<mfp>
biggest one = dynamic linking of native code
<electronx>
basically no language features
<mfp>
only private abbreviations
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi
<electronx>
hello
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<flux>
hmph.. wish ocamlfind+ocamldep could "see through" -package and put the dependencies to the installed .cma/.cmo/.cmi-files
<flux>
this way make would work after installing a new version of package
<flux>
does ocamlbuild handle that? I may have asked this earlier ;-)
<Eridius>
flux: I'm not sure what you're asking for
<flux>
eridius, I have installed package foo with ocamlfind
<flux>
eridius, I have a program that depends on it
<Eridius>
go on
<flux>
when I reinstall package foo and enter 'make' in the program's directory, the files I've changed will be compiled against the new library version
<flux>
but the rest wont be, because their dependencies haven't changed
<Eridius>
ahh
<flux>
thus it will fail at linking stage
<electronx>
mfp: do you know if ocaml will get a parallel gc?
<Eridius>
flux: it seems like putting dependencies in the Makefile against the files provided by the package would make it recompile all the files
<flux>
eridius, but not all files actually may depend on the foreign package, so for optimum results manual work would be large
<flux>
I suppose it'd be better than nothing, though
<Eridius>
I don't know if ocamlbuild handles it, but ocamlbuild doesn't have support for ocamlfind so you'd have to construct the appropriate command-line arguments by calling ocamlfind query yourself
<Eridius>
really, I'd probably just suggest remembering to do a `make clean` after updating a package
<electronx>
never mind ocaml is getting a parallel garabage collector
<flux>
eridius, well, not much matter if one forgets it, the compiler will remind..
<flux>
was the final meeting of Jane Street Ocaml Summer Project (or something like that) to be on the friday last week, or today?
<flux>
ah, it was on Friday, September 12th
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<gildor>
flux: is there any kind of report about the OSP meeting ?
<flux>
gildor, I haven't seen one
<flux>
I too would like to..
<Yoric[DT]>
gildor: btw, will there be an OCaml workshop this year?
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: hope so
<Yoric[DT]>
Are you in charge?
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: I will call for participation in a few days
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: don't know
<Yoric[DT]>
gildor: will there be papers, this year?
<Yoric[DT]>
I think it would be nice.
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: I can do it, but I would like other people get involved also (like last year)
<Yoric[DT]>
(I'm sure some people would have things to show -- I'm thinking about relational databases in OCaml)
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: there is paper
<Yoric[DT]>
gildor: I'm willing to get involved.
<Yoric[DT]>
Great.
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: from last year you can fetch some paper of last year on the cocan page
<Yoric[DT]>
Now, it's too late for this year's ICFP.
<Yoric[DT]>
But we could keep the rest.
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<Yoric[DT]>
gildor: would you be interested in such a thing?
<Yoric[DT]>
If so, the call for papers should get out soonish.
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: why not
<Yoric[DT]>
Should I try and call for a program committee?
<Smerdyakov>
For an OCaml meeting?
<Yoric[DT]>
Yes.
<Smerdyakov>
The ML Workshop, which has a larger scope, already has had some trouble attracting enough submissions.
<gildor>
if you have time to take care of it (as a non-PhD I don't see how to judge other people publication)
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: I'm aware of that.
<Yoric[DT]>
This would necessarily be a sub-ML workshop.
<Smerdyakov>
Yeah, and so, it would seem common says tells us that you would have even more trouble.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'd say it's worth giving it a try.
<gildor>
last year we were ~80
<Yoric[DT]>
Most people wouldn't have submitted anything, though.
<Smerdyakov>
gildor, I'm talking about research paper submissions. It's much easier to get hackers to sit around and shoot the breeze. :)
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<Yoric[DT]>
My guess is that it would indeed attract rather little.
<gildor>
Yoric[DT], Smerdyakov: the discussion with Yoric[DT] was about this
<Yoric[DT]>
However, we need to start somewhere.
<Smerdyakov>
Also, if you run a workshop not affiliated with a superpower like SIGPLAN, you will have a harder time getting people to take you seriously.
<gildor>
I think something with a more "practical" aspect is better
<gildor>
But I have nothing against having paper
<Smerdyakov>
My take is that the ML Workshop can grow as needed to cover scholarly aspects. Research papers should stay out of an extra OCaml meeting. They would even alienate many participants.
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: yes, I was thinking of contacting SIGPLAN.
<Yoric[DT]>
Although probably not for year 1.
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<Smerdyakov>
Yoric[DT], is this just a plot to get yourself more publications? ;-)
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<gildor>
Last year presentation of GODI and Debian won't have a place into a more scholar meeting
<Smerdyakov>
Also, OCaml will be gone in 10 years, or I'll do my best to make it happen, so maybe you should slow down on this. ;)
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: actually, given that I have written exactly 1 paper related to functional programming, that probably won't matter much :)
* Yoric[DT]
is a process algebra guy.
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: well, we can rename it the Smerdyakov Workshop when time comes :)
<Smerdyakov>
I've pledged out of submitting full papers to workshops for a while.
<Smerdyakov>
It's best to avoid starting projects that aren't good enough to get into bonafide conferences.
<Yoric[DT]>
That's not the kind of things I think appear in the ML workshop.
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: well, sometimes you just have an idea and you can't get it out of your head.
<Yoric[DT]>
And it just happens to be too specific for a conference.
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<Yoric[DT]>
Actually, I may be wrong.
<Yoric[DT]>
ML workshop 2008 seems less theoretical than 2007.
<Yoric[DT]>
Ok, make that *much* less theoretical.
<Smerdyakov>
Any scholarly event centered on a boring language family like ML is bound to be dull.
<Smerdyakov>
That won't stop me from going to this year's ML Workshop, though. :)
<flux>
maybe they should hire dancers? and give helicopter rides?
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, looking at the program of the ML workshop does make me want to reconsider.
<Yoric[DT]>
That's probably a bad idea after all.
<Smerdyakov>
flux, I might agree if you made that "mustache rides."
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, back to my concurrent resource bounds, then :)
<Yoric[DT]>
(and to my safe exceptions, if someone finds a good answer to my post on the mailing-list)
<Yoric[DT]>
Oh, and to preparing the term.
<Yoric[DT]>
My first lecture is on Wednesday and I have no idea what I'm going to talk about.
<Smerdyakov>
In a few hours, I give the first lecture of my How to be a Coq Power User class.
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: if there is no "program committee", do you still intend to help ?
<Yoric[DT]>
gildor: depends on what I can do.
<Yoric[DT]>
But yes.
<gildor>
Mostly organizer stuff
<gildor>
like finding a place
<Yoric[DT]>
Can we discuss this at another time, then?
<gildor>
yes
<Yoric[DT]>
Now that the excitement is down, I have real work to do :)
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<hcarty>
flux: ocamlbuild does not support what you are looking for out of the box. I have the same problem with my own code built with ocamlbuild + ocamlfind.
<hcarty>
flux: Though I imagine a "smart" enough ocamlbuild plugin could respond appropriately to external library changes
<Eridius>
hcarty: is there any way to install an ocamlbuild plugin globally, or does it have to be put into every project that wants it?
* Eridius
found a plugin that teaches ocamlbuild about ocamlfind, but it's not all that useful when it has to be copied into every project
<flux>
eridius, wouldn't that be problematic when another person retrieves a copy of the software?
<flux>
but perhaps if it could find a default configuration from . .. ../.. etc..
<Eridius>
flux: well sure, if it's a public project then I'd want to distribute it. But when I'm building stuff for private use, it would be nice to be able to use ocamlbuild with ocamlfind quickly
<Yoric[DT]>
Eridius: currently, it has to be copied for every project.
<Yoric[DT]>
There are plans for the next version of ocamlbuild but I don't know where it stands.
<flux>
eridius, well, even then, perhaps you want to develope the same project on another host
<Eridius>
flux: then I should already have the plugin copied there :P
<flux>
eridius, system-wide?
<Eridius>
that's what I want
<flux>
I can't infact think of another build system that would change its behavior depending on system-installed components?
<flux>
disclaimer: I don't know ocamlbuild. but can't you add the equivalent of "include ~/.ocamlbuild-global" to your setup file?
<flux>
(or doesn't it work at that level?)
<Eridius>
flux: well, the location for build products can be set globally for Xcode, and this will affect `xcodebuild`
* Eridius
has run into more than one project that has a Makefile that assumes the location of the build products without actually specifying them. They tend to get broken
<flux>
eridius, thank you enforcing my point about global configurations ;)
<Eridius>
well, people shouldn't assume the location of build products in their scripts anyway
<Eridius>
for example, Xcode 2.4 added a new directory into the build product location, so now you see scripts that check the version of Xcode before hard-coding the location
<Eridius>
instead of just explicitly specifying it
<Eridius>
all a script has to do to work on my computer is say OBJROOT=build/ SYMROOT=build/
<hcarty>
flux: I don't think you can do that... the plugin seems to only have access to the modules specifically provided by ocamlbuild
<hcarty>
And that list of modules seems to be fixed
<flux>
I suppose I would need to use ocamlbuild to see the problem
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: by the way, what reading do you suggest for [re]starting Coq?
<Smerdyakov>
Yoric[DT], my textbook, when it's done, or incrementally as I release the chapters.
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: how much is readable already?
<flux>
I recently talked about how nice it would be if ML-family libraries could be linked with programs written in another ML-family library
<flux>
but how about "simply" converting the programs from one language to another?
<Yoric[DT]>
I don't think that's feasible.
<Yoric[DT]>
Too many tiny differences in type systems.
<flux>
Obj.magic into rescue :P
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<Yoric[DT]>
Speaking of type systems, if anyone has an idea for my local type problems, I'm interested.
<Myoma>
what is the problem
<flux>
regarding that particular program I just pasted, this looks like cheating: gc_chunk_count_limit_max_set (~1) // infinite
<Yoric[DT]>
I have local types (i.e. types defined in a local module).
<Yoric[DT]>
flux: yeah, I've seen plenty of that around the shootout.
<Myoma>
flux: is that cheating?
<Yoric[DT]>
Myoma: I want to be sure that they remain local.
<Yoric[DT]>
The OCaml type-checker does check that, sort of.
<flux>
myoma, it looks like the problem is small enough that we never need to release memory. of course, perhaps my understanding of what that line does is wrong.
<flux>
while a "non-cheating" implementation would work just as well (well, taking complexities into account) even if the problem size was increased significantly
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<Myoma>
I don't know Yoric
<Myoma>
It seems like you could just hope .. maybe that's not a good enough guarantee :)
<flux>
ATS looks interesting, anyway.
<Yoric[DT]>
Myoma: well, if you find someone who does know, I'm interested :)
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<Yoric[DT]>
I'm pretty sure I could use that to do really safe exceptions, a number of types-and-effects stuff and possibly even some type-classes.
<flux>
apparently ATS is under GPL3. how about its runtime libraries? no other licenses are mentioned at http://www.ats-lang.org/
<flux>
no other license appears on the pages, and from my viewpoint that's a non-starter for me, for developing applications of my own
<Myoma>
GPL3 is a problem?
<flux>
if the runtime libraries are also GPL3, thus rendering everything developed with it GPL3, then that would be a problem
<Myoma>
why?
<flux>
because I would like to maky my own decision on the license of software I develope
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<Associat0r>
when did this ATS lang come out?
<Myoma>
60s
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<Associat0r>
Myoma : are you sure?
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<Myoma>
in there the data 'even' fits together in certain ways such that it describes a property, and the recursive definitions build up that data into a proof