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<cluxter> hi
<cluxter> is the Neo900 project still alive?
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<Joerg-Neo900> though we could use some more help
<cluxter> alright thanks
<cluxter> what's the status more precisely?
<Joerg-Neo900> [2017-06-11 Sun 12:48:09] <ubizzy> Hi everyone. Does anyone knows what is the status of neo900?
<cluxter> thank you Joerg-Neo900
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<wpwrak> ravelo: sure. both should work:
<wpwrak> the simple one is actually a bit better because it doesn't pick up cvt/GTA04b7.mod
<wpwrak> but the more complex one will find footprints anywhere and only needs to be told about submodules
<wpwrak> this is even more elegant (and deeper into git ;-)
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<Joerg-Neo900> wpwrak: great! thanks!
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<sn0wmonster> what's the timeline on being able to order a working device?
<sn0wmonster> still a year+ away?
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<sn0wmonster> ty
<enyc> sn0wmonster: can you take on becoming web//communications person ?
<sn0wmonster> sounds like something right up my alley.
<sn0wmonster> reading the log chain
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<Joerg-Neo900> I'm very reluctant to publicly guess any timelines, they are not at all under my control, so it turned out.
<Joerg-Neo900> just a few hours ago I had a look at our git, particularly*
<Joerg-Neo900> and I wondered if anybody would like to simply change a 2 text lines of "embedded news/status" on frontpage every week
<sn0wmonster> i can handle that happily
<Joerg-Neo900> if only it was a "this week nothing at all happened"
<sn0wmonster> i know how it is. i'm on month 18 of #taskhive
<sn0wmonster> most popular FAQ is always going to start with "when"
<sn0wmonster> second most popular is "are you dead"
<sn0wmonster> the answer to both are usually "no"
<Joerg-Neo900> the "difficult" part: that person needs to poll the info from me and others, prolly here in irc
<Joerg-Neo900> yep, indeed
<sn0wmonster> i just want to say this
<sn0wmonster> i left #CopperheadOS on OFTC because i stopped believing in what they're doing
<Joerg-Neo900> though I wasn't sure about my own state during last 4 weeks
<sn0wmonster> i have come a long way since i came to freenode
<sn0wmonster> but i am positive now that we need a *device* that can be controlled, not just software on an uncontrollable blackbox
<Joerg-Neo900> that's *exactly* the point
<sn0wmonster> yea, i get the point just fine. it's something i would love to support any way i can.
<Joerg-Neo900> there's no free software on quirky closed locked down hardware
<enyc> aiui once proto_v2 is laid out and made, assuming it is 'workable' then there is possibility to give a really good news article / status / 'plan for completion' at that point
<enyc> but aiui there are snags over layout and checking to be resolved before that can happen
<sn0wmonster> Q: Why is the repo on your website only? if i'm not mistaken...
<sn0wmonster> github is a massive resource of people working on projects and looking for projects to work on.
<sn0wmonster> i understand the interest in freedom and operating on free systems, but it's also a bit self-defeating to close it off too
<sn0wmonster> any issues with having these repos on github?
<Joerg-Neo900> enyc: with wpwrak's help those should get sorted for good definitely this week, unless some new obstacle arises
<sn0wmonster> also, what license is the Neo900 being made under?
<sn0wmonster> is it a for-profit corporation selling it with code that is "source-available", or is it actually free and open schematics and everything for anyone to copy on their own?
<Joerg-Neo900> github is too heavy, and also particularly the www git is our website and that isn't 100% "open", it's legally binding for me and thus has to be entirely under my control
<sn0wmonster> i'm not sure what legally binding means, but we don't have to go through this at this moment if you're busy
<sn0wmonster> you mean because of accepting donations/preorders?
<Joerg-Neo900> legally binding means: there's a webshop that references to non-webshop pages, all on, and I'm respinsible for any promises and statements (and trademark violations and whatnot) on that site
<sn0wmonster> take what we've done with #RZZT. it's set up to receive funding/donations for development of taskhive (and other things), but taskhive itself is not RZZT's property nor under its control.
<Joerg-Neo900> Neo900 UG is a commercial company with liabilities, starting with "impressum" and not ending at trademark violations and other rules about fair competition etc
<sn0wmonster> so there is no way to influence RZZT through malicious prosecution, government NSLs, etc to make taskhive go away
<sn0wmonster> i understand, buti think you should distance yourself from some elements of it, assuming it's open source
<sn0wmonster> like, hardware-wise, it's probably fine, but the software development -- does that need to be hosted entirely on your site and developed only by you and who you say?
<Joerg-Neo900> it's just a website
<enyc> in any case be good to post some sort of news soon =)
<Joerg-Neo900> who has a FOSS website anyway? except us, a tiny bit
<sn0wmonster> i believe in utilizing every resource around me, while not compromising on goals and beliefs
<sn0wmonster> (e.g. don't use Gmail, but github mirroring is fine)
<sn0wmonster> anyway, i'm gonna get more familiar with the site and i'd love some info on how to get in here and post something like updates
<Joerg-Neo900> anyway it's just a website, and just git. Doesn't matter where it's *hosted*
<Joerg-Neo900> when I run the git server on my own box, I have so much more control over it than on github - at least in theory and when I knew more than just shit about git at large
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry have to run, RL calling, shops closing
<Joerg-Neo900> BBL
<Joerg-Neo900> post updates: I guess there are ways to send 'patches' by e.g. email, isn't that what they usually do e.g. on kernel repo via LKML?
<atk> yes
<Joerg-Neo900> please ask wpwrak, he's the git crack
<Joerg-Neo900> I have no damn clue
<sn0wmonster> will do
<atk> linux kernel development is primarily done via patches sent over email
<Joerg-Neo900> nither of git nor of web design
<atk> I can also answer git questions :P
<sn0wmonster> wpwrak, how does one go about making updates to the page about progress?
<sn0wmonster> atk, good! i have many. i mainly use github, not git.
<sn0wmonster> i find the branch switching to be -- confusing
<sn0wmonster> since i am highly used to SFTP environments where *all* possible files are there, not just what you want to work on immediately
<Joerg-Neo900> so do I ;-P
<atk> sn0wmonster: git gives you all possible files
<atk> sn0wmonster: just in the tree at the current state
<atk> alternative branches which contain completely different histories are possible, but not encouraged and generally confusing.
<sn0wmonster> that's what i want though, because sometimes i want the gh-pages branch of a repo so i can update the github page and not the project code
<atk> ah, gh-pages
<sn0wmonster> but switching branches and cloning doesn't update my local files sometimes
<sn0wmonster> anyway, not important :D
<atk> gh-pages makes things confusing
<sn0wmonster> indeed
<atk> gh-pages is a perversion of how git should be used
<sn0wmonster> for now, before diving in too deep, i'll figure out how to update the site with sexy notes to all those who want the scoobiedoo on the 9eo
<atk> git clone should only be used for when you want to initially set up a local copy of a repository
<atk> not in a repository
<atk> sn0wmonster: how are you switching branches, and how are you trying to update them to the latest remote branch?
<Joerg-Neo900> ask dos1 about that stuff (pelican etc)
<atk> basically, your local copy of a remote branch and the remote branch are distinct, and generally for cleanliness avoid ever committing anything to your local copy of the remote branch until you get a grasp of git
<Joerg-Neo900> the readme is by him, as is the concept basing on pelican
<atk> and especially so if it's someone else's remote branch, because that can cause you to lose commits and get into sticky situations
<atk> sn0wmonster: I can highly recommend a read of the gitworkflows man page
<Joerg-Neo900> grr this used to work:
<sn0wmonster> ty Joerg-Neo900
<sn0wmonster> so i should ask dos1 how to edit the site to make update notes?
<Joerg-Neo900> "Connection to Server Refused" :-S
<Joerg-Neo900> ask dos1 about pelican, site structure, markup language, and how git drives pelican (or was it the other way around?)
<sn0wmonster> oh it's one of those jobs eh
<sn0wmonster> we do that for Taskhive too
<Joerg-Neo900> him and how900
<sn0wmonster> we're using Sphinx
<Joerg-Neo900> BBL
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<ubizzy> Hi everyone, please read until the end! I am a little bit confused of who, when and how neo900 is going. Were we are now and what's left to complete. Who is responsible for what... (most of this are caused by my lack of time to follow IRC regulary)
<ubizzy> Back in 2013 I've made my first donation to neo900 because I belive in freedom (there is not much to teel about this, and if you are reading this is because you too). We need more iniciatives like this and I also know that just a few make the hard work and the major part just go in the flow. During all this time I went to the flow, but with a particularity, if I cannot help with my work, I should donate money to pay for those who spend
<ubizzy> their time (away form family and regular job) to build these iniciatives. THEY DESERV TO BE PAID!
<ubizzy> You may have a different perspective here, but my vision is that, if we don't know the exact point of the project, several other people that may help with some smaller tasks wont even know that they could help. Here is some concerns I think we need to write it down so everybody can know exactly what we got and what's missing (fell free to give your opinion):
<ubizzy> => Blog - we need a person/team who produces news and info about the project
<ubizzy> => Newsletter - we need a person/team who gather all the news and info of the week/month/... and create a newsletter
<ubizzy> => Recreate the webesite - (I suppose it is hard to maintain, please correct me if I am wrong)
<ubizzy> => GIT - (It seems we have some issues here, please correct me if I am wrong)
<ubizzy> => Donate - donate to help the development
<ubizzy> => ...
<ubizzy> Knowing this, even for those who don't follow the IRC channel will know what they can do to help.
<ubizzy> So I want to help, I am available to rebuild the website and blog to be easily updatable by anyone. I may also offer the hosting for them if that's the case. I am also available to build a webapp that we may use to write down several notes categorized by subject that can be used by individuals or teams that will produce content to be used on newsletters, blog, site, ... (or any other ideas you may have here)
<ubizzy> What you think about all this?
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<craftyguy> DocScrutinizer05: I saw your project status update from a few days ago in the IRC logs. I would like to try and help create/maintain a semi-regular newsletter informing folks of current statuses. I have some experience working in github and authoring docs in markdown (which I believe is what you said the site is written with?)
<craftyguy> In any case, I'm a fast learner and really believe in what you are trying to do here. Establishing regular communications with supporters and interested parties may help you get the additional development support you need. At the very least, I won't mind trying. Worst case, I 'waste' my time here.
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, that's correct afaict. please see
<craftyguy> Joerg-Neo900: Thank you, I will take a look.
<Joerg-Neo900> and the help you, ubizzy and sn0wmonster offer is more than welcome and highly appreciated. Actually the most important task newsletter of sorts, on a at least biweekly basis. The rest is technical details that actually should just work, only I have no clue about them
<craftyguy> Sure, I would rather help out with some of the more mundane tasks like creating a newsletter to free others up for doing the actual important work. But I believe that having regular communications is important for getting additional support and keeping existing supporters (financial or otherwise) interested
<Joerg-Neo900> ubizzy: let me comment your list of points. "=> Blog" *yes*, exactly what craftyguy also jus said, and I confirmed. Urgently needed and I have to confess I grew silenced with the bureaucratic workload of running a company. A oity since the communication was part of the fun in the project initially
<Joerg-Neo900> craftyguy: I couldn't have phrased it better
<craftyguy> Joerg-Neo900: just tell me how I can help :)
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<Joerg-Neo900> tell *your* story as you see it and you think others might feel alike and be interested in similar answers. Don't hesitate to pester me for details
<craftyguy> Sure, I am leaving tomorrow for a work trip to Germany, and will have more than enough time on the plane to write up a blog post on that subject :D
<Joerg-Neo900> I think hardly anything is more authentic and has more credibility than *users* telling what their week been like regarding the project and what they asked the core team/me and which answers they gathered or what they learned or maybe even triggered
<Joerg-Neo900> Fermany? where?
<Joerg-Neo900> Germany even
<craftyguy> Frankfurt, for International Supercomputing conference :)
<Joerg-Neo900> wow, I might be mildly interested to join
<Joerg-Neo900> Ffm usn't too far from my location
<craftyguy> Where are you located?
<Joerg-Neo900> Nuernberg
<Joerg-Neo900> anyway back to ubizzy... "=> Newsletter" seems 8/10 similar to blog
<craftyguy> Oh that's much closer to Frankfurt than my home. It's a 11hr flight from the Western US coast :S
<Joerg-Neo900> "=> Recreate the webesite" . really not that important, I think it just works the way it is, what's needed is the weekly small update so occasional users notice the site is alive
<Joerg-Neo900> "=> GIT" though I wouldn't disagree git gave us some headaches at times, I don't consider that an issue which holds much potential for improvement. The main trouble is lack of experience/competence with at least myself, and git
<Joerg-Neo900> "=> Donate" always welcome. Long term perspective we need a kicjstarter or similar, I think
<Joerg-Neo900> craftyguy: yeah, like 40 min flight, maybe 90 min by train
<craftyguy> regarding git, consider moving the project to github or gitlab. As a relatively newcomer to git myself, I've found the point-click style of those git frontends to be quite helpful in easing me in
<craftyguy> BTW, sorry for the basic question (I literally learned about this project a couple days ago), but who is DocScrutinizer05, I would like to reference this conversation on IRC from a few days ago:
<Joerg-Neo900> how would that help with website design?
<Joerg-Neo900> our git is stictly to hold the web raw texts
<craftyguy> oh, it wouldn't I guess. source control isn't typically associated with an ease in designing (just managing bits for implementation)
<craftyguy> got it. on the other hand, there's something like github pages:
<Joerg-Neo900> I still fail to see *why* we need git for managing the website, to start with
<Joerg-Neo900> came in with pelican which in turn came in via the microblog afaik
<craftyguy> quite a few projects use that. you'll probably want *some* source control for managing the files associated with your site, that's SW engineering standard operating proceedure. whether its git, svn, manual archiving, or ??.. that's up to preference
<Joerg-Neo900> I was not keen about getting website files into git from beginning, since I knew this would kick me out of any website maintenance thanks to my ignorance about how git works
<Joerg-Neo900> we have no "software" on this site
<Joerg-Neo900> it's plain HTML created from markup by pelican aiui
<Joerg-Neo900> we tried to avoid JS as much as possible, on purpose
<ubizzy> Hi guys, it is a static website creator
<craftyguy> I loosely use the term software, but it can be extended to source files (html, latex, whatever) that are not standalone applications or the like
<ubizzy> What exactly do you need to do with the wbesite? Change the layout?
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry, not my domain of expertise. I think we had *less* trouble without git
<craftyguy> it's generally a good idea to have some accountability and history preservation when dealing with website source files. git is one way, there are many other ways too :)
<Joerg-Neo900> I *never* seen a "oh damn let's roll back this patch" in our content
<Joerg-Neo900> neither a git diff or git blame
<ubizzy> not usual, but very helpfull on large teams
<Joerg-Neo900> that's arguable. From a jurisdiction point of view, I'm not too happy with git
<craftyguy> haha, point taken. accountability is also important to some folks/projects. but this project is small enough that it probably doesn't matter too much
<ubizzy> What exactly we need to change on the website?
<Joerg-Neo900> well, when it comes to german authorities, plausible deniability beats accountability hands down ;-P
<Joerg-Neo900> I don't think the website needs any changes
<ubizzy> ok then
<Joerg-Neo900> the website needs at least bi-weekly obvious updates so the casual drive-v<y reader notices it's a live site
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<ubizzy> I just won't be able to produce content, but I am able to update it on the current website
<Joerg-Neo900> I don't mind if that's wording of the headline, or another photo for the background. The structure and 'fixed' content needs little to no changes
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<Joerg-Neo900> producing content is the whole point though. *I* can't do it
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm abysmal in text production. The result is usually fine but takes weeks where others need hours
<ubizzy> so if someone send me the content I will be responsible to add it on the website and help with the newsletter also
<Joerg-Neo900> you witnessed, even produced the events for quite some content of the sort that chages every week: you and sn0wmonster and craftyguy offered to take care about news
<Joerg-Neo900> that's already the first news
<Joerg-Neo900> if you want to produce a whole page long newsletter, write your story how you came here, why, and what you expect and found and think about that
<Joerg-Neo900> the news from my side are: been completely knocked out by health issues for 3.5 weeks, recovering slowly since 1.5 weeks, still not on par. Today I think wpwrak provided a means to work around the footprint issue which blocked the layout contracting so far (besides my sickness), so I expect the layouter gets contracted this week, for good now
<Joerg-Neo900> find more details in IRC-log (see /topic)
<Joerg-Neo900> last ~ 2 days
<Joerg-Neo900> that's qzuite some stuff for a two liner news flash on website frontpage headline
<ubizzy> ok, I'll *try* to make a small text and send it to you.
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<Joerg-Neo900> could already make for a weekly news
<ubizzy> Sorry to hear about your health problem. If I can do anything to help, don't hesitate!
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<Joerg-Neo900> well, it's mainly about workload (not only directly related to Neo900 project and Neo900 UG aka company. and about the stress that comes from not getting stuff accomplished in due time
<Joerg-Neo900> so everything useful you do will help. Most of all and most immediately: news
<ubizzy> So let's suppose this issue is solved (weekly news), what is the next main issue
<Joerg-Neo900> a few hours ago I pondered how could if we had a wiki
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<Joerg-Neo900> the hardware is there, needs a maintainer
<Joerg-Neo900> for the wiki. I again have no clue and no spare time for that
<Joerg-Neo900> if you're savvy on installing and runnung a wiki, tell me what packages you need installed and I'll do it and create the needed accounts for you
<ubizzy> I'll search for a good wiki software and will let you know
<craftyguy> Where should I submit my newsletter (or blog?) article?
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