ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.01.0 announce at http://bit.ly/1851A3R | Logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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* whitequark has spent 6.5 hours trying to prove a theorem
<whitequark> turns out it was wrong
<whitequark> -_-'
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<ggole> Heh.
<ggole> Pierce has a thing in TAPL about that: Why bother proving theorems about languages when they usually aren't very interesting? A: They are usually wrong.
<whitequark> actually no, seems correct
<whitequark> I'm just incompetent
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<whitequark> ooooooh. it's the fact that my binary numbers have more than one representation
<whitequark> or specifically, zero has more than one representation
<whitequark> Coq asked me to prove BO = BD BO
<ggole> Hmm, I don't have Coq installed at the moment.
<whitequark> apt-get install coq ? :P
<ggole> Yeah, it's more the emacs stuff (proof general) that takes a bit of fiddling about
<whitequark> grmbl. no idea whatsoever on what to do with this.
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<ggole> Hmm, CoqIDE gets into this state where it doesn't let you edit the code or close the buffer. ಠ_ಠ
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<ggole> FFS, who puts (setq byte-compile-error-on-warn t) in their makefile and provides no way to turn it off? :|
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<adrien> guile?!
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<gasche> whitequark: as you probably found out by now
<gasche> there is no "short way" into Coq
<gasche> only the long, painful way
<gasche> the time you spend any given chapter of Software Foundations is neglegible over the time you'll struggle to do the exercises
<gasche> (technically the answer to "a quick introduction to proof assistants" should not be "there is no such introduction yet, come back next year" but "there is no such proof assistant yet, come back in ten years"
<gasche> )
<companion_cube> "a no such introduction to quick proof assistants"
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<NoNNaN> "thats not entirely true, show me your proof" :)
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<avsm> gasche: whitequark: there will hopefully be an icfp/cufp Coq tutorial this year
<NoNNaN> I just wondering how it is possible to find bugs in a 8GB generated coq proof
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<flux> or even understand what is being proven :)
<gasche> avsm: who is giving it?
<flux> I would give that whatever it proves it does correctly, it is after all verified
<avsm> gasche: not confirmed it, a few have been asked
<gasche> flux: Coq reduces the "misunderstanding surface" from (all the code/proofs) to (the specification/statements)
<gasche> which is often an several-orders-of-magnitude improvement
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<flux> gasche, yes, but it of course depends on how the proof is written, not all proofs automatically have this property :)
<flux> "we show that the system is correct. the correctnes of the system is proven by the following generated 1024 lemmas:"
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<Kakadu> Btw
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<torben_> Hi!
<torben_> I've got an interview with Jane Street coming up.
<Kakadu> About OCaml Workshop 2013. Is video already available?
<torben_> Can anyone point me towards a resource that gets me up to speed with OCaml quickly?
<torben_> I've got a reasonably strong background in Haskell
<torben_> so, I can handle a more advanced tutorial
<torben_> (but I don't think I'd have the time to go through Real World Ocaml)
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<torben_> (oh, of course I can google myself; but it would be good to tap into the community wisdom for finding the most well-regarded sources, that's why I'm asking ;))
<gasche> torben_: you could read the OCaml manual directly
<gasche> it starts with an introduction that will let you know the syntax differences from Haskell
<gasche> and then you've got an exhaustive language reference
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<gasche> torben_: then you should probably learn to use one of the asynchronous monadic libraries (Async or Lwt)
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<gasche> (being familiar with the language in general does not suffice to be at ease with those; the other case would be reactive programming (React))
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<torben_> Great. I just skimmed the manual, and it seems quite thorough. Thanks for the help!
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<Drup> grmbl, I stumble upon a super quick tutorial to ocaml for the haskeller, I don't find it anymore
<Drup> (well, torben_ is gone anyway)
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<gasche> Drup: ezyang's?
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<Drup> gasche: do you have a link ? I don't find it
<Khady> damn
<gasche> :p
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<Drup> ok, so that's the opposite direction :p
<Drup> hum
<Drup> no
<Drup> pff
<def-lkb> >_<
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* adrien pats Drup
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<ggole> gasche: somebody is recapitulating (most of) our specialisation vs polymorphism argument on LtU
<ggole> And again polymorphic recursion seems to be the sticking point.
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<ggole> Never mind, evidently you saw it
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<ggole> ontologiae: hmm, something funny is going on there
<ontologiae> ggole: isn't it ? ;-)
<ggole> The compiler thinks the patterns aren't exhaustive
<ontologiae> ggole: So, I tried to match a pattern with 'l'
<ontologiae> I get something more strange : Error: This expression has type ex#1 but an expression was expected of type a
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<ggole> Those are how the strange type variables that are used to type GADTs are printed
<ontologiae> So, #0 is the first ?
<ggole> I'm not sure.
<Drup> ex#1 are for existential types that are "unpacked" by a gadt
<ontologiae> It would be logical, because ex#1 match with a
<Drup> for example, if you have the folowing type : "type foo = Foo : 'a -> foo"
<Drup> the type of the content of Foo is not really know, when you pattern match
<Drup> so it's given an abstract type
<Drup> (and a weird name)
<Drup> (ex#1)
<ontologiae> Seems very difficult…
<ggole> That's GADTs for you
<Drup> ontologiae: so first, you don't need all those type annotations
<Drup> except for find
<ggole> Hmm, I think it's the module getting in the way
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<ggole> But why would that affect GADT typing?
<ggole> (I've removed the module and placed the contents into the same file, and the exhaustiveness warnings then go away.)
<ontologiae> I tried, but I have the same pb with find
<Drup> also
<Drup> I'm not sure what you want to do
<ontologiae> I want to find an element by its index
<Drup> but I think your list is not the type you want :p
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<ontologiae> I want a sort of hash table which the key is int
<ontologiae> but the value can be anything
<flux> you mean you want to put (42, "hello") and (44, 5.0) into the same hash table?
<ggole> So an alist with typed length?
<Drup> a list would be a really terrible hash table
<def-lkb> Wow, this seems to need more expressivity than GADTs alone allow.
<ontologiae> flux: exactly
<flux> 2/9
<flux> oops
<ggole> Hmm, you could map an int to a Univ.t and use that trick
<companion_cube> ontologiae: look for mixtbl on github
<companion_cube> too late...
<ontologiae> funny, Martin usually have a solution for my problems ;-)
<ontologiae> So, I have to make one function by object
<ontologiae> hmmm
<companion_cube> you need to create a "key" per value type
<companion_cube> (btw I have a fork of this repo with slightly more functions ;)
<flux> can we implement that module in another way now that we will have the extensible sum types?
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<Drup> probably, yes
<Drup> by exposing a open type "key"
<flux> will the other way be better?-)
<Drup> I'm not sure about that :p
<companion_cube> maybe that thing can also be done with exceptions, actually
<Drup> well, if you use exceptions, you're better with open type.
<companion_cube> yes, I was thinking about pre-4.02 ocaml
<ontologiae> not very practical
<Drup> ontologiae: I looked at your example a bit more closely
<Drup> there is a big problem in your design
<Drup> let's look at the signature of find : (b,a) cons t -> int -> a
<ontologiae> yep
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<ontologiae> hmm I see
<ontologiae> Not sure that the good answer will be a
<Drup> here is the type of a list : (string * (int * unit)) t
<Drup> hum, that's not exactly this, it's more convoluted, with cons and nil
<Drup> (which are useless by the way, just use product)
<Drup> but anyway
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<Drup> the element you want to find might not be the first one
<ggole> They're useful if you want to hide a GADT behind a signature, aren't they?
<Drup> and according to this signature, find will return something of the type of the first one
<Drup> so, obviously, this can't be polymorphic as you want it
<Drup> ggole: meh, I think the simplicity is more desirable, in this case
<Drup> ontologiae: also, and in general, in the matter of type annotation for gadts
<Drup> you need type annotations only when you have something using multiple constructors and different types of your gadt
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<Drup> (hence why you don't need it for cons, cs, hd, tl, etc
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<ontologiae> I see
<ontologiae> So it's in impossible in this case
<ontologiae> s/in//
<Drup> you can't make a find with think kind of list, indeed
<Drup> (with gadts, at least)
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<Drup> this*
<ggole> Because you can't make one type argument polymorphic and the other not?
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<Drup> because you can't explore the type of the list to find the "right type" that the find is going to return
<ontologiae> ggole: I suppose you can't define a polymorphic argument for the result of the function which is not defined as argument
<ggole> Hmm, I think you could use a functor
<Drup> a functor would not help you, as I said, it's not a polymorphism issue.
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<Drup> well, maybe a functor + first class modules would be able to help you
<Drup> but eeeeeh
<Drup> I don't want to see this code, I really don't.
<ggole> I don't see how first-class modules affect it though
<ggole> (And this may be a different problem entirely.)
<Drup> ggole: by unpacking and repacking modules as list elements, to carry them around
<ggole> I think that's a different problem.
<ggole> This is just to get around the fact that GADT typing bitches that the list *element type* can't be returned because it is a GADT type variable, even though we don't want it to be
<ggole> That's my understanding, anyway.
<ontologiae> :-))
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<samebchase> companion_cube: Can you please take a look at this: https://github.com/c-cube/opam-repository/commit/035710a623f3624ef7dee190fff84f68a870b607#commitcomment-6255392 , Thanks.
<companion_cube> I just did
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<companion_cube> samebchase: where does your installation attempt fail?
<ggole> Never mind, I arsed it up. Polymorphism works fine.
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<samebchase> companion_cube: I'm trying to hunt down the exact error. I couldn't install it even after modifying those files.
<companion_cube> samebchase: honeslty I still can't install coq via opam, because it fails at the very end on a stupid .dvi file
<companion_cube> after 50 minutes spent compiling the stdlib
<samebchase> ah.
<samebchase> So even after removing those files, how do I get it to not look for "configure.patch" Is there some internal config that got rewritten?
<companion_cube> but the patch makes it possible to start compoiling on archlinux
<companion_cube> samebchase: .opam is full of archives and caches, so I never know
<samebchase> hm
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<philtor> whitequark: How would one use your ppx_protobuf? FIrst you have to install 4.02.0dev+trunk correct?
<philtor> (opam switch 4.02.0dev+trunk )
<philtor> ...but a lot of required packages seem to be broken in 4.02.0dev+trunk
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<avsm> gasche (or others): is there an easy way to disable camlp4 just for one file in ocamlbuild?
<avsm> this is using -with-ocamlfind, so spreading a _tags '-syntax' doesnt seem to help
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<gasche> avsm: you could use a different extension and implement your own build rule
<gasche> there are also negative tags that you can put in _tags
<gasche> (ah, I hadn't understood your second line)
<gasche> if you want to pass ocamlfind packages that require camlp4, and still prevent ocamlfind to do preprocessing, I don't see how you'll do it
<gasche> hm
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<gasche> I guess I'd need a simple reproduction setting to try out things
<gasche> (and understand the situation better)
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<jpdeplaix> avsm: you mean with oasis ?
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<jpdeplaix> (otherwise « -syntax(camlp4o) » or « -syntax_camlp4o » should work)
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<avsm> jpdeplaix: ah hrm, looks like the -tags on the command line overrides the _tags file
<whitequark> philtor: indeed
<whitequark> philtor: well, nothing required for ppx_protobuf is broken :)
<whitequark> what do you need?
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<philtor> whitequark: when I tried: opam install ppx_protobuf
<philtor> I get:
<philtor> The following actions will be performed:
<philtor> - install ppx_tools.pinned [required by ppx_protobuf]
<philtor> - install extlib-compat.1.6.1 [required by ppx_protobuf]
<philtor> - install ppx_protobuf.0.9.0
<philtor> ...
<philtor> [ERROR] The compilation of extlib-compat.1.6.1 failed.
<philtor> ### stderr ###
<philtor> # File "bitSet.ml", line 23, characters 40-53:
<philtor> # Warning 3: deprecated feature: String.create
<philtor> # File "bitSet.ml", line 28, characters 64-75:
<philtor> # Warning 3: deprecated feature: String.fill
<philtor> # make: camlp4of: Command not found
<philtor> # make: *** [extHashtbl.ml] Error 127
<Drup> yeah, dependencies are not yet correct on turnk
<Drup> you should install camlp4
<Drup> (and reinstall ocamlfind after that)
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<philtor> Drup: installing camlp4 fails
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<philtor> Though I'm not entirely sure what the error means:
<philtor> ### stderr ###
<philtor> # + echo camlp4/Camlp4.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Top.cmo camlp4/camlp4prof.byte camlp4/mkcamlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4fulllib.cma camlp4/camlp4boot.byte camlp4/camlp4boot.cma camlp4/camlp4r.byte camlp4/camlp4r.cma camlp4/camlp4rf.byte camlp4/camlp4rf.cma camlp4/camlp4o.byte camlp4/camlp4o.cma camlp4/camlp4of.byte camlp4/camlp4of.cma camlp4/camlp4oof.byte camlp4/camlp4oof.cma camlp4/camlp4orf.b...[truncated]
<philtor> # make: *** [byte] Error 10
<whitequark> philtor: hmm, can you post the complete opam output?
<Drup> philtor: pin the dev version or use jpdeplaix's opam overlay
<whitequark> Drup: no need to
<Drup> oh ,
<whitequark> camlp4 installs from regular opam-repository just fine for me
<whitequark> at least it did yesterday -_-
<Drup> ok
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<philtor> do I need camlp4 to install ppx_protobuf ?
<philtor> ===== ERROR while installing camlp4.9999 =====
<philtor> # opam-version 1.1.1
<philtor> # os linux
<philtor> # command make all
<philtor> # path /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/build/camlp4.9999
<philtor> # compiler 4.02.0dev+trunk
<philtor> # exit-code 2
<philtor> # env-file /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/build/camlp4.9999/camlp4-554-e7966f.env
<philtor> # stdout-file /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/build/camlp4.9999/camlp4-554-e7966f.out
<philtor> # stderr-file /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/build/camlp4.9999/camlp4-554-e7966f.err
<philtor> ### stdout ###
<philtor> # ...[truncated]
<philtor> # cp /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/lib/ocaml/compiler-libs/parsetree.cmi camlp4/import/parsetree.cmi
<philtor> # cp /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/lib/ocaml/compiler-libs/outcometree.cmi camlp4/import/outcometree.cmi
<philtor> # cp /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/lib/ocaml/compiler-libs/oprint.cmi camlp4/import/oprint.cmi
<philtor> # cp /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/lib/ocaml/compiler-libs/toploop.cmi camlp4/import/toploop.cmi
<philtor> # /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/bin/ocamlc.opt -c -g -w Z -I camlp4/import -warn-error A-3 -I camlp4/config -I camlp4 -o camlp4/config/Camlp4_config.cmi camlp4/config/Camlp4_config.mli
<philtor> # /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/bin/ocamlc.opt -c -g -w a -I camlp4/import -warn-error A-3 -I camlp4/config -I camlp4/boot -o camlp4/boot/Camlp4.cmo camlp4/boot/Camlp4.ml
<philtor> # + /home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/bin/ocamlc.opt -c -g -w a -I camlp4/import -warn-error A-3 -I camlp4/config -I camlp4/boot -o camlp4/boot/Camlp4.cmo camlp4/boot/Camlp4.ml
<philtor> # File "camlp4/boot/Camlp4.ml", line 14559, characters 27-36:
<philtor> # Error: Unbound module Bytes
<philtor> # Command exited with code 2.
<philtor> ### stderr ###
<philtor> # + echo camlp4/Camlp4.cmo camlp4/Camlp4Top.cmo camlp4/camlp4prof.byte camlp4/mkcamlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4.byte camlp4/camlp4fulllib.cma camlp4/camlp4boot.byte camlp4/camlp4boot.cma camlp4/camlp4r.byte camlp4/camlp4r.cma camlp4/camlp4rf.byte camlp4/camlp4rf.cma camlp4/camlp4o.byte camlp4/camlp4o.cma camlp4/camlp4of.byte camlp4/camlp4of.cma camlp4/camlp4oof.byte camlp4/camlp4oof.cma camlp4/camlp4orf.b...[truncated]
<philtor> # make: *** [byte] Erro
<whitequark> philtor: please use a pastebin.
<whitequark> otherwise, ppx_protobuf itself doesn't need camlp4, but OASIS does
<jpdeplaix> philtor: It seems that your ocaml version is not up-to-date
<jpdeplaix> You have to reinstall ocaml with « opam switch reinstall 4.02dev+trunk »
<philtor> ah, ok, I'll give that a try.
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<philtor> Ok, that helps. camlp4 now installed correctly.
<philtor> now I get an error about downgrading to ocamlfind.1.3.3
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<whitequark> that's odd
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<whitequark> I certainly require no such thing
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<philtor> I notice this: [WARNING] '/usr/local/bin/aspcud $in $out $pref' failed with Sys_error("Broken pipe")
<philtor> so I should probably give it another try
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<philtor> whitequark: Ok, that got a bit different result, now directly related to ppx_protobuf.
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<philtor> ...and pastebin seems to be down now.
<philtor> let me try putting the results into a gist on github
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<whitequark> way to go, silently break binary compatibility between minor versions :/
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<whitequark> and I believe it even was a documented feature of caml_alloc*
<whitequark> philtor: ok, that's easy
<whitequark> opam install oasis && opam pin ppx_protobuf git://github.com/whitequark/ocaml-ppx_protobuf && opam install ppx_protobuf
<whitequark> I'll release a new version soon™
<whitequark> gasche: combined with the fact that ocaml doesn't export its version *anywhere* in the headers...
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<ggole> Why Val_unit instead of 0?
<ggole> Cheaper to scan?
<philtor> ack! Now the compliation of type_conv fails... I'm starting to think it's just too early to play with this stuff o_0
<whitequark> GC, presumably
<whitequark> ggole: I believe before this change, you had to ensure that nothing executes between alloc and the moment where all fields are set
* whitequark sighs
<ggole> Oh, I see.
<philtor> the problem seems to be:
<philtor> # ocamlfind: Package `camlp4.extend' not found
<philtor> # E: Cannot find findlib package camlp4.extend
<philtor> # E: Cannot find findlib package camlp4.quotatio
<philtor> # W: Field 'pkg_camlp4_extend' is not set: Command ''/home/phil/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/bin/ocamlfind' query -format %d camlp4.extend > '/tmp/oasis-16fd9d.txt'' terminated with error code 2
<philtor> (missing 'ns' at the end)
<whitequark> philtor: opam reinstall ocamlfind
<whitequark> it's... contrived
<whitequark> things are being done to make it not contrived.
<philtor> ok. And then: $ opam install oasis && opam pin ppx_protobuf git://github.com/whitequark/ocaml-ppx_protobuf && opam install ppx_protobuf
<philtor> ?
<whitequark> yes
<philtor> <crossing fingers>
<whitequark> when I'll make a release, there will be no dependency on oasis or camlp4
<whitequark> but I want to be more certain that it works well, before that
<whitequark> and for that I need to actually use it in real code, which is blocked by a multitude of other issues
<whitequark> yak shaving lvl 99
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<philtor> getting closer... but:
<philtor> Installing oasis.9999.
<philtor> [ERROR] Package ppx_protobuf is already pinned to git://github.com/whitequark/ocaml-ppx_protobuf.
<whitequark> pin -f
<whitequark> oh, nevermind
<whitequark> it's already there, then
<whitequark> just remove the pin command
<philtor> unpin?
<whitequark> nonono
<whitequark> don't execute ocaml pin. just opam install oasis ppx_protobuf
<philtor> I'm assuming it's complaining about the earlier: $ opam pin ppx_tools https://github.com/alainfrisch/ppx_tools.git
<whitequark> no, it's not
<philtor> ok. I did: opam install oasis ppx_protobuf
<philtor> and that seems to have worked
<philtor> \o/
<whitequark> excellent
<whitequark> now install a pinned version of utop :P
<philtor> pinned version?
<whitequark> opam pin utop git://github.com/diml/utop && opam install utop
<philtor> command?
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<philtor> giving it a go...
<whitequark> then do: utop; #ppx "ppx_protobuf";; #require "protobuf";; type foo = int [@@protobuf];;
<whitequark> findlib isn't yet able to load ppx extensions...
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<philtor> ok, utop installed.
<philtor> hmm... seems to be stuck at: type foo = = int [@@protobuf];;
<philtor> utop just kind of hung there.
<philtor> Not getting a prompt.
<whitequark> did you really use "type foo = = int" ?
<whitequark> with two equality signs?
<philtor> (on the positive side, the #ppx ... and #require "protobuf" worked.
<philtor> no:
<philtor> utop # type foo = int [@@protobuf];;
<whitequark> that's odd
<philtor> just hangs there
<whitequark> it worked for me
<whitequark> kill it and try again?
<philtor> Hmm.. is there anyway to get a stacktrace on utop?
<philtor> Yeah, I killed it and tried again.
<whitequark> what's your OS?
<philtor> Linux. Fedora 20
<whitequark> hmm, sounds fine
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<philtor> $ uname -a
<philtor> Linux quad.ftrdhcpuser.net 3.8.8-203.fc18.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Apr 24 13:12:26 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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<whitequark> practically identical to my system, yeah
<whitequark> try it in regular toplevel
<whitequark> ocaml -ppx ppx_protobuf -dsource; #use "topfind";; #require "protobuf";; type foo = int [@@protobuf];;
<whitequark> paste all of the output
<jpdeplaix> whitequark: if you have the time, can you ping for my email to llvm-commits ?
<whitequark> jpdeplaix: I need chapuni64, and he's apparently on vacation or something
<philtor> whitequark: oh, interesting... it seems my ocaml toplevel is broke.
<philtor> if I just do:
<philtor> $ocaml
<philtor> # let foo = "bar" ;;
<philtor> it hangs as well.
<whitequark> wow
* whitequark sighs
<philtor> oh, wait a sec...
<philtor> that's the wrong ocaml I'm getting.
<philtor> $ which ocaml
<philtor> ~/.opam/4.02.0dev+trunk/bin/ocaml
<philtor> <- ok that seems right
<philtor> but then...
<philtor> $ ocaml
<philtor> OCaml version 4.02.0+dev5-2014-04-29
<jpdeplaix> whitequark: ok, no problems
<whitequark> does the same thing for me
<whitequark> I guess it has the date hardcoded
<philtor> well, that may be correct then.
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<philtor> yeah, toplevel definitely seems to be broken.
<philtor> hmm... reinstall?
<philtor> Well, gotta run. I'll have to give this a try again later.
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<krono> hey
<companion_cube> ho
<krono> lets go
<krono> Ok, I have a question on terminology
<krono> From what I know, the lisp-y languages call thinks like x::xs / (cons x xs) cons _cells_
<Drup> yep, it's called the same in ocaml
<krono> Viewed a bit more abstract, :: is nearly the same as “type 'a lst = Nil | Cons of 'a * 'a lst ;;”
<krono> would Cons (x, xs) still be called a cell?
<Drup> you can remove the "nearly"
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<krono> and if so, would this “cell” name still hold for n-ary types?
<krono> (it is only about finding a good name for 'instances' of a composite type)
<krono> it is straightforward for cons-cells with “cell” but I haven’t heard of a common terminology for the general concept
<companion_cube> n-ary types?
<krono> ie, “type … … of 'a * 'b * 'c ……… * 'n;;”
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<krono> I’m talking riddles, right?
<ggole> Perhaps a better name is 'block'
<ggole> Lisp conses are a bit different to OCaml lists, too
<ggole> They're more like a pair of lisp values
<ggole> Something like type lisp_value = Int of int | Symbol of symbol | <other atoms here> | Cons of lisp_value * lisp_value
<Drup> "cell" is usually used for stuff like "the value + the pointer to the next bit of the data structure"
<krono> oh, ok
<krono> I thought of “data structure instances” but this sounds too OO to talk about algebraic types
<Drup> if you want to talk about the stuff inside the data structure, well, they are just elements
<krono> no, not inside, the thing itself
<Drup> well, if it's the thing itself, call it a thing :D
<krono> That’s a bit tough in academic papers :D
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<ggole> "object" maybe
<ggole> That's vague enough
<ggole> It's basically "thing" but you sound smarter
<krono> yes, maybe, but it has this OO connotation I want to avoid, currently
<Drup> krono: I mean, if you use a thing of type list, well, call it a list.
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<krono> And for a tree, call it tree, right.
<Drup> :D
<Drup> object works
<Drup> inhabitant of a type, is the very technical term
<krono> pom pom pom
<Drup> but it's usually used in proof theory
<ggole> I think if you are explicitly discussing representation object is reasonable
<krono> yes, this seems reasonable
<ggole> Or "value", if it doesn't happen to matter whether it is a block-structured thingy or an immediate thingy
<krono> well, _that_ does matter a lot for me, so I would have to skip value today
<ggole> Right.
<krono> Do you know of hand some paper that deals with the representation of “instances/objects of types” in OCaml/CamlLight? (I mean, beside the ZINC paper)
<ggole> The manual has a page on interfacing with C that has a lot of details
<ggole> And real world ocaml spends some time on it
<krono> That sounds like a start
<krono> oi, nice.
<Drup> and yes, the chapter from rwo about object representation
<krono> Thank you, Drup and ggole
* krono apparently has things to read
<krono> I found it already, but thanks
<krono> :D
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<tautologico> developing applications with Objective Caml also has some material on it
<krono> thanks
<Drup> as much as I like this one, it's quite outdated
<krono> well, I want to talk about the concept in general, so I am not limited to current ocaml ;)
<krono> I seek for general terminology that fits “ML-like languages”
<krono> (wich, of course includes OCaml, but also SML)
<ggole> There's no one representation for ML-like languages though
<tautologico> different compilers may use very different representations
<krono> Clearly.
<ggole> And do, in practice
<krono> I do not doubt that
<ggole> There's a large difference in how OCaml and MLton do things
<tautologico> even for compiled code... MLton does monomorphization everywhere
<krono> I just seek for a name :)
<krono> If I write “let x = Cons (1, Cons (2, Nil))”, what is “x” (as opposed when I write “let x = 1”)
<krono> what kind of thing
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<krono> I probably will go with “object” or “instance of the data structure lst”
<ggole> Maybe "constructor", although constructor seems to usually refer to the name/type rather than the actual representation
<krono> yes, thats my problem
<ggole> ie You apply a (non-nullary) constructor to get a structured object
<krono> it is the same for “data structure”
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<ggole> The constructor is the thing you apply, not the thing you construct.
<krono> “structured object” sounds close
<tautologico> in the abstract it's just an "object" or "a list"
<krono> mini-poll: what sounds less OO: “object” or “instance”?
<ggole> object
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<tautologico> the emphasis on immutable objects in functional programming means we spend less time thinking about specific (memory) instances
<tautologico> aliasing is not a problem if the objects are immutable
<krono> tautologico: hehe. This is a thing I am actually writing about
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<krono> Thanks again, y'all
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<whitequark> gasche: well, to be fair to SF, that wasn't an exercise
<whitequark> or rather, SF didn't ask me to prove correctness :)
<whitequark> there's probably something I don't yet know
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<whitequark> is there no function val concat : bytes -> bytes -> bytes ?
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<philtor> whitequark: I just installed 4.02.0dev+trunk on another linux box and have the same issue with ocaml toplevel just hanging.
<whitequark> philtor: perhaps it's just broken in the very trunk
<whitequark> I have a version a few days old
<philtor> yep, I'm guessing it's broken today.
<philtor> I'll try again in a day or two.
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<whitequark> seems like a9cc0281 might be responsible
<whitequark> let me check
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<whitequark> how do I use if ocaml_version in _oasis?
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