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<Associat0r>
Smerdyakov: I read the intro and some of chapter 2, it is great how you compare all the tools out there, and even for a relative newbie it is understandable, I really gonna work trough the whole book soon
<Smerdyakov>
It doesn't go much beyond Chapter 2 yet. ;)
<Associat0r>
Smerdyakov: I am also reading "how to prove it" when I finish that one I will work through yours
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<palomer>
Smerdyakov has a book?
<palomer>
I took a course which covered some dependent types
<palomer>
it used... LF
<palomer>
didn't understand anything.
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<electronx>
just wondering why is haskell so fast in thread ring benchmarks compared to haskell
<electronx>
compared to ocaml srry
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<Associat0r>
electronx : yeah that is pretty fast and clean too
<Associat0r>
electronx : I wonder if that threading lib is coded in full haskell or not
<electronx>
yeah the peformance is awesome
<mbishop>
actually, it's more accurate to say GHC
<mbishop>
since haskell doesn't define any concurrency, I don't believe
<Associat0r>
mbishop : do you have any idea why it is so fast?
<mbishop>
not really, might have something to do with mutability (or lack thereof)
<Associat0r>
also mono's GC is not concurrent yet right?
<Associat0r>
I will be doing lots of numerical stuff
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<Associat0r>
electronx : are you sure op overloading is in ocaml?
<Associat0r>
electronx : don't you mean the delimited op overloading?
<Associat0r>
electronx : or the camlp4 thing?
<Associat0r>
electronx : also I would have to miss the #light syntax
<electronx>
delimited overloading
<Associat0r>
yeah that is not real op overloading
<electronx>
is that the same?
<electronx>
oh okay
<Associat0r>
no
<electronx>
whats the difference
<palomer>
concurrent GC seems to be a hot topic as of late
<Associat0r>
also pattern matching in F# is extended IIRC and it has sequence expressions etc without camlp4
<Associat0r>
delimted overloading is done with camlp4 I think and it had some additional notiation to it
<electronx>
ah
<Associat0r>
so it wasn't fully transparent
<electronx>
palomer: multicore becoming more prevelent
<Associat0r>
but then ocaml's type system is supposed to be more sound because of the lack of op overloading
<mbishop>
palomer: what's weird is that it seemed to have already been done in other languages before OCaml even came about
<mbishop>
so I don't see how it's a hot topic "now" and I don't see why they claim it's so complex
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<electronx>
ocaml development is slow maybe they just don't have the time
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<electronx>
or they don't need some features
<palomer>
isn't ocaml still coq centric?
<mbishop>
I remember reading somewhere where Xavier Leroy said it was too complex to implement or something
<electronx>
mbishop: in 2002
<Associat0r>
the cleanest way todo op overloading is the haskell way with type classes I think but that coms with a perf penalty I think, I am not 100% sure
<palomer>
I'm not the biggest fan of typeclasses
<palomer>
for example, you have to use functional dependencies to avoid ambiguities
<Associat0r>
yeah I forgot about that
<palomer>
type classes are used to simulate operator overloading sometimes, classes othertimes, but sometimes they just can't cut either
<Associat0r>
well each language has it's weak and strong points
<Associat0r>
palomer : what do you think of thr F# way?
<palomer>
I don't know the F# way
<palomer>
and I don't understand the sml way
<Associat0r>
the F# way is uses some special case with type member constraints
<palomer>
I've always been a fan of the C++ way
<electronx>
lol
<Associat0r>
palomer : yeah same here
<palomer>
no kidding!
<Associat0r>
palomer : but maybe it is because I used C++ first
<palomer>
ditto
<Associat0r>
I don't think op overloading would scale with type inference in C++
<Associat0r>
I also used to think C++ templates were the best thing ever until I heard of ML and the likes
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<palomer>
I still thing templates are great
<palomer>
and haven't anything equivalent anywhere
<palomer>
(except maybe scheme)
<Associat0r>
you can do some great things with it like simulating dependent types
<Associat0r>
but they have no semantics and C++ code isn't automatically generlized
<Associat0r>
it is like a language in a language actually
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<Associat0r>
palomer : what do you think of bit-c?
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<palomer>
doesn't look like anything I'd user either
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi
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<flux>
how is one supposed to use "include" in .mli-files?
<flux>
right, you need to define "module type" in another module
<flux>
but if you normally just define an .mli, it's not a module type
<flux>
it would be nice if include could also include the implementation version somehow :)
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<flux>
this way you could have tedious.ml, public.mli and public.ml, where public.mli would include Tedious
<flux>
(which would mainly contain type definitions etc, which would essentially be duplicated in the corresponding mli anyway)
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<Yoric[DT]>
yeah
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<flux>
still no Jane Street end-of-summer information available :/
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah.
* Yoric[DT]
doesn't quite have much hopes for the multi-core gc anymore.
<flux>
I suppose it didn't look very feasible from the start anyway. but there are many other interesting projects there.
<flux>
atleast the problem domain might now be known better :)
<flux>
(hopefully the attempts and problems will be documented)
<Yoric[DT]>
flux: have you seen the latest post on the mailing-list ?
<flux>
csml?
<flux>
or what mailing list?
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<flux>
I don't follow any osp mailing lists
<Yoric[DT]>
csml
<flux>
yes, it looked interesting, even if the some compiler part is proprietary
<flux>
but as a linux-developer I don't have much real-world interest in .NET-stuff
<flux>
other than for broadening the user base of the programs I might write :)
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<Associat0r>
flux : you can still use mono
<Yoric[DT]>
Not in that case, it seems.
<Associat0r>
does anyone know the state of the mono concurrent GC?
<Yoric[DT]>
No idea.
<Yoric[DT]>
Speaking of which, does anyone know if there's a concurrent GC in LLVM or HLVM?
<Yoric[DT]>
Mmhhh....
<Yoric[DT]>
Seems there's one in LLVM.
<Associat0r>
yes LLVM has one
<Associat0r>
Yoric[DT] : what do you think of ATS?
* Yoric[DT]
is really starting to wondering if a port of OCaml to LLVM could be interesting.
<Yoric[DT]>
Associat0r: I haven't had time to look too deeply.
<Yoric[DT]>
It looks interesting.
<Yoric[DT]>
However, my passport implies that if I need dependent types, I should employ Coq :)
<Yoric[DT]>
s/implies/intimates/
<flux>
what?
<flux>
passport is something one needs to get in/out of a [foreign] country, how is that relevant?-)
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<Yoric[DT]>
Well, I'm French.
<Yoric[DT]>
So I have a national duty of using Coq.
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<flux>
for windows-development I have a feeling I prefer Godi - if it works/is going to work
<flux>
but an llvm-backend would be very interesting
<flux>
are there other than the c-compiler for LLVM yet?
<Yoric[DT]>
What do you mean?
<Yoric[DT]>
Smerdyakov: ping
<Smerdyakov>
Yoric[DT], pong
<Yoric[DT]>
Do you suggest a particular IDE for Coq?
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<Smerdyakov>
Proof General
<Smerdyakov>
This suggestion is found with all my other suggestions so far, in my book. :P
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<Smerdyakov>
Also, your question is more appropriate for #coq.
<Yoric[DT]>
Thanks.
* Yoric[DT]
carries his next question on #coq.
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<Associat0r>
Smerdyakov : about creating languages and programmers being obsolete who can't, do you mean EDSL's, DSL's or full fledged langues like ocaml?
<Smerdyakov>
I suppose anyone who couldn't implement OCaml is in bad shape as a programmer, but that doesn't mean that most programmers will implement languages so expansive.
<Smerdyakov>
In general, I was talking about the importance of being able to implement DSLs, which tends to imply general knowledge of PL implementation.
* Yoric[DT]
doesn't think many people could implement the full OCaml.
* Yoric[DT]
doesn't think he could reimplement the full OCaml (or at least not before a dozen years).
<Smerdyakov>
Right, and I'm postulating that the people who can will find themselves grabbing increasing shares of business from the rest.
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<Yoric[DT]>
s/before/in less than/
<Smerdyakov>
Taking a dozen years is fine; you just have to have it in you. :)
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<Associat0r>
Smerdyakov : I think I could implement it within few years if I wanted to
<Yoric[DT]>
Unfortunately, the trend I'm seeing is people who can't code the factorial being hired as programmers.
<Smerdyakov>
Yoric[DT], I have a strong feeling that trend will reverse in the coming decades.
<Yoric[DT]>
I surely hope so.
<Yoric[DT]>
Actually, I believe we will rather end up with two different job descriptions.
<Associat0r>
when AI takes over we will be all obsolete anyway
<Yoric[DT]>
Architects vs. construction workers.
<Smerdyakov>
I mostly agree, but I hope more of your less exclusive level will be performed by people with almost no special training, so that a title like "construction worker" is going too far.
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<Yoric[DT]>
Well, as long as there's a way to either shoot yourself in the foot (i.e. anything but dependently-typed programming languages) or not manage to get the computer to understand what you mean (i.e. anything more complex than word), I'm not sure that "almost no special training" is a possibility.
<Smerdyakov>
I do indeed include very strong type systems as a key element to the new world order I propose.
<Smerdyakov>
Probably not dependent types, but busy types.
<Yoric[DT]>
busy types?
<Smerdyakov>
Type systems with non-trivial programming languages inside them
<Yoric[DT]>
ok
<Associat0r>
kinda like C++ templates?
<Smerdyakov>
Only in a vague sense. The real action in C++ isn't in the types, though maybe mentioning a particular type goes and triggers expression/command-level action.
* Yoric[DT]
has seen some scary concurrency combinators implemented as C++ templates.
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<Yoric[DT]>
(in the template language, that is)
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<palomer>
hrmph
<palomer>
many of my packages have been removed recently
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<im_alone>
!version
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