flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<Associat0r> Smerdyakov: I read the intro and some of chapter 2, it is great how you compare all the tools out there, and even for a relative newbie it is understandable, I really gonna work trough the whole book soon
<Smerdyakov> It doesn't go much beyond Chapter 2 yet. ;)
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov: I am also reading "how to prove it" when I finish that one I will work through yours
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<palomer> Smerdyakov has a book?
<palomer> I took a course which covered some dependent types
<palomer> it used... LF
<palomer> didn't understand anything.
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<electronx> just wondering why is haskell so fast in thread ring benchmarks compared to haskell
<electronx> compared to ocaml srry
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<Associat0r> electronx : yeah that is pretty fast and clean too
<Associat0r> electronx : I wonder if that threading lib is coded in full haskell or not
<electronx> yeah the peformance is awesome
<mbishop> actually, it's more accurate to say GHC
<mbishop> since haskell doesn't define any concurrency, I don't believe
<Associat0r> mbishop : do you have any idea why it is so fast?
<mbishop> not really, might have something to do with mutability (or lack thereof)
<Associat0r> also mono's GC is not concurrent yet right?
<Associat0r> mbishop : what do you think of ATS?
* mbishop shrugs
<mbishop> I saw it the other day
<mbishop> I could totally tell it was derived either from Ocaml, or from someone who knew Ocaml, heh
<Associat0r> yeah but it outperforms all stuff on the shootout
<electronx> any idea when ocaml will ship with concurrent gc?
<mbishop> ATS generates C, doesn't it?
<mbishop> electronx: probably never? or at least until someone forks it heh
<Associat0r> mbishop : not sure
<mbishop> I was interested to learn that Modula-3 has a concurrent GC
<Associat0r> mbishop : what about mono's GC?
<electronx> better then ocaml as wll
<electronx> ATS is i mean
<Associat0r> it outperforms C and C++ in most cases
<mbishop> I like how PLT Scheme is high up in that list, heh
<Associat0r> that is what is remarkable
<electronx> heh plt scheme is slow
<Associat0r> mbishop : you know about mono's GC?
<mbishop> no
<electronx> Associat0r: do you use ocaml?
<Associat0r> no I need the operator overloading of F#
<Associat0r> also I am used to visual studio
<electronx> ocaml is getting operator overloading
<Associat0r> but I follow ocaml's developments
<Associat0r> also floating point boxing is an issue
<electronx> it was added during the summer school projects
<electronx> floating point boxing?
<Associat0r> I will be doing lots of numerical stuff
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<Associat0r> electronx : are you sure op overloading is in ocaml?
<Associat0r> electronx : don't you mean the delimited op overloading?
<Associat0r> electronx : or the camlp4 thing?
<Associat0r> electronx : also I would have to miss the #light syntax
<electronx> delimited overloading
<Associat0r> yeah that is not real op overloading
<electronx> is that the same?
<electronx> oh okay
<Associat0r> no
<electronx> whats the difference
<palomer> concurrent GC seems to be a hot topic as of late
<Associat0r> also pattern matching in F# is extended IIRC and it has sequence expressions etc without camlp4
<Associat0r> delimted overloading is done with camlp4 I think and it had some additional notiation to it
<electronx> ah
<Associat0r> so it wasn't fully transparent
<electronx> palomer: multicore becoming more prevelent
<Associat0r> but then ocaml's type system is supposed to be more sound because of the lack of op overloading
<mbishop> palomer: what's weird is that it seemed to have already been done in other languages before OCaml even came about
<mbishop> so I don't see how it's a hot topic "now" and I don't see why they claim it's so complex
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<electronx> ocaml development is slow maybe they just don't have the time
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<electronx> or they don't need some features
<palomer> isn't ocaml still coq centric?
<mbishop> I remember reading somewhere where Xavier Leroy said it was too complex to implement or something
<electronx> mbishop: in 2002
<Associat0r> the cleanest way todo op overloading is the haskell way with type classes I think but that coms with a perf penalty I think, I am not 100% sure
<palomer> I'm not the biggest fan of typeclasses
<palomer> for example, you have to use functional dependencies to avoid ambiguities
<Associat0r> yeah I forgot about that
<palomer> type classes are used to simulate operator overloading sometimes, classes othertimes, but sometimes they just can't cut either
<Associat0r> well each language has it's weak and strong points
<Associat0r> palomer : what do you think of thr F# way?
<palomer> I don't know the F# way
<palomer> and I don't understand the sml way
<Associat0r> the F# way is uses some special case with type member constraints
<palomer> I've always been a fan of the C++ way
<electronx> lol
<Associat0r> palomer : yeah same here
<palomer> no kidding!
<Associat0r> palomer : but maybe it is because I used C++ first
<palomer> ditto
<Associat0r> I don't think op overloading would scale with type inference in C++
<Associat0r> I also used to think C++ templates were the best thing ever until I heard of ML and the likes
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<palomer> I still thing templates are great
<palomer> and haven't anything equivalent anywhere
<palomer> (except maybe scheme)
<Associat0r> you can do some great things with it like simulating dependent types
<Associat0r> but they have no semantics and C++ code isn't automatically generlized
<Associat0r> it is like a language in a language actually
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<Associat0r> palomer : what do you think of bit-c?
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<palomer> Associat0r, never heard of it
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<Associat0r> read a post from teh creator
<Associat0r> palomer : http://bitc-lang.org/
<Associat0r> palomer : http://felix-lang.org/ might also be worth a look
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<palomer> doesn't look like anything I'd need
<palomer> heard of felix
<palomer> doesn't look like anything I'd user either
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
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<flux> how is one supposed to use "include" in .mli-files?
<flux> right, you need to define "module type" in another module
<flux> but if you normally just define an .mli, it's not a module type
<flux> it would be nice if include could also include the implementation version somehow :)
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<flux> this way you could have tedious.ml, public.mli and public.ml, where public.mli would include Tedious
<flux> (which would mainly contain type definitions etc, which would essentially be duplicated in the corresponding mli anyway)
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<Yoric[DT]> yeah
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<flux> still no Jane Street end-of-summer information available :/
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't quite have much hopes for the multi-core gc anymore.
<flux> I suppose it didn't look very feasible from the start anyway. but there are many other interesting projects there.
<flux> atleast the problem domain might now be known better :)
<flux> (hopefully the attempts and problems will be documented)
<Yoric[DT]> flux: have you seen the latest post on the mailing-list ?
<flux> csml?
<flux> or what mailing list?
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<flux> I don't follow any osp mailing lists
<Yoric[DT]> csml
<flux> yes, it looked interesting, even if the some compiler part is proprietary
<flux> but as a linux-developer I don't have much real-world interest in .NET-stuff
<flux> other than for broadening the user base of the programs I might write :)
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<Associat0r> flux : you can still use mono
<Yoric[DT]> Not in that case, it seems.
<Associat0r> does anyone know the state of the mono concurrent GC?
<Yoric[DT]> No idea.
<Yoric[DT]> Speaking of which, does anyone know if there's a concurrent GC in LLVM or HLVM?
<Yoric[DT]> Mmhhh....
<Yoric[DT]> Seems there's one in LLVM.
<Associat0r> yes LLVM has one
<Associat0r> Yoric[DT] : what do you think of ATS?
* Yoric[DT] is really starting to wondering if a port of OCaml to LLVM could be interesting.
<Yoric[DT]> Associat0r: I haven't had time to look too deeply.
<Yoric[DT]> It looks interesting.
<Yoric[DT]> However, my passport implies that if I need dependent types, I should employ Coq :)
<Yoric[DT]> s/implies/intimates/
<flux> what?
<flux> passport is something one needs to get in/out of a [foreign] country, how is that relevant?-)
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<Yoric[DT]> Well, I'm French.
<Yoric[DT]> So I have a national duty of using Coq.
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<flux> for windows-development I have a feeling I prefer Godi - if it works/is going to work
<flux> but an llvm-backend would be very interesting
<flux> are there other than the c-compiler for LLVM yet?
<Yoric[DT]> What do you mean?
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: ping
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], pong
<Yoric[DT]> Do you suggest a particular IDE for Coq?
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<Smerdyakov> Proof General
<Smerdyakov> This suggestion is found with all my other suggestions so far, in my book. :P
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<Smerdyakov> Also, your question is more appropriate for #coq.
<Yoric[DT]> Thanks.
* Yoric[DT] carries his next question on #coq.
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<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : about creating languages and programmers being obsolete who can't, do you mean EDSL's, DSL's or full fledged langues like ocaml?
<Smerdyakov> I suppose anyone who couldn't implement OCaml is in bad shape as a programmer, but that doesn't mean that most programmers will implement languages so expansive.
<Smerdyakov> In general, I was talking about the importance of being able to implement DSLs, which tends to imply general knowledge of PL implementation.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't think many people could implement the full OCaml.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't think he could reimplement the full OCaml (or at least not before a dozen years).
<Smerdyakov> Right, and I'm postulating that the people who can will find themselves grabbing increasing shares of business from the rest.
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<Yoric[DT]> s/before/in less than/
<Smerdyakov> Taking a dozen years is fine; you just have to have it in you. :)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Associat0r> Smerdyakov : I think I could implement it within few years if I wanted to
<Yoric[DT]> Unfortunately, the trend I'm seeing is people who can't code the factorial being hired as programmers.
<Smerdyakov> Yoric[DT], I have a strong feeling that trend will reverse in the coming decades.
<Yoric[DT]> I surely hope so.
<Yoric[DT]> Actually, I believe we will rather end up with two different job descriptions.
<Associat0r> when AI takes over we will be all obsolete anyway
<Yoric[DT]> Architects vs. construction workers.
<Smerdyakov> I mostly agree, but I hope more of your less exclusive level will be performed by people with almost no special training, so that a title like "construction worker" is going too far.
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<Yoric[DT]> Well, as long as there's a way to either shoot yourself in the foot (i.e. anything but dependently-typed programming languages) or not manage to get the computer to understand what you mean (i.e. anything more complex than word), I'm not sure that "almost no special training" is a possibility.
<Smerdyakov> I do indeed include very strong type systems as a key element to the new world order I propose.
<Smerdyakov> Probably not dependent types, but busy types.
<Yoric[DT]> busy types?
<Smerdyakov> Type systems with non-trivial programming languages inside them
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<Associat0r> kinda like C++ templates?
<Smerdyakov> Only in a vague sense. The real action in C++ isn't in the types, though maybe mentioning a particular type goes and triggers expression/command-level action.
* Yoric[DT] has seen some scary concurrency combinators implemented as C++ templates.
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<Yoric[DT]> (in the template language, that is)
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<palomer> hrmph
<palomer> many of my packages have been removed recently
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<im_alone> !version
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