lekernel changed the topic of #milkymist to: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: Something to do? https://github.com/milkymist/bugs/issues
<wolfspraul> jpbonn: which system are you on?
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<jpbonn> Which milkymist? It's some pre-release thing sebastian gave me - so I'm not sure.
<wolfspraul> ah ok, I thought you meant an flterm build problem on your host :-)
<jpbonn> oh, no. I can download things but I haven't been able to get anything to run. I thought I'd try something known.
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<cladamwa> wpwrak, good morning !
<cladamwa> this version concludes:
<cladamwa> 1). LEDs-M are under related CONs. 2). expansion board limited area is placed. 3) most added parts are moved/placed into pcb design
<cladamwa> wpwrak, but I've not go very details on each parts. so for you reference. Since I've not confirmed all footprints. so now house stops now once I feedback them.
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<wpwrak> ah, it's starting to look more complete :)
<wpwrak> is there a way to move that fat-looking cap next to tge button ?
<wpwrak> (under the expansion board area)
<cladamwa> wpwrak, regards to the illustration of LED for each CON. Since in AD , there's colorized area you can see, so I'll copy each one to wiki page to review, then you will easy to get understand
<cladamwa> yeah...that's also house asked me yesterday.
<wpwrak> yes, i see them. the little blue parts
<wpwrak> doesn't DVI have one too ?
<cladamwa> so C178's height(7.5mm) actually smaller than the limited height(11.04mm), but yes, we need to find another option placement.
<wpwrak> ah, it's obscured by the DVI's ground
<cladamwa> (little blue ones) yes, they are LEDs.
<wpwrak> the ~10-11 mm are the absolute maximum height for anything under the expansion board. if it's taller, the board outline needs changing, which would be bad
<wpwrak> BUT
<cladamwa> don't care the DVI's gorund now. house will cut/seperate them.
<wpwrak> all the "unused" space will be available for the expansion board itself. e.g., component at the bottom, or also through-hole pins
<wpwrak> (DVI ground) naw, that was just why i didn't see the LED. now i found it :)
<cladamwa> yeah...good idea
<wpwrak> looks pretty good
<cladamwa> so for current rc3's area on IR, SW3, etc, they are good for the components at the bottom of expansion board design.
<wpwrak> yes, they all stay nicely out of the way
<cladamwa> alright, since I need to still go for very details on footprints, and those parts house already placed to see if any issues behind them.
<cladamwa> so anytime you discover any problems on this 041012 version, let me know firstly, since I need to sum up all feedbacks to house and meet them again.
<cladamwa> btw, the un-used LED outside boards, we need to think where we want to placement. :-)
<cladamwa> wpwrak, did you see them ?
<wpwrak> C260 is a bit tall. 2.5+/-0.3 mm. but i guess it would be hard to move that one
<wpwrak> they can go wherever it's convenient. maybe try to keep them together. "interesting" locations would be: on the edge of the PCB, on the "east" side of the expansion board
<cladamwa> yeah..hard to move as it must be close to tranceiver.
<cladamwa> wait, you meant C260 or C178 ?
<wpwrak> or, also on the edge for the main PCB, on the "south" side, in the "southwest" corner under the power section
<wpwrak> C260
<wpwrak> err, C240
<wpwrak> sorry
<cladamwa> aha...that's C240 actually have good history.
<wpwrak> oh, it even has a history ;-)
<cladamwa> in rc1, it doesn't have it. In rc2 we started to added and tried to fix dram problems. but in the end, Sebastien found that it's s/w or f/w problem which is not the C240/100uF problem at all. :-)
<cladamwa> so actually it's no need there, but somehow the level can be stable well after added it. :-)
<wpwrak> hmm :)
<cladamwa> that's discovery after rc1 board. :-)
<wpwrak> nice scope :)
<cladamwa> in rc1 without C240, rc2 has it.
<wpwrak> so better not to touch it. unless we're prepared to verify signal integrity again
<cladamwa> yeah..so let's don't touch C240 even we want to get more height. :-)
<wpwrak> we need about 2 mm of minimum clearance for U1 and U18 (1.6 mm) anyway
<cladamwa> you meant 2 mm between GND and AUDIO_AGND ?
<wpwrak> i mean vertical clearance
<wpwrak> the ICs have a height of 1.6 m each
<wpwrak> err, 1.6 mm
<cladamwa> hmm
<cladamwa> 8:10 now collides expansion board edge, did you see that ?
<cladamwa> btw, seems house already moved jtag/serial headers lower.
<wpwrak> ah yes
<cladamwa> and 8:10 socket didn't move.
<cladamwa> or maybe the data i gave them was wrong ? : http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=File:Xbrd-top.pdf&page=1
<cladamwa> hmm...i need to check. :-)
<wpwrak> can you measure the distances in AD ?
<cladamwa> sure, i'm checking... ;-)
<cladamwa> expansion length in AD is 85.08mm same as your pdf.
<cladamwa> could you give me your latest drawing again ?
<cladamwa> i listed it on: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_Layout_Criteria/zh_tw#M1R4_.E4.BD.88.E7.B7.9A.E6.BA.96.E5.89.87.E8.88.87.E6.B3.A8.E6.84.8F.E4.BA.8B.E9.A0.85
<cladamwa> maybe i forgot to update your latest drawing.
<wpwrak> hmm , 85mm does indeed seem too long
<wpwrak> can you check the distance between J19 and the "eastern" PCB edge ?
<cladamwa> okay
<cladamwa> J19's eastern edge to expansion's eastern edge is 83.82 mm.
<cladamwa> 83.83 mm is to expansion's eastern edge not r4's pcb eastern edge. :-)
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<cladamwa> s/83.83/83.82
<wpwrak> so let's make it 82 mm then
<cladamwa> just rough 1.82 mm clearance. :-)
<cladamwa> okay.
<wpwrak> thanks for catching that one !
<cladamwa> no, you're welcome. thanks for updated. :-)
<cladamwa> wpwrak, since i think i need to make clear LED's colorized placement for you. so this review for 041012 i think we will need like 2 days at least to review and I'll record feedback to house here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_R4_Layout_History
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<wpwrak> i can see the LEDs. the locations look good.
<cladamwa> so please be paid patience for me, sorry. meanwhile I stopped KiCad's milkymist/board-m1 editing. https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1
<wpwrak> yeah, looks good. no rush :) i won't get much done until i've gotten rid of that flu anyway
<cladamwa> house did a very outlook color footprint for led on "cut-out layer" for mask layer. :-)
<cladamwa> so I'll show you. :)
<cladamwa> wpwrak, J24 (internal usb e/f ports) placement is okay to you ?
<wpwrak> good question :) we still don't know what will connect to it. so maybe yes, maybe not.
<wpwrak> i think wolfgang had some ideas about it (?)
<cladamwa> (J16 & J20) house made mistakes on placing toward board inside, I'll feedback to them to shift to outside of board edge a bit. The distance should be the same as rc3's outlet.
<cladamwa> wolfspraul, did you follow our discussion, sorry to bother you. :-)
<wpwrak> (j16, j20) yeah, they look a bit suspicious
<cladamwa> sure, i'll feedback them. :
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<wpwrak> going to suspend mode now ...
<cladamwa> hope you get rid of flu soon.
<cladamwa> night.
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<kristianpaul> If you have some desing guidelines for next FN GUI, i may get colaboration from a local university at Ecuador willing to help to a floss-related project..
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: fedex package seem will arrive tomorrow, fyi
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<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: nice!
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: oh wow, flu. I hope you have a 14h sleep and feel MUCH BETTER thereafter... rest well
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<lekernel_> mwalle: also have a look at DCM_CLKGEN
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<Fallenou> lekernel_: you don't check the output of LOCKED signal from DCM because you have STARTUP_WAIT=true so that fpga won't release global reset untill DCM is locked, right ? (trying to understand)
<lekernel_> yes
<Fallenou> ok
<wolfspraul> cladamw: yes I saw the discussion above
<wolfspraul> am I supposed to say something? :-)
<cladamw> hehe... maybe Werner thought you have had idea on how to connect that internal usb. ;-)
<cladamw> but it's okay that J24(internal usb 2*5 pins) let it placed there firstly. :-)
<cladamw> since I'm still reviewing one-by-one part's connection and their footprints, and needs feedback to house, so any speed-up can be joined later. :-)
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> I certainly don't want to "spit in the soup" from the outside
<wolfspraul> I am sure the layout folks first-hand, and then you and werner and maybe others will try to have a nuanced look at the internal usb situation
<wolfspraul> I can always contribute new ideas like "let's remove the 2 internal usb", and see what happens then :-)
<cladamw> :-)
<Fallenou> lekernel_: I found this in some Xilinx doc : After configuration, the RST input should be asserted until the CLKIN input stabilizes
<Fallenou> (highly recommended).
<Fallenou> maybe it could be a good idea to put DCM in reset at startup and then release it
<Fallenou> I will see if I can add this
<Fallenou> and also add a synchronizer to the reset button input to avoid meta-stability issues
<lekernel_> the CLKIN is long stabilized before the FPGA has read its bitstream
<Fallenou> ok, good to know
<lekernel_> if you're looking for relatively simple FPGA tasks, you can try adding ethernet to -ng :)
<Fallenou> actually I was just speaking to MatthiasM (you may know him, from ##fpga) and he told me about meta stability issues, asynchronous reset issues and DCM things
<Fallenou> so I just checked to see if we were doing the right things
<Fallenou> my main focus remains the mmu :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the USB question was about where we should place that header. you were once thinking about some cables you could source easily, that would connect on one side to the connector and on the other to the USB device. would the current tentative connector placement suit them ? (or have you dropped the idea of these cables already ?)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the question is basically how we're going to use the connector. particularly if we plan to ship m1r4 with an internally-mounted RF dongle (for kbd+mouse), we should begin to develop a plan :)
<wpwrak> the currently suggested placement would require either a cable or a board that 1) is parallel to the main pcb, 2) meanders out of the nordeast corner, avoiding DMX and USB (both connectors are taller than the stacking height of the usual header), and 3) then perhaps ends in a USB receptacle parallel to the main PCB
<wpwrak> maybe we should move that connector a bit out of its corner. in there, there's very little you can do with it with the case in place. about the only choice is a cable. pcbs would already be messy.
<wpwrak> cladamw: how about moving it right behind the "northern" USB connector ? same orientation
<wpwrak> that would mean moving the IC "east" of U17 (or using an SMT variant of the connector) and maybe also pushing U17 a bit to the left
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<wpwrak> (in the absence of a specific plan with a cable or such, i simply assume that we'll make some small PCB in the end)
<wolfspraul> god that sounds scary
<wolfspraul> werner knows how to force me to think through all the details in the end...
<wolfspraul> we can also postpone the internal usbs to a later revision... we go from 2 to 4 already
<wolfspraul> but ok ok, I will read through this and look at the board etc :-)
<wolfspraul> though I don't think I can have any more wise or better idea than the people who did this before me
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<cladamw> wpwrak, "northern" USB is J20(c/d port), so as column orientation J24 >> J20 >> J16, is it your meanings ?
<wpwrak> (scary) the meandering PCB ? yeah. if we can place the connector a bit better, that should be friendlier
<cladamw> hmm...sounds two opinions are different, seems should I postpone J24 question now ? :-)
<wpwrak> cladamw: no, J24 between "DMX TX" and J20
<wpwrak> cladamw: so the board that plugs into it could have a USB A receptacle facing "west", with the USB dongle residing over the DMX TX/RX section
<wpwrak> we'll have to see what this does in terms of interference. having a strong RF source right next to the rest of the board may not be ideal. but we'll see.
<cladamw> oah... as this concern ? >> "maybe we should move that connector a bit out of its corner. in there, there's very little you can do with it with the case in place."
<cladamw> man ! i should have read carefully backlog but if a simple illustration would be good. My brain now is hard to digest.
<cladamw> (led's cut-off layer) wpwrak btw, see this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1r4_apa1606surck_cutoff_layer.png
<cladamw> wpwrak, this will cut off mask. but I think a sector-shape would be rather than rectangle one. how do you think ? Are you free from bad flu ?
<wpwrak> cladamw: (led cut-out) not sure if the shape makes a big difference in practice. as long as the opening is about as wide as the LED, it's probably fine
<wpwrak> cladamw: (flu) naw, that will probably be around for a few days. today it's less unpleasant than yesterday, though.
<wpwrak> red outline would be the connector. green outline would be the dongle. (more or less - may be a bit longer, considering the receptacle)
<cladamw> wpwrak, the area of cut-out yes if makes it purple rectangle bigger than the LED's length should be okay. so i'll let house to add length a bit.
<cladamw> wpwrak, thanks the drawing, now i realize the dongle idea. phew ~
<cladamw> hmm...not sure if house will get crazy(not sure route easy or not) to we let J24 placed there. ;-)
<wpwrak> they should save the craziness for DVI ;-)
<wpwrak> anyway, afk for a couple of hours
<lekernel> mwalle: sent you 2x USB transceivers
<wolfspraul> does 'dongle' mean that the internal usb are effectively removed?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: what gives you that kind of crazy idea ? :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think you're in the wrong business. you should have become a surgeon, specializing in amputations ;-)
<wpwrak> the idea is to move the connector to a place where it's easy to attach an adapter board. that board would then have a regular USB A receptacle, or maybe two
<wpwrak> into this, you could plug, say, the rii RF dongle
<lekernel> so, now you're talking about adding USB receptacles to the internal ports?
<lekernel> wow
<wpwrak> lekernel: well, you need to connect the USB device somehow :)
<wpwrak> lekernel: and that would be a separate board. completely optional. if you wish to enjoy the unobstructed view of the M1's internals, just don't use it :)
<lekernel> afaik USB thingies that are supposed to be used internally do not have a USB plug on them
<wpwrak> there are only very few that are designed for internal use. i'm more thinking of things that are a permanent part of the system, like the RF dongle for the keyboard+mouse combo
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<lekernel> ...for the Commodore One Extender Board ...
<wpwrak> well, maybe we could find an old ZX81 case for the M1 ;-)
<wpwrak> the size should be about right
<lekernel> nah, don't bother :) Milkymist should be about making powerful and accessible tools. the demoscene is about pushing the limits of some obsolete/low-specs hardware using arcane knowledge. hardly the same thing.
<lekernel> and Milkymist as an FPGA project is not too badly referenced, I'm pretty sure lft and other talented demosceners have stumbled on it at least once...
<lekernel> wolfspraul: just wondering... how hard/expensive is it to source medium-sized HDTV LCDs? and what sort of electrical interface do they have? LVDS like laptop panels?
<wolfspraul> he
<wpwrak> lekernel: (demo scene) ah well, maybe another year :) i think there is some overlap, since that's about art through technology as well
<lekernel> wpwrak: yeah, but it's very different aesthetics
<wolfspraul> I spent some time on that recently actually :-)
<wolfspraul> ended up buying an AOC e2243Fw, which has a 21.5'' panel at 1920x1080 pixels, 12V power supply (about 20W)
<wolfspraul> that one supports vga and I think also dvi-i (digital) in
<lekernel> wolfspraul: I'm talking about the LCM only (with the idea to hook it up directly to the FPGA)
<wolfspraul> that's a whole unit, but I simply took the lcd module out of it
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with 'directly'?
<wolfspraul> 'module' is relative, it always goes further and further inside
<lekernel> without the control chip that takes DVI
<wpwrak> regarding the internal USB ... so far our working hypothesis was that we provide a connector and then wolfgang pulls a suitable cable out of his magic hat. shall we replace this with the working hypothesis that we'll make a little adapter board that provides at least one USB A receptacle ? (the board would be primitive - just two connectors, no other components. 1 or 2 layers)
<wolfspraul> there is not just one chip
<lekernel> or VGA, etc. and scales the picture and does stuff
<lekernel> (OSD, contrast/brightness, etc.)
<wolfspraul> you want to drive all thousands of wires directly?
<wolfspraul> wait let me see I have that e2243Fw disassembled right here :-)
<lekernel> the thousands of wire are usually handled by chips soldered on the glass panels
<wolfspraul> it cost an amazing 110 USD btw
<wolfspraul> for the whole monitor including case
<lekernel> then they have some simpler serial interface, which in the case of laptop panels is LVDS based
<wolfspraul> sometimes yes, on smartphone lcds
<wolfspraul> well there are probably lots of varieties in the end. most larger screens have a large but very thin pcb behind the screen
<lekernel> (the silicon is actually mounted on the glass directly)
<wolfspraul> not always, but ok
<lekernel> anything that is PCB we probably don't need
<lekernel> except for the backlight inverter maybe
<wolfspraul> wait let me get that beauty over real quick
<wolfspraul> I was planning to take pics but overloaded
<lekernel> of course, we can make our own backlight inverter, and drive the power transistors straight from the FPGA even, but... :-)
<wolfspraul> the truly mainland module makers can only go up to about 100 dpi btw
<wolfspraul> the higher stuff comes from foreign controlled corps or korea/japan/taiwan
<wolfspraul> so in that AOC monitor, the LCD module inside comes from L&T Display Technology in Fujian
<wolfspraul> and there's a long and thin pcb that drives the wires
<lekernel> does it have some sort of metallic cover behind it?
<wolfspraul> yes the module is enclosed
<lekernel> metal or plastic?
<wolfspraul> inside are the various filter layers etc. - a lot of layers
<wolfspraul> metal I think
<wolfspraul> I specifically wanted to look at a low-cost high-volume mainland made thing
<wolfspraul> I was more interested in understanding the supply chain
<wolfspraul> if you look at high-end japanese models - it's all different
<wolfspraul> the japanese are doing all their own stuff, all the way into the ics
<wolfspraul> don't think that it's all the same - it's not
<wolfspraul> of course eventually you hit physics, then it's all the same again :-)
<lekernel> but I guess there are common sizes or electrical interfaces?
<wolfspraul> the interface to the lcm module could be lvds, yes. guessing.
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> not at all
<wolfspraul> backlight changed from ccfl (?) to led
<lekernel> also we'd need one that can let high frequency magnetic fields through. those metal shields sound nasty.
<wolfspraul> then the different manufacturers may integrate all sorts of things
<wolfspraul> don't underestimate this
<wolfspraul> they are typically added into the wires
<wolfspraul> so you have at least 10-20 different types of wires, even in notebook panels
<wolfspraul> 30
<wolfspraul> tv - dozens more
<lekernel> led is great, probably less potential EMI problems than CCFL
<wolfspraul> I know entire companies just making endless varieties of the internal cables and connectors going to lcm modules :-)
<wolfspraul> definitely
<wolfspraul> led
<lekernel> are there LCM panels without a metallic shield behind?
<wolfspraul> don't recall
<wolfspraul> you can take one apart and see when it stops working :-)
<wolfspraul> here are some connectors, from notebooks http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Notebook_connectors#LED-backlit_LCD_panel
<wolfspraul> but 'module' is relative, really
<wolfspraul> the module maker making the lcm may get some drive circuitry from yet another company
<wolfspraul> glass cutting
<wolfspraul> I see 2 larger ICs here, let me take a pic
<wolfspraul> on the last ic before the wires I see SM4025 DA1150 SMAT082
<wolfspraul> on the pcb before that (the one that goes from vga/dvi-i to probably lvds), I see a novatek nt68668aufg
<wolfspraul> so it's like this: vga/dvi-i -> novatek nt68668 -> cable that looks like notebook lvds cables -> long and wide and thin pcb with 2 ics, maybe rows & cols?, then tons of wires out from that pcb around the corner into the lcm module
<wolfspraul> a bit difficult to take a good picture because it's big, at night, reflections, hard to see text on ics, etc.
<wolfspraul> do you need pics?
<wolfspraul> I could take the lcm module apart, but most likely at least the first one would break in the process
<wolfspraul> 100 USD experimentation costs :-)
<wolfspraul> most likely inside there you only find a lot of thin layers and sheets and then glass, I think the crystals are between 2 sheets of glass
<wolfspraul> the problem with 'sourcing' is at which level you want to source
<lekernel> lcm
<wolfspraul> you can easily buy an aoc e2243Fw retail, anywhere
<wolfspraul> moq: 1
<wolfspraul> lead time: 1 day
<lekernel> unless you want to do chip-on-glass processes yourself
<wolfspraul> that's just one tiny part of the work
<lekernel> which by the way has its advantages too, since we can perhaps use the TFT panel's wires instead of hacky PCB printed coils behind the whole module
<wolfspraul> if you want to talk to the company that makes the 'module', maybe you can get some samples, but any moq will be at least 1k, maybe 5k maybe more
<wolfspraul> if you go in further, even higher moq
<lekernel> well that's the question I'm asking :)
<wolfspraul> you start by buying a few retail units, take them apart
<lekernel> and do we want to strip LCMs out of e2243Fw's ?
<wolfspraul> they tell you a lot about the supply chain
<lekernel> or fit a M1 board inside them?
<wolfspraul> all of those companies can be contacted, but work is adding up quickly
<wolfspraul> and someone has to pay :-)
<wolfspraul> let's say nobody but Apple works that way :-)
<wolfspraul> (and the crazy Milkymist One folks, of course)
<wolfspraul> most others, even the big guys, don't actually dig in that deep, they just buy with the trend...
<wolfspraul> so what we should do is: first experiment with prototypes we buy retail
<wolfspraul> then come up with a realistic manufacturing plan :-)
<lekernel> and then figure out that this weird LCM that happened to be in that device we bought is obsolete, not sourceable anywhere and incompatible with everything else?
<wolfspraul> I'm wondering whether those L&T guys also make the 2nd pcb here on my monitor
<wolfspraul> no no
<wolfspraul> all wrong
<wolfspraul> that's how it appears if you just source from a 1-person office in HK
<wolfspraul> but that is 100% the laziness of the buyer only
<wolfspraul> I am just explaining to you the innards of an AOC monitor
<wolfspraul> it sounds simple, but who is doing that?
<wolfspraul> you think 1 person at all Media Markts in Germany take apart 1 AOC monitor to understand anything?
<wolfspraul> nah
<wolfspraul> even if they sell hundreds of thousands of them, so what
<wolfspraul> I could open the module, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more company markings inside
<wolfspraul> no secrets, just laziness
<wolfspraul> and things don't "just change"
<wolfspraul> except when idiots are buying, sure
<wolfspraul> let me google those row & column driver markings real quick
<wolfspraul> with a little homework I could find out more
<wolfspraul> the reference design of the first pcb is surely from novatek
<wolfspraul> they are big
<wolfspraul> then maybe the row & col drivers are also from them
<wolfspraul> the other day I wanted to find out some info about my "asus" notebook
<wolfspraul> you would think asus is already an "oem"?
<wolfspraul> ha
<wolfspraul> that thing is designed and probably also made by compal!
<wolfspraul> and maybe compal outsources some lines of models again, possible
<wolfspraul> say someone has an idea to give a mainland team a chance
<wolfspraul> let them do their own line :-)
<wolfspraul> but these things do not just change, that's not fair to say
<wolfspraul> it's just that 99% of buyers don't care to understand the origins/supply chain
<wolfspraul> they just want to press a button and see the stupid thing turn on...
<wolfspraul> about 'incompatibilities', yes the lvds cables are being changed all the time
<wpwrak> only 99% don't care about the supply chain ? that would leave a while 1% that does ! i think you're off by a few orders of magnitude ;-)
<wolfspraul> look at the url I pasted, that's just a random selection of about 10 or so
<wpwrak> s/while/whole/
<wolfspraul> could be. I think 99.9% even of Dell employees have absolutely no clue where and how those "dell" computers actually come from
<wolfspraul> they are really just trading and customer support outsourcing firms
<wolfspraul> (they outsource the customer support again, not that they take a single call...)
<wolfspraul> I could go visit those L&T guys in Fujian, no problem
<wolfspraul> they would receive me, a potential customer
<lekernel> don't they have digikey-style distributors?
<wolfspraul> who?
<lekernel> any LCM manufacturer
<wolfspraul> I just tried to unwind it a little :-)
<wolfspraul> are the novatek ics on digikey?
<wolfspraul> we can check
<wolfspraul> the glass cutters? no
<wolfspraul> glass cutting & crystals between glass is typically done in 1 factory I think
<lekernel> why bother with novatek ICs? we have a FPGA
<wolfspraul> but this is constantly moving and changing/optimized
<wolfspraul> well
<lekernel> the only ICs we are going to have are the chip-on-glass ones and perhaps the LED/CCFL controller
<wolfspraul> I see *hundreds* of wires going around the corner of my "lcm module"
<wolfspraul> can't even count
<wolfspraul> what I suggest is this: take cheap chinese (mainland) models
<wolfspraul> and then just dig in
<wolfspraul> stay away from korean & japanese stuff
<wolfspraul> because they are regularly making really innovative high-end stuff, and then you really have zero documentation
<wolfspraul> whereas the chinese are typically starting with us ics and reference designs
<wolfspraul> and then relatively simple stuff
<lekernel> ok, good
<wolfspraul> hannsg.net is another one
<wolfspraul> those are already the 'brands'
<wolfspraul> then behind that you have more companies
<lekernel> wolfspraul: where do those hundreds wires go?
<wolfspraul> around the corner and into the module
<wolfspraul> "module" is a layer of sheets & glass
<wolfspraul> so I think on this one here, no cog
<wolfspraul> chip-on-glass
<wolfspraul> but that's a detail, then the chip is around the corner
<wolfspraul> with cog you must have a border somewhere
<wolfspraul> I think
<wolfspraul> I am not an lcm manufacturing expert, not at all. just a few snippets over the years.
<lekernel> lol, the cheapest LCM with a decent resolution (1024x768) is $336 on digikey
<wolfspraul> no no
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> that's why I say
<wolfspraul> aoc or hannsg, retail 120 USD
<wolfspraul> 1920x1080
<wolfspraul> yes it's silly to buy all that plastic and metal etc.
<wolfspraul> but if you go deeper into the supply chain, moq goes up
<lekernel> ok. guess Adam will have fun gutting HDTVs in a year or so :)
<wolfspraul> the moment you order 100, 500, more, you can alreayd start to optimize
<wolfspraul> please keep the totals in mind
<wolfspraul> say the plastic costs 5 USD
<wolfspraul> even 10
<wolfspraul> ok?
<wolfspraul> so we talk about a volume of 100 units
<wolfspraul> 100*10 = 1000 USD
<wpwrak> lekernel: digi-key have a number of parts where their intention of not selling them is fairly clear ;-)
<wolfspraul> and for that you want to go through all the trouble of contacting another lower company and sourcing a less standardized product that may not be in stock etc?
<lekernel> wolfspraul: and where do the other end of those wires go?
<wolfspraul> I think they run to the crystals, no?
<wolfspraul> I don't know, guessing
<lekernel> so, one end goes to the crystals and the other inside the module. doesn't seem very clear....
<wolfspraul> well I don't see the full route now
<wolfspraul> for that I have to take it apart and most likely destroy
<wolfspraul> but obviously it must make sense electrically
<lekernel> how does this LCM connect to the board that has DVI on it?
<wolfspraul> ok let me try to take a few pics agian :-)
<wolfspraul> I can tell you already from my observation the last cable to the lcm 'module' is not standardized well at all
<wolfspraul> that's because the different brands/makers like to mix in stuff
<wolfspraul> on this monitor there is also a second ic next to the novatek and a smaller 8-10 wire fpc merging into the cable going to the module
<lekernel> ok, well I know someone who's spent the last few years designing control ASICs for TV LCMs. will ask :)
<wolfspraul> perfect
<wolfspraul> you could check out novatek a little, then you get an idea
<wolfspraul> pic1 starts with the vga & dvi-i connector, and novatek all-in-one ic
<lekernel> looks similar to laptop LCMs
<wolfspraul> then the big cable going from there to the module from L&T
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> on the way a smaller cable coming from an unknown ic is mixed in
<lekernel> and the twisted pairs smell like LVDS
<wolfspraul> then it goes to the thing and long pcb I described, from where the hundreds of drive wires go into the module
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> but there is no standardization there
<wolfspraul> that's why Apple is pushing embedded displayport, I think
<lekernel> the only bothersome thing here is the metal shield
<wolfspraul> it might well work even after removing it
<wolfspraul> then you can see through except for the crystals that are colored :-)
<wolfspraul> could be, need to try if I'm in the "let's waste the next 120 USD" mood :-)
<lekernel> we'll replace it with a PCB
<lekernel> with printed coils
<wolfspraul> so big?
<lekernel> yes
<wolfspraul> ah ok
<wolfspraul> sure sounds great
<wolfspraul> I'm up for such ideas
<wolfspraul> the work into the supply chain is not crazy hard
<wolfspraul> it's just a lot of legwork, like if you have to buy 20 things for a difficult recipe
<wolfspraul> that last missing spice can drive you nuts sometimes :-)
<wolfspraul> and companies like those L&t guys - the ones making the module, can be quite happy to talk to people who want to do something different
<wolfspraul> so even if you tell them "but our volume may only be 100 units", they may still do it
<wolfspraul> they call it "sample" and pull it off
<wolfspraul> but it all starts with you knowing exactly what you really want to build, because those corps are all *manufacturers*
<lekernel> seems it works :)
<wolfspraul> nice
<wolfspraul> did you see my pics?
<wolfspraul> I don't think you want to touch that long & thin pcb
<wolfspraul> that is essentially what you mean with chip-on-glass
<lekernel> no, we can hook up to the LVDS cable
<lekernel> much simpler
<wolfspraul> on smaller panels you integrate that more and put those row & column drivers on the glass
<wolfspraul> yes correct
<lekernel> and compatible with more displays
<wolfspraul> ah no
<wolfspraul> not really
<wolfspraul> because as I said many times now, you find *lots* of varieties of the pins on those cables
<wolfspraul> that's 12 connectors already there
<wolfspraul> just mechanically different
<lekernel> well it's just a matter of cable with dozens of pins :) I very much prefer that to varying analogue properties of thin film transistors and mechanical differences with thousands of pins involved
<wolfspraul> agreed
<wolfspraul> can you take a look at those pics?
<lekernel> yes, done
<wolfspraul> a while ago I already tried to dig in there a little, and of course you find the same patterns
<lekernel> before I mentioned those twisted pairs :)
<lekernel> [17:00] <lekernel> looks similar to laptop LCMs
<wolfspraul> no I mean the second url with different connectors
<wolfspraul> because it's not as easy as "standard lvds"
<wolfspraul> there is no standard for the pin assigmnents
<wolfspraul> unfortunately
<wolfspraul> but they all keep adding extra wires
<wolfspraul> for an integrated ir control
<wolfspraul> integrated webcam
<wolfspraul> integrated whatever
<wolfspraul> integrated captouch buttons
<wolfspraul> you name it
<lekernel> oh but that's for the backlight, no?
<lekernel> and accessories
<wolfspraul> sometimes backlight goes over that cable, sometimes separate cable
<wolfspraul> ccfl often separate cable
<wolfspraul> led often integrated with the lvds signals
<lekernel> o
<lekernel> k
<wolfspraul> sometimes backlight has 2 wires, sometimes 4
<wolfspraul> and with high-end japanese, as I said, they will do everything differently :-)
<lekernel> anyway, this isn't something to be afraid about imo
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> agreed
<lekernel> worst case it's a minor PCB respin
<wolfspraul> but maybe I should repeat embedded displayport a bit more, then you will be afraid :-)
<lekernel> in the LCM itself?
<wolfspraul> because apple is trying to cleanup that lvds cable mess
<wolfspraul> to the module
<wolfspraul> but right now it's all lvds, no worries :-)
<wolfspraul> but a LARGE VARIETY of pin assignments
<lekernel> as long as this thing can operate in backwards DVI compatibility mode, displayport is not too much of a mess
<wolfspraul> you can buy a cheap aoc or hannsg monitor if you want to try
<wolfspraul> I should try to remove the back metal, good point - thanks!
<wolfspraul> I was happy that this thing still worked after disassembly
<lekernel> though their price has doubled by the time they have reached German retail stores :)
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> not at all
<wolfspraul> 20% vat, ok
<wolfspraul> wait
<wolfspraul> that's the e2243Fw in my pics
<lekernel> ah, not too bad indeed
<wolfspraul> currently not in stock, but "on delivery" which is usually accurate
<lekernel> anyway, I'm going to the US for a month on Thursday, so these things have to wait
<wolfspraul> sure
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<lekernel> and I'll probably want to start with the coil array first anyway
<wolfspraul> same monitors there of course :-)
<wolfspraul> those are the smallest, actually larger is very easy
<wolfspraul> higher dpi is more difficult, I think the mainland companies cannot go much above 100dpi right now
<wolfspraul> not that I think we care, just saying
<lekernel> a bit large for the luggage, especially considering I'm going to visit a dozen cities or so :)
<wolfspraul> the really high-end stuff is all out of japan
<wolfspraul> (in that sector)
<wolfspraul> yeah unfrotunately the chinese don't have smaller ones :-)
<lekernel> and it's not like I have nothing to do already
<wolfspraul> in fact those are the smallest
<lekernel> no but it's great
<lekernel> we'll want a nice, large, visible table
<wolfspraul> you can have 27'' easily
<wolfspraul> and larger
<lekernel> that's why I'm asking about TV LCMs and not laptop LCMs
<wolfspraul> the size is not the cost issue here, it's the capability of the factory to make high resolutions
<wolfspraul> yes the chinese are perfect for large and cheap panels
<wolfspraul> I haven't showed you the large ones yet :-)
<wolfspraul> because I tried to buy the *smallest* :-)
<lekernel> don't forget that we'll have to stuff the backside with a large PCB too :)
<lekernel> hopefully 4 layers will be enough
<wolfspraul> BenQ and Acer also seem quite active, they are Taiwanese
<lekernel> maybe even 2
<wolfspraul> viewsonic
<wolfspraul> but if you want to get a quick view, check aoc & hannsg, their websites are decent too if you stay in the chinese interface and use chromium with translation
<wolfspraul> aoc - http://www.aocmonitor.com.cn
<wolfspraul> hannsg - http://www.hannsg.net
<wolfspraul> and yes, as I explained above. those are 'retail' brands
<wolfspraul> so later we may want to work with the companies behind them, but that is just work, completely no problem
<wolfspraul> but that should be economically driven, not technically driven
<wolfspraul> economically at the beginning we may be better off buying the whole thing for 120 USD and taking the parts out that we want
<wolfspraul> because those 120 USD were put together at an efficiency that we don't want to fiddle with at the beginning
<lekernel> and machine and reuse the case? ;)
<wolfspraul> otherwise it will be 200 USD in no time, and more
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<wolfspraul> ok, just googled
<wolfspraul> L&T is a joint venture between TPV and LG
<wolfspraul> so korean
<wolfspraul> forced to work with a chinese 'partner' :-)
<wolfspraul> still trying to see whether l&t has a website
<wolfspraul> that is sometimes a bit difficult because one needs to know their chinese character name
<wolfspraul> ah here is something, the parent company first http://www.tpvholdings.com/html/corp_profile.php
<wolfspraul> AOC is their brand
<wolfspraul> so they enter this joint-venture with LG, subsidiary makes modules, AOC (TPV) sells monitors
<wolfspraul> meaning: if you want to customize something, contact tpv (I'm too lazy to look for direct l&t contacts now, found some staff at linkedin though)
<wolfspraul> you get the idea
<wolfspraul> all possible, no magic
<wolfspraul> but customizing/modifying very efficient processes can easily get costly
<wolfspraul> nice, and the profits are all going to the carribean http://www.tpvholdings.com/img/structure.jpg
<wolfspraul> that's where I could need an island too
<wolfspraul> (for the unsuspecting among us, BVI = british virgin islands)
<wolfspraul> calling it a day, n8
<lekernel> gn8
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<mwalle> lekernel: what do you think about using two PLLs for all clocks?
<mwalle> lekernel: thx for the transceivers
<mwalle> lekernel: atm im running two PLLs: Vco=600MHz with two outputs phy_clk (25MHz) and 24MHz which is feeded into the second, operating at Vco 720MHz, which generates 72MHz and 80Mhz
<mwalle> unfortunately i'm not able to synthesize the 60Mhz for the vga pixelclock
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<lekernel> why not :)
<lekernel> actually -ng uses a PLL for clocking already
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<lekernel> the VGA pixel clock should use a DCM_CLKGEN with the SPI-like interface to change the frequency (it used not to work with first versions of ISE, but according to xilinx it is fixed now)
<mwalle> lekernel: why are the DCMs pinned by constraints? just to make the life of the placer easier?
<mwalle> atm im just removed these constraints, because my fpga_editor doesnt start
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<lekernel> first versions of ISE had bugs and failed to place them
<lekernel> also to guarantee some timing relationships
<lekernel> (regarding IO)
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<wpwrak> lekernel: just finished watching Bret Victor's talk. really good stuff. and yes, that's a direction in which i'd like to see the M1 UI go as well
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