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<palomer>
flux, you around?
<flux>
yes
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<Watza>
J'ai trop mal dormi
<Watza>
j'espère que vous, vous avez bien dormi !!
<Watza>
allez bizou la room
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<fremo_>
</mylife>
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<knucker>
Hello, in http://pastebin.com/m56ebbcc5 I get a warning that I cannot understand It says that I am not matching opt_args (a string list) exhaustively... I am matching on [], [opt_arg], _ ... any clues?
<bluestorm>
knucker:
<knucker>
I've placed a comment "BEGINNING OF WARNING" for where the warning is relevant... and placed the full compiler warning at the end
<bluestorm>
you don't match the more-than-one-element case
<bluestorm>
[] is the empty list and [opt_arg] is a singleton list
<bluestorm>
two-element liste and more are not matched
<knucker>
I'm matching _
<bluestorm>
aah
<bluestorm>
indentation failure
<bluestorm>
| _ -> goes for the "try .. with
<bluestorm>
use a begin .. end around your try with construct
<knucker>
?
<bluestorm>
match ... with ... -> try ... with .. -> ... | ... -> ...
<knucker>
ahhh gotcha...
<bluestorm>
the last pattern is attached to the "try ... with" match clauses
<bluestorm>
i should have seen that earlier
<bluestorm>
but your hell-a-lot-more-than-80-columns lines distracted me
<bluestorm>
:-'
<knucker>
Fixed! thanks
<bluestorm>
i suggest you try indenting a bit less
<bluestorm>
8-indentation is not really feasible in a functional language, where there is quite a lot of nesting
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<bluestorm>
i think the ocaml de facto standard is 2, but you can use 4 if you're used to bigger indents
<knucker>
8 indentation? These are tabs... it's probably just pastebin
<knucker>
OcaIDE renders these as 2's
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<bluestorm>
ah
<bluestorm>
"why you shouldn't use tabs for indentation", explained to kids
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<bluestorm>
are you an Erlang user ?
<knucker>
There's a very big debate.... I generally prefer spaces.. just never bothered changing the settings in Eclipse :-)
<knucker>
Yeah, I do use erlang.. there I stick to spaces (I got around changing preferences)
<bluestorm>
i knew i had already seen that _obj pattern trick somewhere :p
<knucker>
It's the two languages I am learning at the same time.. I wish it would be easy to use them together... but hell.. I'm just starting
<knucker>
That's mentioned in the Ocaml oreilly PDF too, though
<bluestorm>
hm i've seen some Erlocaml noise some time ago
<knucker>
...at least I think... if not, it's a good practice _regardless.. (IMO)
<knucker>
OCaml is very interesting.. shame it doesn't support proper threads... doing a heavy-weight RPC call isn't always practical if all you want to do is use another CPU
<bluestorm>
you can use fork
<knucker>
fork, as in C-Unix fork?
<bluestorm>
yes
* knucker
shivers with distaste
<bluestorm>
:p
<bluestorm>
actually there is an OCaml module implementing the Thread modules (and more) over processus with fork
<knucker>
I'll have a read up.. you still don't address the main advantate of threads... being able for two things to read the same data
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<bluestorm>
would anyone be interested in a pa_where syntax extension, allowing unconstrained "where" backward-declarations in the classical syntax ?
<vixey>
why would that be used instead of let?
<bluestorm>
because it allows top-to-bottom declarative style
<bluestorm>
it is not meant to replace let, but having both is useful
<bluestorm>
the syntaxic drawback is another "dangling" case : let a = b in c where d = e and f = g
<bluestorm>
(and i'm ashamed to admit that as long as i haven't actually tried the camlp4 implementation, i have no idea how the ambiguity will he resolved, even if i could probably enforce one direction or the other with levels)
<bluestorm>
vixey: when writing/using haskell, don't you feel that having both "let" and "where" declarations is useful ?
<bluestorm>
s/using/reading/
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<bluestorm>
hm
<vixey>
I think it let rec
<bluestorm>
syntaxic problem : "where" at toplevel would force ";;" on the precedent let-declaration
<vixey>
in haskell they use a lot of indentation for the parsing
<bluestorm>
vixey: mutual recursion can emulate top-to-bottom style but it add subtleties, bugs, and comprehension difficulties
<vixey>
wheres are mutually recursive
<vixey>
I was imagining,
<bluestorm>
hm
<vixey>
X where Y as let rec Y in X
<bluestorm>
nope, you would need an explicit "rec" declaration
<bluestorm>
x where Y => let Y in X
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
let's force ;; for now
<bluestorm>
btw
<bluestorm>
i think it would be feasible to write a dangling-warning extension
<vixey>
it sounds like a lot of work to me
<bluestorm>
that is, an syntaxic extension that would detect dangling case and check that the indentation is consistent with the actual meaning
<bluestorm>
vixey: wich one ?
<vixey>
adding where and such
<bluestorm>
hm, "where" should not be very difficult, camlp4 is a flexible tool
<bluestorm>
l
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<flux>
bluestorm, haskell can better get on withthe where-syntax due to lazy evaluation
<flux>
let a = print_endline "foo" where _ = print_endline "bar"
<flux>
I suppose whomever writing that would be evil, though ;)
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<flux>
now, lets say if all the identifiers on the right side of where were defined with let foo = lazy(expr) and when referred on the left side they would convert into Lazy.force foo.. ;-)
<vixey>
Has anybody added something like do notation?
<bluestorm>
vixey: yes
<bluestorm>
btw
<bluestorm>
do you know if someone has a syntax extension for let! monadic notation in OCaml ?
<bluestorm>
it is nicer than the Haskell do notation
<bluestorm>
flux: i don't think strictness would be a problem
<vixey>
I've not heard of this notation
<bluestorm>
i mean
<bluestorm>
vixey: instead of
<bluestorm>
a <- b
<bluestorm>
you write
<bluestorm>
let! a = b in
<flux>
bluestorm, do you think my example would not compile, or that it is clear to understand?
<bluestorm>
(it is nicer in OCaml because it is more coherent with the syntax, whereas "<-" makes sense in Haskell because it is similar to the declaration syntax)
<mfp>
<bluestorm> would anyone be interested in a pa_where syntax extension, allowing unconstrained "where" backward-declarations in the classical syntax ? -> I once wrote a left-associative pa_where (not right assoc as in the revised syntax IIRC)
<bluestorm>
any code left ?
<mfp>
let! looks pretty good
<vixey>
>>= \o ->
<flux>
bluestorm, would it only change the <- to let! or also some other aspects?
<mfp>
let me see....
<bluestorm>
flux: i think that top-to-bottom evaluation may have side-effects, and that you have to admit that :p
<bluestorm>
for example
<mfp>
the good thing about let! is that you don't need let () = foo () in ... anymore
<flux>
bluestorm, yes, top-to-bottom is what one expects in ocaml, and where breaks it?
<bluestorm>
do_something_with a_value where a_value = initialize_something (); blah
<mfp>
(i.e. ';' doesn't change)
<flux>
besides didn't pa_monad actually prefer using <-- instead of <- in order to get better error messages or something? let! would fix that too.
<bluestorm>
(hm, i actually use "top to bottom" for a where-using declarative style, so there may be a confusion here :p )
<mfp>
<-- instead of <- because there's already a use for <-
<bluestorm>
(i you can do let main_function = .... wher auxiliary_function = ... and other_small_function = ...
<mfp>
that version uses where a = foo and b = bar for non-recursive, where rec a = ... and b = ... for recursive bindings
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<bluestorm>
mfp: that's fine
<bluestorm>
i would like to extend it to structure items
<bluestorm>
but i'm not terribly happy with the "just add toplevel 'where' " idea
<bluestorm>
(as let a = b where c = d where e = f would be dangerously dangling)
<bluestorm>
in a revised syntax context, where let = ... and where value = ... could some the problem
<bluestorm>
but it is both heavier an incoherent with the classical syntax
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<mfp>
bluestorm: hmm adding it for structure items.... maybe simply let foo () = ... and bar () = .... where baz x = ... ?
<mfp>
some problems with the monomorphism restriction though
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<bluestorm>
how so ? if you translate where into let, how does the restriction happen here ?
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
the problem is that
<bluestorm>
bar () = ... where baz x = ... should be parsed as bar () = (... where baz x = ...)
<mfp>
let a = ... and b = ... loses polymorphism somewhere
<mfp>
let bar () = .... where would, and bar () = ... where wouldn't
<mfp>
"and" disambiguates
<bluestorm>
ah
<bluestorm>
that's clumsy :D
<mfp>
the point of where for str_items is sharing a helper func for several such items, right? we do need something to differentiate let a = (... where ...) from top-level where
<bluestorm>
hm
<mfp>
plus how would where be scoped otherwise?
<bluestorm>
i'd use toplevel-where as a global declaration
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
you're right that local sharing makes more sense
<mfp>
what about some other keyword for str_items, say a top-level "with"
<bluestorm>
we should keep with for higher purposes, aka type-conv
<bluestorm>
mfp: actually i quite like the where let ... = ... and where value .. = solution
<bluestorm>
as it is extensible to some other think like where module and where type
<bluestorm>
(where type being moderately useful as we have implicit recursion already)
<mfp>
hmm only affects it if "with foo = ..." were placed right after a type declaration, which doesn't make much sense (we'd have let in that case)
<bluestorm>
the problem is that "where value" would hardly make sense in classical syntax
<bluestorm>
(is the "where let" overhead acceptable ? i think it is)
<mfp>
a bit heavy :/
<bluestorm>
mfp: an other keyword could be a solution but i don't think "with" is a good idea
<bluestorm>
hm
<mfp>
and where foo = ... vs. where value foo = ....?
<bluestorm>
yes
<bluestorm>
the idea being that "where value" is naturally toplevel
<mfp>
without let
<bluestorm>
ah
<bluestorm>
we could allow both "where let ..." and "where ...", saying that "let" is a reasonable default
<mfp>
this supports the 3 behaviors, in-expr where foo = ... w/o overhead, let x = .. and y = ... where .... for shared aux function, and top-level struct items with where
<mfp>
as long as you can still use where ... ;-)
<bluestorm>
the bonus is that it is extensible to "with module ..." and such in the future if it makes sense
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
i quite like that consensus : modulable let and "let" default
<mfp>
the only problem I see is the extra reserved word in the orig syntax
<bluestorm>
s/modulable let/modulable where/
<mfp>
(value)
<mfp>
ah where val
<bluestorm>
ah
<bluestorm>
great :]
<bluestorm>
are you interested in doing the implementation, or should i try something now ?
<mfp>
feel free to code the str_item extension :-)
<bluestorm>
hm btw
<bluestorm>
i think we should advertise our syntax extensions more
<bluestorm>
(say, on the mailing list)
<mfp>
everything should be advertised more
<mfp>
there's a sort of mental block there
<mfp>
posting mere ANNs (instead of thoughtful discussions about the type system) to the ML feels sort of wrong
<bluestorm>
hm :p
<mfp>
there's much more code being written than the world knows
<mfp>
the example to follow here is Haskell
<bluestorm>
haha
<bluestorm>
paste IRC notification ?
<mfp>
ppl have no problem uploading semi-trivial (but useful) things to Hackage
<bluestorm>
i'm always afraid of that idea when using the haskell paste, but being able to criticize the code of anonymous ocaml beginners in the comment sounds like fun :-'
<mfp>
haha yes IRC notification...
<mfp>
of the links submitted to reddit
<Smerdyakov>
I dislike the free-for-all populist atmosphere of the Haskell community.
<mfp>
the way dons does on #haskell all the time to gather votes :-P
<vixey>
haha
<bluestorm>
Smerdyakov: "free-for-all" ?
<Smerdyakov>
bluestorm, no quality standards
<bluestorm>
(my idiomatic "free for all" expression is a Quake gaming term, not really compatible with "populist" :p )
<Smerdyakov>
bluestorm, no organization
<bluestorm>
ok, i see
<Smerdyakov>
BTW, you guys had might as well not waste your effort, since both ML and Haskell will be obsolete soon. ;)
<mfp>
I find it irritating at times (trivial stuff being upvoted or announced as a huge leap for mankind only because it's Haskell)
<vixey>
Smerdyakov: tell me more?
<bluestorm>
vixey: Coq + pwnzor
<Smerdyakov>
vixey, I predict the future is split between languages with non-trivial type-level computation and DSLs.
<vixey>
mfp: I heard that "using call/cc is scheme is daily activity but using callCC in haskell requires a PhD"
<mfp>
but I'm envious of the high-speed devel cycle, with frequent uploads to hackage
<vixey>
daily activity/run of the mill
<bluestorm>
vixey: there is a funny paradoxical thing here
<bluestorm>
haskell users tends to be highly educated
<bluestorm>
but they're quite noisy when they create, say, a darcs-to-RSS program
<bluestorm>
that said
<mfp>
right, the simple things everybody else does
<bluestorm>
i don't want to bash haskell users, the community also has very good things and the language is of course interesting
<mfp>
but then somebody write it in Haskell and it's a huge discovery
<bluestorm>
hm
<mfp>
*writes
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<bluestorm>
i'm quite admirative of the accessible computer science vulgarization that some people in the Haskell community do
<vixey>
Smedyakov, ok but who is going to replace Prolog, that's what I want to know :)
<bluestorm>
(think sigfpe)
<vixey>
Smerdyakov* sorry
<bluestorm>
and i'm very happy the planet initiative led me to discover such things in OCaml
<mfp>
I was looking for "OCaml summer of code" but this isn't google's
<bluestorm>
pa-do could also be used to do in-place inline of binds and return
<bluestorm>
as Yoric[DT] was doing for performance reasons
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<rstites>
Is it possible to use DDD (Data Display Debugger) with the Ocaml Debugger?
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<flux>
rstites, it should be possible with ocamlopt-compiled binaries. I however haven't tried it (or gdb).
<rstites>
Thanks. I'll try that.
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<hcarty>
pa_do certainly looks nice. And pa_infix look like a useful result from the project as well
<bluestorm>
hcarty: i have mixed feelings about breaking the OCaml fixity/precedence conventions
<bluestorm>
on one hand it will be certainly be handy (for example we could use F#-compatible >> and |> piping combinators)
<bluestorm>
on the other, having a mixing of strict standard rules and lousy exceptions may become quite a nightmare
<bluestorm>
mfp: i get some delicate conflicts :p
<hcarty>
I like that it is possible, but I agree that it has the potential for horribly unreadable code
<bluestorm>
let a = b where let c = d where val foo = bar works
<bluestorm>
let a = b where c = d ;; where val foo = bar works
<bluestorm>
but let a = b where c = d where val foo = bar explodes in flames
<hcarty>
Hopefully programmer restraint will kick in at some point
<vixey>
very worrying
<bluestorm>
hcarty: hm
<bluestorm>
you shouldn't count on that imho :D
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<bluestorm>
actually they hardcoded the interdiction for users to overload the already defined OCaml infix identifiers
<hcarty>
I may have to change the syntax of the extension I've been using... Module.(...) has acted like pa_openin. With pa_do it means something different. Though I suppose pa
<hcarty>
_do could be modified to do that as well
<bluestorm>
no need to modify pa_do actually
<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
there is a lid hook
<bluestorm>
lemme check you can also hook on qualified names or uid
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<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
no there isn't
<bluestorm>
but you could probably do that with add_expr
<hcarty>
I may make a feature request
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<hcarty>
I've found Foo.(...) to be quite useful, particularly when accessing record fields to avoid a.Foo.x + b.Foo.y and similar
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<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
i think you could do that on a per-module basis with the Delimited_overloading.add_expr hook
<bluestorm>
but it would probably a better idea to enable that globally
<bluestorm>
mfp: modulo a little stream-testing hack, i got it working
<hcarty>
Yes, I think it seems messy otherwise
<hcarty>
Of course, all of this syntax manipulation can get quite messy...
* vixey
feels this way also..
<bluestorm>
hcarty: i don't think so
<bluestorm>
i'm quite confident actually that pa_do could become an efficient reponse to the "no + overloading" complains
<bluestorm>
wich are a quite major part of the complains i hear about OCaml actually
<hcarty>
bluestorm: I certainly agree
<bluestorm>
(people tends to wrap that into higher purposes such as "no overloading" or "no subtyping of the base types" or what not, but what they really want is only a + barely working on floats , int32 and bigints)
<bluestorm>
you should make your proposal about the implicit opening
<hcarty>
I'm writing up a feature request for the forge tracker now
<flux>
implicit opening?
<hcarty>
flux: Module.(expr) would act like pa_openin was used in (expr), in addition to the rest of the pa_do translation
* rwmjones
downloads every fedora kernel RPM ever made ...
<mfp>
bluestorm: nope, will register if needed
<rwmjones>
bluestorm, so where let ... and ... does work?
<bluestorm>
yes
<gildor>
bluestorm: if you want to create a project, do it quickly, i am about to leave for vacation for 2 weeks -- after that this will be other forge admin that can allow creation of the project
<bluestorm>
you can use "where" instead of "where let"
<bluestorm>
gildor: ok
<rwmjones>
ah that's better then
<bluestorm>
let's find where the project creation page is
<gildor>
i think i go to bed in 1 or 2 hours (leaving early tomorrow morning)
<gildor>
go to "My Page"
<bluestorm>
yeah, found it
<gildor>
"Enregistrer un projet"
<mfp>
infamous quoting techniques -> I guess I deserve it. All in all, it's a good thing you sent the ANN. I'd just have said that the revised syntax/Haskell's where can be elegant at times, that it's a pity it's not available in the original one, and where the extension can be dled from.
<rwmjones>
bluestorm, you need to s/Red Hat/.../ in that file actually
<bluestorm>
mfp: isn't there a link at the end ?
<mfp>
bluestorm: what I mean is that if I had posted the ANN I'd have given much less info than you did
<mfp>
so your post is better than what I would have written
<bluestorm>
« Please describe your Registration Purpose in a more comprehensive manner »
<bluestorm>
that was is funny
<bluestorm>
s/was/one/
<bluestorm>
gildor: is there a lower size limit ? 300 words did not sound that bad
<bluestorm>
(ok, i admit i have absolutely no idea of what should be written here, i mostly pasted the meaningful part of the mailing-list annoucement)
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<gildor>
bluestorm: that is only to explain why it is interesting to be hosted on the forge
<gildor>
people wrote thing like "to use svn"
<gildor>
i don't think there is a lower size limit
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<bluestorm>
hm
<bluestorm>
strange
<bluestorm>
i removed the pasted part
<bluestorm>
and now it is much shorter and works
<bluestorm>
anyway, gildor , project sumbitted
<gildor>
and project approved
<gildor>
the scm will be setup in the next cron job
<bluestorm>
rwmjones: i also uploaded (same URL) an archive with a LICENSE file
<mbishop>
Man, this scheme interpreter in OCaml is impressively full features heh
<bluestorm>
how does it goes performance-wise ?
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<Anarchos>
hello everybody
<mbishop>
not sure
<bluestorm>
mfp: now that the project is created, you should try to get an account, so that you can benefit from requests, complains, bugs and angry users too
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<mfp>
bluestorm: OK, registered as mfp. Do you need me to request to join the project or can you do it directly?
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<bluestorm>
no idea
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<mfp>
I'm requesting it through the sys then, you should receive an email with approve/deny links shortly
<bluestorm>
done
<bluestorm>
i uploaded the two files
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<rwmjones>
thanks
<Anarchos>
i am implementing a jvm in ocaml :) interesting exercise
<hcarty>
Anarchos: Then, using ocaml-java, you can have a jvm running ocaml running a jvm...
<Anarchos>
yes :)
<Anarchos>
i do it because i ported ocaml to beos, but there is still no java !
<bluestorm>
my hat to the one allowing ocaml to run a jvm running ocaml
<Anarchos>
i don't guarantee performance though
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<mbishop>
a JVM in OCaml? neat
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<jeddhaberstro>
Does the books "Developing Applications With Objective Caml" actually teach functional programming, or does it just teach the syntax of OCaml, and it's standard library?
<bluestorm>
jeddhaberstro: it does, to some extent
<bluestorm>
i think it's a good introduction if you're new to functional programming
<jeddhaberstro>
k
<jeddhaberstro>
Do you know of a better to place to learn functional programming?
<jeddhaberstro>
(preferably using OCaml or some Lisp variant language to teach it)
<bluestorm>
i think OCaml is the best language out there to learn (typed) functional programming from the imperative land
<bluestorm>
and this book is a good introduction to the language
<bluestorm>
both are good documents : what you will need is time and good questions
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<jeddhaberstro>
I think I'll take my chances with the first one :)
<bluestorm>
rwmjones: your reaction speed is impressive, but i a bit ashamed of the little testing the extension has received yet
<bluestorm>
i mean, there is an wanna-be-exhaustive test battery in the archive, but that's not "real code"
<bluestorm>
that said, i don't except any bug (the implementation is not very complex), but you never know
<bluestorm>
i'm currently writing something that will use it, so that would make some real code
<Asmadeus>
Well, I think most can live pretty well without it so I won't even bother trying it. That being said, it's true that it sometimes feel more natural and can be "nice", but... Well, I'm not being negative, but I don't know if there will be that many users
<Asmadeus>
Only time will tell :)
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<bluestorm>
Asmadeus: i'll use it, and that's a very good starting investement in "user hapiness feedback"
<bluestorm>
(do you sometimes read Haskell ? it's after a little haskell meal that the urge for "where" is the strongest)
<Asmadeus>
Yeah, that's what I was too lazy to write afterall :P One's mostly coding for themselves
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<jeddhaberstro>
where can the accompanying source-code to the exercises and example applications for the book be found?
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<bluestorm>
jeddhaberstro: probably in your head :p
<jeddhaberstro>
:P
<bluestorm>
( no kidding, PDF are a pain in the ass, but writing the code source read in the lecture yourself is probably one of the best training to get used to the syntax quickly )
<jeddhaberstro>
oh, i'll type it all out, i just wanted to look at some of the programs now and read through it
<bluestorm>
btw, if you want to use the interactive toplevel (wich imho is really great for beginners), you should install a line-editing tool such as ledit or rlwrap
<bluestorm>
hm
<jeddhaberstro>
I'm using textmate as my editor, then just copy and pasting into the toplevel for now
<bluestorm>
hm
<jeddhaberstro>
which works well enough for now
<bluestorm>
hostile operating system spotted :-'
<jeddhaberstro>
:P
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<jeddhaberstro>
will be back in a few
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<mbishop>
Why does OCamlForge have a code snippets page with a bunch of other languages, but not OCaml?
<mbishop>
I thought the point was like, putting OCaml code snippets (as well as other language snippets) but it seems to be just for other languages
<bluestorm>
mbishop: OCamlForge is a recent initiative, so everything is not as polished at it could
<bluestorm>
this is just the generic Forge software, wich provides this functionality
<bluestorm>
and you must have noticed that there is _no_ code snippet in any language posted right now
<mbishop>
yeah
<mbishop>
I wanted to post some ocaml snippets :(
<bluestorm>
let's use "Other Languages" for now
<bluestorm>
you're right that the Forge could be tailored for the more specific use of the OCaml community
<bluestorm>
but it seems gildor just left for holydays, so we should not except anything right now