flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<mxc> who *janest*
<mxc> oops
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<vixey> I want to be employed to hack ocaml
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<Smerdyakov> vixey, best option is Jane Street, IMO.
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<vixey> I would love that
<vixey> Wouldn't I have to move location though?
<Smerdyakov> What's your current location?
<vixey> scotland
<vixey> I don't think there's any jane st. here
<Smerdyakov> Correct. Closest is London.
<Smerdyakov> But at least there would be no citizenship problems for you to work there.
<vixey> yeah I guess so
<Smerdyakov> Jane Street can generally only get PhDs from outside the USA to work at the New York office, I think. I'm not sure what the UK situation is.
<vixey> oh I don't have a PhD
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<Smerdyakov> Right, but it's not a problem if you work in a country where you have full rights to work already.
<Smerdyakov> BTW, you might also want to reconsider the idea that you want to be employed, instead of starting your own business.
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<jynxzero> Does anyone know the requirements for Janest, do you need commercial O'Caml experience?
<jynxzero> I've been using it for years in my hobby coding, but don't have anything CV worthy.
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<rwmjones> jynxzero, based in the UK? we (Red Hat) may have an intern position available, but it requires very specific ocaml skills
<jynxzero> Yeh, I'm in Bristol.
<jynxzero> I'd be interested in details if there are more, is it on the Redhat website?
<vixey> rwmjones: What do you mean specific?
<rwmjones> no I'm still writing a spec & getting it signed off up & down the hierarchy
<rwmjones> the skills required will be in camlp4
<rwmjones> but it's a research project for an intern or student
<Smerdyakov> jynxzero, Jane St. hires awesome people who fit in with something that needs doing. There are no more specific requirements than that.
<jynxzero> Ah, shame. I have fairly strong camlp4 skills but I guess it'd be hard to live like a student again, I've got too comfy.
<jynxzero> Smerdyakov: Thanks, maybe I'll chuck a CV their way and see if I'm sufficiently awesome.
<Smerdyakov> jynxzero, if you just think about it, it would be absurd to require "commercial OCaml experience." Almost everyone in that category works at Jane Street.
<jynxzero> I see a reasonably number of O'Caml jobs in other countries, but yeh... I didn't think it was likely they would, I was just checking really.
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<Smerdyakov> You might think you see a reasonable number, but the total number of OCaml hackers in the commercial world is at least half at Jane Street, I think. ;)
<jynxzero> Ah, OK I didn't realise it was stacked quite that far towards them. :)
<Smerdyakov> It's getting close to 30 people at Jane Street who write OCaml code regularly.
<vixey> and this is all geared toward writing programs that trade ?
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<Smerdyakov> It's a little more complicated than that, but that's a rough picture.
<Smerdyakov> You can read the article about Jane St. in the latest Journal of Functional Programming for more information.
<vixey> I don't think I could start a buisness
<vixey> I've written software before that publishers were interested in but I don't think I could deal with that end myself, I have no idea what's involved
<Smerdyakov> "Publishers"? How 20th century.
<vixey> lol
<Smerdyakov> You should at least be informed before reading a decision, which means reading this: http://www.paulgraham.com/hiring.html
<vixey> I don't know what the right word is
<Smerdyakov> I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of the wrong model if you would choose the word "publisher" for anyone involved in your business plan.
<Smerdyakov> "Wrong" meaning "bad idea for you to work that way."
<vixey> oh well I was just referring to what happened in the past
<vixey> I don't really have any idea about the future
<Smerdyakov> Just be sure to read that essay.
<Smerdyakov> Everyone studying anything technical should read it.
<jynxzero> He doesn't want to start a business, so we can't criticise his business plan :)
<Smerdyakov> jynxzero, I think we're disagreeing on valid uses of subjunctive language.
<Smerdyakov> And most people are wrong when they say that they don't want to start companies.
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<jynxzero> lol, I see :)
<RobertFischer> Smerdyakov: They amount "I think this will..." and "They should be able tos..." in that essay really undermine the points he's trying to make. If you look at what he's really saying, he's saying that in the way *he* thinks reality should work, hiring should be obsolete.
<RobertFischer> Which I'm more than willing to grant. :)
<Smerdyakov> You think that isn't the way things really work today for smart people?
* Smerdyakov leaves.
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<vixey> "Grad school makes a good launch pad for startups, because you're collected together with a lot of smart people"
<vixey> no not really
<RobertFischer> And I think he'd undermining the importance of business sense, probably because it comes naturally to him.
<vixey> I think there's 1% smart people
<vixey> the rest just want to get an A on the final exam
<Yoric[DT]> The ones I know just want a C on the final exam...
<bluestorm> yeah, getting an A when a C is enough to pass is not that smart :-'
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<RobertFischer> bluestorm: That was my undergraduate theory, and I paid for it when I went back to grad school. :P
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<Tankado> Hello, i am tring to do my first work in ml so please bare with me, can anyone have alook at this and tell me what is wrong : http://rafb.net/p/BjmeFd96.html
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<rwmjones> Tankado, that's actually ML, not ocaml ...
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<vixey> SML
<Tankado> I am not so familiar with the diffrences
<vixey> Tankado: the problem is you have written replace_with_binary(f,g,tail)
<vixey> now tail is a list of 'a n_tree
<vixey> but the third parameter to replace_with_binary should be a single 'a n_tree
<vixey> You'll probably want to use map here to do this
<Tankado> ahh ok got the problem now
<Tankado> thanks vixey
<Tankado> vixey : would you mind if i pm you about something ?
<vixey> if you like
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<Tankado> vixey : cant i solve it by adding another pattern match for (f,g,list)
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<vixey> no you could not do that because it would not typecheck
<vixey> but you could define a new function which does the replace on a list of trees
<vixey> which is similar to what you are suggesting, just with one difference
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<Tankado> what that syntac to use 2 recursive functions that use each other one after another? (i need to add an "and" something)
<Tankado> so i wont get unbounded var
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<jlouis> Tankado, right. Check the manual for the BNF grammar and syntax.
<vixey> one of the few languages which has a really good comprehensive manual
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<Tankado> yeah seems like it, i will have a look
<Tankado> i dunno why "and" doesnt work thought and i still get unbounded var it should be val rec name1=... and val rec name2=...
<Tankado> i will try to put them both in a let structure
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<Axioplase> Tankado: val rec ?
<Tankado> recursive?
<Axioplase> let rec foo = ... and bar = ...
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<Tankado> i am using SML so i guess its diffrent then Ocaml
<vixey> very
<Axioplase> unless OCaml has changed a lot since I last used it, I don't remember that one uses val to declare anything like that
<vixey> actually not that different :/
<Axioplase> Oh. My knowledge of SML is limited to the Tiger Book and Compiling with Continuations (both by A.Appel). And I keep thinking "dude, I prefer OCaml's syntax" :D
<Axioplase> (eventhough I don't like OCaml's syntax that much actually)
<vixey> Axioplase: A great book!
<Axioplase> Paradoxically, I think that C/C is a better compilation book than the Tiger
<Axioplase> Though the formalism (both theoretical and "graphical", ie: fonts and symbols) isn't very reader friendly
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<FoolOfSoul> Tankado, SML perfomes better than Ocaml, the weakness of Ocaml is the OO-nature
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<rwmjones> heh, nonsense is alive & well I see
<jlouis> FoolOfSoul, that is a moot argument since Standard ML usually refers to a specification and Ocaml refers both to a specific implementation and a "specification" at the same time
<jlouis> Some of the SML implementations are quite miserable when it comes to evaluation speed
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<psnively> Testing...
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<jeddhaberstro> How would one implement List.filter without recursion?
<asmanur> jeddhaberstro: with List.fold_left ?
<jeddhaberstro> not with List.fold_right?
<flux> jeddhaberstro, with a while-loop and mutation, but why bother..
<flux> I suppose with List.reverse and List.fold_left; List.fold_right isn't tail recursive, is it?
<blue_prawn> with a ref list initialised with ref [] as accumulator, and for i=0 to pred List.length li do let this = List.nth li i if predicate this then acc := this :: !acc done;
<flux> that would be a horribly inefficient implementation, however
<flux> but yes, in theory, that way
<jeddhaberstro> Well, I'm reading some lecture slides from a college I found online, and they're purposely ignoring all non-functional features of Ocaml, and in the "activity" from the course, it says to implement filter without recursion optionally using fold_right, map and zip
<blue_prawn> instead of List.nth, use a second ref list with the tail at each iteration
<flux> jeddhaberstro, List.fold_right is a better fit for the problem
<jeddhaberstro> so, I don't think using any mutable variable or loops is what the teacher wanted his students to do.
<flux> stated that way
<jeddhaberstro> But, I don't know how to use it well enough yet
<flux> hmm..
<jeddhaberstro> the best I could come up with was... let filter2 f xx = List.fold_right (fun x -> if f x then x) xx [];;
<jeddhaberstro> but that doesn't compile either
<flux> right
<blue_prawn> it's stupid to say "without recursion" if it's allowed to use a fold function which does recursion
<flux> why doesn't it?
<jeddhaberstro> This expression has type unit but is here used with type 'a -> 'a
<flux> blue_prawn, perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn't -)
<jeddhaberstro> referring to the if statement
<flux> :-) even
<flux> jeddhaberstro, do you know why it says that?
<jeddhaberstro> not really...
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<flux> first of all, List.fold_right's first argument is a function that accepts two arguments, not one
<jeddhaberstro> i kinda do, but not enough to fix it
<flux> second, if must return the same type in both of its branches
<jeddhaberstro> yes, i knew i needed an else statement
<jeddhaberstro> but I didn't know what to return in the else clause
<flux> I suppose this is way too much help, but here it goes: instead of trying to return single elements in the function you pass to fold, return the whole resulting list
<flux> if you don't know what List.fold_right does, look up the documentation and perhaps the implementation
<flux> and perhaps play around with it
<jeddhaberstro> hmm
<flux> another perhaps too helpful hint: how do you produce a list that is a version of another list prepended with an element..
<Jedai> blue_prawn: if you use a fold, you don't use explicit recursion ("explicit" being the key term here)
<jeddhaberstro> new :: oldList
<Jedai> In Haskell : filter p = foldr (\x xs -> if p x then x:xs else xs) []
<flux> spoiler ;)
<Jedai> flux: It's in Haskell though... ^^
<jeddhaberstro> heh
<flux> atleast there's one trivial difference
<flux> (beyond syntax)
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: So your translation of that ?
<jeddhaberstro> hang on, working on it :)
<Jedai> flux: The arg order you mean ?
<blue_prawn> let filter p li = List.fold_right (fun this acc -> if p this then this::acc else acc) li [] ;;
<jeddhaberstro> i think I'm closer, but still not right
<jeddhaberstro> let filter2 f xx = List.fold_right (fun f x -> match x with h::t -> if f h then x else t) xx [];;
<flux> hmm..
<flux> why do you think that doesn't work?
<flux> oh, right, blue_prawn gave the whole solution already
<jeddhaberstro> yeah , there it is :p
<jeddhaberstro> thanks guys
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: You should really try to understand why your solution doesn't work though
<blue_prawn> but maybe we should prefer a fold_left and reverse the result, because the manual says that fold_left is tail recursive while the right is not
<jeddhaberstro> i am truing
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: understanding the folds is really important in my opinion
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<jeddhaberstro> is the second argument in the function you need to pass to fold_right always have to be a list?
<jeddhaberstro> hmm, no
<Jedai> blue_prawn: You're right as far as OCaml is concerned (though I thing the fold_right solution should be a bit faster when it works), but in Haskell the foldr solution is much better..
<Jedai> blue_prawn: It works on infinite list, won't stack overflow and can be fused away
<blue_prawn> the fold_right version of the ExtLib is tail recursive
<jeddhaberstro> i just don't understand why acc is actually accumulated
<blue_prawn> this::acc pushes an element on acc
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: try to work on a small example, doing the reduction by hand
<jeddhaberstro> kk
<Jedai> blue_prawn: This is the wrong way to look at it
<blue_prawn> Jedai: to look at what ?
<Jedai> blue_prawn: acc doesn't change contrary to what would happen if you "pushed" an element on a list in an imperative language, it's just that the next call to the function will be done with a longer list
<blue_prawn> Jedai: I was using the functional version of the word push, which means give a longer list to the next call :-)
<Jedai> blue_prawn: Yeah right ^^
<blue_prawn> Jedai: open Functional_vocabulary
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: http://cale.yi.org/index.php/Fold_Diagrams to get a visual of fold_right
<jeddhaberstro> much appreciated :)
<Jedai> jeddhaberstro: (keep in mind that ":" in Haskell is "::" in OCaml and foldr is fold_right)
<jeddhaberstro> i was able to figure that out :)
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<blue_prawn> I've started to make a very minimal widget set draft to build GUIs in a functional way
<blue_prawn> here is how it looks like to produce something close to xcalc:
<blue_prawn> what do you think about this interface ?
<RobertFischer> blue_prawn: Looks good to me.
<blue_prawn> I am wondering what would be the best solution when a piece of the interface have to be changed
<blue_prawn> here the entire representation is regiven with With_intf and calc
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<palomer> how can I tell if a process is finished when I open something with open_process_full ?
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<flux> I _think_ by reading hteir output and finding out that it has EOFed
<flux> however without too much trouble you can use your own meachism in place of open_process_full altogether, but it does require some unix programming knowledge
<palomer> but... it also EOFs if there's no output left
<palomer> no?
<flux> yes, it might have just closed its output
<flux> but it's unlikely to do that unless it has terminated
<flux> but correct, it's not a 100% guarantee
<palomer> so what does it do if there's nothing to output?
<palomer> it blocks?
<flux> yes
<palomer> input_line will block?
<flux> that's the problem with the in_channel etc interfaces, they block and non-blocking them can be a bit complex
<flux> yes
<palomer> maybe I'm using the wrong function
<flux> until the process exits
<flux> you could use another thread to do the blocking though
<flux> what are you actually doing?
<palomer> I wrote an ide
<palomer> IDE
<palomer> and now I want to compile and put the output in a new window
<flux> I suppose you could do all the process manipulation in a sperate thread to avoid blocking the main user interface
<palomer> there's also a do not block function in Unix
* palomer goes to find the name
<flux> or you could do all that manually, with fork, pipe/socket and dup2
<palomer> val set_nonblock : file_descr -> unit
<flux> I would expect the standard io routines not work well with channels that are in non-blocking mode
<palomer> since I'm using lablgtk
<palomer> I use Glib.timeout.add
<palomer> and I just poll
<palomer> let _ = set_nonblock (descr_of_out_channel some_out_channel) <--this would take my out_channel and make it non_blocking, right?
<palomer> for input_line
<palomer> and Unix.select is pretty useless for my purposes, right?
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<flux> I think if you use nonblocking, you must give in using Pervasives.* and ouy must use Unix.read/select/etc
<flux> s/give in/give up/
<palomer> yeah, doesn't work with input_line
<palomer> why would I use select?
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* palomer doesn't really get select
<flux> well
<flux> perhaps you would instead register it with glib
<flux> because it provides the select for you
<flux> so: it issues a callback when you are able to read from a file descriptor and retrieve atleast one byte from it (that is: you won't block)
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<flux> and when you _do_ read from it, you want to use Unix.read, not input_line
<flux> because due to buffering issues it will not work properly.
<flux> (it might even appear to work correctly, but it won't)
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<palomer> Wait until some input/output operations become possible on some channels. The three list arguments are, respectively, a set of descriptors to check for reading (first argument), for writing (second argument), or for exceptional conditions (third argument). The fourth argument is the maximal timeout, in seconds; a negative fourth argument means no timeout (unbounded wait). The result is composed of three sets of descriptors: those
<palomer> ready for reading (first component), ready for writing (second component), and over which an exceptional condition is pending (third component).
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<flux> what's unclear about that?
<palomer> you said it reads a character
<palomer> and issues a callback
<flux> _atleast_
<flux> so: more than nothing is readable
<palomer> where's the callback?
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<flux> wasn't Glib a callback library?
<flux> it's been a lot since I've used it
<flux> didn't une make calls to Glib and say "call this function when fd 42 is readable"
<flux> Glib.Io.add_watch [`IN] (fun f -> ..) (Glib.Io.channel_of_descr foo) etc
<palomer> cool!
<flux> (watching glib.mli)
<palomer> hrmph, can't get the type of condition
* palomer kicks firefox and inria
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<flux> well, happy hacking, I'll go doze off
<palomer> wait!
<palomer> oh, nevermind
<flux> hm?
<palomer> what's `IN?
<flux> type condition = [ `ERR | `HUP | `IN | `NVAL | `OUT | `PRI]
<flux> as in: descriptor can be read from (it gives input)
<flux> versus out: descriptor can be written into (it is given output)
<palomer> gotcha!
<palomer> thx a bunch!
<flux> good night
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<palomer> night!
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<palomer> flux, did you go to bed yet:P?
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