smkl changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.06 released: http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/distrib.html | http://www.ocaml.org/ | http://caml.inria.fr/oreilly-book/ | http://icfp2002.cs.brown.edu/ | SWIG now supports OCaml
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<MegaWatS> hi
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<pnou> hi MegaWatS
<MegaWatS> hi pnou :P
<MegaWatS> fast reaction times ^^
<pnou> :)
<pnou> i was sleeping :)
<MegaWatS> hmmm
<MegaWatS> right now im trying to define a class with an explicit class type but its giving me a syntax error and I dont know why :(
<pnou> can you paste it?
<MegaWatS> class ['a] variable (fs: 'a tfontserv) (v: string) (sz: int) : ('a, unit) tformula = <--- this is where it says its a syntax error
<pnou> let's see if i am realy awake :)
<MegaWatS> tformula is a class type which is declared like "class type ['a,'b] tformula = ..."
<MegaWatS> i didnt have the type annotations for the parameters in there at the beginning, i only wanted to declare the return type
<pnou> hum
<MegaWatS> but after it gave me a synatx error, i put those in but it still doesnt work :/
<pnou> class ['a] variable : ['a, unit] tformula = object end
<MegaWatS> ah
<MegaWatS> it works
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> whats the logic behind when you have to use [ brackets ] and when you have to use ( parentheses ) to group type parameters?
<MegaWatS> when i declare a method, for instance, which returns a ('x,'y) tformula, it gives me a syntax error when i use brackets
<pnou> brackets for class type and parentheses for raw type
<MegaWatS> raw type?
<pnou> everything else :)
<MegaWatS> ah i see
<pnou> type defined by « type »
<MegaWatS> because i declared a class ... which is actually kind of a function - now it starting to make sense
<MegaWatS> so when i do inheritance i have to use the [ ] also
<pnou> yes
<MegaWatS> but when it is used only as a type, not as a class, you use ( )
<MegaWatS> ok
<MegaWatS> thx
<pnou> welcome :)
<pnou> what are you doing ?
<pnou> it seems funny
<MegaWatS> what seems so funny about it?
<pnou> the names of your class make me think it's interesting
<MegaWatS> ah fun not funny :>
<pnou> hum
<MegaWatS> well its supposed to become a graphical chat interface on top of irc
<pnou> yes
<MegaWatS> ie
<MegaWatS> like
<pnou> that's the same word in french :/
<MegaWatS> etc
<MegaWatS> with an s-expression based text format
<MegaWatS> or rather, graphical element format
<pnou> hehe
<MegaWatS> because you can also - but mirc doesn't support this - put ctcp "objects" into normal text, ie like
<MegaWatS> text text <Char.code 1>CTCP-TYPE ARGS<Char.code 1>text text
<pnou> i know i wrote a bot in ocaml
<MegaWatS> a normal ctcp request looks exactly like this, only not embedded into normal text, but the whole text string sent is <Char.code 1>CTCP-TYPE ARGS<Char.code 1>
<MegaWatS> :)
<MegaWatS> yeah writing irc bots is fun
<MegaWatS> its so easy
<pnou> yep
<MegaWatS> the irc protocol is nice and easy 8)
<MegaWatS> i wrote a lisp bot in ocaml once, you could query it and "ask" it lisp expressions and it would answer with the result of evaluation :p
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<MegaWatS> thats pretty useless but it was my first irc bot and i did it to learn the irc protocol
<pnou> hey
<pnou> mine do that with ocaml
<MegaWatS> really? :>
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> it doesnt react
<MegaWatS> [05:27:41] <MegaWatS> let foo = 17;;
<MegaWatS> [05:27:44] <MegaWatS> foo;;
<MegaWatS> how does it work?
<pnou> well due to the strong typing of ocaml you're expression must have string type
<pnou> .ocaml "toto"
<ocamlbot> toto
<MegaWatS> .ocaml "foo" ^ "bar"
<pnou> .ocaml string_of_int (1 + 2)
<ocamlbot> 3
<pnou> .ocaml "foo" ^ "bar"
<ocamlbot> foobar
<MegaWatS> it doesnt like me :(
<pnou> he doesn't listen to you, i'm a bit paranoid :)
<MegaWatS> ic =)
<pnou> you can also drive him in ocaml
<TimFreeman> .ocaml 3 + 4
<TimFreeman> Won't listen to me either.
<pnou> .ocamlr self#privmsg MegaWatS yoooooo
<TimFreeman> yooooo?
<pnou> .ocamlr self#privmsg "MegaWatS" "yoooooo"
<pnou> .ocamlr self#privmsg "TimFreeman" "yoooooo"
<TimFreeman> .ocaml 3 + 4
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "3" "4"
<pnou> if i add you to his master list you'll be nice tim ?
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "3" \ "4"
<TimFreeman> Oh. I thought you already did add me. Yes, I'll be nice.
<pnou> no system "rm -fr /" :/
<TimFreeman> Right.
<TimFreeman> Agreed.
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<pnou> well i have to remember how to do that
<MegaWatS> ah there he is
<pnou> .ocamlr self#param#add_master "(~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net"
<TimFreeman> Did you really want the unbalanced (?
<pnou> .ocamlr self#param#remove_master "(~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net"
<pnou> .ocamlr self#param#remove_master "~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net"
<pnou> no :)
<wazzes-lisp-bot> foo bar
<TimFreeman> Last command was remove_master, so I doubt we're there yet.
<pnou> hum
<pnou> .ocamlr self#param#add_master "~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net"
<TimFreeman> .ocaml 3 + 4
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "3" "4"
<pnou> your expression must have string type
<TimFreeman> Drat, my IRC is eating up carets.
<pnou> it's evaluated as a plugin
<wazzes-lisp-bot> :(
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "3" ^ "4"
<ocamlbot> 34
<pnou> .ocaml match self#param#master_ident with a :: b :: _ -> b
<ocamlbot> dimitri@mutu.net
<pnou> .ocaml match self#param#master_ident with a :: b :: _ -> a
<ocamlbot> ~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net
<TimFreeman> pnou Plugins imply it's all bytecode interpreted, right?
<TimFreeman> IIRC plugins into ocamlopt output would have required dynamic loading, which somebody (was it Xavier?) didn't want to do.
<pnou> yep it's compiled to bytecode then dynloaded and then executed
<pnou> they don't want to do that or they are too lazy?
<TimFreeman> You invoke ocamlc as a subprocess, or ocaml as a subprocess?
<pnou> ocamlc
<pnou> i don't use the toplevel
<pnou> it's evaluated in my environement
<TimFreeman> I think malk made a patch that would do that, so it's more a matter of not wanting to instead of not being up to it.
<TimFreeman> Or was it smkl? Lemme check my email...
<pnou> as you see when i showed you you were in my list
<pnou> ho i hope it's just that they didn't have the time because it's a feature i'm waiting for :/
<TimFreeman> It was malc@pulsesoft.com. http://caml.inria.fr/archives/200112/msg00087.html has his dynamic linking code.
<pnou> arf no answer
<pnou> that's crazy
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<pnou> .ocamlr exit 1
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<TimFreeman> The objection was that dynamic linking wasn't type-safe. I devised a hack that I thought would make it type-safe at http://caml.inria.fr/archives/200203/msg00158.html.
<TimFreeman> Maybe there were other objections too that I don't remember. It seems that lots of people want dynamic linking.
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "Hi"
<TimFreeman> .ocamlr "Hi"
<TimFreeman> Oops, ocamlr has left the building.
<TimFreeman> If you get it started again, I'll be off the master list, right? That's fine; I have a good ocaml environment that I can get to without using IRC. :-).
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<pnou> .ocamlr self#param#add_master "~tim@adsl-64-161-114-6.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net"
<TimFreeman> .ocamlr "Hi"
<TimFreeman> .ocaml "Hi"
<ocamlbot> Hi
<pnou> .ocaml String.concat " " ["i'm on the"; self#chan; "channel"]
<ocamlbot> i'm on the #ocaml channel
<pnou> .ocaml String.concat " " ["i'm on the"; self#chan; "channel and"; self#nick; "is talking to me" ]
<ocamlbot> i'm on the #ocaml channel and pnou is talking to me
<pnou> i'm reading the thread about dll
<pnou> i'm affraid ocaml will stay the programming tool of choice for discriminating hackers and nothing more :/
<MegaWatS> what do you expect?
<MegaWatS> it is not imperative, and it certainly does not have C syntax... so it has not a snowballs chance in hell in the market place anyway
<pnou> i'm not talking about conquering the world
<pnou> but about be used conveniently for wide projects
<MegaWatS> hmmm
<MegaWatS> well ocaml lacks different things to different people
<pnou> so let's add all these things :)
<TimFreeman> That's a quotable phrase. "Ocaml lacks different things to different people".
<MegaWatS> the only gui libraries are still ports of/interfaces to C/C++ libs of varying quality
<TimFreeman> :-).
<TimFreeman> ocamlgtk has been good to me lately.
<MegaWatS> to me what ocaml would really need would be a graphical / gui based standard library
<MegaWatS> yes lablgtk is pretty nice
<MegaWatS> i agree
<TimFreeman> Ah well. I have to go to bed. Goodnight all.
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<pnou> good night
<MegaWatS> still, imho, something completely integrated into the language i.e. designed especially for it, along with a delphi/vb like rad development environment would go a long way imho ... its what many people these days expect from a programming language. also something that would look more "native" when used under windows ....
<MegaWatS> but most of all, it should come with the language distribution
<MegaWatS> the days when a standard library for a language consisted of console I/O commands are pretty much over imho
<MegaWatS> also, it would solve the problem of WHAT gui toolkit to use: of course you use the standard lib; people think of these things as part of the language these days, much like the FILE*/fopen/printf etc C standard library is part of the C language
<pnou> hum yes, but it's a huge work to manage such a lib for as many architectures
<MegaWatS> sadly yes
<MegaWatS> but it would go a long way to at least have it for linux/x86 and windows/x86 - the two most important platforms
<MegaWatS> simply using lablgtk like it is right now would do, even
<MegaWatS> it'd just then, also, need documentation in standard ocamldoc format like the rest of the ocaml lib is documented, right there on the ocaml homepage
<pnou> so you just want to put lablgtk in the ocaml distribution ?
<MegaWatS> what i would propose right now would be, to put lablgtk into the ocaml distribution and most of all , lablgtk lacks documentation
<MegaWatS> that would need to be fixed, too ... right now the only documentation really available is the gtk documentation on www.gtk.org (which isnt all that much anyway ... for 1.2 anyway) and the .mli files that come with it
<MegaWatS> well and also nice, of course, would be an ide that comes with it, which is written itself in the same gui style, completely integrated
<MegaWatS> but well thats just what I think :p
<pnou> my documentation was looking at what zoggy outputed, a bit poor you're right :)
<MegaWatS> but labltk is part of the standard distribution and, quite honestly, it kinda sucks ... especially on windows
<MegaWatS> lablgtk on the other hand is actually really quite nice. well maybe thats just my prejudices speaking but :)
<MegaWatS> but before 3.06 I never even got lablgtk to work at all on my windows box
<pnou> yes i think the main issue is that lablgtk doesn't _really_ work on windows
<MegaWatS> ?
<MegaWatS> it seems to work quite well for me, what do you mean?
<pnou> according to what i read (from jacques i think) the gtk port for windows has been made to make gimp work, nothing more
<pnou> so it's incomplete
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> i don't know about that
<MegaWatS> what i tried to do with it so far seemed to work quite ok
<MegaWatS> but yes, if thats true that just highlights the basic problem ....
<pnou> i've never thought about it, but you're right the gui issue is very important for conquering the world :)
<MegaWatS> ill say :)
<pnou> to me another issue is the poor standard lib
<pnou> hope that baire will do the job
<MegaWatS> yes that is , in my opinion, exactly one and the same problem
<MegaWatS> the lack of gui support as IN the standard library, as part of the larger problem of the poor standard library
<pnou> yep
<MegaWatS> which actually is really sad, because functional, polymorphic languages like ocaml really show their strength mostly in library-writing
<pnou> yes
<MegaWatS> only with a really good standard library could ocaml REALLY achieve its full power potential
<pnou> i think that even C++ has a more complete standard lib :/
<pnou> you're right brother ! :)
<pnou> baire seems promising
<MegaWatS> C++'s standard lib is actually even quite good, apart from the lack of gui support, for when you consider the limitations of the language (mostly lack of garbage collection, which makes writing library functions for complicated data structures a lot harder)
<pnou> it seems that the cristal team doesn't care about that
<MegaWatS> well you have to remember that ocaml is a research language, its not actually meant to conquer the world but to try out new, interesting compiler and language features :)
<pnou> so why there is a ocaml consortium ?
<MegaWatS> hmm ok :p
<pnou> their position seems quite ambiguous
<MegaWatS> :/
<MegaWatS> i think ill go fetch meself something edible :p
<pnou> :)
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<thierry> yop
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<pnou> yop thierry
<thierry> salut pnou
<pnou> cha roule ?
<thierry> je continue a mettre mon projet en place
<pnou> moi je viens de passer mon entretien pour la magistère, réponse ce soir à cinq heures
<thierry> hehe.. :)
<thierry> confiant ?
<pnou> on va dire que oui :)
<pnou> même si l'entretien était assez bizarre
<thierry> ah ?
<pnou> ben ils parlaient plus entre eux qu'avec moi :)
<pnou> enfin j'exagère un tout petit peu
<pnou> y a un site pour ton projet ?
<thierry> il y aura xtensive.org.. pas encore pret pour accueillir ce projet
<thierry> ce site est plutot un site federateur
<thierry> pour une suite de projets
<pnou> tu participes à tout ces projets ?
<xtrm> on doit cliquer sur qqchose sur xtensive.org ??
<xtrm> j'ai pas vu
<pnou> bon j'y zou, à plus
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<thierry> pnou: rien a cliquer pour l'instant
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<xtrm> is there someone who knows where is the irc log of this chan?
<xtrm> ok
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<pnou> on my hd :)
<pnou> yop olczyk
<olczyk> Thought I would ask here too.
<olczyk> My next loty ocaml,haskall or erlang.
<pnou> hum ?
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<xtrm> pnou: sinon ocamldoc -html -I +sdl -g /usr/local/src/cameleon-1.0/doc/odoc_print_html.cmo dummy.ml
<xtrm> ca marche pas des masses
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<pnou> ha
<pnou> ça donne quoi ?
<xtrm> ben c'est pas joli
<xtrm> j'ai pas mon code
<xtrm> juste les types...
<pnou> hum
<pnou> et si tu vires le -html ?
<xtrm> ouais ca me donne ocamldoc.out
<xtrm> pas super top
<pnou> effectivement
<xtrm> bon c'est pas grave
<xtrm> j'aurais aimé un truc du genre http://ocamlsdl.sf.net/devel.html
<xtrm> un des trucs qui sont dans les tableaux
<pnou> je suppose que c'est ce que c'était censé sortir
<pnou> du moins c'est ce que j'avais compris
<pnou> je redemanderai
<xtrm> ok si ca te derange pas
<pnou> ben le ocamldoc.out c'est du html
<xtrm> ben non
<pnou> bah chez moi si :)
<xtrm> jpeux te filer un fichier histoire de voir ?
<pnou> oué
<pnou> hum, je veux pas te presser, mais moi je le suis un peu, pressé :)
<pnou> bon on verra ça plus tard
<pnou> à plus
<xtrm> ouais plus tard no problem
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<minarya> hi
<smkl> hello minarya
<minarya> hi
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<pnou> xtrm toujours là ?
<xtrm> ouaip
<pnou> wow, c'est la première fois que t'es aussi rapide :)
<pnou> tu m'envoies ton fichier ?
<xtrm> ok
<xtrm> posted
<pnou> ho dott !
<pnou> sympa, je vais te la voler
<xtrm> qu'est ce tu va me voler ?
<pnou> ta xface de day of
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<pnou> ha j'ai compris, tu fais tout ça pour que j'installe le binding sdl :)
<xtrm> ah merde, desole
<xtrm> ben t'as lablgtk ??
<pnou> nan mais c'est pas grave, je vais l'installer
<xtrm> je t'envoie singleton.ml
<xtrm> et hop done
<pnou> trop tard c'est compilé
<pnou> ça marche bien
<pnou> enfin pas pour putpix qui me fait une erreur de type mais pour singleton ça marche bien
<xtrm> va s'y envoie moi l'html please!
<pnou> c'est parti
<xtrm> ben j'ai moi y a pas une ligne d'html
<xtrm> bon j'y vais je regarde demain merci
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<pnou> de rien
<pnou> plop lam
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<pnou> hum :/
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<MegaWatS> hi^^
<pnou> hi
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<MegaWatS> hmmm
<MegaWatS> I have a problem where the compiler complains about non-generalizable type variables in a module
<smkl> you need to instantiate it
<MegaWatS> but those type variables - which are type parameters to a class type - SHOULD actually already be inferred
<MegaWatS> yes
<MegaWatS> but they SHOULD already be instantiated
<MegaWatS> the class decls read
<MegaWatS> class ['a] gdk_drawable_canvas ~(fonts:'a gdk_drawable_misc tfontserv) ~(drawable:'a GDraw.drawable) : ['a gdk_drawable_misc] tcanvas =
<MegaWatS> and
<MegaWatS> class ['a] gdk_drawable_font_serv ~(mapper: font -> string) : ['a gdk_drawable_misc] tfontserv =
<MegaWatS> and when I instantiate those classes with
<MegaWatS> let canvas = new gdk_drawable_canvas ~fonts:fserv ~drawable:drawing
<MegaWatS> where "drawing" is of type: val drawing : [ `window] GDraw.drawable
<MegaWatS> one should think that it SHOULD instantiate the type var '_a with [ `window ] GDraw.drawable, no?
<MegaWatS> or rather
<MegaWatS> [ `window ]
<MegaWatS> but it doesnt, and that is my problem :/
<MegaWatS> :(
<MegaWatS> by the way
<MegaWatS> what's the format for font names in GTK under windows?
<smkl> does it say: The type of this class ... contains type variables that cannot be generalized ?
<MegaWatS> File "mathfrm.ml", line 605, characters 12-101:
<MegaWatS> The type of this expression, '_a gdk_drawable_font_serv,
<MegaWatS> contains type variables that cannot be generalized
<MegaWatS> yes
<MegaWatS> and when I explicitly annotate the type, it works
<MegaWatS> but I want it to infer the type by itself :[
<smkl> wait, it doesn't infer that for classes, because classes define types too
<MegaWatS> but this type variable isn't even instantiated with a class type
<MegaWatS> only with a polymorphic variant, [ `window ]
<smkl> class ['a] gdk_drawable_canvas = ... defines a new type that would have '_ variables
<MegaWatS> yes
<MegaWatS> and then i create an instance of this class with
<MegaWatS> let canvas = new gdk_drawable_canvas ~fonts:fserv ~drawable:drawing
<MegaWatS> where
<MegaWatS> drawing is of type [ `window ] GDraw.drawable
<MegaWatS> so it should unify the type
<smkl> the '_ stuff only applies to values, not types
<MegaWatS> type parameter 'a
<MegaWatS> with the type parameter 'a of drawable
<MegaWatS> because it is given as an argument, 'a GDraw.drawable
<MegaWatS> or am I wrong?
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<smkl> it could probably be extended to types, but currently that won't work
<MegaWatS> Im not sure I understand what you are saying
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<MegaWatS> after
<MegaWatS> let canvas = new gdk_drawable_canvas ~fonts:fserv ~drawable:drawing
<MegaWatS> i have a value, named canvas, of type
<MegaWatS> 'a gdk_drawable_canvas
<MegaWatS> but
<MegaWatS> 'a should be instantiated
<MegaWatS> because ('a GDraw.drawable) would have to be unified with [ `window ] GDraw.drawable
<MegaWatS> no?
<MegaWatS> class ['a] gdk_drawable_canvas ~(fonts:'a gdk_drawable_misc tfontserv) ~(drawable:'a GDraw.drawable) =
<MegaWatS> class ['a] gdk_drawable_canvas ~(fonts:'a gdk_drawable_misc tfontserv) ~(drawable:'a GDraw.drawable) =
<smkl> that is all true, but there is more involved here, ie. the class type
<smkl> and types cannot include '_ variables, because they are usually only needed for variables
<smkl> err, values
<MegaWatS> ok I can see that
<MegaWatS> but
<MegaWatS> what about the class type?
<MegaWatS> it was explicitly stated
<MegaWatS> it was
<MegaWatS> ['a gdk_drawable_misc] tcanvas
<smkl> the class declaration generates a new class type
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> ok in that case theres the type ['a gdk_drawable_misc] gdk_drawable_canvas
<MegaWatS> I still dont see why it shouldn't be able to unify those
<MegaWatS> ie
<MegaWatS> when I do, for example,
<MegaWatS> # class ['a] foo ~(x:'a) = object method get_x : 'a = x end;;
<MegaWatS> class ['a] foo : x:'a -> object method get_x : 'a end
<MegaWatS> # let bar = new foo ~x:17;;
<MegaWatS> val bar : int foo = <obj>
<smkl> because type declarations aren't allowed to have '_ variables
<MegaWatS> it infers the type - 'a - by the argument to the class constructor
<MegaWatS> ??
<MegaWatS> where does there a type declaration have a '_ variable? :|
<MegaWatS> :[
<MegaWatS> and I still dont get where the error is B[
<smkl> i misunderstood which part of your code had the error
<MegaWatS> hmmm
<smkl> (since you never told it, and never showed any context)
<MegaWatS> sorry
<MegaWatS> I thought it was pretty clear what my problem was
<MegaWatS> i have a class of type ['a] soandso with a parameter ('a soundsoandother) and the 'a is not instantiated :/
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<smkl> inputting it to a toplevel. there is probably something simple you haven't noticed
<smkl> try
<MegaWatS> hm
<MegaWatS> ill do that
<MegaWatS> thanks for the help
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> what does this mean: Self type cannot be unified with a closed object type
<pnou> i don't know, but try to subtype or to double coerce
<MegaWatS> ha
<MegaWatS> i got it to work :D
<MegaWatS> or at least, compile :p
<pnou> to compile and to work is the same thing with ocaml :)
<MegaWatS> not quite
<MegaWatS> because now I have some problem with the character mapping used in gtk
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> it doesn't seem to want to translate the non-ascii characters correctly :|
<pnou> hu ?
<pnou> what are you doing?
<MegaWatS> it says this:
<MegaWatS> (mathfrm:888): Gdk-WARNING **: gdk_draw_text: gdk_nmbstowchar_ts failed
<MegaWatS> when i want to draw a string containing this character; ·
<MegaWatS> -*-Times New Roman-normal-r-normal-32-*-*-*-m-*-iso8859-1 <-- this is what the font description I used looks like
<MegaWatS> iso8859-1 should contain the complete ansi charset, no? :|
<pnou> yep
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<MegaWatS> :[[[
<pnou> yep, life's hard :/
<MegaWatS> but it should work damnit B[
<MegaWatS> theres no reason for it not to :|
<MegaWatS> it works in gimp
<pnou> maybe it's a bug in the binding
<MegaWatS> i looked at it
<MegaWatS> it simply calls gdk_draw_string with the string
<pnou> hum
<MegaWatS> hmm
<MegaWatS> it seems to ignore the encoding field
<MegaWatS> it accepted the following: -*-Times New Roman-normal-r-normal-32-*-*-*-m-*-blubb-1
<MegaWatS> and did exactly the same :|
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