak>
(flag) that is, according to table 5-48 it doesn't. but page 127 says it does
<wpwrak>
(bitstream id) the usual way to handle such things is some "reset reason" register somewhere. BOOTSTS looks like a promising candidate for this. i'll know soonish :)
<wpwrak>
but first a bit of non-electronics shopping ...
<GitHub151>
[llvm-lm32] jpbonn pushed 82 new commits to master: http://git.io/6nJw7Q
<GitHub151>
[llvm-lm32/master] Update InstCombine worklist after instruction transform is complete. - Jim Grosbach
<GitHub151>
[llvm-lm32/master] Check for the returns_twice attribute in callsFunctionThatReturnsTwice. This - Rafael Espindola
<GitHub151>
[llvm-lm32/master] Override TRI::getSubClassWithSubReg for X86. - Jakob Stoklund Olesen
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: what temperature ranges do you plan to torture M1 with?
<wpwrak>
at the moment, ambient capped by air conditioning at ~18 C. so about 16-19 C
<wpwrak>
if this isn't cold enough, i'll take it to the fridge. my USB extension cable goes up to 30 m, which will be more than enough (only need about 20 m from office PC to fridge, i think)
<wpwrak>
yeah. meter says 19.1 m :)
<kristianpaul>
USB cable up to 30m??? how is that posible?
<wpwrak>
it's one of those USB-over-UTP5 transceivers. amplifies the signal. not sure if the timing is 100% legit, but it works :)
<n0carri3r>
evening all
<kristianpaul>
hello
<n0carri3r>
just checking out the channel for the first time
<n0carri3r>
got a milkymist a few days ago
<kristianpaul>
great !
<kristianpaul>
Wellcome :-)
<wpwrak>
welcome to the club ! ;-)
<n0carri3r>
thanks :)
<wpwrak>
or should i say "the avantgarde" ? :)
<kristianpaul>
nice word
<wpwrak>
n0carri3r: do you plan to use it to VJ in clubs ? or just play around ? or for hacking ?
<n0carri3r>
i'll be using it to VJ
<kristianpaul>
n0carri3r: is ir working already for you?
<kristianpaul>
oh !
<kristianpaul>
s/ir/it
<n0carri3r>
for an event in philly next weekend, then in tokyo the following weekend! so i have a lot of practicing to do!
<n0carri3r>
philly = philadlephia
<n0carri3r>
i haven't tried the IR, yet
<kristianpaul>
there is a flickernoise handbook somewhere..
<kristianpaul>
let my find a link
<wpwrak>
whee, you're going places ! :)
<n0carri3r>
well, i've been looking at the WIP patch creation manual
<n0carri3r>
and some older milkdrop tutorials, that i think its based on
<kristianpaul>
ah, good :)
<n0carri3r>
its very easy so far, but many things aren't documented, like motion vectors
<n0carri3r>
but they're very easy to figure ot
<n0carri3r>
out*
<kristianpaul>
what are motion vectors?
<n0carri3r>
perhaps in the next update you should include a "blank" patch with everything included, but turned off / set to 0
<n0carri3r>
motion vector == the grid of 64 dots across or 48 dots high
<wpwrak>
kewl. if you can contribute some new patches, that would be very nice. currently, nobody seems to be doing much on that front.
<kristianpaul>
interesting idea
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<n0carri3r>
motion vectors are used in the 8-bit starfield demo thats included
<n0carri3r>
yes, i'll contribute some new ones soon :)
<n0carri3r>
i can make a page on the wiki, perhaps
<wpwrak>
what would the "blank" patch do ? just show a black screen ?
<n0carri3r>
(brb)
<n0carri3r>
yes, just a blank page, but with all of the variables and everything typed out, so you can edit them
<kristianpaul>
it seems to mean that variables are declared but empty?
<wpwrak>
yes, that makes me wonder. ah, perhaps a skeleton for development.
<kristianpaul>
also i was wondering the other days how to came with drawing pacthes