<hypermodern>
plus we could use the dmx controllers to flash the room
<hypermodern>
to "reset" if video output gets stuck into black
<hypermodern>
Potentially stroboscopic light would influence the effect as well.
<wpwrak>
hmm, i wonder what effect the fairly low resolution of the composite video input would have on this
<wpwrak>
but it could go either way - good or bad :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, agree
<hypermodern>
I'm thinking good
<wolfspraul>
but the ideas can and should be tried now
<hypermodern>
just cause I like analog video degradation
<hypermodern>
!
<hypermodern>
OK, I'm drafting up a proposal, and I have the floor plans, and will make a mockup in the next few days, this is a very helpful conversation, Wolfspraul
<hypermodern>
thank you.
<hypermodern>
What is the refresh rate on MM1
<hypermodern>
60fps?
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
I don't think so
<wolfspraul>
maybe 24fps?
<hypermodern>
OK.
<hypermodern>
as long as it's over 12!
<wolfspraul>
it is
<hypermodern>
that's where images flow
<wolfspraul>
though in 1024x768 it goes down to 4 or so :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think
<wolfspraul>
but since it operates at 640x480, you get your >12
<hypermodern>
what's the default then to get 24?
<hypermodern>
OK
<hypermodern>
gotcha
<wolfspraul>
it's just about performance here and there
<hypermodern>
240x480 gives 24 fps?
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien works intensively on this stuff, we try to up the performance
<wolfspraul>
640x480
<wolfspraul>
I *think* it was 24fps, but not 100% sure now
<hypermodern>
OK no problem
<wolfspraul>
the bottleneck is memory bandwidth
<wpwrak>
i also think it's 24 ... checking ...
<sb0>
640x480 @24fps works, yes
<wolfspraul>
at some point I think somewhat soon (?) we plan to switch to a new version of the SoC with faster memory
<wolfspraul>
but let's say that will be another month or two out, I think
<hypermodern>
Cool thank sb0
<hypermodern>
and is there any limit on how long a jpeg image can be held i.e. is there any risk of "burn in" like a plasma tv?
<sb0>
probably more, I'm back from the US only on May 13th, and the schedule is already quite packed
<sb0>
I won't have time to write much code
<wolfspraul>
sure, but it's moving, and in the meantime we try to improve the environment and platform elsewhere. one by one...
<sb0>
then we need the old cores ported, at least the important ones
<sb0>
and dataflow synthesis in migen to rewrite the hw acceleration properly
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
as long as migen is not aborted, it doesn't really matter whether it takes another month or two somewhere, since we have so many other good short targets that can make a difference to users today
<wpwrak>
hypermodern: depends entirely on your display technology. i can't imagine any way in which a static/repetitive image could upset the M1 itself
<hypermodern>
OK.
<hypermodern>
that's what I fugured
<hypermodern>
I knew it can effect certain display types, but I figured not the chip itself
<hypermodern>
thank you for the clarification
<hypermodern>
Is there any vector support for .svg?
<hypermodern>
or only png and .jpg?
<wolfspraul>
on the m1? no svg
<wpwrak>
only pixels, no direct support for vector. there's some vector drawing for the audio signal, but i doubt you could use that for much
<hypermodern>
OK
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: we may need migen to verify the M1r4 boards, though
<hypermodern>
would it be enough to just have a series of lines rendered via vector and a second set rendered over the top off by a few degrees?
<hypermodern>
similar to the images of lines I sent you?
<wpwrak>
hypermodern: i'm not sure you have enough control over lines to do such things. also, lines are drawn by software, so that's quite slow.
<hypermodern>
with math see the calculations of parallel patterns.
<hypermodern>
slow will give time for the eyes to perceptually burn in
<hypermodern>
contributing to the movement
<hypermodern>
even though the image is static!
<hypermodern>
So what I'm wondering is if MM1 can render static lines at maybe 4 fps (or slower is fine)
<wpwrak>
you may have more luck with precomputed images. you could still combine them with the video in image.
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<hypermodern>
great idea,from two channels right?
<hypermodern>
so if you had two transparent png that would work?
<wpwrak>
you may want to change the code for that, instead of trying to make the existing system do that
<hypermodern>
The problem is I don't know how to code
<hypermodern>
I know how to make images though...
<hypermodern>
:-D
<wpwrak>
transparency is actually alpha-blending. so you get a merged image. but yes, you have two image channels there to play with
<wpwrak>
ah, without coding skills, this may be difficult :) alas, the M1 code probably isn't even a particularly good place to get started. it's quite clean, though. but sometimes a bit complex.
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<hypermodern>
and I have an idea of a looping static image installation
<hypermodern>
which is a video synthesizer not making video digitally
<hypermodern>
but through loopback degradation and moiré patterns
<hypermodern>
so the actual hardware drives the visual effects and the *perception* and subsequent retinal fatigue of the viewer makes it move
<hypermodern>
Thank you for the input wpwrak
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<wpwrak>
no problem. hope it's useful :)
<hypermodern>
so to make sure I understand what you're saying I'd like to go through it
<wpwrak>
you probably just have to experiment a bit to get a feeling for what works and what doesn't
<hypermodern>
in channel 1 I put 180 degree vertical series of lines
<wpwrak>
for pattern generation, i'd suggest trying to make some PNGs
<hypermodern>
and in channel 2 I put a 175 degree diagnal
<hypermodern>
they both have transparent backgrounds
<hypermodern>
and then I can make a single image using the alpha blend correct?
<wpwrak>
you can have a large set of images and pick each channel from that set. so you can have dynamic effects - or just a collection for trial and error
<hypermodern>
I see, do you by chance know what the max memory is for images that ar 1024x768?
<hypermodern>
maybe something like 40?
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure if transparency in images is used by M1. but since the blending is additive, black means that the respective image doesn't add anything
<hypermodern>
Ah, good tip. thank you.
<wpwrak>
the rendering only runs at 640x480
<hypermodern>
Ok
<hypermodern>
how many images at that res?
<hypermodern>
Roughly speakin
<wpwrak>
and i think the effective resolution for images is only around 300x216. but i don't know where that limit comes from
<hypermodern>
no problem...I just need to know how many roughly can be store in the mm1 memory
<hypermodern>
to be mixed
<wpwrak>
not sure ... maybe around 100
<hypermodern>
Perfect
<hypermodern>
Thank you.
<wpwrak>
i only went to ~30 ;-)
<hypermodern>
OK...this gives me a lot more perspective. Thank you wpwrak and wolfspraul
<hypermodern>
I'll be back with a better understanding once I draw/write out my goals for the installation
<wolfspraul>
thanks a lot!
<hypermodern>
You're welcome ;)
<wolfspraul>
with m1 I think what you need to expect is that you want to try a lot of things (assuming you have that motivation)
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<wolfspraul>
and in many of those cases, you run into 'missing' features
<wolfspraul>
eventually you hit the bottom, and are 100% aware of what m1 can do
<wolfspraul>
from then on it goes UPWARDS! :-)
<hypermodern>
Well at this point it's all on paper
<wolfspraul>
because the thing is actually very cool, but it takes time to get out of the hundreds of perceptions set by other computers
<hypermodern>
so I am trying to figure out the parameters of what the tool *can't* do and then I get my freedom
<wolfspraul>
oh it's great, you are doing exactly the right stuff with m1