<Associat0r>
guys are there ocaml IDE's that figure out the file compilation order by themeselves?
<jeddhaberstro>
what does DSL stand for by the way?
<mbishop>
Domain Specific Language
<jeddhaberstro>
ah
<jeddhaberstro>
thanks
<Associat0r>
can anyone tell me the exact reason why an F# IDE can't figure out the order of compilation itself like seen here http://lorgonblog.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!701679AD17B6D310!347.entry while Visual Haskell for example could?
<Associat0r>
I guess it applies to ocaml too
<bluestorm>
Associat0r:
<bluestorm>
try ocamldepend
<bluestorm>
or ocamlbuild
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<jeddhaberstro>
what's the best to compile ocaml source code? Is there something like SCons?
<bluestorm>
jeddhaberstro: if you have simple source, the usual tools are more than enough
<bluestorm>
that is ocaml, ocamlc, ocamlopt
<jeddhaberstro>
yeah
<bluestorm>
if you want something more sophisticated you have ocamlfind
<bluestorm>
and even more sophisticated, ocamlbuild
<bluestorm>
wich is probably the more scons-like of all
<bluestorm>
trying simple things first is probably a better idea, still : spending some time to get used to a powerful build system to compile two miserable files of code does not make sense
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<Tankado>
If i have a rational number represented as int*int and now i want to convert the value to some real so pass to another function can i do something like Int.toReal(rat) ?
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<Tankado>
and is "@" an append of list?
<flux>
you can create a module Int with function toReal if that was your question
<flux>
and yes
<Tankado>
flux : i am not realy familiar with modules
<Tankado>
i just have Rat(x,y) and i want to convert this to a number (real)
<flux>
tankado, write file int.ml which has the function
<flux>
it will create module Int
<flux>
simple compiling: ocamlc -o result int.ml yourothercode.ml
<Tankado>
but how the function will go
<flux>
well, what should it do?
<Tankado>
make a representation of rat number consist of 2 numbers into one number i can pass to a function
<flux>
I was thinking more in the terms of a low-level algorithm
<Tankado>
i think you confusing my request for something much more complicated or i just dont understand what you saying
<Tankado>
will a function like this fn(rat) => (Rat(x,y)) => x/y work?
<Tankado>
fn(Rat(x,y))=>x/y
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<Tankado>
anyone know how i can convert from int to real?
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<hml>
anyone konw where to get a used physical print of ocaml for scientists?
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<GustNG>
Fat chance. Don't be cheap. >:c
<hml>
ha; i'm a student, lol
<Asmadeus>
Ask your school's library to get one; they usually can if there are enough people requesting (say, two or three; you can have friends asking even if they don't really want to read it :P)
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<Proteus_>
I'm in the same situation as hml - is ocaml for scientists worth the effort?
<Proteus_>
I mean, I have $0
<Proteus_>
I'm not sure what that converts to in pounds
<vixey>
Proteus_: if you want to learn ocaml you can certainly do it by reading texts online
<Proteus_>
maybe jon will be in a giving mood and give me a pdf, or something.
<Asmadeus>
Well, he's making a living out of such things, I don't know if that will happen :)
<GustNG>
That's bad business.
<Proteus_>
yeah, I know
<Asmadeus>
But I'm somewhat wondering though, I think it's supposed to be a bit more than "learning ocaml", sadly haven't read it though :(
<GustNG>
For programmers who need cash though, I can say Flash web games.
<Proteus_>
i'm not sure it's bad business to get one more ocaml programmer out there, espeicially one who can't possibly afford his book
<Proteus_>
haha
<Asmadeus>
If you're looking to learn ocaml, there are other contents online :)
<GustNG>
Proteus_: But making an exception is impolite to hundreds of other people who don't want to buy it because of money.
<jynxzero>
There's at least one free book: "Developing applications with Objective Caml
<jynxzero>
"
<Proteus_>
there's also the pre-publish pdf of the cambridge book
<Proteus_>
which is quite nice
<hml>
wait ... ocaml for scientists, is a physical book, not a pdf?
<hml>
i just placed an order; and thought i'd get a physical book and a pdf
<hml>
but ... besides that world pay site saying that they charged my credit card, i have gotten nothing so far; neither a pdf link nor a confirmation of a shipment
<vixey>
Proteus_: Why do you want to learn ocaml though?
<Proteus_>
many reasons. I've been toying with it for quite a while and find it to be powerful, elegant, and robust
<vixey>
what will you program with it ?
<hml>
the one thing that tempts me about ocaml
<hml>
is it's speed advanteage ove rhaskell
<Proteus_>
bioinformatics apps, I'm working on a ogre3d-based game engine and game and ocaml seems like a good language for procedurally generating content
<hml>
why can't those ghc guys make haskell faster?
<Proteus_>
purity
<hml>
purity should make things faster since the compikler can do more optimixaiont
<hml>
like how coding in c beats assembly on average (since hand assembly gets tiring after a while), the ghc compiler should be beating these impure languages
<Proteus_>
the difference between c and asm is relatively insignificant
<Proteus_>
and has no relation to pure vs. impure languages
<hml>
_purity shoudl abe a compiler writers' dream
<Proteus_>
I don't follow you
<mfp>
Proteus_: more than purity, I'd point at laziness and the use of combinators everywhere
<GustNG>
Tiny scope.
<mfp>
ah and [Char] ;-)
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<hml>
ls
<Proteus_>
mfp, the GHC programmers are hardly stupid. If performance were such a low hanging fruit then they'd do it. But Haskell isn't the drag racer of languages, and it isn't low hanging fruit, so perhaps you should consider that you're missing something vital and do some research. ;-)
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<mfp>
GHC is comparatively much more advanced than the semi-naïve ocamlopt, but Haskell is much more demanding to being with
<vixey>
#haskell
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<mfp>
Proteus_: when did I imply so?
* vixey
thinks Proteus meant to direct that at hml
<Proteus_>
oh merde, my apologies
<Proteus_>
I'm very tired
<hml>
i'd love to have ocaml with haskell syntax
<hml>
ocaml code somehow just looks so ugly
<hml>
sorry; not meant to troll
<mfp>
np, maybe I'm missing something vital, my OCaml code is still faster than my Haskell :P
<mfp>
hml: have you seen the pa_where extension?
<hml>
isn't ocaml supposed to be faster than haskell?
<mfp>
usually, yes
<Proteus_>
ocaml is a pragmatic language, haskell is rather idealistic.
<mfp>
GHC can beat it at some micro-benchmarks given enough manpower
<vixey>
Proteus_: They are both pragmatic
<Proteus_>
vixey, really? oh. Perhaps I'm just ignorant of some details of Haskell then.
<Proteus_>
it was my impression
<mfp>
vixey: if Haskell is pragmatic, what's an "idealistic" language then, brainfuck? :)
<hml>
what's haskel pragmatic for, other than writing resea4rch pape4rs? :-)
<mfp>
at any rate, things like the ability to do both imperative and functional code or the printf integrated in the type system make OCaml more pragmatic IMO
<vixey>
well you can do both these things in haskell
<vixey>
mfp: coq maybe
<mfp>
heh
<Proteus_>
I'm writing a game/game engine/engine toolset and I need to generate a lot of geometry, code, and whatnots. I plan to have bits of ocaml code in the running game. I really can't see haskell being used in this way.
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<vixey>
Proteus_: You probably just have more experience with ocaml then
<Proteus_>
vixey, would you recommend haskell for real time applications?
<vixey>
no I wouldn't recommend anything
<mfp>
vixey: similar in spirit to the classical functional unparsing, no?
<Proteus_>
vixey, but you can see haskell being used in this way?
<mfp>
str "The value of " ^^ fmt (T:=T) pr_str ^^ str " is " ^^ fmt (T:=T) (B:=A) pr_int
<Proteus_>
sucessfully
<mfp>
"The value of %s is %d"
<mfp>
it's not about whether the type-safe printf is doable
<mfp>
but rather the choice to integrate format strings in OCaml's type sys which makes it a pragmatic
<mfp>
because it's ad-hoc, and not really needed because there's also functional unparsing
<mfp>
but it's convenient
<mfp>
which makes it a pragmatic design choice
<Proteus_>
incidentally, when calling functions to<->from C, what sort of performance penalty does one incur?
<mfp>
Proteus_: if the C function is declared as "noalloc", essentially none
<Proteus_>
nice
<mfp>
just the overhead of placing the params on the stack (x86) or moving to the right regs on x86_64
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<mfp>
if the C function allocates, either directly or indirectly (by calling an ocaml callback or raising an exception), there's some overhead
<mfp>
I counted some 20 instructions or so IIRC, dunno about the cycles
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<mfp>
ah and a branch misprediction
<hml>
/quit
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<Proteus_>
branch misprediction?
<mfp>
because there's an indirect jump in caml_c_call
<Proteus_>
ah
<vixey>
doesn't ocaml get compiled into native code?
<Proteus_>
yes
<mfp>
caml_c_call saves some context for exception management & GC and does an indirect jump
<vixey>
so could it not be possible that calling a C function would just be unboxing some parameters and doing exactly what C does, then re-boxing them?
<mfp>
then in the C function, you have to register extra roots (CAMLparamN, etc.)
<mfp>
vixey: that's what happens when the external is declared as "noalloc"
<mfp>
minus the unboxing, because the C func receives and returns value types
<mfp>
Proteus_: the figure I gave before was incorrect (must have been what I measured _including_ some root registration with CAMLparamN/CAMLlocalN)
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<mfp>
you can often avoid allocation in the C func
<mfp>
e.g., when you have exceptions
<Proteus_>
is all this documented somewhere? all I've found is the little chapter in the manual.
<mfp>
instead of doing the equiv of let foo a b = if bad_args a b then invalid_arg "f: bad a, b"; ... in C and external foo : a -> b -> c = "mylib_foo",
<Asmadeus>
What's documented is how to use it, to see that he just looked at the asm code dumped by ocamlopt
<Asmadeus>
Probably :P
<mfp>
external foo_unsafe : a -> b -> c = "mulib_foo" "noalloc" and let foo a b = if bad_args a b then invalid_arg "f: bad a, b"; foo_unsafe a b
<mfp>
yeah, this I learned by reading the .s
<rwmjones>
anyone here using coq? if so, what is /usr/bin/parser used for?
<mfp>
both the code generated by ocamlopt, and ocaml/asmrun/{i386,amd64}.S in the compiler's sources
<Proteus_>
mfp, thanks for the info.
<mfp>
np
<Proteus_>
I may need to make somewhat extensive use of the FFI
<mfp>
ah there's another thing
<mfp>
you can use unboxed floats in externals too
<mfp>
with the "float" predicate
<mfp>
there was a message on caml-list where xleroy explained this (I haven't used it myself)
<mfp>
IIRC, by doing external foo : float -> float -> float = "foo" "noalloc" "float", you could use some double foo(double a, double b){ ... }
<mfp>
instead of passing/returning a float boxed in a value
<mfp>
it's actually used like this: pervasives.ml:external exp : float -> float = "caml_exp_float" "exp" "float"
<mfp>
so caml_exp_float must be the version with boxed floats (for bytecode and native when needed), and exp the unboxed one
<Proteus_>
when would you need it boxed in native?
<mfp>
hmmm for instance if it's a tail call in a function returning a float that hasn't been inlined?
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<mfp>
it might use the unboxed one if it's got the floats in a register and box after the call, dunno
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<mfp>
duh
<mfp>
there's one situation where it will use the boxed one:
<mfp>
let apply f x = f x .... apply sqrt 10.
<Proteus_>
on the other hand, if I'm calling a lot of big functions on one side or the the other, these little opimisations wouldn't really matter much, correct?
<mfp>
right
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<Proteus_>
still potentially useful though - thanks mfp.
<Proteus_>
I'm headed to bed. Good night to all.
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<hcarty>
mfp: Thanks for mentioning the "noalloc" and "float" FFI tags. I may not ever use them, but it's nice to know they are there...
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<tvn1981a>
so if I want to guarantee my code will never reach this line, can I use "assert false;" ? the compiler complains this statement never returns (or have unsound type) ? is there a better "assert" way ?
<Asmadeus>
assert false throws an exception
<Asmadeus>
I think it shows on which line, just like a match failure, but I'm not certain
<Asmadeus>
You might want to use failwith if you want to check which one it is faster
<tvn1981a>
I just want it to crash (or stop) if it ever reaches that line
<tvn1981a>
assert (1=0) works fine but it looks ugly
<flux>
(assert false : unit)?
<flux>
or perhaps I don't see what the rest of the code looks like
<Asmadeus>
No, it's not unit
<mfp>
tvn1981a: failwith "this should never be reached because ...."
<Asmadeus>
Exceptions have a weird type, it can be anything in such cases
<Asmadeus>
And "assert false" works, since 1=0 evaluate as false :)
<jlouis>
exceptions are pretty cheap in ocaml
<jlouis>
(when you are not requesting stack traces, that is)
<Asmadeus>
It's just that you might use aggressive catch (try ... with _ -> ...) which would catch the assert failure
<vixey>
if you don't want an expcetion, let rec impossible () = impossible ();;
<vixey>
then you can write
<vixey>
impossible ()
<vixey>
somewhere
<flux>
and get stuck? great :)
<vixey>
no you don't get stuck (at least we hope), since getting to that branch is impossible
<Asmadeus>
And it'll crash stack overflow soon enough
<vixey>
oh really?
<vixey>
I don't thin that will ever crash
<Asmadeus>
It will :P
<vixey>
I'm running it now and it's not crashed yet
<Asmadeus>
Oh yeah
<Asmadeus>
It's tailrecursive
<Asmadeus>
Have it do 1 + impossible ()
<Asmadeus>
And then it will
<flux>
well, it would raise an exception, eventually ;)
<Asmadeus>
I don't think that's an exception
<flux>
really? it may crash, at times, such as with natively compiled binaries, but the general principle should be that it throws?
<Asmadeus>
Hum, don't know
<flux>
hmm
<Asmadeus>
Gotta try.. give me a sec :P
<flux>
no exception in toplevel
<flux>
Fatal error: exception Stack_overflow
<flux>
on a standalone bytecode binary
<flux>
also with native binary
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<Asmadeus>
Well, it's an exception in native
<Asmadeus>
tried "try impossible () with _ -> print_endline "thing"; 1" and it showed "thing"
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<Asmadeus>
Well, that's great, although I'd have sworn that would crash :P
<flux>
I think it still can at unfortunate moments
<flux>
although bytecode binaries should always handle that
<flux>
I suppose for example when you call c code exactly when you run out of stack?
<flux>
unless it handles it with signal handlers somehow
<Asmadeus>
Heh, that's not something I'd be able to try
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<Asmadeus>
Well, in fact probably can. You can use a ref to get the stack size and call the function at the precise moment
<Tankado>
Hello i try to compile my code in SML and i get this error : 49.33 Error: syntax error: inserting LPAREN
<Tankado>
anyone know anything?
<Asmadeus>
Well, I don't know SML but are you sure you've got all the parenthesises necessary at the right place ?
<vixey>
I can't see you code
<Tankado>
i can paste it but does 49.33 mean a line or something?
<Asmadeus>
probably line.char number
<Tankado>
yeah got it
<Tankado>
thanks
<jlouis>
Tankado, line.char indeed. The SML/NJ parser has the ability to attempt to make the parse work by inserting or deleting things from the parse (to get more than one error)
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<tvn1981a>
what's the function to create a directory in ocaml ?
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<Anarchos>
i have an interface with ocaml in c++ which leads to a segfault. Can someone look my code in http://pastebin.com/me607582 ?
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<Anarchos>
i will go back, but i am really interested in an enlightened opinion about my interface
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<mfp>
tvn1981a: Unix.mkdir
<tvn1981a>
mfp: thanks
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<tvn1981a>
how do I print the Digest of a string "hello" ? I tried something like Printf.printf "%s" (Digest.string "hello");; but doesn't work --
<hcarty>
tvn1981a: I havne't used the Digest module, but I would guess that you want to Digest.to_hex function
<tvn1981a>
hcarty: yeh I'll try that
<tvn1981a>
thanks
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<tvn1981a>
what's the difference btw these 2 matching statments 1) match n with | 1 -> dosomething1 | 2 -> dosomething2 2) match n with 1-> dosomething1 | 2->dosomething2 ? Syntax wise the only difference is the extra "|" in 1) -- does it have any effect ?
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<Asmadeus>
It's the same
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<tvn1981a>
k - I thought so too - thanks
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