flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<palomer> hrmph
<palomer> well, erm, I fixed that part
<palomer> by emitting a changed signal
<palomer> but now I have to figure out how to hook up a key_press callback
<palomer> the completion seems to swallow everything
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<Yoric[DT]> ertai[NP]: ping
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: ping
<Yoric[DT]> Everyone else: hi
<Camarade_Tux> Yoric[DT], hi
<Yoric[DT]> How do you do?
<Camarade_Tux> hum, quite well, it's terribly rainy and windy but well :p
<Camarade_Tux> and you ? :) btw, do you move between orleans and lyon often ? (I mean considering your two different mail addresses)
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<ertai[NP]> Yoric[DT]: pong
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<Yoric[DT]> Camarade_Tux: technically, I'm in Paris at the moment :)
<Yoric[DT]> Studied and PhD-ed in Lyon, working in Bourges for Orléans and living in Paris.
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<Camarade_Tux> Yoric[DT], ok, see
<Camarade_Tux> btw, I wanted to ask something about your mozilla plugins slides : what do you mean with 'C++' when speaking of vulnerabilities (I'm no firefox plugin developper)
<Camarade_Tux> ?
<Yoric[DT]> You can put native (C++) code in an extension.
<Yoric[DT]> This code has strictly no restraint, no sandbox whatsoever.
<Yoric[DT]> In particular, this code has access to the in-memory representation of the JavaScript environment.
<Camarade_Tux> ok, I see, that's indeed pretty dangerous
<Camarade_Tux> thanks
<Yoric[DT]> My pleasure.
<thelema> Yoric[DT]: pong
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: for the moment, I'm hard-coding batteries.mllib .
<Yoric[DT]> That should be sufficient for the first release.
<Yoric[DT]> I'll have ocamlbuild generate it automatically (with topo sort) after we reach our first release.
<thelema> ok.
<Yoric[DT]> Right now, I'm trying to fix native linking issues.
<Yoric[DT]> Then I'll get on to Camlp4.
<Yoric[DT]> Speaking of which I'll have to ask ertai[NP] a few questions about integrating Camlp4.
<thelema> he ponged earlier
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, I have him on /msg at the moment.
<Yoric[DT]> Just on a different subject.
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: on a different subject, I'm going to talk about Batteries in the next OCaml Workshop (in January).
<Yoric[DT]> I may also try and send a short paper for JFLA.
<Smerdyakov> You would stoop so low as to submit to a regional publication? :)
<Yoric[DT]> For a very simple reason: it's co-located with the OCaml Workshop :)
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<thelema> What's there to say about batteries? I'll admit you have lots of fun with the build system, but technically I don't see the big deal.
<Yoric[DT]> Just for publicity purposes.
<Yoric[DT]> Batteries is useful only if people actually adopt it.
<Yoric[DT]> And they're not going to adopt it if they don't know about it.
<thelema> yes, I appreciate all the work you do in publicizing batteries.
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<thelema> but what's there to say other than "we've got a bunch of libraries working together in one package."
<Yoric[DT]> Well, there's the fact that many people don't seem to understand what Batteries is all about.
<Yoric[DT]> From my current discussion with ertai[NP], it seems that Xavier Leroy, for one, doesn't.
<thelema> speaking of which, one demand of mine was easy installation.
<thelema> I agree with keeping cammomile external, but can we auto-install it as part of our build system?
<Yoric[DT]> That's an interesting question.
<Yoric[DT]> I would say "no", because that might just play havoc with, say, GODI, apt-get, yum...
<Yoric[DT]> On the other hand, if symbiosis has any success, all the question may become moot.
<thelema> if people are building batteries outside of GODI/apt-get/yum... it doesn't matter
<thelema> symbiosis?
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, but I hope that many people will use Batteries inside GODI/apt-get/yum.
<Yoric[DT]> Symbiosis seems to be a ocamlbuild plug-in which handles download and installation of libraries.
<Smerdyakov> Why write "apt-get" instead of just "apt"?
<thelema> in which case the build system doesn't matter.
<Yoric[DT]> Smerdyakov: fair enough.
<Smerdyakov> There are other apt tools besides apt-get.
<thelema> but before batteries gets packaged...
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: well, it does for people using apt-build (thanks for the save, Smerdyakov:)), or other source-based management package.
<Yoric[DT]> Including GODI.
<Yoric[DT]> s/management package/package management tool/
<thelema> of course we might detect if camomile is already installed (which it should be if using a package management tool), and not do anything extra
<Yoric[DT]> That looks a bit too complex.
<Yoric[DT]> Frankly, if/when we get to that point, I think we should switch to Symbiosis.
<Yoric[DT]> Assuming that Symbiosis meets some success, that is.
<thelema> the simple solution is to require people to get camomile, ocamlnet, cryptokit, JS's core (and all its dependencies) installed?
<thelema> is JS's core packaged anywhere?
<Yoric[DT]> Simple for us, yes.
<Yoric[DT]> It's in GODI.
<thelema> other than the tarball on their website?
<thelema> ok.
<thelema> I don't use GODI
<Yoric[DT]> It's in Debian.
<Yoric[DT]> libcore-ocaml
<Yoric[DT]> It's in Fedora.
<Yoric[DT]> (also as libcore-ocaml)
<thelema> ok. I wasn't aware it was packaged (nor that anyone used it)
<Yoric[DT]> Doesn't seem to be in Gentoo.
<Yoric[DT]> (unrelated to our current conversation)
* thelema reads
* Yoric[DT] is currently faced with a linking problem in the native binary.
* Yoric[DT] has "multiple definitions of [plenty of symbols]."
* thelema starts benchmarking List
<thelema> The "Gallium version" is the stdlib one, no?
<Yoric[DT]> Yep.
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<Yoric[DT]> thelema: can I put you as "in charge" of that task?
<thelema> yes.
<thelema> although I'll admit my conclusions should be taken with a grain of salt.
<Yoric[DT]> Well, please make it as thorough as you can and publish the results.
<thelema> of course.
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* thelema expects to get lots of corrections to his testing methods after publishing results.
<Yoric[DT]> That's the whole point :)
<thelema> :)
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: I think there's a typo in the makefile - you ocamlbuild src/main/threads/batteries.cma, but you depend on src/main/threaded/batteries.cma for your doc rule.
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<Yoric[DT]> Which rule?
<thelema> byte vs. doc
<Yoric[DT]> I don't see it.
<thelema> in byte you have /threads/
<thelema> in doc, you depend on /threaded/
<thelema> L101 vs L50
<thelema> oops, not 101, maybe 99
<Yoric[DT]> Are you sure it's the latest Makefile?
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, ok
<Yoric[DT]> Now, I get it
<thelema> no, I could have messed up my merging. hold on.
<Yoric[DT]> No, no, you're right.
<Yoric[DT]> Fixed.
<thelema> should batteries.mllib end in "Batteries\nBatteries\n"?
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<thelema> well, removing the second Batteries didn't fix the problem of "reference to undefined global 'BitSet'"
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<Yoric[DT]> thelema: it didn't?
<Yoric[DT]> Wfm.
<Yoric[DT]> I'm concentrating on the native-code linking problem for the moment.
<thelema> I was dealing with the wrong file...
<Yoric[DT]> I'm down from 6000+ errors to 59 errors.
<thelema> continue on that - I was looking at an old batteries.mllib
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<Yoric[DT]> All of which boils down to module Ref being linked twice.
<Yoric[DT]> I'm trying to understand why.
<thelema> so you'll be done in .3 seconds more?
<thelema> :)
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<Yoric[DT]> :)
<thelema> which should I depend on: batteries, batteries_nothreads or batteries_threads?
<Yoric[DT]> batteries
<Yoric[DT]> It's a meta-package.
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<thelema> ok.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't quite understand how to get out of his problem.
<Yoric[DT]> If I remove module Ref, linking fails because of undefined references.
<Yoric[DT]> If I let module Ref, linking fails during ld because of symbols defined twice.
<thelema> what symbol?
<thelema> and how recently have you done make clean?
<thelema> if I make opt (in your tree + unicode + IPV6 patch), it compiles fine.
<thelema> I just keep having problems with bitset.
<Yoric[DT]> It's when linking test_threads.native .
<thelema> ok, linking your program using batteries.
<thelema> n/m then
<Yoric[DT]> ?
<Yoric[DT]> ah, ok
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<Yoric[DT]> I'll have to go now.
<thelema> bye
* Yoric[DT] will try to return in about 1-2h.
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<Anarchos> how can i prevent the global variable caml_extern_sp being overwritten by parallel callbacks ?
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* Yoric[DT] is back.
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<snejok> hallo
<Yoric[DT]> Hallo.
* Yoric[DT] seems to have fixed his double-linking issue by removing Ref from extlib.mllib, but that's weird.
<thelema> Yoric[DT]: capitalization error in batteries
<Yoric[DT]> I beg your pardon?
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<Yoric[DT]> thelema: where?
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: http://pastebin.ca/1220030
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: btw, I just committed a new version.
<thelema> applying this patch fixed my bitset problems.
<Yoric[DT]> Weird.
<Yoric[DT]> Ok.
<Yoric[DT]> Applying the patch.
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<Yoric[DT]> Now that compilation and linking work, back to documentation generation.
* Yoric[DT] has the feeling that's going to need quite some work.
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: I have a problem with native compilation --
<thelema> (.data+0x4f8): undefined reference to `unix_getsockopt_int'
<thelema> /lib/ocaml/site-lib/batteries_nothreads/batteries.a(batlib_Baselib_Unix.o): In function `camlBatlib_Baselib_Unix':
<thelema> (and more for Unix and UnixLabels)
* thelema has a bunch of list performance data, now to make nice graphs
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<Yoric[DT]> thelema: with the latest svn?
<Yoric[DT]> With which version of ocaml?
<thelema> cvs
<thelema> cvs ocaml, latest svn
<Yoric[DT]> Do you have a 3.10.x at hand to test the issue?
<thelema> I'll have to make one.
<Yoric[DT]> Can you send me the test?
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<Yoric[DT]> I mean, I assume that's what has trouble linking, is that it?
<thelema> ocamlbuild t_list.native
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<thelema> this fails with the unix errors.
<thelema> is there an easy way to ocamlbuild with -g?
<Yoric[DT]> Compiles for me.
<Yoric[DT]> Add "debug" as a tag in _tags.
<thelema> hanks
<thelema> *thanks
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<Yoric[DT]> (fun n l -> List.nth l (n/2);()));
<Yoric[DT]> "map_g", ("Gallium", "Map: *2", 100_000,
<Yoric[DT]> ==> you should put a call to [ignore]
<thelema> I've added that already.
<thelema> I was trying to cheat the syntax, but found the warnings annoying enough to do it right.
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<thelema> my tests slow down a lot at about 5 million -- just allocating a list of 5 million random numbers takes work.
<thelema> maybe I should reuse the previous lists... hmmm.
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<Yoric[DT]> Okay, documentation generation now runs.
<Yoric[DT]> It'll be a few minutes before we can know what it generates.
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<Yoric[DT]> Failure.
<thelema> complete?
<Yoric[DT]> New attempt.
<Yoric[DT]> Run-time error.
<thelema> doh.
<Yoric[DT]> I *think* it's actually because of a previous attempt.
<Yoric[DT]> So [make clean doc] launched.
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<Yoric[DT]> Okay, something is probably wrong.
<Yoric[DT]> Documentation generation has become awfully slow.
<thelema> it's always been slow.
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, but never that slow.
<Yoric[DT]> That one lasted 15+ minutes.
<Yoric[DT]> Partial success.
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<flux> what makes it slow, any ideas?
<thelema> hmm, it seems my tests are randomly locking up.
<thelema> I want to blame it on my count_fall function
<thelema> maybe there's a value of n for which it loops forever...
<Yoric[DT]> flux: well, ocamldoc has never been too fast and we have a large phase of rewriting.
* thelema limits it to 10_000 iterations
<thelema> yay, not getting stuck anymore
<Yoric[DT]> good
<thelema> well, so far Extlib wins on List.nth, and pretty much ties on everything else
<thelema> a bit of advantage on List.map2
<thelema> and slower on fold_right (doing just a sum), but gallium busts stack around 100_000 elements
<Yoric[DT]> Even on short lists ?
<thelema> nowhere do I find a crossover (one better on short and worse on long)
<olegfink> someone should tell me why Sys.argv is an array (I want list)
<thelema> olegfink: (Array.to_list Sys.argv)
<Yoric[DT]> olegfink: I don't think there's any good reason for that.
<olegfink> ehm, I was asking, why, not how.
<Yoric[DT]> Probably just because it's an array in C.
<thelema> because argv is an array.
<olegfink> argv is a list even in absolutely imperative and very C-like language, limbo
<thelema> limbo who?
<olegfink> the C descendant by Dennit Ritchie et al
<Yoric[DT]> Actually, I don't see the point of making it an array.
<olegfink> and it makes perfect sense, as there's much more iteration that random access for argv
<olegfink> and it's usually not very long
<Yoric[DT]> s/the point/any point/
<olegfink> plus who on earth wants argv to be mutable?
<thelema> sometimes fun things come from setting argv(0)
<olegfink> this question just raised from some discussion on ##java about code efficieny, I wanted to throw in a nice sample in ocaml: List.iter print_newline (List.sort compare Sys.argv) (this was the task), when I remembered that argv is a list and Array.sort is ... -> void
<Yoric[DT]> Fun as in "Hello Batman, I'm Joker."
<olegfink> er, s/void/unit/
<olegfink> neither can I understand why things like print_newline don't return their argument, so many functions of type unit looks like no fun in a funcional language for me
* Yoric[DT] agrees.
* thelema disagrees - returning unit is a good thing
<thelema> if you want to do something with the argument to print_newline, put it somewhere.
<olegfink> that's because ocaml doesn't have haskell-like composition out of the box (maybe Batteries has it?)
<olegfink> if it had, something like String.length . print_newline . "hi world" might look nice
<Yoric[DT]> Simple function composition ?
<Yoric[DT]> We have |- and -|
<Yoric[DT]> Which map, iirc, to $ and .
<Yoric[DT]> Or to the opposite.
<olegfink> aha, that's it.
<olegfink> nice, one more vote to add batteries to core then.
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<olegfink> thelema: print_newline being string -> unit makes little sense as type map
<Yoric[DT]> olegfink: or the opposite :)
<olegfink> for haskell, they do with their monadic stuff. for ocaml, I'd prefer that the type of print_newline would state that it doesn't do anything interesting to the string - so string -> string
<olegfink> Yoric[DT]: ?
<Yoric[DT]> Adding Core to Batteries :)
<olegfink> by core I meant what ships with ocaml
<Yoric[DT]> Ah, ok.
<thelema> I want my warnings when I don't use the return value of a function
<Yoric[DT]> Vocabulary needs to be standardized.
<Yoric[DT]> olegfink: for information, we call "base lib" what ships with ocaml.
<thelema> Yoric[DT]: Gallium-lib?
<Yoric[DT]> Well, except today, we call it Gallium-lib, but I assume that tomorrow, we'll resume calling it "base lib" :)
<Yoric[DT]> We call Core the library defined by Jane Street.
<olegfink> ...and after merging batteries to base lib, the next step is adding ocaml support to ACM programming contest
<Yoric[DT]> And we don't call anything "Standard Library", because everyone wants their library to be standard.
<olegfink> heh, nice state of things for a not-so-young language :-)
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<olegfink> i see the main problem (with me) is that ocaml is considered the real world language, while haskell is for all those people who want to toy with crazy stuff. But for me, ocaml is purely FUNctional language, so I want some practically worthless niceties
<Yoric[DT]> My problem is that Haskell is expected to be a toy language, but they're the ones with the real-world libraries.
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<olegfink> ocaml's library support is somewhat C-like, while haskell has some more modern things. Or at least I tried to built much more ocaml modules than haskell libraries
<olegfink> oh, and speaking more on-topic, is there anything like declarative files for ocaml?
<olegfink> (I'm afraid that's my own term)
<Yoric[DT]> Declarative files ?
<olegfink> something like file in = [ n = int; l = int list [n] ]
<thelema> olegfink: like header files in C to give types?
<Yoric[DT]> olegfink: I don't quite understand what that should mean.
<thelema> olegfink: rwmjones madr something like that with his bitstrings library
<thelema> *made
<olegfink> which would define a file with an integer n and then n integers, accesible to me in bindings 'n' and 'l' respectively
<olegfink> ah
<Yoric[DT]> What are these?
<Yoric[DT]> Rows?
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, ok, you're mapping the contents of an existing file to variables, is that it?
<olegfink> yes.
<Yoric[DT]> Well, I don't think there's anything like this.
<olegfink> preferably in a lazy manner
<Yoric[DT]> You could add some syntactic sugar on top of a parser to obtain this, I guess.
<olegfink> yeah, I even wrote something, was just chechking if there's something more clever.
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<olegfink> I got this idea from ACM contest, all their files are defined like this, so it would be nice if I could just write what the task says and don't care about actual I/O
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<olegfink> thelema: ah, bitmatch is very close to what I wanted, thanks
<olegfink> but in fact my thing really calls for lazy data structures :/
<thelema> You're welcome to make bitmatch lazy.
<Yoric[DT]> The second release of Batteries will offer a parser combinator library.
<Yoric[DT]> I guess that may be a nice place to hack, too.
<thelema> and there's some other parser combinator libraries out there - google "core foundatin"
<thelema> *foundation
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: I didn't know about that one.
<thelema> really? It's been around for a while. I've used it - quite mentally challenging to get used to monadic programming that way.
<thelema> yes, that's it.
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, I'd forgotten about it.
<Yoric[DT]> I wonder how it compares to OCamlNet.
<Yoric[DT]> Well, that'll wait after the first release.
<thelema> yup. one more thing for the TODO list.
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<Yoric[DT]> Recompiling doc...
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<Yoric[DT]> In the mean-time, I'm attempting to add Camlp4 support.
<Yoric[DT]> (that is, to use Camlp4 as a lexer, a parser and/or a pretty-printer)
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: good night (whenever you do get to sleep.) I'm leaving now.
<Yoric[DT]> Good night.
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<Yoric[DT]> Well, good night everyone.
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