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<BobDole>
What's the easiest way to detect if there's a duplicate in a list?
<astertronistic>
sorting or hashing, usually
<astertronistic>
at least conceptually
<BobDole>
there's no one liner like just convert to a set and check the lengths to see if any were removed?
<astertronistic>
hmm, maybe
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<astertronistic>
let rec dup_in_sorted_list eq list = match list with [] -> false | [_] -> false | x::(y::xs) -> if eq x y then true else dup_in_sorted_list eq (y::xs);;
<BobDole>
yea that should do it. i guess there aren't much shorter implementations
<astertronistic>
yeah, haskell could probably do it
<astertronistic>
I'm sure ocaml can too
<astertronistic>
I just don't know enough yet
<BobDole>
hmm ok thanks
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<testcocoon>
thelema: is it necessary to set OCAMLRUNPARAM=b to get a correct stack when debugging with ocamldebug?
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<adrien_oww>
you can also do it in code: see Printexc (the module)
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<testcocoon>
adrien_oww: my question is concerning oqamldebug: if I readdy understand oqamldebug should set OCAMLRUNPARAM=b before executing ocamldebug
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<adrien_oww>
ah, that, yeah
<thomasga>
testcocoon: normally no
<thomasga>
you just need -g
<testcocoon>
is this also true for remote debugging?
<thomasga>
I don't see how remote debugging could change something here
<thomasga>
you need an executable with the debug symbols
<thomasga>
but
<thomasga>
I don't know very well about ocamldebug so I might be completely wrong :p
<mcclurmc>
hi thomasga. i was creating a new opam package yesterday, when i noticed that 'opam config -list-vars' didn't return anything. is there something wrong with my configuration? how can I debug this?
<testcocoon>
OK. I will let the code so. Setting OCAMLRUNPARAM can be do by the user at the moment.
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: this bug is fixed in the 0.9
<mcclurmc>
awesome, i'll upgrade
<thomasga>
but
<thomasga>
if you upgrade, you'll get the new command line interface
<thomasga>
I know this is not ideal, but I have to do this change before the beta ...
<thomasga>
hopefully it will not break too badly your install scripts ...
<mcclurmc>
thomasga: well, i'll have to learn sometime
<mcclurmc>
no, i won't be changing our build environment opam, just my local
<mcclurmc>
haven't bothered to script anything with opam personally yet
<thomasga>
ha ok, so I guess it's fine then :-)
<mcclurmc>
so doing 'opam upgrade' won't get me to 0.9? do I have to install that manually?
<thomasga>
it is much nicer than the previous one
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: is opam 0.9 published yet? i built master from OCamlPro and it advertises 0.8.2, and doesn't show me -list-vars
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: have you run ./configure ?
<thomasga>
I've merged 0.9 to master this morning
<thomasga>
'opam config list'
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<mcclurmc>
thomasga: whoa, lots of config vars now
<mcclurmc>
aha, 'opam config list globals' is what i want
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<thomasga>
mcclurmc: have you seen the nice help screen ?
<thomasga>
:-)
<mcclurmc>
yeah, it's much cleaner now
<mcclurmc>
good work, dude
<mcclurmc>
the opam package in opam-repo doesn't point to 0.9.0 yet, does it?
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<thomasga>
not yet
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<thomasga>
I'll release 0.9 at the end of the week hopefully
<thomasga>
and that should starts the beta ...
<hcarty>
thomasga: Do you expect 0.9.0 to work without an existing OCaml installation?
<thomasga>
I hope to fix that yes
<thomasga>
(it doesn't work atm)
<hcarty>
thomasga: Cool, thanks. I got a request to add a flag to ocamlbrew to build OCaml + opam, but if opam will be able to do that on its own then that's wonderful.
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<thomasga>
hcarty: it works now :-)
<wmeyer`>
thomasga: The new command line interfaces is just awesome.
<thomasga>
thx!
<wmeyer`>
Definitely Cmlinder is brilliant for tooling - if I ever want to write a tool I will use it :-)
<thomasga>
yup, cmdliner is very neat
<wmeyer`>
thomasga: Did you thin about the opam-git package?
<thomasga>
yes, I'm planning to look at it tomorrow
<thomasga>
it's already there actually
<wmeyer`>
thx! Great.
<thomasga>
you can do: opam pin opam git:/....
<thomasga>
and that works
<wmeyer`>
yeah, probably it can do it easily
<wmeyer`>
cool
<thomasga>
but you can only use the master branch for now on
<wmeyer`>
but then remembering git url is the chalenge
<wmeyer`>
yep
<thomasga>
well
<thomasga>
if you pin it you have to remember the git url once :-)
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<wmeyer`>
oh, OK
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<thomasga>
I'll just add the concept of branch/checkout before the beta
<thomasga>
doing more than that will require a bit more of thinking
<wmeyer>
thomasga: branches are essential for trying out features
<thomasga>
yup
<wmeyer>
if you want that, then it makes things so much easier for you :-)
<wmeyer>
although i was happy to type make
<thomasga>
and checkout are essential for reproductability
<thomasga>
*checkouts*
<thomasga>
anyway, I need to go, I'll look at that tomorrow :-)
<Kakadu>
yes if I have understanded `directly` reight
<a|i>
Kakadu: by direct, I mean the above.
<a|i>
without creating a wrapper for each and every c function manually.
<Kakadu>
It seems it can't
<a|i>
how does ocaml work on ios? does it first compile to portable c?
<Kakadu>
it compiles to native code
<a|i>
how come ocaml has such good support for targeting ios arm arch? there are many more mainstream languages that do not support ios.
<Kakadu>
Some people have created pathces
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<ousado>
hmm.. conditional compilation based on ocaml version. is that possible?
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<thelema>
ousado: not easily. batteries prefilters its source files before compilation to deal with this
<thelema>
ousado: there's some camlp4 that will do this as well.
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<ousado>
thelema: thanks
<thelema>
testcocoon: I think it is, but I don't use ocalmdebug, so I don't really know.
<testcocoon>
thelema: never mind.
<thelema>
testcocoon: ok.
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<testcocoon>
thelema: but may be you should have a try with oqamldebug ;)
<thelema>
testcocoon: I've been pretty happy with gdb
<thelema>
and lots of debug printing
<testcocoon>
thelema: beleave me: trying it is adpopting it
<ousado>
a|i: part of the reason might be that writing ocaml is fun
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<a|i>
ousado: it's he lack of community that worries me.
<ousado>
lack?
<a|i>
well, small community.
<a|i>
no package manager.
<thelema>
a|i: opam
<a|i>
sparse libraries.
<thelema>
(and odb)
<a|i>
thelema: which package manager is the official one?
<thelema>
a|i: you may be surprised at what libraries there are. But yes, there's not everything under the sun.
<ousado>
a|i: I'd worry about the (lack of) community last in case of ocaml
<thelema>
a|i: no official package manager.
<thelema>
a|i: the language developers are trying to leave that to the community to decide.
<ousado>
it's super-easy to find highly knowledgeable people
<a|i>
due to the sparse libraries, I asked how easy it is to call c functions as directly as possible. ousado said a manual wrapping is required for each function.
<ousado>
no that was in #haxe :)
<ousado>
but ocaml has a similar CFFI
<a|i>
ousado: opst, it was : Kakadu: It seems it can't
<pippijn>
ocaml requires manual wrapping for almost every function
<pippijn>
every function that passes/returns traced pointers and/or integers needs wrapping
<a|i>
see, sparse libraries and manual wrapping don't get along well.
<a|i>
I don't mind the libs being sparse as long as I can easily call external ones.
<ousado>
a|i: what are you evaluating these languages for?
<a|i>
ousado: high performance image processing.
<thelema>
a|i: what libraries do you want access to?
<a|i>
thelema: many new/old libraries are in c/c++. I'd like to call them, without the pain of development in c/c++.
<a|i>
but performance cannot be sacrificed here, so ruby/pyhton are out (they need manual wrapping anyway).
<a|i>
also, with fp, implementing many algorithms feels more natural.
<a|i>
haskell has better support for automating binding to c.
<a|i>
but haskell is not as mobile friendly as ocaml.
<thelema>
a|i: good luck with haskell.
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<a|i>
thelema: never used haskell, but it seems they somehow got a bigger community.
<a|i>
bigger community doesn't mean the language is better, it means they got the marketing right.
<a|i>
and bigger community means more libraries.
<a|i>
it's strange why ocaml never got there, it's a nice language.
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<PM>
a|i: performance can be a problem in python, but the ctypes modules can help you to to write bindings
<thelema>
a|i: they've been much more inclusive when it comes to compiler changes for a long time. OCaml has recently had some sort of change in how easy it is to get new code into the core compiler
<a|i>
PM: there are a lot of small prints with cython.
<PM>
anyway, you may want to use cython for some cases
<PM>
ah
<a|i>
thelema: how do those changes affect the end ocaml user?
<ousado>
a|i:how many libraries will you have to interface?
<a|i>
ousado: unlimited :) the framework I'm thinking of would have a plugin architecture.
<thelema>
a|i: much more convenience functions in the compiler itself (record field module inference, spell checking identifiers), but also some important infrastructure (compiler libs exposed) that allow for much better development tools.
<ousado>
a|i: it's likely that you can automate a big part of CFFI code generation
<a|i>
ousado: automating cffi is such a general problem.
<ousado>
but your preferences seem to be somewhat conflicting
<a|i>
how come it doesn't exist?
<a|i>
specially when the lib are sparse, and ffi automation can help with that a lot.
<a|i>
ousado: what conflict?
<ousado>
you mean "why isn't there a 100% solution"
<a|i>
ousado: 'automated' solution. even swig is not automated enough these days.
<madroach>
thelema: Another observation: I can use BatNum in toplevel, but when compiling using ocamlc I get undefined global 'BatNum'.
<ousado>
a|i: heh doublec there is almost the entire community :)
<orbitz>
But didn't you hear? Haskell is going to solve global software crisis.
<ousado>
a|i: but the mailing list is quite responsive
<a|i>
ousado: is he the 'haskell dons' of ats?
<ousado>
he's one of the few users
<ousado>
who blog about it
<ousado>
with your set of requirements I recommend to try it
<thelema>
madroach: odd; investigating
<ousado>
I use ATS and I like it
<a|i>
would the c code generated by these languages be always more efficient than hand witten c code?
<ousado>
it's a bit like the functional version of C++
<ousado>
why would it?
<a|i>
wiki: 'The performance of ATS has been demonstrated to be comparable to that of the C and C++ '
<a|i>
if it compiles o c, what does the above means?
<orbitz>
it scores well in the language shootou
<a|i>
to*
<a|i>
is it ats -> c -> native, or ats -> native?
<thelema>
a|i: it means that there's no overhead for using it for things that C do naturally.
<ousado>
a|i: it means that it doesn't penalize you for boxing or stuff
<thelema>
if one compiled haskell via C to native, it'd certainly run slower than plain C
<thelema>
for basically the same program
<a|i>
what is the difference between haskell compiled to c and plain c?
<thelema>
a|i: because if you were asked to write a C program that did the same thing as the haskell one, you wouldn't write it the way that a codegen from haskell would write it.
<orbitz>
a|i: there is generally a penalty for automatically converting a higher level of abstraction to a lower language
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<a|i>
so the codegen is not as optimised as handwriten?
<thelema>
consider your point of view, but instead of looking at C, look at assembly.
<thelema>
*everything* compiles to assembly, so they must all be the same speed
<orbitz>
a|i: generally the goal is to remove any such penalty
<thelema>
but they're in practice not.
<thelema>
Fortran can often compile to better assembly than C because of lack of pointers
<a|i>
here is a language which does the reverse: http://halide-lang.org/ it claims that the generated c code is much more efficient than hand written c.
<a|i>
and the language itself was written in ocaml :)
<thelema>
a|i: sure; same as FFFTW - OCaml code that generates extremely fast C code.
<ousado>
a|i: look a language written for you
<a|i>
ousado: sure, except it doesn't support gpu on mobile :)
<a|i>
that's my target.
<ousado>
so add it
<a|i>
it's not trivial at all.
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<thelema>
a|i: might be easier than finding your perfect language already written. (except for C, which is somehow "not good enough")
<a|i>
how old is ats?
<ousado>
a few years
<ousado>
a single dev
<a|i>
thelema: haliade is not a complete laguage, it's an embed dsl. and it embeds in c/c++.
<a|i>
it cannot handle all algorithm implementations.
<thelema>
not so much. If you want ocaml on windows, you can use F#
<thelema>
It works, it's just really difficult to get the right build environment set up.
<a|i>
no windows, no community.
<a|i>
just this case is a perfect example.
<ousado>
who uses windows as dev environment
<a|i>
sadly, the majority.
<thelema>
Again, in the last year, there's been packaging of a windows binary, but as library distribution is mostly "compile on target system", this is... incomplete.
<a|i>
they're porting the whole compiler because it's difficult on windows. that means majority.
<ousado>
well, this is a special thing
<ousado>
graphics drivers
<ousado>
and stuff
<ousado>
here on freenode my guess is that maybe 5% use windows as dev environment
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<thelema>
ousado: much corporate development is done under windows.
<thelema>
i.e. projects that the public doesn't know about
<madroach>
thelema: Shouldn't Num be added to Legacy modules, too?
<thelema>
madroach: I thought I saw it there already
<thelema>
madroach: ah, it's not there on 1.5
<ousado>
yes, that's probably true
<thelema>
madroach: can you run ocamlobjinfo _build/src/batteries.cma | grep ": BatNum"
<madroach>
thelema: it includes BatNum. Why?
<thelema>
madroach: that shows that your batteries.cma has the batnum module in it, so BatNum should be available in bytecode linking if you include batteries.cma on the command line; what's your command line?
<madroach>
thelema: ah, I have not yet installed it. The installed batteries.cma has it, batteries_uni.cma misses it. With your changes they both contain it.
<thelema>
odd; batteries_uni.mllib has BatNum in it.
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<thelema>
well, I might be pushing v1.5.1 shortly.
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<madroach>
its not possible to include only the */, +/ ... infix operaters in batteries?!? That's not nice :(
<thelema>
madroach: what is it that you want?
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<madroach>
I want */ and //, but still need my native int * and /.
<thelema>
Num has <foo>/ operators, yes
<thelema>
include Num.Infix?
<thelema>
oh, but that overwrites your * and /?
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<madroach>
ok. That's not too bad. Looks almost like perls use :)
<thelema>
:) it is a *lot* of sybmols with few letters.
<adrien>
APL FTW!
<thelema>
I think we can easily have another module with just the <foo>/ operators; does anyone have a good name for it?
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<madroach>
thelema: why override the integer operators at all?
<thelema>
TaggedInfix?
<thelema>
madroach: it's often convenient to do: Num.(a + b * c)
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<thelema>
madroach: that's the theory, at least.
<madroach>
Looks good. That's the first time I see this Module.( ... ) syntax. Very nice...
<thelema>
madroach: yes, it was added in ... 3.12, I think.
<madroach>
thelema: like let open M in, I guess
<thelema>
yes, just different syntax
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<thelema>
Num is the only module with suffixed arithmetic operators that isn't open by default, right?
<madroach>
What about Nativeint?
<thelema>
madroach: what's the suffix for nativeint?
<thelema>
I don't see any operators defined in the base lib.
<madroach>
What do you mean by suffixed?
<thelema>
like the *. or +/
<thelema>
float has ., num has /
<madroach>
ok. I then I guess its true. I know of no others.
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<madroach>
thelema: Should Num satisfy the Number.Numeric module type?
<thelema>
Legacy.Num, probably not because of operations. BatNum probably should.
<thelema>
include (BatNumber.MakeNumeric(BaseNum): BatNumber.Numeric with type t = Num.num and module Infix := Infix)
<thelema>
so Num satisfies a modified Numeric type.
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<thelema>
did we forget to export some part of this in the .mli?
<madroach>
I don't see the MakeNumeric
<madroach>
but I'm still on the 1.x branch.
<thelema>
ah, I'm on master, one sec
<thelema>
include BatNumber.MakeNumeric(BaseNum)
<thelema>
it's there in 1.x as well
<madroach>
yes it is. But not in the html api docs. Strange.
<thelema>
that include doesn't go into the .mli
<thelema>
it provides a bunch of things that are in the api
<madroach>
Yes, sure. I just can't find any of the Make... functors or the NUMERIC_BASE module type in the html documentation. Now that I looked in the mli, too. I found it.
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<madroach>
well, thanks a lot for your prompt help thelema!
<thelema>
you're welcome
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