lekernel changed the topic of #milkymist to: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: EHSM Berlin Dec 28-30 http://ehsm.eu :: latest video http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL181AAD8063FCC9DC
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<kristianpaul> lekernel_: but you crititics include the lastest openrisc iplementations? like https://github.com/openrisc/mor1kx
<kristianpaul> azonenberg: indeed what happened witht the cmos.. you were're building some tools last time i heard
<kristianpaul> homecmos*
<azonenberg> kristianpaul: Yes, things are going slow because of school
<azonenberg> i'm still working on the spin coater and CNC microscope stage
<wolfspra1l> and because azonenberg is doing 20 things in parallel :-)
<wolfspra1l> no
<wolfspra1l> 50
<kristianpaul> ;-)
<azonenberg> wolfspra1l: I'm a bit of a barrel processor
<azonenberg> I need lots of threads to get maximal utilization
<kristianpaul> cde: in my enormous ignorance i think the kernel should be incharge of memory management anyway
<wolfspra1l> I somehow think I must be days or maybe 1 week away from generating my first simple designs that can run in an slx9
<wolfspra1l> then I will bug xiangfu about why they don't run, and/or ruin his chips :-)
<azonenberg> wolfspra1l: :)
<wolfspra1l> what's missing now is essentially to fill in more pieces everywhere, the architecture is all fine
<wolfspra1l> better autotester
<azonenberg> Nice
<wolfspra1l> just lots of implementation details
<wolfspra1l> more routing switches
<azonenberg> I'm going to work on higher level tooling stuff for now
<wolfspra1l> more inter-tile connections
<wolfspra1l> auto-crc
<azonenberg> and operate under the assumption that at some point your code will get mature enough that i can generate your native file format instead of XDL output from my tools
<wolfspra1l> (maybe I can ask the chip to skip auto-crc checks for now)
<wolfspra1l> that is fine, I continue and also very open about how far I am
<wolfspra1l> at this point, the only bitstream I can generate is still "the empty bitstream"
<wolfspra1l> :-)
<wolfspra1l> I must have implemented the most inefficient way to generate an empty bitstream
<wolfspra1l> there's about 100 switches in the routing switchbox that bug me right now
<wolfspra1l> between the long (4-tile) wires
<wolfspra1l> back to work...
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<kristianpaul> nice indeed :)
<kristianpaul> cde: is a fair point this about trully free os, but we cant negate the comodity of having stuff like ELF.. but yeah the binary only thing seems a good excuse for mmu
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<lekernel> kristianpaul: that's the "recent reimplementation" I mentioned
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<GitHub111> [migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/compare/3b3e2f19eb21...2e14569b5c64
<GitHub111> [migen/master] fhdl: list signals in execution order - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
<GitHub111> [migen/master] fhdl/verilog: sort clock domains by name - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<wpwrak> hellekin: welcome back ! indeed an extended world tour ;-)
<wpwrak> hellekin: so you'll be here in time for the protest march (cacerolazo) on thursday :)
<cde> wolfspra1l: https://github.com/sbourdeauducq/llhdl is 404 :( referenced from http://www.milkymist.org/fpgatools/ . is there a newer repo?
<larsc> maybe lekernel deleted it
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<Fallenou> yes it has been deleted
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<lekernel> seems wolfspra1l and azonenberg are doing better tools anyway :)
<cde> oh cool! are they currently on github?
<Fallenou> yes
<cde> thanks a lot
<cde> btw I created my github account, https://github.com/rxos (currently empty)
<cde> sadly, cde was already taken
<cde> I thought fpgatools would support primarily xc6slx45, but it targets xc6slx9?
<cde> well it shouldn't be very add to add support for bigger chips I guess ;)
<Fallenou> it's xiangfu 's board which is using slx9 IIRC
<Fallenou> a very very "simple" (meaning minimalist) board
<cde> thanks. was there a particular requirement for the slx9 as opposed to using the M1 as a testbed?
<cde> I guess you can experiment more wildly with it, in particular wrt/ I/O since it would cost less if destroyed
<Fallenou> slx9 is much more "simple" than M1
<Fallenou> and fpga is smaller, simpler I guess
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<Fallenou> easier to do bitstream generation experiment on small fpga + small board
<wolfspra1l> I agree with Sebastien that the llhdl and antares sources are not worth looking at, but a plain 404 is a little cheap imho and there should be some more helpful text for newbies. alas, milkymist was always tough for newbites. if you survive here you survive anywhere :-)
<wolfspra1l> and no, fpgatools is not much better today, also just experimental
<wolfspra1l> but I will never delete it for sure, worst case there will be a note in the README in case it goes nowhere
<wolfspra1l> it's pouring cats and dogs in beijing right now, so tomorrow the roads will be flooded - yay! :-)
<wolfspra1l> cde: if you have questions about fpgatools, please let me know as I need to collect some to write the FAQ...
<wolfspra1l> that would be very helpful - thanks!
<lekernel> wolfspra1l: reconsidered your "no documentation - read the source" line? :)
<wolfspra1l> yes, of course
<wolfspra1l> that was just at the beginning
<wolfspra1l> making the start easy is my real passion
<wolfspra1l> if it's not easy to get started, it doesn't work
<wolfspra1l> but nothing works today, so no need to waste time looking at it except to ask questions maybe...
<cde> wolfspra1l: oh, it's not so though. the IRC channel is quite helpful :) I'll be sure to ask here if I have questions
<cde> *tough
<cde> what are the major blocking points in fpgatools today, that is areas that need assistance?
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<wolfspra1l> if you are a good C programmer, you can start playing with the code today
<wolfspra1l> the next working items are more or less describe in the todo, as
<wolfspra1l> more routing switches
<wolfspra1l> more inter-tile connections
<wolfspra1l> more iob and lut configurations
<wolfspra1l> auto-crc
<wolfspra1l> better autotester
<wolfspra1l> all of this leading to the first simple 'design' (=bitstream) that can load and run in a physical slx9 successfully, something as simple as an AND gate or so
<wolfspra1l> that's the next milestone
<wolfspra1l> after that is reached - fix loose ends everywhere, start with clocks, dcm/pll
<wolfspra1l> and then simple reusable design elements
<wolfspra1l> then support for larger xc6 chips, maybe something with a ftg256 or fgg484 packaging
<cde> hmm I don't have an slx9 at hand, however the slx45 should do I guess. has the bitstream format been reverse-engineered yet?
<wolfspra1l> I will definitely want to try it myself
<wolfspra1l> and/or switch to the xc7a100
<wolfspra1l> that's all months out though, just describing the roadmap
<wolfspra1l> no it won't "do", because there is a lot of work everywhere
<wolfspra1l> like months full-time
<wolfspra1l> you can join if you like but pretty much nothing works today or soon
<lekernel> if that works, then it'll be better than DARPA-funded jbits :)
<wolfspra1l> I will continue with the slx9 until at least let's say 10% of the features of that chip are really working well with fpgatools
<wolfspra1l> better more
<wolfspra1l> it makes no sense for me to jump to larger chips early on
<wolfspra1l> only slows me down
<wpwrak> and costs more money when you fry them :)
<wolfspra1l> and the bigger ones don't come in qfp144 packaging, and and and
<cde> how hard would it be to fry an fpga through incorrect configuration?
<wolfspra1l> but even if the slx9 is working well, (well=10%), going to say the slx45 is at least another full-time month of work
<wolfspra1l> the overall structure is the same, and a lot of stuff is reusable, but the whole thing needs to grow and there are many new/different corner cases, new features, etc.
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<wolfspra1l> and that wont' just magically appear by changing an integer somewhere from '9' to '45'
<wolfspra1l> probably relatively easy to fry one
<wolfspra1l> but I shall have more real-world data on that soon
<cde> you seem very pessimistic! don't be :D
<wolfspra1l> I would think that if you configure the routing bits badly, electrical overload may flow in all sorts of directions
<wolfspra1l> I'm an enternal optimist, but I try to describe this in the most realistic way
<wolfspra1l> you are very welcome to come in and help
<wolfspra1l> from a 10% working slx9 to a 10% working slx45 is 1+ months full-time work
<wolfspra1l> that is a fact
<wolfspra1l> not pessimistic or optimistic
<wolfspra1l> it's developing nicely btw
<wpwrak> wolfgang is an optimist - by expecting the worst, he hopes for pleasant surprises :)
<wolfspra1l> I learned an enormous amount already
<wolfspra1l> yes
<wolfspra1l> you can join today
<wolfspra1l> I think you mainly need 2 things to make a significant contribution:
<wolfspra1l> 1) plenty of time
<wolfspra1l> 2) good C programming skills
<wolfspra1l> that's all
<cde> well I'm currently on vacation, for only for the rest of week. after that I'll have much less free time
<wolfspra1l> I can supply you with cheap slx9 testing boards if we make it there in the next weeks hopefully, at cost
<wolfspra1l> there you go :-)
<wolfspra1l> so just wait, and ping me once in a while :-)
<wolfspra1l> that's real life, perfectly fine
<Fallenou> 14:34 < wolfspra1l> you can join today < reminds me TV ads
<cde> ok. I'll see what I can decipher of the source code in the meantime ;)
<wolfspra1l> Fallenou: and look, the mmu fits as well
<wolfspra1l> :-)
<Fallenou> fits in what ?
<wolfspra1l> I was playing on the TV ad
<wolfspra1l> those knife ads
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<Fallenou> hehe
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<cde> I vaguely remember there is a working project for compiling bitstreams for the Spartan 3. or is my memory wrong?
<wolfspra1l> sorry can't help
<wolfspra1l> all I know is historic and I purged it from my mind
<Fallenou> are you still drawning in paper sheets ?
<wolfspra1l> getting better, more and more running in sw now :-)
<Fallenou> hehe =)
<wolfspra1l> routing now, more routing
<wolfspra1l> there is so much routing in the chip
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<cde> hmm, has the infrared support been done?
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<cde> ok. I was afraid my remote wasn't working ;)
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<cde> is there a repository for the datasheets for all ICs on the M1?
<wpwrak> sort of. you can find links here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM
<cde> awesome!
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<cde> hmm the micro ddr is capable of running at 200 mhz, are we using it at that frequency?
<cde> *micron
<kristianpaul> i think ng uses no lekernel ?
<kristianpaul> or at least 160mhz
<lekernel> ng runs the ddr at 166MHz, ys
<lekernel> 333Mbps per data pin
<cde> that's twice the frequency of the cpu? what a wierd coincidence
<cde> (or maybe not! ;)
<lekernel> yes, I'm using a doubled and phase aligned clock
<lekernel> phase alignment enables low-latency clock domain transfers
<cde> btw is there a trick for data transfer between clock domaine A and B where B is between 1 and 2 the frequency of A ?
<lekernel> DQS is not used for reading of course, but according to the micron datasheet you only lose about 60ps of timing budget. it's a small price to pay to avoid 1) a big design mess 2) a good 2 cycles of additional read latency for using this imbecilic signal
<lekernel> #1 of course encompasses the fact that the read latency becomes unpredictable, which adds to the difficulty of scheduling transfers
<lekernel> I pity the Intel engineers :)
<lekernel> cde: you need some phase alignment, and then sample the all data with sufficient setup/hold time.
<lekernel> without phase alignment, you need double latching (sometimes included in a FIFO control system), which adds a lot of latency
<cde> thanks
<lekernel> and that latency varies, of course, depending on what phase the two clocks happen to have when data enters the FIFO
<lekernel> in short - it's great that micron guarantees a tight clock-to-DQS skew for the parts we're using
<lekernel> I hope we can find DDR3 parts with similar specs for the M3...
<lekernel> the point of phase alignment (and integer frequency ratios) is to avoid this technique, which adds latency and unpredictability
<cde> doesn't the artix 7 have a built-in memory controller? that could be useful
<lekernel> it has an undocumented "phaser", which handles some DQS- and read/write leveling-related gory details
<lekernel> we won't need read/write leveling on the M3 since we are connecting individual chips to the FPGA (which also increases the page hit rate), at an expense of increased I/Os utilization
<lekernel> and I hope to get rid of DQS problems in a similar way (still need to read some datasheets...)
<cde> btw http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/ddr2/TN4723.pdf in case you haven't seen it
<lekernel> ftp://ftp.macrogroup.ru/DigiEl/Xilinx/XLX_Seminar_NewElectronics/7series_Clocking_SelectIO_Tech_Module_Thomas_Klein.pdf
<lekernel> scroll down for phaser info
<cde> it looks like the phaser is primarily for meeting the very precise ddr2/3 timing requirements? other interfaces (hdmi, ...) will not require it
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<lekernel> hdmi data rates per pin are the same or higher than ddr2/3
<lekernel> the fundamental problems with ddr is that you have a lot more signals, and data can go both ways (eg DRAM component answers a read request that was transmitted from the fpga, as opposed to a unidirectional data flow in hdmi)
<cde> lattice also has a DDR3 ip core, I guess it costs money like other vendors (and is not open-source)
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<lekernel> reading lattice paper p. 20
<lekernel> interesting way of transferring from DQS to system clock
<lekernel> it actually avoids that annoying FIFO...
<lekernel> not usable on xilinx arch though (I'd even bet someone patented this...)
<lekernel> this scores another point for lattice. too bad their software is so horrible.
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