* palomer
is thinking of removing the widgets from the text view
<palomer>
I _should_ be writing tutorials on lablgtk though
<palomer>
stuff like drawing rectangles
<palomer>
tooltips
<palomer>
the cool stuff
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<palomer>
flux, do you know if signals go from parent to child in gtk?
<flux>
palomer, I have only passing familiarity with gtk, so no idea
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi
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<rwmjones>
Yoric[DT], ping
<tsuyoshi>
the lablgtk2 docs are very bare bones
<tsuyoshi>
it would be nice if someone translated the c docs to ocaml
<tsuyoshi>
I keep thinking I will do it myself someday, but I haven't yet
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<rwmjones>
tsuyoshi, there's a quite good lablgtk2 tutorial whch is translated from the C tutorials
<tsuyoshi>
yeah I saw that
<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones: pong
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<tsuyoshi>
but I mean the reference manual
<tsuyoshi>
I've written a few thousand lines of lablgtk2-using code and I had to refer to the c manual constantly
<tsuyoshi>
I've already written programs in c using gtk so I knew the basics already
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<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones: sorry, wife calling, I'll be back later
<rwmjones>
Yoric[DT], I've just sent something to ocaml-reins-devel about segment trees (not appeared on the web yet though). Was wondering if you'd decided on a segment tree impl yet for batteries.
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<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones: iirc, my only problem with reins is that they are not packaged.
<Yoric[DT]>
(i.e. iirc, no GODI, no rpm, no deb)
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<rwmjones>
Yoric[DT], there's a deb & RPM, not sure about godi though
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<bluestorm>
rwmjones: do you know if someone has been considering the Enum change patches ?
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<bluestorm>
(i decided to wait for any noticeable activity before sending more splitted patches, because splitting patches is long and repetitive and not really fun)
<tsuyoshi>
what are the changes to enum?
<bluestorm>
tsuyoshi: Yoric ported functions from the SDFlow library
<bluestorm>
(some other changes, including one affecting the init/clone behavior)
<flux>
so will the enumerations be re-iterable? functional?
<bluestorm>
flux: no they won't
<flux>
too much of a performance hit?
<bluestorm>
there is a lazy list library intended for that
<bluestorm>
flux: actually i'm myself not sure a functional enumeration wouldn't be a better choice; anyway, the current choice is to go with destructive enumerations by default (with lazy lists available if you want to)
<flux>
bluestorm, but is it a performance or usability-choice?
<bluestorm>
hm
<flux>
too much gc-garbage is they were reusable?
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<bluestorm>
there is the (alleged) performance difference, and it seems they're considered easier to iterate (it's true that in some cases, stream parsing is a real killer), but i suspect the main reason is that Enum has been the common place inside Extlib for quite some time, and that Extlib is not exactly prone to quick changes
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<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones: ok, my bad
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<rwmjones>
bluestorm, yes I need to take a look at those patches
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<Yoric[DT]>
flux: actually, enumerations and lazy lists have different purposes.
<Yoric[DT]>
One is persistent, the other isn't.
<Yoric[DT]>
Conversion from one to the other is now trivial.
<Yoric[DT]>
(LazyList.enum / LazyList.of_enum)
<flux>
a high-level documentation of thw library would be nice, but too much work I suppose
<Yoric[DT]>
thw?
<flux>
the
<Yoric[DT]>
ah, ok :)
* Yoric[DT]
wondered if it was a combination of twt and lwt :)
<bluestorm>
flux: you mean Enum ?
<flux>
:)
<flux>
bluestorm, of the whole shebang ;)
<Yoric[DT]>
On a different note, I believe I have finally found how to get ocamlbuild+ocamldoc+custom generators to play nicely.
* Yoric[DT]
is currently testing.
<flux>
I wonder how a "write documentation"-license would work
<flux>
use as you wish, but write documentation :)
<bluestorm>
flux: if you're interested in the Batlib structure, there are Yoric's blog posts, and brainstorming session on the batteries mailing list
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<Yoric[DT]>
Okay, seems to work.
<Yoric[DT]>
Speaking of brainstorming, I'm wondering where bindings to other languages should go.
<Yoric[DT]>
Perhaps to a new top-level module.
<Yoric[DT]>
flux: really, if you're interested in writing documentation, you'll be quite welcome.
<bluestorm>
flux: "discuss it on IRC as you wish, but write documentation"
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<flux>
yoric[dt], ah yes.. well, about that.. ;)
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<Yoric[DT]>
:)
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<Quadrescence>
Function overloading could be done with pattern matching, right?
<flux>
the most convenient way to do that is with polymorphic variants
<Quadrescence>
i.e., with something like 'a?
<tab>
Quadrescence: polymorphic variant are the one starting with the backtick (`something)
<Quadrescence>
Ah, okay.
<flux>
module M = struct let foo = function `Int i -> Printf.printf "int:%d\n%!" i | _ -> failwith "not supported"; end;;
<flux>
module M = struct include M let foo = function `Float f -> Printf.printf "float:%f\n%!" f | other -> foo other; end;;
<flux>
M.foo (`Int 42);;
<flux>
M.foo (`Float 42);;
<flux>
although I'm not sure how to get rid of that failwith
<flux>
perhaps with an explicit signature
<flux>
perhaps someone can point me how :)
<bluestorm>
Quadrescence: what exactly do you want to do ?
<bluestorm>
i mean, you can have something a bit like overloading using advanced features
<Quadrescence>
bluestorm: Nothing at the moment. Just reading and learning. :)
<bluestorm>
but 90% of the users asking for overloading actually are beginners trying to use OCaml "the wrong way"
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<bluestorm>
i recommend you try to program in natural functional style before trying obscure things like overloading
<bluestorm>
(wich are actually not as useful as you might think)
<Quadrescence>
bluestorm: I was thinking about something like this: suppose you want to make a function that averages two numbers. I don't know how you'd do this (for any two (numerical) types a and b).
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<bluestorm>
well you can't because operations on different numerical types are different
<Quadrescence>
Since, afaik, we have + for ints, and +. for floats.
<bluestorm>
yes, the short answer is "do an average function for each type you're interested in", that is, "float"
<bluestorm>
you could actually use functors do have something general and parametrized but it's overkill in most circumstances
<flux>
quadrescence, on average, there aren't many cases you want to do the same macro-operations on both integers and floats
<flux>
quadrescence, however, I believe the case is different when you take int32, int64, etc into account
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<flux>
int64's are painful to use without opening some module
<flux>
delimited overloading is going to help with that
<flux>
well, it will help with the case of float also
<flux>
it has been many, many times when I've written float-heavy code that I've forgotten that one . somewhere..
<flux>
the compiler is quick to notify me of my mistake, though :P
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<Quadrescence>
Ocaml looks like it might be a little more fun to use than Haskell. :>
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<jdh30>
hey ho
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<tab>
Quadrescence: looks like you want something like haskell's type class in ocaml
<flux>
in certain cases one can simulate type classes with objects
<flux>
it won't work for things like integers and floats, though, unless you wrap them into an object
<tab>
and that's really ugly
<Quadrescence>
tab: I don't know. I can't say I did Haskell for VERY VERY long. Several weeks at most.
<flux>
of course, one could always write the code as a functor, and then instantiate it either with integers or with floats ;)
<flux>
(albeit it does have performance implications)
<Guest68700>
flux: But that is the ML way. :-)
<tab>
or do the write thing and add type class in ocaml ;)
<tab>
s/write/right/
<flux>
oh, and then there is gcaml ;)
<bluestorm>
would that be the right thing to do ?
<bluestorm>
type classes have disadvantages too
<tab>
it's not perfect sure
<Guest68700>
bluestorm: just copy F#, it already solved this problem...
<tab>
and if you abuse it, it can be quite nasty
<bluestorm>
have you seen the type classe consequences regarding monomorphism restriction ? it's freaky
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<tab>
bluestorm: i'm not sure i did, care to elaborate or give a pointer ?
<Quadrescence>
Is there French documentation on OCaml?
<bluestorm>
Quadrescence: yes there is
<bluestorm>
depending on what you call "documentation" at least
<tab>
bluestorm: is that not arbitrary limitation of haskell ? compare to actual limitation of type classes
<bluestorm>
tab:
<bluestorm>
the problem is that constant :: Numerical t => t
<bluestorm>
is not really a constant
<bluestorm>
i believe this is a fundamental issue of type classes, not specific to Haskell
<bluestorm>
in a sense, Functors lift the problem as the parameter passing is done only once, when you give the parameter module
<bluestorm>
(instead of virtually for each value as in type classes representation of things)
<mattam>
I think that's a non-issue. If you want an int, you have to say it: 1 :: Int is really one_of_numerical int_numerical. It makes perfect sense that one_of_numerical :: Numerical t =>/-> t.
<mattam>
Of course, given that int_numerical is a constant value, constant propagation can be done to reduce 1 :: Int to the correct 1 implementation.
<mattam>
I think the real issue is the implicit generalization by class constraints in a manner similar to implicit generalization of type variables, it is just dangerous to do that combined with an overloading mechanism.
<Quadrescence>
Is there an APT repository with the latest releases of OCaml?
<tab>
Quadrescence: the CVS version ?
<bluestorm>
tab: probably the 3.10.2
<bluestorm>
(CVS is not really a "release")
<Quadrescence>
Yeah, 3.10.2
<bluestorm>
Quadrescence: you could also try godi
<tab>
bluestorm: true
<bluestorm>
it's distro-independent and quite handy
<tab>
Quadrescence: sid repositories got it
<tab>
maybe lenny too
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<bluestorm>
the setup is not as easy as the packages of your distribution, but it's useful to compile from sources
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
actually the debian packages are quite good, so i guess you could go for the APT repository instead
<tab>
yeah lenny got 3.10.2 too
<Quadrescence>
godi looks pretty neat. :>
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<flux>
that peng zeng's approach to polymorphic comparison looks interesting
<flux>
although it extends compare only when you use objects
<Myoma>
flux where is it described
<flux>
on the caml mailing list
<Camarade_Tux>
flux, peng zang, aka the object fanatic ;)
<flux>
but the archive doesn't seem to be realtime
<flux>
camarade_tux, well, the solution looks solid
<flux>
I wonder though if its type safety guarantees work only when you inherit from 'object' or is inheriting from it a requirement for that compare method to work
<flux>
quadrescence, perhaps you've mixed doing things as root and not doing things as root in a bad way
<Quadrescence>
hum.
<flux>
or did you do anything as root?
<flux>
if so, perhaps that's a bug
<flux>
I've never installed godi to $
<flux>
~ that is
<Quadrescence>
Where did you install it to?
<flux>
/opt/stow/godi
<flux>
as root, obviously
<Quadrescence>
Yeah
<flux>
but, off from work ->
<Quadrescence>
:>
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<Quadrescence>
What is the usual way to make OCaml programs?
<bluestorm>
"make" ?
<Quadrescence>
No, I mean like
<Quadrescence>
(For something like C, the usual way would be "write code > compile > run > good? (no, go again))
<bluestorm>
ah
<bluestorm>
you can do that
<tab>
"write code > compile > good > run" :)
<bluestorm>
if your program is in only one file, you can also interpret it directly : ocaml foo.ml
<Quadrescence>
tab: Hehehe
<bluestorm>
and you can test little chunks of code in the toplevel
<bluestorm>
wich is interesting because you have type feedback and a nice priting of values
<Quadrescence>
The toplevel is pretty nice.
<bluestorm>
but if you use the toplevel in the command line
<Quadrescence>
Especially since it all doesn't have to be squeezed on one line.
<bluestorm>
you must try the line-editing program
<bluestorm>
such as ledit or rlwrap
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<bluestorm>
you call "rlwrap ocaml" and you've got an history and all those little things
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<bluestorm>
the emacs tuareg mode has a quite nice integration of the toplevel
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<hcarty>
rwmjones: ping
<rwmjones>
hcarty, pong
<hcarty>
rwmjones: There is a discussion right now on the PLplot mailing list about packaging the OCaml bindings for Fedora
<rwmjones>
hcarty, oh right, thanks I'll have a look
<hcarty>
rwmjones: Thanks. I'd be happy to (try to) make whatever changes will make life easier for the packagers. Right now, the default "make install" puts everything under $prefix, without using ocamlfind or anything of the sort
<hcarty>
The relevant messages are not in the SF archive yet, but I can paste/forward messages if they would be useful
<rwmjones>
hcarty, can you CC me in on any relevant ones please? to rjones / redhat / com
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<hcarty>
rwmjones: Ok, will do
<rwmjones>
thanks
<hcarty>
rwmjones: Is it safe and appropriate to say that you packaged most of the OCaml-related software in Fedora?
<rwmjones>
hcarty, yup, a good 80-90% I should think
<hcarty>
rwmjones: Ok, thanks
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<hcarty>
rwmjones: I sent a brief reply to one of the thread messages and CCd you. If you need any more information please feel free to ask.
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<Palace_Chan>
I'd like to grab a copy of OCaml 3.10.2 for use on Ubuntu Hardy Heron, can i sudo apt it or should i get it from http://caml.inria.fr/download.en.html ?
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<pango_>
Palace_Chan: Debian packaging is excellent, but I've already found _some_ Ubuntu packaging releases to be broken
<pango_>
Go for the packages of your distro. If you find some weirdness, you can give Debian packages a try.
<Yoric[DT]>
Palace_Chan: unless you're just trying OCaml, I suggest using Godi.
<Palace_Chan>
Godi ? I mean i signed up for a class on compilers and we will be using OCaml 3.10.2 for it, that's why i'm trying to set it up on my machine
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<pango_>
Godi is an OCaml specific sources-based packaging system
<pango_>
(I've never tried it, I'm lazy and most packages exist as .deb already ;) )
<Palace_Chan>
Any recomms on an editor for OCaml by the way ? maybe emacs is enough for it
* pango_
is using tuareg-mode under Emacs
<Palace_Chan>
pango_, what about the ocaml-core metapackage which includes the tuareg-mode ? is that 3.10.2 by the way ?
<Palace_Chan>
yea i think i saw the 3.10.0.1 thing there in ocaml-core
<pango_>
(actually I don't have ocaml-core installed; It installs cameleon and tons of libraries I don't use)
<Palace_Chan>
oh it installs cameleon ?yea you're right
<Palace_Chan>
the tuareg-mode package for me says version 1:1.45.5-1 so i really wonder if i get OCaml 3.10.2
<pango_>
tuareg-mode is an Emacs mode to handle OCaml sources, its versioning is unrelated to OCaml's one
<Palace_Chan>
is there any way to check though which version of OCaml it comes with ?
<pango_>
I don't understand what you mean
<Palace_Chan>
Well, OCaml is in version 3.10.2, i guess when i install tuareg-mode it also installs OCaml with it
<pango_>
you can install it independantly of any compiler
<Yoric[DT]>
Palace_Chan: in my experience, GODI works better than apt-get for OCaml stuff.
<Yoric[DT]>
At least under Ubuntu.
* Yoric[DT]
hasn't used a real Debian in ages.
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<Palace_Chan>
Yoric[DT], I'm not quite sure i understand what GODI is though
<Yoric[DT]>
It's an apt-get for OCaml.
<Yoric[DT]>
(or at least close enough)
<Palace_Chan>
Yoric[DT], so like apt-get godi then you do something like "godi-get OCaml"?
<Yoric[DT]>
Something like that.
<Yoric[DT]>
(actually, you run "godi_console" and get your package through menus -- I haven't checked if there's a command for direct installation à la apt-get)
<Palace_Chan>
i see
<Camarade_Tux>
there is one but it's not that easy
<Camarade_Tux>
(give me a few second to find it)
<Palace_Chan>
pango_, oh and do you have ocaml-mode installed too ?
<pango_>
tuareg-mode uses some features from the ocaml-mode code, so it's better to have both installed
<Camarade_Tux>
ok, in fact it's fairly easy (there are several ways to do that and I remembered the hard one)
<Palace_Chan>
Camarade_Tux, fairly easy to get OCaml 3.10.2 set up on Ubuntu ?
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<Camarade_Tux>
you add a "wish" to godi's wishlist with "godi_console -build apps-ocsigen" (you can add several ones at the same time), and once you're done you use "godi_console -perform -wishes", then well, you go and get at least a dozen cups of coffee ;)
<Camarade_Tux>
Palace_Chan, not using ubuntu at all but really, try ubuntu's package, they used to be broken but I think that there's now an ubuntu maintainer for ocaml afaik
<Palace_Chan>
wow
<Palace_Chan>
Camarade_Tux, well but im not sure which is the ubuntu package either...there is ocaml-core but that brings in Chameleon and stuff, so there is ocaml-mode and tuareg-mode packages though im not sure if that includes OCaml version 3.10.2
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<pango_>
ocaml-base + ocaml-native-compilers should be a bare minimum
<pango_>
(ocaml-base-nox even, if you don't plan to use tk bindings)
<Palace_Chan>
Well i guess my question is, i'm totally new to OCaml and ML, i want to learn it and i have a class which requires me to use version 3.10.2 - i'm on an Ubuntu distro...if i get the ocaml-mode and tuareg-mode packages is that enough to write, compile and all that in Ocaml in emacs ? Or do i need this website: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ocaml/3.10.2-3ubuntu1
<pango_>
to compile, you also need a compiler, neither ocaml-mode nor tuareg-mode will install one
<Camarade_Tux>
and as far as I've understood, you'd better not install the ocaml-mode, only the tuareg one (rationale : if there's only one mode available, the other one won't be used)
<Palace_Chan>
pango_, thanks ! that's good to know..ok so i need more than that
<pango_>
Camarade_Tux: tuareg-mode uses caml-mode code for specific features (like parsing .annot files)
<Palace_Chan>
so i need a compiler, do i need anything else ? like a preprocessor or something i am not aware of ?
<pango_>
so, to fully exploit tuareg-mode, you need both
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<Camarade_Tux>
pango_, ok, I was mislead by the description on ubuntu's site (and vim :d )
<pango_>
Palace_Chan: I hope I don't miss important packages, but "ocaml-base ocaml-nox ocaml-native-compilers camlp4 camlp5 ocaml-findlib ocaml-mode tuareg-mode otags" should be sufficient for writing symbolic processing programs like compilers
<Palace_Chan>
pango_, wow and i have a feeling even ocaml-core might not include those all
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<pango_>
anyway it's not that hard to install further packages if you even lack something ;)
<pango_>
s/even/ever/
<Palace_Chan>
true
<Palace_Chan>
hmm ocaml-core does not include camlp5 only camlp4 and camlp4-extra
<Palace_Chan>
no big deal or yea "
<Palace_Chan>
?
<pango_>
ledit, cle or rlwrap can be useful to provide readline-like editing features to the ocaml toplevel (if you plan to use the toplevel outside of Emacs)
<bluestorm>
Palace_Chan: when you say "that requires 3.10.2"
<bluestorm>
are you sure it is _required_
<bluestorm>
?
<pango_>
camlp4 and camlp5 are OCaml preprocessors. camlp5 is the new name for the old preprocessor (pre ocaml 3.10), but it can be useful to have both if you find code that wasn't updated
<bluestorm>
i mean, your teacher may use it but unless he precisely highlighted this fact, it is highly unlikely that 3.10.0 woudn't fit
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<Palace_Chan>
oh i see
<Camarade_Tux>
(ocamlnet did not really enjoyed .0 iirc)
<bluestorm>
even 3.09, although there are more difference between 3.09 and 3.10 than 3.10 and 3.10.2, is probably a good choice
<Palace_Chan>
i see
<Palace_Chan>
im gonna check it out be back later, thanks for the help guys
<Camarade_Tux>
Palace_Chan, there are usually little change between ocaml versions, if you don't need external libraries, 3.09 or even earlier will fit
<Palace_Chan>
kk
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<Camarade_Tux>
btw, the shootout has been updated and now features 64bits and multi-core systems
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<Yoric[DT]>
'night everyone
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<im_alone>
i wanted caml light at ocaml speed
<Smerdyakov>
im_alone, why?
<im_alone>
because i wanna oo features
<Smerdyakov>
Your last line is not valid English, and I don't know what it means.
<im_alone>
because i don't want Object Oriented features
<im_alone>
i'm very pascalete, my philosophy is structured programming.
<Smerdyakov>
Then don't use them. Hardly any OCaml programmers use OO.
<Smerdyakov>
Caml Light is an educational toy. OCaml is a real language.
<Smerdyakov>
The OO is really orthogonal to this difference.
<Jedai>
Anyway Camllight translate almost directly to OCaml
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