flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
<JohnnyL> let us go!
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<electronx> just wandering whats going on the ocaml development front
<electronx> any updates coming?
<electronx> new features?
<electronx> or is it dead pretty much
<Myoma> electronx: wondering
<electronx> Myoma: yes
<electronx> from the silence i gather dead?
<electronx> replaced by F#?
<mfp> electronx: 3.11 will be released any time now
<electronx> mfp: new features?
<mfp> electronx: http://tinyurl.com/6g88n4
<mfp> biggest one = dynamic linking of native code
<electronx> basically no language features
<mfp> only private abbreviations
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
<electronx> hello
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<flux> hmph.. wish ocamlfind+ocamldep could "see through" -package and put the dependencies to the installed .cma/.cmo/.cmi-files
<flux> this way make would work after installing a new version of package
<flux> does ocamlbuild handle that? I may have asked this earlier ;-)
<Eridius> flux: I'm not sure what you're asking for
<flux> eridius, I have installed package foo with ocamlfind
<flux> eridius, I have a program that depends on it
<Eridius> go on
<flux> when I reinstall package foo and enter 'make' in the program's directory, the files I've changed will be compiled against the new library version
<flux> but the rest wont be, because their dependencies haven't changed
<Eridius> ahh
<flux> thus it will fail at linking stage
<electronx> mfp: do you know if ocaml will get a parallel gc?
<Eridius> flux: it seems like putting dependencies in the Makefile against the files provided by the package would make it recompile all the files
<flux> eridius, but not all files actually may depend on the foreign package, so for optimum results manual work would be large
<flux> I suppose it'd be better than nothing, though
<Eridius> I don't know if ocamlbuild handles it, but ocamlbuild doesn't have support for ocamlfind so you'd have to construct the appropriate command-line arguments by calling ocamlfind query yourself
<Eridius> really, I'd probably just suggest remembering to do a `make clean` after updating a package
<electronx> never mind ocaml is getting a parallel garabage collector
<flux> eridius, well, not much matter if one forgets it, the compiler will remind..
<flux> was the final meeting of Jane Street Ocaml Summer Project (or something like that) to be on the friday last week, or today?
<flux> ah, it was on Friday, September 12th
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<gildor> flux: is there any kind of report about the OSP meeting ?
<flux> gildor, I haven't seen one
<flux> I too would like to..
<Yoric[DT]> gildor: btw, will there be an OCaml workshop this year?
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: hope so
<Yoric[DT]> Are you in charge?
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: I will call for participation in a few days
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: don't know
<Yoric[DT]> gildor: will there be papers, this year?
<Yoric[DT]> I think it would be nice.
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: I can do it, but I would like other people get involved also (like last year)
<Yoric[DT]> (I'm sure some people would have things to show -- I'm thinking about relational databases in OCaml)
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: there is paper
<Yoric[DT]> gildor: I'm willing to get involved.
<Yoric[DT]> Great.
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: from last year you can fetch some paper of last year on the cocan page
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: slides most of the time
<Yoric[DT]> I didn't mean transcript.
<Yoric[DT]> I meant publication.
<gildor> Like a real science article, you mean ?
<Yoric[DT]> Yep.
<Yoric[DT]> With a program committee and all that.
<gildor> it depends
<gildor> the meeting is not only a scientific meeting
<gildor> some talks can be about "practical" issue with the language
<gildor> in this case, there is no real notion of publication
<Yoric[DT]> Well, Haskell has a Haskell Workshop.
<Yoric[DT]> With publications and technical issues.
<gildor> and does technical issue has corresponding publication ?
<Yoric[DT]> I'm pretty sure.
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* Yoric[DT] needs to check.
<gildor> well, maybe we can see what they do and copy-paste it
<Yoric[DT]> Now, it's too late for this year's ICFP.
<Yoric[DT]> But we could keep the rest.
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<Yoric[DT]> gildor: would you be interested in such a thing?
<Yoric[DT]> If so, the call for papers should get out soonish.
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: why not
<Yoric[DT]> Should I try and call for a program committee?
<Smerdyakov> For an OCaml meeting?
<Yoric[DT]> Yes.
<Smerdyakov> The ML Workshop, which has a larger scope, already has had some trouble attracting enough submissions.
<gildor> if you have time to take care of it (as a non-PhD I don't see how to judge other people publication)
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: I'm aware of that.
<Yoric[DT]> This would necessarily be a sub-ML workshop.
<Smerdyakov> Yeah, and so, it would seem common says tells us that you would have even more trouble.
<Yoric[DT]> I'd say it's worth giving it a try.
<gildor> last year we were ~80
<Yoric[DT]> Most people wouldn't have submitted anything, though.
<Smerdyakov> gildor, I'm talking about research paper submissions. It's much easier to get hackers to sit around and shoot the breeze. :)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> My guess is that it would indeed attract rather little.
<gildor> Yoric[DT], Smerdyakov: the discussion with Yoric[DT] was about this
<Yoric[DT]> However, we need to start somewhere.
<Smerdyakov> Also, if you run a workshop not affiliated with a superpower like SIGPLAN, you will have a harder time getting people to take you seriously.
<gildor> I think something with a more "practical" aspect is better
<gildor> But I have nothing against having paper
<Smerdyakov> My take is that the ML Workshop can grow as needed to cover scholarly aspects. Research papers should stay out of an extra OCaml meeting. They would even alienate many participants.
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: yes, I was thinking of contacting SIGPLAN.
<Yoric[DT]> Although probably not for year 1.
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<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], is this just a plot to get yourself more publications? ;-)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<gildor> Last year presentation of GODI and Debian won't have a place into a more scholar meeting
<Smerdyakov> Also, OCaml will be gone in 10 years, or I'll do my best to make it happen, so maybe you should slow down on this. ;)
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: actually, given that I have written exactly 1 paper related to functional programming, that probably won't matter much :)
* Yoric[DT] is a process algebra guy.
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: well, we can rename it the Smerdyakov Workshop when time comes :)
<Smerdyakov> I've pledged out of submitting full papers to workshops for a while.
<gildor> Laconic workshop
<Smerdyakov> It's best to avoid starting projects that aren't good enough to get into bonafide conferences.
<Yoric[DT]> That's not the kind of things I think appear in the ML workshop.
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: well, sometimes you just have an idea and you can't get it out of your head.
<Yoric[DT]> And it just happens to be too specific for a conference.
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<Yoric[DT]> Actually, I may be wrong.
<Yoric[DT]> ML workshop 2008 seems less theoretical than 2007.
<Yoric[DT]> Ok, make that *much* less theoretical.
<Smerdyakov> Any scholarly event centered on a boring language family like ML is bound to be dull.
<Smerdyakov> That won't stop me from going to this year's ML Workshop, though. :)
<flux> maybe they should hire dancers? and give helicopter rides?
<Yoric[DT]> Well, looking at the program of the ML workshop does make me want to reconsider.
<Yoric[DT]> That's probably a bad idea after all.
<Smerdyakov> flux, I might agree if you made that "mustache rides."
<Yoric[DT]> Well, back to my concurrent resource bounds, then :)
<Yoric[DT]> (and to my safe exceptions, if someone finds a good answer to my post on the mailing-list)
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, and to preparing the term.
<Yoric[DT]> My first lecture is on Wednesday and I have no idea what I'm going to talk about.
<Smerdyakov> In a few hours, I give the first lecture of my How to be a Coq Power User class.
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: if there is no "program committee", do you still intend to help ?
<Yoric[DT]> gildor: depends on what I can do.
<Yoric[DT]> But yes.
<gildor> Mostly organizer stuff
<gildor> like finding a place
<Yoric[DT]> Can we discuss this at another time, then?
<gildor> yes
<Yoric[DT]> Now that the excitement is down, I have real work to do :)
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<hcarty> flux: ocamlbuild does not support what you are looking for out of the box. I have the same problem with my own code built with ocamlbuild + ocamlfind.
<hcarty> flux: Though I imagine a "smart" enough ocamlbuild plugin could respond appropriately to external library changes
<Eridius> hcarty: is there any way to install an ocamlbuild plugin globally, or does it have to be put into every project that wants it?
* Eridius found a plugin that teaches ocamlbuild about ocamlfind, but it's not all that useful when it has to be copied into every project
<flux> eridius, wouldn't that be problematic when another person retrieves a copy of the software?
<flux> but perhaps if it could find a default configuration from . .. ../.. etc..
<Eridius> flux: well sure, if it's a public project then I'd want to distribute it. But when I'm building stuff for private use, it would be nice to be able to use ocamlbuild with ocamlfind quickly
<Yoric[DT]> Eridius: currently, it has to be copied for every project.
<Yoric[DT]> There are plans for the next version of ocamlbuild but I don't know where it stands.
<flux> eridius, well, even then, perhaps you want to develope the same project on another host
<Eridius> flux: then I should already have the plugin copied there :P
<flux> eridius, system-wide?
<Eridius> that's what I want
<flux> I can't infact think of another build system that would change its behavior depending on system-installed components?
<flux> disclaimer: I don't know ocamlbuild. but can't you add the equivalent of "include ~/.ocamlbuild-global" to your setup file?
<flux> (or doesn't it work at that level?)
<Eridius> flux: well, the location for build products can be set globally for Xcode, and this will affect `xcodebuild`
* Eridius has run into more than one project that has a Makefile that assumes the location of the build products without actually specifying them. They tend to get broken
<flux> eridius, thank you enforcing my point about global configurations ;)
<Eridius> well, people shouldn't assume the location of build products in their scripts anyway
<Eridius> for example, Xcode 2.4 added a new directory into the build product location, so now you see scripts that check the version of Xcode before hard-coding the location
<Eridius> instead of just explicitly specifying it
<Eridius> all a script has to do to work on my computer is say OBJROOT=build/ SYMROOT=build/
<hcarty> flux: I don't think you can do that... the plugin seems to only have access to the modules specifically provided by ocamlbuild
<hcarty> And that list of modules seems to be fixed
<flux> I suppose I would need to use ocamlbuild to see the problem
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: by the way, what reading do you suggest for [re]starting Coq?
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], my textbook, when it's done, or incrementally as I release the chapters.
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: how much is readable already?
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/
<Yoric[DT]> Thanks.
* Yoric[DT] is planning to port some of his pi-calculus stuff to a dependently-typed programming language.
<Yoric[DT]> Might as well be Coq.
<Smerdyakov> You will definitely want to use my approach to syntax and semantics, I claim.
<Yoric[DT]> Ok, I'll read that.
<Yoric[DT]> For now, though, time to go.
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<Yoric[DT]> Unrelated question: does anyone have an idea about my local type problem?
<Yoric[DT]> (as featured on the ocaml mailing-list)
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<Myoma> I don't get it
<Myoma> why is ocaml more widely used than ATS?
<flux> well, for one, ATS on google produces no relevant top hits
<Yoric[DT]> What exactly is ATS?
* Yoric[DT] is reading the page, of course.
<flux> "ATS : A language that combines programming with theorem proving"
<flux> I guess that's one reason :)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<flux> I recently talked about how nice it would be if ML-family libraries could be linked with programs written in another ML-family library
<flux> but how about "simply" converting the programs from one language to another?
<Yoric[DT]> I don't think that's feasible.
<Yoric[DT]> Too many tiny differences in type systems.
<flux> Obj.magic into rescue :P
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> Speaking of type systems, if anyone has an idea for my local type problems, I'm interested.
<Myoma> what is the problem
<flux> regarding that particular program I just pasted, this looks like cheating: gc_chunk_count_limit_max_set (~1) // infinite
<Yoric[DT]> I have local types (i.e. types defined in a local module).
<Yoric[DT]> flux: yeah, I've seen plenty of that around the shootout.
<Myoma> flux: is that cheating?
<Yoric[DT]> Myoma: I want to be sure that they remain local.
<Yoric[DT]> The OCaml type-checker does check that, sort of.
<flux> myoma, it looks like the problem is small enough that we never need to release memory. of course, perhaps my understanding of what that line does is wrong.
<flux> while a "non-cheating" implementation would work just as well (well, taking complexities into account) even if the problem size was increased significantly
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<Myoma> I don't know Yoric
<Myoma> It seems like you could just hope .. maybe that's not a good enough guarantee :)
<flux> ATS looks interesting, anyway.
<Yoric[DT]> Myoma: well, if you find someone who does know, I'm interested :)
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<Yoric[DT]> I'm pretty sure I could use that to do really safe exceptions, a number of types-and-effects stuff and possibly even some type-classes.
<flux> apparently ATS is under GPL3. how about its runtime libraries? no other licenses are mentioned at http://www.ats-lang.org/
<flux> no other license appears on the pages, and from my viewpoint that's a non-starter for me, for developing applications of my own
<Myoma> GPL3 is a problem?
<flux> if the runtime libraries are also GPL3, thus rendering everything developed with it GPL3, then that would be a problem
<Myoma> why?
<flux> because I would like to maky my own decision on the license of software I develope
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<Associat0r> when did this ATS lang come out?
<Myoma> 60s
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<Associat0r> Myoma : are you sure?
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<flux> not related to ocaml (afaik), but this might be the death strike to darcs (my personal favorite dvcs): http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/03/30/sourcecode-collaboration/
<flux> I do wonder if it really can match to darcs, though..
<flux> oooh, right, depends on qt, perhaps not then :P
<flux> but, off to sleep ->
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<palomer> hmmmm
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<palomer> how would you guys implement the option datatype in java?
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<mbishop_> is that what you're talking about?
<palomer> cool!
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<palomer> oh, they did it the obvious way
<palomer> through higher order functions
<palomer> bleh
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<Myoma> palomer: everything in java is already in an option type
<Myoma> (except primitives like int)
<Associat0r> Myoma : do you use ATS?
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<Myoma> why?
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<Associat0r> you talked about it
<Associat0r> so I wondered
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<Smerdyakov> I don't know why someone would want to use ATS. :P
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : what is wrong with it?
<Smerdyakov> Coq dominates it utility-wise, IMO.
<Associat0r> but that isn't general purpose
<Smerdyakov> It sure is.
<Associat0r> I haven't seen an app written in it
<Associat0r> also what about practicallity?
<Associat0r> and is there a fast implementation
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* Yoric[DT] will let you guys discuss the relative merits of languages and grab some much-needed sleep.
<Yoric[DT]> 'night everyone
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<mattam> Associat0r: Coq extracts to OCaml, which is at least on-topic :)
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, wait for my book, I guess.
<Associat0r> yeah that is true
<Associat0r> but still some things you don't want to write in a pure math way
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, you have a faulty understanding of Coq.
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, if you think some "pure math way" is involved.
<Myoma> I think it would be quite easy to use Coq to write proofs that ATS can compile
<Associat0r> it can be for structuring certain apps
<Associat0r> also what if you want todo some lower level stuff?
<Associat0r> then the nice math breaks down
<Myoma> Associat0r: What's an "app"?
<Myoma> and no, math does not break down because you're modelling something low level
<Associat0r> program
<Myoma> Associat0r: There are lots of programs in Coq
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, it is trivial to do in Coq anything you can do in any other language, more or less.
<Myoma> Smerdyakov: ... please define trivial :)
<Myoma> I hope you don't mean it in the "not a reseach problem" sense
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : thinks everybody should write their own language
<Associat0r> so i think he means trivial in that sense
<Smerdyakov> Myoma, yeah, that's the sense.
<Myoma> heh ok
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<Smerdyakov> Programmers who can't work with language technology are going to be obsolete veeeery soon.
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<tomh_-_> haha causing havoc and chaos here now Smerdyakov? :P
<Smerdyakov> tomh_-_, I've been an #ocaml regular for years. I'm one of the channel ops. :P
<tomh_-_> i see
<tomh_-_> well in that case i go continue with shutting up :P
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<Associat0r> I should look into Coq closer some days
<Smerdyakov> http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/ ... catch the chapters as they're released.
<Myoma> Why do you intend to do with it?
<Associat0r> nothing usefull in the coming years that for sure
<Myoma> that's the spirit ...
<Associat0r> I just want to understand proofs as programs more
<Associat0r> but I can't see myself writing a whole program that way
<Myoma> Do you understand recursion and proof by induction?
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : thanks for the link man
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, hardly anyone writes programs that way.
<Associat0r> Myoma : yes
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, or writes proofs that way.
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, you generally want to separate the two very clearly.
<Myoma> and if you know about about type systems, you can probably imagine a more expressive type system that ocaml has
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : why is that?
<Myoma> one which a recursive could cover the cases of a property you wanted to prove
<Myoma> look at: http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Evens_Sum_To_Even for a couple examples
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<Myoma> in there the data 'even' fits together in certain ways such that it describes a property, and the recursive definitions build up that data into a proof
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<Myoma> does this example make sense?
<Associat0r> a little
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<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : how would you ideally write programs and proofs?
<Associat0r> keep in mind that I just recently this year got into functional programming
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<palomer> Myoma, good point
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, that is the subject of my book.
<Associat0r> thanks I will read it
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<mbishop_> Smerdyakov: gonna be releasing it for free? :)
<Smerdyakov> mbishop_, yes.
<mbishop_> nice
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<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : I have read some part of you book into, really nice man
<Smerdyakov> Associat0r, thank you.