gl changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.07 ! -- Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~aschmitt/cwn , A tutorial: http://merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ , A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem, Mailing List (best ml ever for any computer language): http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list | http://icfpcontest.org/ !!
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<Snark> slt
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<biopsy> hi
<biopsy> ocaml is rather useless agreed?
<_saint_> biopsy: it depends on what is 'useful' ;)
<biopsy> ah
<biopsy> well said
<biopsy> you sound like a fgt though
<biopsy> no hard feelings
<_saint_> fgt?
<biopsy> yea
<biopsy> faggot
<biopsy> must i repeat
<biopsy> are you a dumass or something
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* vincenz blinks
<vincenz> That's the same guy that game onto c++ cause he aws a newb not knowing anything
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<det> he just did the same thing in #python
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* vincenz palmslaps
<vincenz> He was complaining in #C++ about the #c channel too
* vincenz loves ocaml, loves ocaml, loves ocaml
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<ita> hi all
<Lemmih> Yo
<ita> quick question, what's the correct way of setting a value in an array ? the compiler does not like "numbers.(!j) = Random.int 5;" it seems (unary blah blah blah) ?
<karryall> <- instead of =
<ita> ok, thanks
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<Snark> re
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<seafood> Anyone around?
<seafood> I want to have a little bit of a bitch.
<ita> no ?
<seafood> Is there any reason why ocaml needs and special 'and' syntax to do mutually recursive functions?
<seafood> What I'm really asking is, "Is there a strong implementational (perhaps on the grounds of efficiency) for not allowing mutually recursive functions to be defined in the natural style that they are in Haskell?"
<seafood> Haskell doesn't care _where_ a function definition appears, it can appear after a use.
<seafood> So what's the deal with Ocaml?
<seafood> Did they have a good reason for this?
<karryall> that's probably not for efficiency but because of the typing algorithm I think
<seafood> oh. Really?
<seafood> I didn't think that mattered. It's just Hindley-Milner isn't it?
<vincenz> seafood: in your case the need for 'rec' would drop
<vincenz> and I've heard the recursiveness/non-recursiveness of functions has a big influence on typing
<mellum> The actual reason is that you usually don't want the identifier to be rebound immediately
<seafood> rebound?
<mellum> you want to be able to sat let x = x*2 in let x = x + 34
<seafood> nah. I wasn't talking just about recursion. I was talking about mutual recursion. I actually think that having let's and let rec's separate is a good idea.
<seafood> That's what you're saying right?
<seafood> That in let x = x*2 it's better if the x on the left is not the same as the x on the right.
<mellum> "and" isn't any different. It just modifies scoping, like "rec"
<seafood> i.e. the let is nonrecursive.
<seafood> Oh, I suppose.
<seafood> I'm still not convinced there's any decent reason for this though.
<seafood> But I'm sure there must be!
<karryall> are you sure haskell let you do what you say ? I thought type inference in haskell was similar to ocaml's
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<seafood> I'm talking about top-level declarations of functions.
<seafood> In haskell it _is_ possible to define f = ... g ....
<seafood> and then later define g = .... f ...
<cDlm> eg all lets are implicitly rec
<seafood> Anyway. The reason I ask is that I'm writing a function to print a data structure that is mutually recursive.
<seafood> Surely at some point I'm going to need mutually recursive functions to do this.
<cDlm> does the revised syntax still have differenciation between let and let rec ?
<karryall> cDlm: yes, that's not a matter of syntax
<cDlm> ah ?
<cDlm> couldnt I use let recs for everything in a module ?
<Banana> cDlm: things like let x = 1;; let x = x+1;; would be rejected with implicit let rec
<cDlm> i dont care about that
<cDlm> different values can have different names
<cDlm> s/can/should
<ski> can one make a fixed-point combinator for making two mutually recursive functions ?
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<cDlm> now maybe the compiler cannot handle a big recursive spaghetti module, but I doubt that
<ski> (using the ordinary fixed-point combinator, but not any other recursion)
<karryall> cDlm: well some people care. Banana's piece of code is perfectly valid.
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<Axioplase> hi ski :)
<cDlm> "means" as in "hell low" means "hello"
<Axioplase> indeed
<ski> ok
<vincenz> Chat Lu = which lang?
<Axioplase> french
<vincenz> Salut ou quoi?
<vincenz> Car je vois pas d'ou ca pourrais venir sinon.
<Axioplase> since 95% of the chans i m on are french speaking, i mapped this sentence as i log in.
<Axioplase> vincenz: ouais c est ca.
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* ski sighs
* cDlm sighs too
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<Banana> hum... lots of noise today.
<Banana> damn split. :/
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<karryall> Banana: you're working on cduce, right ?
<Banana> yes.
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<vincenz> Banana: split?
<vincenz> there is no split
<Banana> "just begining" to work would be appropriate.
<karryall> do you known if there's some kind of XSLT to cduce converter ?
* ski laughs
<Axioplase> lol :)
<Banana> i'll start my phd thesis ins september.
<ski> ("Banana split")
<Banana> \o/
<karryall> t'es dans quelle équipe, orsay ou ens ?
<Banana> ens.
<Banana> pas a ma connaissance pour XSLT -> CDuce mais bon, chuis un petit jeune comme on dit.
<Banana> (sorry).
<karryall> hmm
<Axioplase> sauf que j ai pas l impression d etre en 1152*768 là...
<Axioplase> mon gaim prend limite 1 quart de largeur de l ecran...
<Banana> Axioplase: wrong window ?
<Banana> ;)
<Axioplase> oups :)
<Axioplase> soory
<karryall> Banana: what's your PhD about ?
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<Banana> Defining, typing and implementing combinators for the transformation of XML documents.
<Banana> right now i'm defining few combinators (non Turing Complete) which enables me to express iterators on XML trees/
<ski> folds ?
<Banana> and seeing how i can type all those things.
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<Banana> for now some operations are "hardcoded" into cduce, like transform, xtransform, map,...
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<karryall> ah right I remember
<Banana> the combinators (i call them filter for now) are powerfull enough to express these operations.
<Banana> i mean, when** i finish the proofs i'm on ~_~.
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<Banana> and then implementing them efficiently using tree automata techniques or something like this...
<Banana> a long way to go ~_~.
<cDlm> Banana: I can only hope you're *really* motivated
<cDlm> because doing a phd on something you don't care about really sucks.
* karryall approves
<Banana> if i weren't i wouldn't even have bothered doing a DEA. (Master ?).
<Banana> the problem here is not about motivation but money ^_^
<cDlm> karryall: shall we make a club ?
<karryall> I would expect many many people to join
<cDlm> heh
<cDlm> Banana: no, money is not the problem
<Banana> cDlm: for me it is.
<cDlm> Banana: do some teaching, that helps
<Banana> that's not the problem
<Banana> I need to get a grant to do my phd thesis.
<Banana> i'm in france in case you did not realise ;)
<cDlm> and ?
* cDlm had no problem getting a grant
<Banana> and the exam's were not so good, so i haven't a good ranking.
<Banana> but i think i'll do it somehow.
<cDlm> if you already know the team there's no problem
<Banana> not that simple i'm affraid.
<Banana> but sure it helps.
<karryall> some institutions won't have PhD students unless they have a grant
<Banana> ens, zum beispiel.
<Banana> or Université d'Orsay.
<Banana> in which are the CDuce team. ^_^
<karryall> heh
<Banana> (je suis pas normalien, pour information :/).
<cDlm> bah, moi non plus
<karryall> ils n'ont pas ces pb là effectivement
<Banana> boh, ca ira j'ai toujours une solution de cotutelle qui est sure de toute façon.
* cDlm goes back staring at his phd.tex buffer
<karryall> a l'étranger ?
<Banana> oui.
<Banana> a marseille.
<karryall> arf
<karryall> cDlm: I should do this too y'know
<cDlm> i mean staring and nothing else
<Banana> et en meme temps ca me derange pas plus que ca de faire la 2eme annéee labas.
<Banana> le labo est pas loin des calanques.
<karryall> tu grimpes ?
<Banana> oui.
<karryall> c'est sûr que pour ça c'est mieux qu'à l'ENS
<Banana> boh, ya toujours les sorties a bleau de toute facon.
<Banana> puis y a AntreBloc pas loin (mais bon c'est pas la meme chose c'est sur).
<karryall> ah j'y allais à Antrebloc
<Banana> c'est pas fin par contre.
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<karryall> et puis je me suis rendu à l'evidence: je suis trop mauvais et j'ai laissé tomber
<Banana> pfff n'importe nawak.
<Banana> ca veut rien dire.
<Banana> je suis pas un ouf non plus.
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<Banana> l'essentiel c'est de s'amuser.
<cDlm> karryall: mm conclusion ici, mais pas pour l'escalade :)
* cDlm attend le chomage impatiemment
<karryall> ah oui tiens, moi aussi ça s'applique à ma thèse
<karryall> enfin je peux pas laisser tomber
<Banana> cDlm: on en est tous la, j'ai juste repoussé la date de 3 ans mais bon.
<karryall> bah je pense qu'en info c'est moins pire qu'ailleurs
<Banana> c'est sur.
<Banana> mais dans les autres trucs, ils t'autorisent a faire des theses pas financees.
<Banana> (sinon personne ferait de these).
<Banana> (je parle pour philo, lettres, socio tout ca).
<cDlm> ils s'autorisent à vraiment exploiter des thésards ^^
<Banana> mais bon bosser au mac do pour financer la these c'est moyen...
<karryall> oui mais dans les autres sciences c'est pareil: pas de bourse, pas de thèse
<gl> yo bande de francais
<Banana> bonjour, vect.
<Banana> commo esta ?
<gl> kewkew banana
<gl> j'ai pas vu etiemble, je veux mourir
<Banana> ?
<Banana> il etait pas la ?
<gl> non
<Banana> t'avais rdv ?
<gl> du coup ca va etre limite pour le timing, entre finir le code, faire les slides, presenter un sujet potable chercher un chef de these, ...
<gl> non mais je devais le voir dans la semaine, il etait pas au labo de la journee
<Banana> olivier peut pas te prendre ?
<gl> non y'a deja une bourse pour albert cohen
<Banana> hum...
<Banana> capello il est dans leur equipe ?
<gl> c'est la crotte.
<gl> arf non, capello et temam sont en guerre ouverte depuis leur DEA :)
<Banana> ou c'est le coté obscur de l'archi ?
<Banana> ouai voila c'est bien ce qui me semblait.
<Banana> bon ben mon vieux, reste que Cecile Germain.
<gl> capello fait du parallelisme, grid computing, p2p et tout, pas de l'archi
<gl> uh oh.
<gl> je prefere confectionner tout de suite une bonne corde de chanvre, la.
<Banana> gl: plutot la mort au deshonneur c'est ca ?
<Banana> :D
<Banana> gl: j'ai une solution a long terme a te proposer.
<gl> explique.
<Banana> t'attends 10 ans et je te prends en these.
<gl> mh
<gl> tu fais de l'archi toi ? :/
<Banana> ouai.
<cDlm> ya une équipe d'archi ici
<Banana> XML -> .NET -> Archi
<Banana> et hop.
<gl> bon d'accord, en attendant je vais faire vendeur chez Quick.
<gl> cDlm ici c'est ou ?
<cDlm> irisa, rennes
<cDlm> équipe caps
<gl> ah oui, seznec, tout ca.
<cDlm> vala
<gl> je connais, ma chef de stage etait la thesarde de seznec.
<Banana> c'est pas un peu tendu de dire hello, vous voulez bien me prendre en these ?
<gl> mais bon c'est pas evident de demander une these dans une equipe ou tu n'as pas fait le stage / qui n'est pas dans le labo de ta fac
<Banana> remarque, elle peut pas te filler un coup de main de se point de vue la ?
<cDlm> ben oui
<gl> je doute, si j'ai une possibilite c'est sur les bourses reservees aux exterieurs, et c'est vache maigre
<cDlm> pis tu peux tj mailer, si ton sujet est dans leurs cordes c bon
<cDlm> enfin ça peut pas faire de mal
<gl> cdlm oui mais je pense que c'est trop tard, la, puisque je soutiens vers le 10-12 juillet
<gl> mais j'en parlerai a ma chef
<gl> j'exclue pas non plus une bourse CIFRE
* gl mange a tous les rateliers
<Banana> gl: tu peux pas prendre la place de marcheur ni vu ni connu ?
<Banana> (tu te tein les cheveux, tu te courbe un peu et vla).
<gl> un croche-patte dans les escaliers est si vite arrive
<Banana> oui voila.
<gl> oui mais non, je prefere la aussi mourir plutot que me faire passer pour lui :)
<Banana> hum...
<Banana> c'est sur.
<Banana> erf.
<Banana> n'est on pas *légèrement off-topic ?
<gl> bon bon bon, tout ceci est fortement off topic
<gl> :)
<Banana> les grands esprits...
<Banana> ce serait peut etre une bonne occasion de relance ocamlfr :D
<gl> go go go
<cDlm> faudrait lui faire une syntaxe à ocaml d'abord
<Banana> gni ?
<cDlm> chepa, je le trouve un peu write-oly comme langage
<cDlm> only
<Banana> je parlais de #ocamlfr, le canal des gens sexy.
<Banana> hum...
<Banana> ben c'est pas du perl.
<cDlm> et ya des précédences pénibles
<Banana> cDlm: passes y un coup d'obfuscator si t'es pas content.
<cDlm> on cause de langage de prog hein
<Banana> perl est un langage de prog.
<Banana> il devient meme typé dans sa version 6.
<cDlm> brainfuck aussi
<gl> "type" ...
<gl> et malbolge !
<Banana> (avec les types desactivé par defaut pour etre backward compatible avec les anciens scripts).
<Banana> bon, rentrage maison.
<cDlm> bref, je trouve qu'il y a des parenthèses nécessaires qui devraient pas l'être
* Banana &
<cDlm> genre fun (Plop(a,b)) ->...
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<vincenz> dit, parlez anglais
<cDlm> i was mumbling about ocaml syntax
<vincenz> je comprends parfaitement le francais, mais il y a du temps que j'ai plus parler, alors l'ecrire me viens difficilement
<karryall> bah, réponds en anglais ! c'est pas grave
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<Nutssh> Dare I ask what you're talking about?
<vincenz> The fact you have no nuts
<Nutssh> Do you obsess about nuts? ...... it was quite a long conversation. :)
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<buggs> Nutssh, nothing really interesting more chit chat
<Nutssh> ah.
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<buggs> someone made a bibtex template for wikipedia ?
<cDlm> what do you mean ?
<buggs> i want to cite wikipedia and i want to do it the standard way or help making one
<cDlm> how about a @misc entry with url field ?
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<GSF> is there any workaround to get unicode working with ocaml?
<smimou> the camomile library does that I think
<smimou> camomile.sf.net
<GSF> thanks
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<Snark> good night
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