<rgrinberg>
tautologico: there are other lens libraries in haskell that require less cognitive strain
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<wwilly>
bonjour
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<gasche>
whitequark, did you contact Gerd? I'm playing with an external bytes package right now
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* whitequark
woke up
<whitequark>
Drup: responded on github
<whitequark>
gasche: nope, not yet. I was going to start poking Bytes now.
<whitequark>
what's your status?
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<gasche>
I have packaged an external bytes module, which I'm about to test
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<gasche>
turns out bytes.ml is not just "include String" because there are a few extra functions to export
<gasche>
this work will be useful whether the "external" or "in ocamlfind" route is chosen
<companion_cube>
a bytes package for migrating away from mutable strings?
<companion_cube>
(for older versions of OCaml)
<gasche>
yes
<companion_cube>
sounds like a great idea.
<companion_cube>
(I assume you'd use some preprocessing magic depending on the version)
<gasche>
no need, that's the good part
<gasche>
just use version constraints
<whitequark>
gasche: ok. ping me when you have something published
<companion_cube>
oh.
<whitequark>
I'll try to migrate my stuff over to it and write a blog post
<gasche>
(or, if it is embedded into ocamlfind, that's configure-time)
<gasche>
whitequark, then I will probably mail Gerd and cc: you, I've interacted with him (pleasantly) before
<whitequark>
gasche: or should we talk with Gerd first?
<gasche>
I think it's better to get his opinion before communicating widely, although the distribution form is not the most important point
<whitequark>
agreed
<gasche>
a small gotcha is that in 4.02, "bytes" is a predefined type (it helps the type-checker do its magic)
<gasche>
thankfully, Damien defined Bytes.t as an alias for "bytes"
<gasche>
of course in the compatibility module "bytes" won't be available, so people must use Bytes.t for backward-compat
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<companion_cube>
you can't add type bytes = t in the pre-4.02 version of your package?
<whitequark>
it won't be global
<companion_cube>
right
<whitequark>
(why aren't string, int, ... in Pervasives?)
<companion_cube>
(why is pervasives so big?)
<whitequark>
hysterical raisins!
<adrien>
gasche: wouldn't it be better not to have "bytes" at all? is it really useful or needed?
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<adrien>
or is it for coherency with other types, i.e. all builtin types get such an abbreviation
<adrien>
?
<companion_cube>
for the type-checker apparently, but if people use Bytes.t instead...
<adrien>
whitequark: the index looks good except for something with naming
<gasche>
the doctrine is that types that are handled by the type-checker in a special way are predefined
<gasche>
while the others are in the library
<whitequark>
adrien: oh?
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<gasche>
this explains why bytes
<gasche>
(or float, for that purpose)
<adrien>
basically, tools will look at 'http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml/' and try to get 'index' from there but upon loading the first element they get a redirection to the current day
<companion_cube>
then don't define type bytes, but type bytes_don_t_use_directly_use_Bytes_t
<companion_cube>
:D
<whitequark>
companion_cube: yeah, and that is going to show in error messages. no thanks
<companion_cube>
how so, if people use Bytes.t ? :)
<whitequark>
won't -short-paths mean the errors will contain bytes instead of Bytes.t?
<gasche>
you never know what shows in error messages
<whitequark>
that too
<adrien>
whitequark: awesome :)
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<gasche>
I just tested the bytes package, and it works
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<whitequark>
great
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<adrien>
whitequark: finished getting everything, worked well :)
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<adrien>
whitequark: minor thing though, there is no link to that index on http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml ; could you add something like "<a href=index>Full Index</a>" next to the calendar?
<whitequark>
I constantly encounter useful variables not mentioned there
<whitequark>
yeah, findlib_meta.xml last updated 8 years ago
<whitequark>
gasche: a request: can we have a mirror at github.com/ocaml/findlib?
<whitequark>
then at least I wouldn't have to use svnweb
<adrien>
findlib isn't moving very quickly usually so a local clone should be just as efficient
<adrien>
what do you find lacking from findlib's META doc? (I'm geniously curious)
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<whitequark>
for example, browse_interfaces that gasche just used
<gasche>
I copied it from somewhere else
<gasche>
:-'
<gasche>
no idea if it's really necessary
<gasche>
but that's second-order details
<whitequark>
gasche: also, can you add ccopt="-safe-string" ?
<whitequark>
oh! not for the compatibility package.
<whitequark>
I mean that seems logical; you can't pass -safe-string yourself either if you want to remain compatible, so it's better to let findlib do the job for you
<whitequark>
gasche: and: why not base-bytes?
<whitequark>
gasche: also, I believe your semantics is incorrect. in upstream, (Bytes.to_string "foo").[0] <- 'a' won't change "foo" to "aoo".
<adrien>
had never heard of browse_interfaces
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<whitequark>
gasche: so, of_string should have been String.copy.
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<gasche>
I lost some content (last message was from 12:55, then looked up the logs)
<gasche>
but I think I use copy for of_string/to_string
<whitequark>
gasche: if the goal is only to provide the compatibility layer and strictly nothing else, then sure.
<whitequark>
gasche: but if the goal is to ease adoption of -safe-string, then what I suggest is preferable.
<gasche>
you mean, make the dummy >= 4.02 package enforce -safe-string
<whitequark>
yes
<gasche>
so that people that want to compile code using Bytes under older versions are *forced* to change their code to have only immutable strings
<whitequark>
yes
<gasche>
we could add a findlib subpackage that adds the option
<whitequark>
if they do not want to make the change, they can keep compiling it exactly as it was before
<whitequark>
and (correctly!) get the deprecation warning on the mutation operations.
<gasche>
but then if they want an incremental transition, they can't
<gasche>
I don't think that's good
* whitequark
brb
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<whitequark>
gasche: ok. in principle, I agree with the incremental transition argument.
<whitequark>
but, consider this: the change is not significantly invasive. all it amounts to is changing some 'string's to 'bytes' and inserting conversion functions.
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<whitequark>
I do not think there is a case where it would truly be problematic to convert the entirety of a single file
<whitequark>
and, for multiple files, you can easily do incremental transition--just include the package only for a subset of files.
<mrvn>
whitequark: "all it amounts to is changing" <<- invasive
<mrvn>
whitequark: and the problem is the ripple effect. because all the reverse dependencies need to change too
<whitequark>
mrvn: no.
<whitequark>
if they do not use -safe-string, they will be able to use the string and bytes signatures alike
<whitequark>
oh, "reverse"
<mrvn>
also now basically every function taking a string needs to be duplicated to also have a bytes flavour.
<whitequark>
well, that's actually how it must be. why do you claim that you observe an invariant if you know your dependencies, whose API you reexport, don't?
<whitequark>
mrvn: that's an odd claim
<mrvn>
whitequark: The problem is that you MUST change things for it to even keep working
<whitequark>
mrvn: no, you're not! with the way it's currently implemented, you can blissfully ignore it and your stuff will keep working
<mrvn>
whitequark: it breaks with --safe-strings#
<whitequark>
then don't enable -safe-string in your code?
<mrvn>
whitequark: and if you don't then safe strings never get adopted
<mrvn>
Can you even mix modules compiles with and without safe-strings?
<whitequark>
yes
<mrvn>
whitequark: Why doesn't string remain mutable and you add a new module for immutable strings?
<whitequark>
because string literals must become immutable
<whitequark>
otherwise you spend time in loops in pointless copying. we've seen that in Ruby, it's not a solution.
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<mrvn>
whitequark: so they become the new type. It would still be less invasive
<whitequark>
and size(code that mutates strings) <<< size(code that uses string literals)
<mrvn>
whitequark: I would say: size(code that mutates strings) >>> size(code that cares about string literals being immutable)
<whitequark>
I would start with the fact that mutable literals are just horrible design that should have never been implemented
<mrvn>
or size(number of lines with mutable strings) >>> size(lines with string literals)
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<whitequark>
and this is probably just not true
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<whitequark>
(fortunately, it's easy enough to verify even with grep)
<mrvn>
every bit of IO has mutable strings
<ggole>
If by IO you mean Unix
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<mrvn>
ggole: yes
<whitequark>
directly using Unix, eve
<whitequark>
even*.
<mrvn>
or sprintf
<whitequark>
sprintf?
<mrvn>
ok, sprintf is internal
<gasche>
sprintf will be fixed
<whitequark>
if you use, say, Buffer, you're safe
<mrvn>
Will printf.sprintf write to bytes but then return a string?
<gasche>
mrvn, it probably uses Buffer anyway
<ggole>
User code doesn't have to care.
<gasche>
but yes
<gasche>
there is a Bytes.unsafe_to_string function that you can use if you promise never to mutate a byte sequence again
<ggole>
You have to copy the final string out anyway (unless there's a truncation hack, I suppose)
<mrvn>
sprintf gives string, bprintf gives buffer. how to I print to bytes?
<gasche>
you can use String.blit that writes to a byte sequence
<mrvn>
gasche: useless copy
<whitequark>
yes, that's a good point
<gasche>
do you have an example of the kind of writing you have in mind?
<ggole>
Does Buffer allow extraction to bytes?
<whitequark>
Buffer clearly should.
<mrvn>
ggole: write data to a block of bytes and then add a checksum before writing it to disk.
<gasche>
yes, Buffer.to_bytes
<gasche>
(bytes_content would probably be a better name but well)
<mrvn>
is there Buffer.unsafe_to_bytes?
<whitequark>
gasche: or aliasing content as to_string :)
<whitequark>
mrvn: what for?
<ggole>
mrvn: Buffer would seem to allow that?
<mrvn>
whitequark: for when the buffer only has one bytes member and you never use the buffer again.
<whitequark>
a member? Buffer has members?
<whitequark>
what do you mean?
<mrvn>
whitequark: isn't a buffer a rope of bytes or something internally?
<gasche>
looks like Digest doesn't take bytes yet, we could fix that
<whitequark>
I think it's bytes which are reallocated exponentially larger
<gasche>
in any case
<ggole>
It's a block, which might not be of the right size.
<mrvn>
gasche: please first add my patch for Digest to tabe bigarray
<gasche>
I feel we're diverging
<ggole>
Unless there's a truncation hack you can't reuse that storage.
<mrvn>
ggole: you can't truncate. The GC needs the correct length of the block
<ggole>
You update the block header and make a fake object to put at the end.
<mrvn>
ggole: that wouldn't be string compatible.
<whitequark>
mrvn: I wonder if Digest should be improved at all
<ggole>
...the block is a string, so yes it would.
<ggole>
But there isn't such machinery, so this is all irrelevant.
<mrvn>
whitequark: why not?
<whitequark>
mrvn: it only offers md5, isn't it?
<whitequark>
"The digests are of cryptographic quality: it is very hard, given a digest, to forge a string having that digest."
<whitequark>
is not true anymore.
<mrvn>
whitequark: true. should be sha now
<whitequark>
it is trivial to forge an md5 digest given very modest resources (a laptop, say) and modest ime.
<ggole>
Actually there's caml_obj_truncate, but I wouldn't want to fiddle with that.
<whitequark>
improving it would suggest that one should use it, whereas it is clearly not true
<gasche>
mrvn, the patch is less uncontroversial than just adding bigarray support to digest
<gasche>
it creates a depency from Bigarray to Digest (maybe that's unavoidable), and add a whole new interface to Digest (that is a probably good idea in the long run but won't be mergeable in a few days)
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<gasche>
that's not a criticism but I can't just include it right away
<gasche>
hm
<gasche>
I'd like to go back (temporarily) to the -safe-string point of whitequark
<gasche>
I still think we shouldn't enforce it in a >= 4.02 bytes package
<whitequark>
gasche: why?
<mrvn>
I think it's a bad design overall. mutability should be a phantom type.
<gasche>
in my opinion it's like new warnings: they are here because we think they can improve code, but we don't forcefully -warn-error them to users
<gasche>
we're offering a possibility to improve their code if they want to, not forcing them to
<gasche>
I understand the idea of making political decisions in some situations
<whitequark>
gasche: I disagree, unless all code uses -safe-string, there is practically no benefit, as there is no real invariant
<whitequark>
gasche: if they do not want to improve the code, they may not use the package (and Bytes module) at all!
<gasche>
but I don't think forcing strings to be immutable sooner is worthy of pissing people off
<gasche>
well
<whitequark>
I mean, I'm not forcing everyone to make strings immutable, I'm trying to eradicate a certain transitional state
<whitequark>
where the code appears to conserve the immutability invariant but in reality does not
<gasche>
but I don't see the benefits of that
<gasche>
note that unsafe coercions allow people to lie about immutability anyway, even in the -safe-string mode
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<whitequark>
Obj.magic exists too, that doesn't remove the need for OCaml's type system :]
<gasche>
I don't see the problem with other people keeping using mutable strings, except maybe that it would delay the time at which a few more optimizations in the compiler would become acceptable
<gasche>
OCaml users tend to be educated
<gasche>
they can decide whether they want to activate safe-string or not
<whitequark>
I think the situation where you have a type with a declared invariant (immutable) and at the same time *invite* usage of the type which violates that invariant, by knowingly disabling the check that verifies it, is problematic.
<def-lkb>
gasche: coercions from immutable to mutable without Obj are allowed ?
<gasche>
yes
<gasche>
currently there is both, but I think I only recommended mutable->immutable to Damien
<whitequark>
gasche: although you may be right, because: 1) code that only supports OCaml >=4.02 doesn't have to depend on bytes; 2) if a package which uses -safe-string depends on one that does not and doesn't know about bytes, the problem is still here.
<gasche>
a phantom type system would be easier to use, but we couldn't make it backward-compatible
<whitequark>
gasche: ok, I have to agree that we do not include -safe-string in -package bytes. not because I think there is no need, but because that won't really help achieve the goal I want.
<whitequark>
mrvn: functors.
<whitequark>
the arity thing.
<gasche>
it's not directly related to arity
<whitequark>
gasche: oh? what else?
<mrvn>
whitequark: iirc works fine with the phantom type being declared.
<gasche>
you could just use _mutable _string or _immutable _string to get the right arity
<ggole>
mrvn: that type needs a type variable
<gasche>
there are problems with the value restriction for example
<whitequark>
mrvn: it does not, check it.
<whitequark>
oh, being declared. hmm.
<mrvn>
whitequark: we did that a few days ago and came to the conclusion that `a foo doesn't work but int foo does.
<whitequark>
right.
<mrvn>
string would be strictly mutable.
<mrvn>
no type variable involved
<gasche>
if you add polymorphism to the String API you quickly get in situations where modules fail because of undetermined type variables
<whitequark>
mrvn: [> ...] is sugar for [> ...] as 'a, isn't it?
<mrvn>
gasche: string wouldn't be. only the new phatnom types module.
<mrvn>
whitequark: type string = [ `Mutable ] bytes
<gasche>
mrvn, but string literals would still be of type string, and using immutable strings require everyone to change their code
<gasche>
not just the people using mutations
<mrvn>
gasche: yes. that's the drawback of backward compatibility
<whitequark>
would still be immutable*, rather
<whitequark>
or you have to copy them everywhere, which is really bad
<gasche>
Batteries has had immutable strings and arrays for age, and as far as I can tell nobody uses them
<ggole>
Mmm, it really needs to be the default string type to catch on
<gasche>
with the current -safe-string solution, most programs can switch to immutable strings with almost no change to the source code
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<gasche>
(because in practice they use them immutably anyway)
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<mrvn>
gasche: you get the same effect by making string = [ `Immutable ] bytes
<gasche>
<gasche> if you add polymorphism to the String API you quickly get in situations where modules fail because of undetermined type variables
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<mrvn>
gasche: you aren't adding anything to string
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<mrvn>
gasche: The only thing that changes is that String.t gets aliased to something new
<gasche>
Damien spent a few days trying various ways to do the change
<gasche>
I would be very happy if you had a better solution, but I suggest you try it first (for example bootstrapping the compiler with the new code variant would give you feedback of what breaks and how comfortable converting code is)
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<mrvn>
gasche: I would love that too
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<gasche>
mrvn, nicoo had a patch recently on a new hash implementation
<gasche>
one question that was raised during the discussion, and which also raised a discussion a few months ago among Batteries contributor
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<gasche>
is whether we could provide a better (shared) interface to *several* hashes, not too far from the "context" version you show in your patch
<gasche>
(which is also essentially what nicoo used for his implementation)
<gasche>
I think there is room for useful contributions in this space, outside the standard library
<gasche>
eg. a small "hashes" module that proposes various hashes with a convenient API could be very nice
<gasche>
(hashes and digests)
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<adrien>
gasche: really completely btw, I'll probably try to move ocaml to use -O2 (maybe with additional options) when a recent gcc is found
<adrien>
the idea being that -O0 or -O1 are too conservative with recent GCC versions
* adrien
one bug left, days of testing, win-builds 1.4 soon
<gasche>
I think Mark Shinwell discussed doing that recently
<gasche>
it may be the case that the work has already been done by the time you look at it (good!)
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<adrien>
that would be awesome
<adrien>
it'll be a few weeks before such a change anyway
<adrien>
I expect 4.02 this summer (simply because it seems all release happen in the middle of summer)
<adrien>
and I'd be happier with things changed after that
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<Drup>
AeroNotix: use ocp-indent, and you can configure that to your preferences
<Drup>
whitequark: can't you ask for commit right to the original repository ?
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<Drup>
or whatever github fork spagetti you want to do. I think having a "main" repository as a github fork is confusing for everyone.
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<whitequark>
Drup: it's quite common
<whitequark>
I don't think any action is needed here
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<Drup>
ok
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<Drup>
(It may be common, it doesn't make it less confusing, but, well)
<whitequark>
(if it's common, it means that eventually one has to adjust the mental model anyway.)
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<Drup>
whitequark: I don't count the time we had to redirect someone to the new deriving repository to someone who was looking to the main one (according to github)
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<whitequark>
I'm not saying it can't be confusing, I'm saying this is an unavoidable side effect of DVCS-driven development model
<whitequark>
i.e. the right solution is to educate users, not to try go back to SVN
<Drup>
I never said to go back to svn =)
<whitequark>
ok :p
<whitequark>
by the way, I wanna let%lwt
<whitequark>
merge it already! :D
<Drup>
:)
<Drup>
whitequark: you can look at it/use it already
<Drup>
that would be nice to have someone writing code with it, so that you can tell me if the error reporting is correct
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<Drup>
aah, no, I have no instalation mechanism yet beause oasis is not fixed >_<
<whitequark>
I think you do install it into global /bin ?
<whitequark>
well, opam bin in this case
<Drup>
I need to fix the opam for that, I didn't do it yet
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<whitequark>
hm? I believe it will just work
<whitequark>
we'll see soon enough
<whitequark>
wtf, the build is broken
<Drup>
oh ?
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<whitequark>
well... yes, I'm using trunk ppx_metaquot
<whitequark>
without the .exe part
<Drup>
:D
<whitequark>
would you kindly remove it from the invocation?
<Drup>
will do, fix it locally for now :)
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<whitequark>
$ ls -d ocaml-* | wc -l
<whitequark>
16
<whitequark>
and most of that is external projects I've been fixing -_-'
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<whitequark>
Drup: uhhh, yes, it attempts to install it into /usr/local/bin
<whitequark>
but my homegrown ppx_protobuf extension correctly installs it into opam's bin, and I didn't do anything for that
<whitequark>
weir
<whitequark>
*weird
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<ggole>
Hmm, I half expected Module.{...} to work
<whitequark>
there's been some discussion of making it work
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<ggole>
Not crushingly important, but it would be nice
<Drup>
ggole: it's in
<Drup>
4.02*
<ggole>
Oh, nice
<whitequark>
Drup: oh, that's because OASIS tries to install .byte file as an arch-independent
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<whitequark>
mrvn: I just noticed: lwt (which is basically built around IO) there are five deprecation warnings about Bytes
<whitequark>
I cannot share your sentiment that transition would be complex and invasive.
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<Drup>
"Fatal error: Not_found" when compiling the trunk :(
<whitequark>
Drup: trunk of what?
<Drup>
ocaml
<whitequark>
whoa.
<whitequark>
try 2014-04-29
<Drup>
grmbl, can't give precise date to opam
<whitequark>
and it doesn't record the commit hash, sadly
<whitequark>
oh, I used my own lwt fork, nevermind
<whitequark>
no, still doesn't work
<Drup>
what did I do wrong ? :D
<whitequark>
no, opam still used my own fork because I didn't do opam update
<whitequark>
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
<whitequark>
let's reinstall lambda-term and utop for fourth time...
<whitequark>
yay it worked.
<whitequark>
Drup: now another thing does not: let%lwt foo = bar in let%lwt...
<whitequark>
the second %lwt is flagged as an error
<whitequark>
I can see why it's not merged.
<Drup>
I did tell it was not ready nor tested
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<whitequark>
just stating a fact
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<whitequark>
Drup: oh, hm, I think the issue is in my usage of try%lwt
<whitequark>
you don't seem to handle it
<Drup>
indeed, try is not implemented
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<whitequark>
would you do it? or should I?
<Drup>
the issue is that I'm not sure how to handle the finally
<Drup>
so I postponned it
<whitequark>
let's omit it for now
<Drup>
yes
<whitequark>
finally, I mean.
<whitequark>
not try%lwt :D
<Drup>
if you are in a hurry, go on, but I will do it :)
<whitequark>
well, I converted my code to ppx_lwt, and now it's broken
<whitequark>
and I can't go on.
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* whitequark
sighs
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<whitequark>
ok, I'll rollback to camlp4 for now, I guess
<Drup>
you like your edges very very bleeding, don't you ?
<whitequark>
story of my life.
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<whitequark>
I even moved in a practically empty neighborhood a few years back. it was nice for a while, now it's full of people.
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<gasche>
whitequark, why don't you write the ppx-mode yourself?
<gasche>
if you want to use it, it's better for you to fix it than force synchronization with poor Drup
<gasche>
my pain point with -ppx is that it isn't obviously merlin-compatible
<gasche>
I expect it will change after it sees some usage to become more merlin-friendly, but that will be painful to early-adopters during the 4.02 cycle
<whitequark>
gasche: well, I did offer to write it myself...
<whitequark>
merlin doesn't work on 4.02 anyway, so doesn't ocp-index
<def-lkb>
… I hope to have a beta version soon.
<Drup>
gasche: what is the relation between me and merlin ?
<gasche>
none?
<gasche>
(I don't know)
<Drup>
ok, you put two non related sentences close together :p
<gasche>
def-lkb, don't stress out, it's not feature-freezed yet
<gasche>
(but you didn't answer about whether you had a .merlin file for the ocaml distribution, which I would be interested in)
<gasche>
I could write one myself but that involves reading doc, yawn
<mrvn>
In ocaml are signal handlers allowed to Printf.printf?
<def-lkb>
sure, anyway I am on syntax recovery atm :'
<def-lkb>
(I think I missed your question, I don't have a proper .merlin for ocaml distribution, but it shouldn't be hard to do)
<gasche>
"syntax recovery"? sounds like an interesting context
<gasche>
*concept
<def-lkb>
:D, syntax error* ? :)
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<whitequark>
mrvn: I think in ocaml signal handlers can do anything
<mrvn>
whitequark: odd. The signal handler is called with the output channel mutex held so it deadlocks when it tries to take it again.
<mrvn>
(the signal comes in the middle of a print)
<mrvn>
Has anyone used signals without threads and printed a lot?
<Drup>
whitequark: no but really, if you are in such a hurry, you can finish the ppx
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<whitequark>
I'm fine with camlp4 so far, it doesn't make a difference right now
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<Drup>
whitequark: ppx option for utop doesn't seem to work
<Drup>
I just checked to be sure, nested let%lwt works fine.
<Drup>
and I added an opam file at the root of my branch of lwt
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<Drup>
whitequark: did you solve the issue to compile an executable for tests with a ppx defined in the same oasis file ?
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<whitequark>
Drup: yes, the ppx option seems to not handle extension nodes
<Drup>
that's weird.
<whitequark>
i.e. something inside utop raises on them before the extension has a chance to replace them. I didn't catch that, because ppx_protobuf doesn't use extension nodes
<whitequark>
I'll figure it out a bit later (in a bus right now, so you could say I'm bus-y)
<whitequark>
Drup: an opam file?
<whitequark>
what would that do?
<Drup>
whitequark: when you pin a project with an opam file at the root, it uses this one instead
<whitequark>
Drup: I did solve it, or rather Sylvain explained it to me
<swsch>
I'm trying to install freetds, and opam (using aspcud wants to downgrade packages that seem to be totally unrelated. Am I doing something wrong?
<whitequark>
long story short, take a look at ppx_protobuf or ppx_getenv (my example extension)
<Drup>
ok
<gasche>
swsch, it may be related to changes in upstream packaging information about those packages
<gasche>
very recent (possibly trunk) versions of OPAM have a feature to explain version changes
<swsch>
I've just tried with --no-aspcud and the built-in solver installs only freetds
<swsch>
my opam is 1.1.1 installed via ocamlbrew
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<gasche>
swsch, if you can export your current state and your request, to send to the aspcud/opam maintainers, they may be interested
<swsch>
I'll try to get back to the state before (now that it has been installed).
<swsch>
If the problem shows up again, I'll open an issue in opam's tracker
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<gasche>
swsch, to export the state, it looks like it suffices to add --cudf=foo to your command
<gasche>
eg. I suppose "opam install ... --cudf=foo"
<gasche>
this will produce a file "foo", in the CUDF dependency-solving-description-format, that should tell enough to the developpers
<swsch>
gasche: strangely enough, specifying solver preferences had no effect ... but that could also be due to the aspcud-proxy script
<Drup>
oh, you're using the proxy
<Drup>
are you sure it's actually interrogating the server, the mass downgrade can also result from "I didn't succeed at using my solver, so I do something nonsensical"
<swsch>
it works much better for "opam upgrade" than the built-in solver
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<swsch>
it's not a "mass" downgrade, it's about 10 packages or so
<Drup>
that qualifies at mass downgrade, yes :)
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<swsch>
00:01.880 018776 CUDF graph_of_actions root_actions={ - downgrade lambda-term.216 to 186, - downgrade react.104 to 103, - downgrade utop.246 to 210, - install ocamldbi.114 }
<AeroNotix>
I keep hearing references to "The Solver", like it's some religious relic which solves mighty computational problems. What is "The Solver" ?
<swsch>
I see that installing ocamldbi has the same effect.
<AeroNotix>
Drup: checking out ocp-ident now, cheers.
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<Drup>
AeroNotix: opam includes a built in solver
<Drup>
for packaging constraint and all this stuff
<swsch>
it resolves package dependencies such that you have a consistent system.
<Drup>
and can also use an external one
<AeroNotix>
Aha, nice
<Drup>
and the built in one is .. not really good
<AeroNotix>
But.. is this really something specific to OCaml?
<AeroNotix>
like
<Drup>
no
<AeroNotix>
I imagine it to be X depends on Y,J,K with versions N,P,R
<AeroNotix>
and the thing just "solves" this
<AeroNotix>
interesting
<Drup>
well, it's basically an SMT formula
* AeroNotix
googles
<Drup>
come one, bachelor lvl in CS !
<Drup>
on*
<Drup>
:)
<AeroNotix>
I left school at 15
<AeroNotix>
so...
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<swsch>
I just checked, the proxy script passes the criteria along to the server
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<whitequark>
utop also breaks if the ppx rewriter throws. that's pretty unhelpful
<swsch>
Thanks for listening and advice, time to call it a night.
<whitequark>
Drup: no, it's a definitive solution.
<Drup>
whitequark: you're not doing the same thing in getenv
<whitequark>
Drup: whoops, I updated the blog post but didn't push the repo
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<Drup>
whitequark: did you had an explanation on the why ?
<whitequark>
anyway, Sylvain told me that this is how OASIS is supposed to work
<whitequark>
and that this won't be changed
<jpdeplaix>
whitequark: if nobody reply to my proposal on llvm-commits, I guess it's not a good sign :/
<Drup>
I don't use oasis in order to have to invoke ocamlbuild manually
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<jpdeplaix>
what should I do ?
<whitequark>
Drup: the rationale appears to be "the compilation itself is a test", and he has a point
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<whitequark>
Drup: I can forward the conversation to you and you can discuss it further, if you want.
<Drup>
whitequark: and what if I want to write a ppx and use it in a library defined in the same _oasis ?
<Drup>
it's possible in camlp4 syntax packages.
<jpdeplaix>
Drup: what do you need in oasis ?
<whitequark>
for *that*, OASIS should have a feature but does not currently have one. he said he'll implement it sometimes.
<Drup>
oh, ok
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<Drup>
then it will be possible without manual ocamlbuild invocation, fine.
<whitequark>
jpdeplaix: it can be quite common. can you give me the links to patches again?
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<Drup>
whitequark: I actually prefer the previous solution you used in getenv
<whitequark>
Drup: it doesn't work with CompiledObject: best
<Drup>
I know
<whitequark>
and generated code can be enormous, e.g. menhir or something
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<whitequark>
jpdeplaix: I'll ping the right people in the following days
<Drup>
I was going to do "if flag (tests) then best else bytes
<Drup>
but it doesn't work
<whitequark>
yes, OASIS' language is quite limited
<Drup>
no, that's no the issue
<Drup>
it doesn't find the "tests" flag ...
<whitequark>
odd
<Drup>
yes
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<Drup>
CompiledObject field can not be conditional anyway
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<jpdeplaix>
whitequark: thanks a lot
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<AeroNotix>
Drup: ocp-indent is pretty cool!
<AeroNotix>
love tooling like this
<AeroNotix>
simple things like formatting code and such stuff seems trivial but if you don't have to think about it, it speeds up development so much.
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<mrvn>
*grummel* Somehing is off with my thread module. When I only yield manually everything works fine but when I yield in the signal handler for the tick the GC goes wild.
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<whitequark>
threads are tricky.
<whitequark>
crap, it's almost four in the morning
<AeroNotix>
whitequark: happened to me yesterday
<whitequark>
it happens to me every day -_-
<AeroNotix>
are you in .jp or something?
<whitequark>
.ru. UTC+4
<AeroNotix>
ah ok
<AeroNotix>
.pl here
<AeroNotix>
plz don't invade
<AeroNotix>
k thx
<whitequark>
.jp is waaaaaay further
<whitequark>
like about twelve hours further
<AeroNotix>
Dammit Jim I'm a programmer not a geographer
<whitequark>
uh... you ever looked at a globe?
<AeroNotix>
whitequark: it's 1:21am
<AeroNotix>
I'm not thinking straight
<whitequark>
(don't invade) sane people in .ru consider our government criminal. alas, not too many sane people left
<AeroNotix>
whitequark: I assumed this would be the case.
<AeroNotix>
Kinda scary times
<whitequark>
so let's hope NATO will respond to a .pl invasion with a full-scale nuclear war
<whitequark>
because nothing else will deter them
<AeroNotix>
Ok, *very* scary thought
<tautologico>
Putin is crazy
<whitequark>
sadly, I mean that seriously too
<whitequark>
it really is the only thing that will keep Putin at bay
<whitequark>
MAD *is* scary.
<AeroNotix>
Then you'll break out all the secret allegiences .ru has with various arab nations
<Drup>
Don't take it badly but I'm really curious : why are you staying there ?
<AeroNotix>
Drup: me or whitequark ?
<Drup>
whitequark:
<whitequark>
Drup: so far, the only option I have is relocating and being at a whim of some big tech company
<AeroNotix>
whitequark: do you know Erlang?
<whitequark>
it is not exactly exciting to know that if someone doesn't like my face tomorrow, I'll have to return in whatever state RU will then be
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<whitequark>
within a month or so, if I don't find someone else who wants to employ me.
<Drup>
whitequark: right :/
<whitequark>
AeroNotix: well, I have read Joe Armstrong's thesis and appreciated the design. I could probably write decent Erlang code in two weeks to a month, if needed.
<AeroNotix>
whitequark: I'll pm you my e-mail address.
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<tautologico>
I know a lot of people working overseas
<tautologico>
developers
<whitequark>
most of our team does
<tautologico>
some are almost getting canadian citizenship
<whitequark>
Thailand and Bali are in fashion lately
<tautologico>
most are in Canada, Germany and the US
<tautologico>
good programmers can get good jobs almost anywhere, and the jobs people can get here rarely pay as well as a job in a developed country
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<AeroNotix>
Weirdly, I'm from the UK originally, but I moved to .pl
<whitequark>
tautologico: for me the issue is not worrying about the (lack of defined) future I have somewhere overseas.
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<whitequark>
some people I know are OK with working on Bali where they are basically in a legal grey area and have almost 0 rights if something goes wrong.
<whitequark>
I'm not.
<tautologico>
so why not other countries?
<AeroNotix>
The UK is not far away and has great opportunities at the moment for certain functional programming languages
<whitequark>
I mean, that's the rationale for not relocating under the umbrella of some big tech company.
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<tautologico>
the US can be complicated, but there are plenty of other places with good jobs where you can relocate permanently if you want
<whitequark>
perhaps I'm too paranoid about it.
<whitequark>
I don't really want to live in US for the rest of my life :p
<Drup>
europe as a russian should be pretty easy, shouldn't it ?
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<AeroNotix>
Drup: not really
<Drup>
oh ?
<tautologico>
you don't need to go to the US
<whitequark>
Drup: it depends on what do you mean by "europe"
<AeroNotix>
Drup: afaict, no. It's outisde the EU
<AeroNotix>
so it's the same as for any non-EU citizen
<AeroNotix>
easier if you have a company batting on your side :)
<AeroNotix>
but it's definitely not as bad as the US
<Drup>
AeroNotix: sure, but I though it has some agreement.
<AeroNotix>
Drup: perhaps it does? I'm not 100%
<whitequark>
Drup: of course not
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<nicoo>
Drup: Where I was in Graz, it was fairly difficult for Russian PhD students to get through all the red tape to get their residence permit renewed
<Drup>
:/
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<Drup>
national borders and stuff are such a mess X_x
<nicoo>
in the end, a local PhD student came with the Russian one and read the relevant law text to the person had the desk to get Ayrat's papers :(
<nicoo>
Drup: They sure are.
<whitequark>
EU would have imposed an economic blockade on RU if it could, much less have a (bilateral, supposedly) agreement