flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<dominic-> hi
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
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<gildor> Yoric[DT]: hello
<Yoric[DT]> How do you do?
<gildor> fine thanks
<gildor> a lot of work
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, me too.
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<Yoric[DT]> I'll be giving a talk at ifl 2008 on Wednesday
<Yoric[DT]> and I'm just starting the slides.
<gildor> what is your talk about ?
<Yoric[DT]> It's the continuation of the exception management stuff we discussed last February.
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<flux> yoric[dt], btw, how does/does it handle higher order functions neatly? so what would be the signature for List.filter, where the function can throw an exception?
<flux> I suppose one option is to explicitly encode the exceptions the function can throw, like val filter : ('a -> (bool, 'b) result)) -> 'a list -> ('a list, [`FuncFailed of 'b]) result ?
<Yoric[DT]> Something along the lines of ('a -> (bool, 'b) result) -> 'a list -> ('a list, 'b) result .
<Yoric[DT]> Ah, well :)
<Yoric[DT]> I don't think `FuncFailed would be necessary for filter.
<flux> not for filter, but some other function that itself can fail
<bluestorm> looks like a filterM
<Yoric[DT]> flux: in that case, yes
<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: yes, something like this.
<Yoric[DT]> It's definitely lifting things more-or-less manually.
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<flux> iirc reddit or LtU or both had a paper (..which I didn't read..) that stated that unchecked exceptions are more powerful than call/cc, the reasoning being that they can make a non-TC machine TC, while call/cc cannot
<flux> I suppose in that case these polymorphic variants plug that "tc-hole" also
<Yoric[DT]> I vaguely saw that on LtU.
<Yoric[DT]> The summary seemed to hint that the proof was given by using Turing Machines, which in turn hinted that I would not be overly interested in reading it.
<flux> :)
<Yoric[DT]> mmmhhhh....
<Yoric[DT]> Looking at the source code of ocamlc, I have the nasty feeling that there's no easy way to replace Pervasives.
<Yoric[DT]> Of course, a little bit of camlp4 might do the trick by adding "open Bla" at the beginning of each file.
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<Camarade_Tux> maybe we can ask upstream to simplify that, they seem to be willing to help for that (just an idea I had in the metro ;) )
<gildor> Camarade_Tux: I think that upstream will change things only if you provide patches
<Camarade_Tux> I thought a few small changes would suffice but well, I don't know, and now I have to pack, I'm leaving in one hour
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<Yoric[DT]> gildor: I think a patch has been lying on the tracker for about 3 years now...
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: nice.
<Yoric[DT]> How did you generate it?
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<flux> guessing: ocamldoc+graphviz?
<bluestorm> yes, ocamldoc + dot
<Yoric[DT]> Well, obviously not just that, since the names printed are not always the module names.
<bluestorm> hm
<Yoric[DT]> So I guess ocamdoc + dot + grep?
<bluestorm> sed :]
<Yoric[DT]> Nearly :)
<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: you may wish to take a look at the first part of odoc_generator_batlib.ml .
<Yoric[DT]> It's the part where everything gets rewritten to reveal the directory structure.
<bluestorm> ok
<Yoric[DT]> It's incomplete for the moment -- some stuff only takes place at rendering time.
<Yoric[DT]> At some point, I'll try and complete this into a full rewriting (with resolution of references) and simple rendering.
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<flux> funny how ocamlspotter (http://www.furuse.info/jun/hacks/ocamlspotter/) requires ocaml compiler (sources) to do its magic. but I suppose that information is only available from that level :/.
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<Yoric[DT]> I'm still looking for a good idea on how to automatically open a module, btw.
<Yoric[DT]> If anyone has clues, I'm interested.
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<Yoric[DT]> Note: replacing Pervasives just won't do.
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<kig> driver/compile.ml and optcompile.ml have something on Pervasives
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, I've read it,
<Yoric[DT]> and I'm quite pessimistic.
<kig> yeah
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<Yoric[DT]> ertai: ping
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<kig> you could use -pp "cat prefix.ml -"
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<kig> er, just "cat prefix.ml"
<kig> where prefix.ml: "open MyPervasives"
<kig> mypervasives compiled without -pp
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<kig> oh hey, it works
<kig> with both ocamlopt and ocamlc
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<Yoric[DT]> kig: yes, but it's bound to cause a few problems with ocamldoc.
<flux> hmm, why?
<Yoric[DT]> Let me check.
<Yoric[DT]> Hey, it works.
<Yoric[DT]> So I don't need Camlp4 after all.
<Yoric[DT]> I was afraid that putting an [open] before the first comments of a module would turn these comments into non-special comments rather than module information.
<Yoric[DT]> But it seems to work.
<Yoric[DT]> Now I just need to find out how to call that "cat prefix.ml" from ocamlfind...
<kig> http://projects.camlcity.org/projects/dl/findlib-1.2.1/doc/ref-html/r741.html probably this, ocamlc = "ocamlc.opt -pp \"cat prefix.ml\""
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<Yoric[DT]> mmmhhhh.....
<Yoric[DT]> Interesting idea.
<Yoric[DT]> I was attempting to toy with "-syntax".
<Yoric[DT]> Now, if only I could find how to change "ocamlc" from within a META file.
<flux> does open work with .mli-files also?
<Yoric[DT]> yes
<Palace_Chan> what does the >:: do ?
<flux> palace_chan, context?
<flux> >:: doesn't really ring a bell :)
<Palace_Chan> "somestring" >::
<flux> ah
<flux> it's a custom operator
<flux> so the meaning has been defined in the source somewhere
<Palace_Chan> flux, ah ok, ill do a search for it
<flux> either in the same file or in stuff you've open'ed/included
<bluestorm> my bet on OUnit
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<Palace_Chan> i have g : 'a -> 'b and k of type 'a list and build of type 'b list......in a pattern match for k i wrote: h::rest -> (g h) :: build, but i get as an error: This expression is not a function, it cannot be applied
<Palace_Chan> why would that be ?
<flux> perhaps you could put the whole function causing the problem to a pastebin site
<Palace_Chan> im trying to, in the case of k not empty list..to grab the head, apply g to it..and then cons that to the build list
<Palace_Chan> flux, i could do that, do you know a pastebin with ocaml syntax highlighting ?
<flux> maybe ocaml.pastebin.com
<flux> whitespace isn't significant in ocaml
<flux> that is the same as: (g h) :: build loop g rest build
<flux> so build is used in function context there
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<Palace_Chan> so i would have to add a single ;
<Palace_Chan> ?
<flux> what are you trying to do with the (g h) :: build?
<Palace_Chan> i'm trying to apply g to the head of the list k, and then cons it to the build list
<flux> well, it does construct a new list out of (g h) and build
<flux> where does that constructed list go?
<Palace_Chan> it is not accumulated over the recursive calls ?
<flux> ((g h) :: build) is an expression
<flux> it doesn't modify anything
<Palace_Chan> ah yes i see
<kig> you probably want loop g rest ((g h) :: build)
<Palace_Chan> let's see
<kig> unless a value is a ref or a member of a mutable record, you can't change it: hence the recursion by passing new values
<kig> you could also do let build = (g h) :: build in loop g rest build
<Palace_Chan> kig, well that certainly compiled
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<Yoric[DT]> Yeah!
<Yoric[DT]> Pervasives successfully masked.
<Yoric[DT]> kig: thanks for the idea.
<Yoric[DT]> I was looking for something much more complex (i.e. using Camlp4 to insert the command right after the first comment or something such).
<Yoric[DT]> Gasp.
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<Yoric[DT]> It works but it's not robust :/
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<Yoric[DT]> I'm therefore back to square 1 :/
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<flux> how is it not robust?
<Yoric[DT]> ocamlc -pp mypreprocessing -pp camlp4o => the first -pp is ignored
<Yoric[DT]> So I guess I really should use camlp4o.
<Yoric[DT]> If I understand how to get things done on a per-file basis.
<flux> hmm.. I wonder why ocamlc couldn't support multiple preprocessors?
<Yoric[DT]> Well, it's implemented as a [Arg.String].
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<Yoric[DT]> And in turn, the function called sets a reference.
<Yoric[DT]> No list there.
<Yoric[DT]> :/
<flux> setting up multiple preprocessors would also need some new code I take it
<Yoric[DT]> Otoh, iirc, findlib already has what's necessary to chain multiple camlp4 preprocessors.
<Yoric[DT]> (since camlp4 already has that capability)
<Yoric[DT]> So if we can get a camlp4 preprocessor which just adds one expression at the beginning of the file, we're good.
<Palace_Chan> if i take a list k as an argument, is there a quick way to grab the head of the list without using match k with h::tail ?
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<kig> List.hd, but it raises an exception if you call it with an empty list
<Palace_Chan> kig, so in any case i would probably want to use a match
<kig> yes
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<kig> match makes code safer and easier to understand, so the more match you use, the less bugs you have :)
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: ping
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<bluestorm> pong
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: do you have an idea?
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> i must say i quite fail to get interested in that pervasives-replacement debate
<Yoric[DT]> The objective being to add one [open] directive at the beginning of each file.
<Yoric[DT]> Well, maybe camlp4 can get you interested :)
<bluestorm> well, camlp4 could do that for sure
<Yoric[DT]> How?
<bluestorm> and you can combine preprocessors with the thing the ocaml+twt processor wrote
<bluestorm> hm
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<bluestorm> the easiest way is probably a syntax extension that add stuff before "implem"
<bluestorm> (and signature also if needed)
<bluestorm> a filter would work fine too
<Yoric[DT]> But that will have a different effect.
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> how that ?
<Yoric[DT]> If you have a struct inside a .ml, it will call twice [open Bla].
<Yoric[DT]> Won't it?
<bluestorm> i don't think so
<Yoric[DT]> If so, it may mask useful names.
<bluestorm> "implem" is a file-wide construct iirc
<Yoric[DT]> Doesn't "implem" serve also for "struct"?
<Yoric[DT]> Ah, ok.
<flux> it's slightly negative is using batteries requires camlp4, because camlp4's syntax errors differ from ocaml's
<Yoric[DT]> My bad.
<bluestorm> structs only use str_item
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<flux> also it needs to work in the toplevel also in a natural way
<bluestorm> yes
<flux> "negative if", not "is"
<bluestorm> would it not be possible to use modified ocaml/ocamlc/ocamlopt instead of changing each file ?
<bluestorm> i'm thinking the ocamlmktop kind of things
<bluestorm> hm
<flux> well, it's a less-than-optimal situation if everyone needs to upgrade ocaml etc for batteries
<bluestorm> it's actually probably harder than the camlp4 way
<bluestorm> flux: i don't think "anyone" would be concerned
<Yoric[DT]> Well, if you find a ocamlmktop kind of stuff, good.
<Yoric[DT]> But the source code of ocamlc seems to disagree with that option.
<bluestorm> i'm perfectly happy with the included batlib using ocamlfind manually
<bluestorm> and i suppose most powerusers would react the same
<Yoric[DT]> It's not the matter of using ocamlfind.
<bluestorm> hm
<Yoric[DT]> It's the matter of using ocamlfind + having to write "use Batteries.Standard".
<Yoric[DT]> That's one too many :)
<flux> I think the best option still might be adding a new command line option to ocamlc that allows adding "open" to all compiled files
<flux> although that still requires patching atleast ocamlc and friends, possibly ocamlfind
<Yoric[DT]> flux: a patch to that effect has been on the bugtracker since 2005.
<flux> yoric[dt], so, it would just be a bug fix, perfect :)
<Palace_Chan> to quickly define an anonymous combine function which combines some two ints to make a third is the syntax: (fun f x y -> x+y) ?
<bluestorm> no "f"
<bluestorm> (fun x y -> x + y)
<bluestorm> but (+) does the same
<bluestorm> (+) is the function corrresponding to the infix operator +
<Palace_Chan> ah ok, thanks (i was getting compile error
<Yoric[DT]> Well, anyway, we can survive with ocamlfind + "use Batteries.Standard" until version 0.1+.
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<ertai> Yoric[DT]: pong
<Yoric[DT]> ertai: question sent by e-mail :)
<Yoric[DT]> (and bluestorm may have answered it anyway)
<ertai> Yoric[DT]: answered by mail
<Yoric[DT]> Thanks
<ertai> For others (untested one-liner extension): AstFilters.register_str_item_filter (fun st -> <:str_item< open Foo; $st$ >>);;
<Yoric[DT]> What do I need to open for that?
<Yoric[DT]> Any functor?
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<ertai> Yoric[DT]: no Camlp4.PreCast should suffice
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<Yoric[DT]> thanks
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<_y_> I'm reading an OCaml codebase atm, and I see the following term: "~-1" ... playing around with the interpreter, I can't see any difference between this and "-1"
<_y_> what's the purpose of this?
<Eridius> huh, I wonder what that means
<flux> let foo a b = a + b;;
<flux> foo -1 -2;; -> illegal
<flux> foo ~-1 ~-2 -> ok
<Eridius> huh
<Eridius> curious syntax
<_y_> thank you flux
<flux> foo -1 -2 is the same as foo - 1 - 2, obviously
<flux> so to differentiate there is an additional syntax
<flux> most of the time I might just use foo (-1) (-2), though
<flux> but, it gets worse :P, behold! ~-.1.0
<Eridius> ...wtf?
<Eridius> oh, negation for floats is -.? I never thought about that
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<Palace_Chan> why does this: "let (<@) (a : int32) (b : int32) : bool = if (Int32.compare a b) < 0 true else false"
<Palace_Chan> give me a syntax error ?
<Eridius> you're missing "then"
<Palace_Chan> Eridius, AH totally forgot
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<bluestorm> Palace_Chan:
<bluestorm> "if foo then true else false" looks like suboptimal
<bluestorm> (as does "then false else true" or "then ... else true" or any other occurence of "[then/else] [true/false]")
<Palace_Chan> bluestorm, what would be optimal ?
<Eridius> Palace_Chan: stripping the if and leaving the condition
<Eridius> just say Int32.compare a b
<Eridius> err, < 0
<Palace_Chan> oh because the expression evaluates to bool anyways
<Yoric[DT]> yep
<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: if you're interested, I just updated the documentation.
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<Yoric[DT]> 'night everyone
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<xevz_> it
xevz_ has quit [Client Quit]