ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<struk> vbmithr: based on my trials and tribulations, I am favoring plplot (until I decide to run a http server at least and do some sort of js solution)
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<mahem1> Hey all, so I am thinking of converting a game project I've written in Javascript (using processing.js) to OCaml. (Just for fun really.)
<mahem1> My current plan of attack we to put all of the logic in the OCaml side and just display stuff using javascript is processing.
<mahem1> Just wanted to know if anyone knew of a better way to do this.
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* chinglish ame
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<mcc> Hey whitequark, what is that document you showed me once with the Unicode body's recommendations for handling identifiers in a programming language?
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<mcc> whitequark: UAX #31?
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<whitequark> I think so
<whitequark> eh, she quit...
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<vbmithr> struk|work: ok, interesting.
<vbmithr> struk|work: I had a look at it but prefered to go for something more standard
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<vbmithr> mahem1: http://www.is.ocha.ac.jp/~asai/Universe/ have a look
<vbmithr> mahem1: or use SDL: http://erratique.ch/software/tsdl/doc/Tsdl
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<gasche> whitequark: I don't understand your time-frame for PR#6642 (the $CAMLORIGIN stuff)
<gasche> what good would it do to have the patch merged in trunk/4.02 if LLVM branches tomorrow, given that OCaml probably wouldn't have an actual release in time?
<whitequark> gasche: 3.6 is branched tomorrow, but the actual release is at least a few weeks after now
<whitequark> and as I understand 4.02.2 has a similar timeframe
<Leonidas> oh, that's good to know
<whitequark> gasche: I've merged the changes to use $CAMLORIGIN into LLVM just now.
<whitequark> for now, they do nothing (and also will do nothing on pre-4.02 anyway)
<Drup> (11:14:59) whitequark: 3.6 is branched tomorrow, <- aaah, the whole C export to OCaml is not merged T__T
<whitequark> yeeeep
<Drup> hit people, merge it plz :(
<whitequark> I've told you to do it earlier
<whitequark> hm? what do you mean?
<Drup> your stuff.
<whitequark> there is no ready patch to merge
<whitequark> if there was one, I'd just commit it
<Drup> you have a big patch in review since forever
<whitequark> it's not "in review", it needs to be reworked and split
<whitequark> and I have no time for that
<whitequark> http://reviews.llvm.org/D2176, is it?
<Drup> why does it need to be reworked except for easy reviewed ?
<Drup> reviewing*
<companion_cube> is there any chance the stdlib will some day provide a way to expose private types?
<companion_cube> if I want to extend Buffer.t, I'd like some module BufferUnsafe, that exposes the type Buffer.t
<whitequark> Drup: at least, to keep history and git-blame reasonable
<companion_cube> o/ everyone
<Drup> whitequark: what ?
<whitequark> atomic commits
<whitequark> it moves some things around and also adds many unrelated functions at same time
<whitequark> and modifies a few
<whitequark> anyway, that's a lesser concern. the worse one is that OCaml bindings don't export any of that anyway
<whitequark> if you write those bindings in the next few days, I'll get it cherry-picked to 3.6 branch
<Drup> grmbl, I have tons of stuff to do already x_x
<whitequark> then just let it slip
<whitequark> with the $CAMLORIGIN changes, it should be easy to just use opam pinning to llvm trunk, I think
<whitequark> oh that reminds me, I should get jpdeplaix's patches in
<Drup> annoying to let it slip, though, it would mean it delays full llvm ast in OCaml for next year again.
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<Drup> whitequark: so the real reason is not commit mixing but rather that the OCaml part is lacking, right.
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<whitequark> commit mixing needs to be resolved but it is fairly minor
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<Drup> right
<whitequark> since it wasn't, that patch is still hung in review instead of being applied
<whitequark> but even if it was applied, it would be of no use for you
<whitequark> as-is
<Drup> yeah
<whitequark> this patch is unnecessary
<whitequark> you can just do `make all`
<whitequark> this is literally what `make all` does
<gasche> So when we write about “likable” or “relatable” characters on TV engaging in that casual, everyday racism we all struggle with/against, people fall all over themselves to justify the behavior and claim it isn’t racist. Because if it was racist, then the character is officially A BAD PERSON and if you like that character then you are A BAD PERSON because only BAD PEOPLE participate in racism. And instead of interrogating why that is (why does rac
<adrien> gasche: too long
<gasche> hm
<gasche> that was a random internet quote :D
<adrien> err wat
<adrien> yeah, was going to say ECHAN :D
<gasche> my middle-click button playing tricks
<adrien> was trying to find context in the backlog though
<gasche> I was trying to quote whitequark
<def`> :DDD
<gasche> whitequark: I don't know why you think there would be a minor release in a few weeks, I haven't heard about this -- but then I am quite busy with other things
<gasche> (there's an implicit question: did anyone announce something of that effect?)
<whitequark> gasche: it doesn't matter if it's in a few weeks or not, I just want it earlier than 4.03
<whitequark> whenever 4.02 is released is fine.
<whitequark> *4.02.2
<whitequark> distros will take ages to pick up everything anyway, so it should be done by then
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<whitequark> ... actually, given the clusterfuck with ctypes integration, it looks likely that one more llvm/ocaml release cycle will have to pass until packages are usable at all
<gasche> how does your code check to behave reasonably if the patch isn't applied?
<companion_cube> a minor release of ocaml? why so?
<adrien> 4.02.2 is unlikely to end up in distros anyway
<adrien> 4.03 will probably be the one in use
<gasche> companion_cube: Damien mentioned he might do this, but I don't have much information
<companion_cube> gasche: no opinion about exporting the type of Buffer.t explicitely somewhere, btw? :)
<companion_cube> (happy new year)
<gasche> thanks
<whitequark> gasche: it simply passes -L$CAMLORIGIN/.. if OCaml is too old
<adrien> except if upstream clearly says that 4.03.0 might be a rough release and that distros seeking stability are better off with 4.02.2
<gasche> it is my moral duty not to have any opinion about OCaml-related matter until the LICS deadline passes
<def`> ;')
<whitequark> gasche: I don't anticipate that being a problem. it's just one more (nonexistent) directory to search in
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<whitequark> ... I'd add a version check, but LLVM has a particularly hostile autoconf version policy, and I'm not spending a whole working day just adding that check, so, I didn't
<Drup> gasche: LICS ?
<gasche> I might still commit whitequark's patch if it is urgent
<whitequark> gasche: oh, some more context. $CAMLORIGIN is only necessary for OPAM
<whitequark> since a system installation is already present in the default library search path
<whitequark> so actually it doesn't matter when or if distros pick 4.02.2 up, I just realized.
<gasche> but you still would need this patch applied before tomorrow
<whitequark> you have about two weeks to decide if it goes in with this exact public interface or not
<whitequark> if it turns out that the interface must be changed, I will revert it in 3.6 branch
<whitequark> if the interface will not be changed, it is not important when exactly it is applied
<Drup> gasche: what is LICS ?
<gasche> a computer science conference
<gasche> fairly theoretical
<gasche> (it's for stuff that is not-applicable-enough for POPL)
<gasche> I'm trying to get a paper on time on a collaboration with Guillaume Munch-Maccagnoni
<Drup> Yeah, I guessed it was a conference and that It was fairly theoretical, given that you are doing a paper for it :D
<ia0> BTW gasche + companion_cube, I will be at place d'italie this friday morning. I have a meeting from 10am to 1pm
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<companion_cube> \o/ ia0
<ia0> :-)
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<jpdeplaix> whitequark: I did that because « make » also complies the documentation
<whitequark> jpdeplaix: yes, but make all doesn't
<jpdeplaix> ok, then it's unnecessary. I'll remove it
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<whitequark> don't bother, I've already updated the script
<whitequark> also did some other fixes, I'll upload it soon
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<ingsoc> is js_of_ocaml applicable to use for general purpose single page web applications. Anyone know of whether it plays well with angularjs or react ?
<jpdeplaix> cool, thanks ! :)
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<Kakadu> ingsoc: I don't know but if you try I will be interesting in results
<Kakadu> ingsoc: AFAIR many javascript libraries use a lot of templates to generate HTML and I don't think that it suits js_of_ocaml well enought. (because templates are poor's man high order functions, IMHO)
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<ingsoc> Kakadu: It was just the libs on the OCSIGEN website seem quite ambitious in their claims but there doesn't seem to be much info out in the wild. I am wondering if js_of_ocaml is intending to be competing in the same realm as clojurescript is with regards to being a feature complete alternative to raw JS
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<Kakadu> Info is low because ocsigen project have some problems with documentation.
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<gasche> ingsoc: some people prefer to bind JS libraries and call them from their js_of_ocaml compiled OCaml programs
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<gasche> some people prefer to bind the interesting OCaml functions they wrote and write a pure-JS (or Typescript of whatever) frontend
<gasche> I suspect the latter is the easiest way in if you're trying to interact with a large existing JS library that has many JS examples lying around
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<ingsoc> gasche: so top level structure and skeleton is in traditional JS (for compatibility and ease of integration ?) and then they write the more guts of business logic in ocaml ?
<gasche> (just as we sometime advise people that want to develop a GUI to do it in another language, interacting with the core application through a socket layer)
<gasche> yes
<ingsoc> what does js_of_ocaml specifically bring. will type inference and safety and all that goodness still be available/useful ?
<ingsoc> and also what do you mean by "bind" to make them available
<flux> I haven't really use js_of_ocaml, but I believe the idea is pretty much the same how you 'bind' c libraries to ocaml
<ingsoc> gasche: the LWT lib sounds interesting for making async operations less of a headache too
<flux> if you make mistakes in this the results are much less severe than when making mistakes when writing c bindings :)
<flux> but yes, if you use js_of_ocaml you have type inference and type safety etc. but that doesn't help with pure javascript code. you need to carefully write something that tells what the types in the javascript core are. then it works with the rest of the type system.
<flux> I understand there is some unsafe mechanism for doing javascript calls in js_of_ocaml.. but I don't really know more about that :)
<gasche> one example I know about is the Mezzo web front-end
<gasche> (Mezzo is a research programming language that one can try from the browser; the prototype is implemented in OCaml and eg. the type-checking is performed client-side thanks to js_of_ocaml)
<gasche> see eg.:
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<gasche> ( the running webpage is http://gallium.inria.fr/~protzenk/mezzo-web/ )
<gasche> the backend logic is many lines of OCaml code, and the frontend is actually a mix of pure-JS calling functions compiled from OCaml ( ui.js ) and OCaml code interacting with JS libraries ( mezzoweb.ml )
<whitequark> now any usage of ocamlc/ocamlc -custom/ocamlopt works without any additional ccopts or env variable changes
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<Leonidas> compiling merlin fails if you have $OCAMLC set. I kinda wonder whether I should adjust the OPAM repo to specifically unset it. Any thoughts?
<whitequark> this sounds like a merlin bug.
<Leonidas> I kinda dislike that the build might fail due to random variables being set
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<def`> it uses OCamlMakefile
<companion_cube> gasche: who do I have to corrupt to get https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/129/ merged?
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<Leonidas> yep, I just found the offending line.
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<Drup> the mezzo front end is a very poor base to reproduce
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<gasche> feel free to provide better role models
<Drup> Jonathan did it that way because he has his own very strong ideas on how to code the front end and consider that ocsigen did not fit them (whatever this is true or not is left to further debate)
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<Leonidas> actually, I am kinda surprised it fails, since it usually sets OCAMLC to 'ocamlc' and setting it to 'ocamlfind c' instead should be compatible.
<fds> This is a kind of silly complaint, but (AFAICT) the README file distributed with the OCaml source code has a dead link to https://sympa-roc.inria.fr/wws/info/caml-list.
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<Drup> gasche: you accused me of FUD the other day and I'm a bit annoyed to see you do it :)
<Leonidas> fds: yep, you're right.
<def`> Leonidas: if you list offendung variables I'll merge, otherwise
<def`> the problem is that unix model is turning into a pile of crap
<Leonidas> yep
<gasche> I'm just providing an example I know of separation between the javascript and OCaml logic in a web front-end
<def`> garbage in env, garbage in output, that's a correct behavior
<Leonidas> as far as I see these are OCAMLC, OPCAMLOPT, OCAMLDEP, OCAMLMKTOP, OCAMLCP OCAMLLEX, OCAMLYACC, OCAMLMKLIB
<def`> (and for deterministic build, turn to nix :)... Is is the responsibility of opam to cleanup the env ?!)
<Leonidas> def`: export OCAMLC='ocamlfind c' is not *exactly* garbage
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<Leonidas> I am not sure whose resposibility it is.
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<def`> Leonidas: it's a small lie, nothing harmful at first :)
<def`> I'll clean that
<Leonidas> def`: thank you!
<Leonidas> overall, I believe OPAM should clean the environment.
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<endiruna1> how can I specify a function in a match case? i have tried to do things like | pattern -> function = if x then something else somethingElse but does not work
<MercurialAlchemi> match foo with | bar -> fun x -> ...
<MercurialAlchemi> fun arg1 arg2 ... -> (* body *)
<MercurialAlchemi> is the syntax for anonymous functions
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<ggole> function is fine too, just parenthesize
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<endiruna1> thanks MercurialAlchemi !
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<MercurialAlchemi> ggole: parentheses or not, 'function =' is not going to cut it...
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<ggole> It's no different to fun, except you have to use parens.
<MercurialAlchemi> ggole: well, yes, which means you need parameters and '->' instead of '=' :)
<def`> out of curiosity, did any of you ever felt the need for less verbose anonymous function syntax? especially for delaying effects, like when one write fun () -> …
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<MercurialAlchemi> I have a Java background, I don't know what 'less verbose' means in this context
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<MercurialAlchemi> (more seriously, it's not more verbose than Python)
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<MercurialAlchemi> (or Perl)
<thizanne> def`: I did, but I wasn't sure about what syntax I'd like
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<def`> (well, I am not asking relatively to the atrocious state of computing :')
<def`> (I am well aware of the disaster)
<MercurialAlchemi> I guess we could have 'x -> foo' but it would look damn weird with multiple parameters
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<def`> MercurialAlchemi: it would quickly become ambiguous
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<def`> (I have a patch with these syntaxes)
<MercurialAlchemi> I can live with typing three letters and a space
<MercurialAlchemi> and it's fun
<MercurialAlchemi> (I can make terrible puns too)
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<Leonidas> def`: yes, I often find myself missing \ from haskell at least
<MercurialAlchemi> I don't like \
<MercurialAlchemi> death to ASCII
<def`> "fun ident -> body" ~ "ident -> body", "fun () -> body" ~ (-> body), and "(| a -> b | c -> d)" ~ "function a -> b | c -> d"
<thizanne> I would like to have something like `myfun _ otherparameter`, expanded to fun x -> myfun x otherparameter
<thizanne> but again, it's ambiguous too
<def`> yep, I also have that in a branch
<def`> not syntactically
<def`> whereas MercurialAlchemi suggestion isn't LR(_)
<def`> with _, it's unclear where one wants to put the lambda
<Leonidas> clojusre does #(expr) and has % for the value
<Leonidas> #(% + 1) e.g.
<vanila> whats the point in only savinglike 3 characters?
<def`> gasch'e suggested using (\ _ + 1) also
<Leonidas> that looks good to me
<def`> vanila: especially in monadic code, there is often more noise than actual code
<MercurialAlchemi> I'd rather save on parentheses
<vanila> what about adding do notation with a macro then?
<thizanne> I like (\ _ + 1)
<Leonidas> that too, but I don't see how to get rid of the parentheses.
<thizanne> Most often I have these parentheses anyway
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<def`> but I was just curious of other opinions on the matter, I don't think it's a good idea to change ocaml syntax (do notation with ppx is better than nothing)
<vanila> well my view is that this sort of thing is not an improvement
<vanila> look at arc vs scheme
<ggole> def`: occasionally I wouldn't mind sections
<ggole> I don't think it's that big a deal though
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<def`> ggole: héhé, I had those too in a branch (as well as a never finished one with haskell-like custom precedences… That's a really bad idea :D)
<ggole> Some easy cases are already possible with simple partial application anyway
<ggole> ((+) 1)
<def`> yep
<ggole> But not ((<) 1)
<ggole> (That "works" but is confusing.)
<def`> (Yep)
<def`> But I am a bit mixed about partial applications
<vanila> maybe just define less y x = x < y
<vanila> then you can og less 1
<thizanne> it also doesn't work with stuff like Map.add where your parameter is not the last one
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<def`> (that is having non-generalized type variables in the middle of code can bite you)
<def`> yep, I agree with vanila. Just naming small functions makes code much clearer
<def`> altough I would like a "where" construct for these :')
<ggole> I'm happy enough with let, I think
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: ugh, no (to your where suggestion)
<ggole> I'd rather have some fancier stuff like abstraction over constructors
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: my main concern is that with let alone, you have to polute code with auxiliary definitions
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: bof
<ggole> Whereas with where you "enhance" code with auxiliary definitions? :)
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: you just write auxiliary functions in the scope of a larger function with 'let'
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<def`> I would like to add a where construct restricted to syntactic values (that is side-effect free), to first 1. isolate those auxiliary definition 2. make it easier to read by enforcing pure code
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: uh
<ggole> I think you can get most of the benefit with a bit of thoughtfully applied whitespace
<MercurialAlchemi> having to read up and down to figure out what the hell is going on because people think using both let and where in Haskell most definitely doesn't help _me_ read code
<MercurialAlchemi> (think using both let and where is a good idea, that is)
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: of course, features can be abused and misused
<MercurialAlchemi> well, it's like feet and guns
<vanila> i kinda of like the strict structure that only have let makes you do :D
<def`> but when appropriate, I much prefer having the choice
<vanila> ocaml is cool
<MercurialAlchemi> the less guns you make available in your language, the less mangled feet you will get
<def`> that's true
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<MercurialAlchemi> I'm not against do-syntax, though I would like it to make clear what monad is applied
<def`> it's time for me to do some scala. Give me 2 hours, and I'll come back crying that they managed to fuck up everything and will be happy having nothing but lets
<MercurialAlchemi> hahaha
<MercurialAlchemi> you'll still be compiling in two hours
<def`> :D
<vanila> what if its polymorphic in the monad or is that not possible in ocaml?
<vanila> I guess it coudl be done with modules
<def`> vanila: possible, a bit verbose
<def`> might get easier with implicits
<vanila> im scared of anything implicit
<def`> (the problem is that you need higher kinded types to be polymorphic in the monad without too much hack)
<Leonidas> you can get your 'where' if you like camlp4, there's an pa_ for that
<MercurialAlchemi> in this case it's more a case of 'implicits are better than no implicits' rather than 'explicit is better than implicit'
<def`> I hate camlp4… I am just thinking out loud :)
<MercurialAlchemi> Leonidas: does anybody like camlp4?
<vanila> hey I was wondering about the ocaml bytecode
<Leonidas> MercurialAlchemi: ;-)
<vanila> is it the 'best' bytecode for ocaml? And what is it only used by ocaml?
<vanila> there's other bytecodes too like JVM and scheme48
<def`> vanila: implicits are verbose enough that we should be able to avoid most misuses and limit them to useful case :D
<vanila> I see :)
<Leonidas> isn't the bytecode going to change, if flambda gets merged?
<Leonidas> I remember there was some discussion on it
<def`> flambda happens after the bytecode
<def`> if I am not wrong
<def`> parsetree -> typedtree -> lambda -> bytecode
<def`> parsetree -> typedtree -> lambda -> flamba -> clambda -> cmm -> …
<MercurialAlchemi> flambda?
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: a new IR for the compiler to do optimizations
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<MercurialAlchemi> oh
<MercurialAlchemi> well, I won't say no to optimization
<MercurialAlchemi> though I'd rather see more tooling
<Leonidas> def`: I meant https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/132#issuecomment-68752481, the fourth dot.
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<Leonidas> MercurialAlchemi: Merlin! :D
<def`> Leonidas: ah, right. That would be nice
<def`> Leonidas: not that this doesn't imply changing the bytecode
<MercurialAlchemi> Leonidas: I was thinking remote debugger working with native code
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: gdb, one day
<Leonidas> MercurialAlchemi: I'd wish the debugger would even work with bytecode. today it just crashed on me printing some value.
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<def`> (about merlin, there is a lot of things going on, but if you have suggestions, wishes are welcome)
<def`> (also, I hope you reported the crash on value printing, otherwise you'll never get a fix :D)
<Leonidas> def`: oh, it doesn't? So it just does modifications on the instructions and does not add new ones? Must've misunderstood.
<MercurialAlchemi> I need to try ocaml-debug one day, just for laughs
<def`> Leonidas: yep, it's more about generating smarter code than changing the format
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<Leonidas> def`: ehh, no. The codebase to reproduce it is kinda huge :< But I'm reporting things all the time as I go along :)
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: well, apart from releasing ppx compatibility... I don't know, it's just good
<Leonidas> :TypeOf changed my life, especially after I mapped it to ,t
<Leonidas> MercurialAlchemi: it is not that bad actually
<MercurialAlchemi> maybe an automatic rename function
<Leonidas> MercurialAlchemi: there is a rename function :p
<MercurialAlchemi> well, move and rename
<MercurialAlchemi> crap
<Leonidas> in 2.1.0
<MercurialAlchemi> well, I guess it shows how often I use this kind of thing in practice :D
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: it has been released yesterday… We are preparing the announce. I guess
<MercurialAlchemi> oh
<MercurialAlchemi> I see 'opam update' in my near future
<Leonidas> def`: I'd love if it was able to infer B&S lines from ocamlbuild
<def`> Leonidas: … could be done by adding a "meta" .merlin rule to ocamlbuild
<Leonidas> sounds good
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<def`> we don't want to deal with all build systems around… There is a jenga rule for .merlin, the same could be nice for ocamlbuild (… and maybe should have been done :))
<def`> ok, got to go. see ya
<Leonidas> sure, I understand.
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<Drup> pippijn: how feasible is it to take the code generator of dreml and use it for sedlex ?
<Drup> "All features have been implemented except for code generation, which is required to run a lexer specification." Ah. :D
<Drup> that's the part I'm interested in x)
<pippijn> Drup: :)
<pippijn> sorry
<Drup> pippijn: so currently, you only have the automaton ?
<pippijn> yes, interpreted
<Drup> ok
<Drup> maybe that's not so bad.
<pippijn> I'm doing entirely different things now
<pippijn> nothing related to language processing
<Drup> yes, I know
<pippijn> so I can't really help with the code generation part
<Drup> I will have to think about it
<Drup> I'm pretty sure sedlex could be greatly improved with your work, but I don't have much time to allocate for that.
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<Drup> pippijn: are you still looking at other related works or not at all anymore ?
<pippijn> I'm not looking at language processing at all at the moment
<pippijn> I'm looking at networking and security
<Drup> ok
<pippijn> I didn't lose interest, though
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<pippijn> I'll be back at some point
<Drup> right :)
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<Drup> pippijn: would unicode support changes a lot of things ?
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<pippijn> Drup: not at all
<Drup> right.
<pippijn> Drup: it would not change anything
<pippijn> there are several ways to implement it
<pippijn> the way I envision wouldn't change anything
<pippijn> there is some work on unicode using character classes
<pippijn> that's interesting, and it would change some things
<Drup> like ?
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<pippijn> it would probably make the construction a bit faster
<pippijn> 4.2
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<pippijn> it would probably make the automaton slower
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<pippijn> because the automaton currently trades memory for speed
<Drup> I see
<pippijn> by allocating arrays of size 256
<pippijn> for the transitions
<Drup> ocaml-re does that
<pippijn> that would no longer work when you have a large alphabet
<Drup> too
<Drup> indeed
<pippijn> with code generation, you can simply have a match input_sym with | 0x263a -> transition or return | ...
<pippijn> with an interpreter, you need a map
<Drup> yes, that's what I was thinking.
<pippijn> so I actually don't want to do it that way
<Drup> I'm only interested in the code gen way =)
<pippijn> maybe it's feasible then
<pippijn> but still far less efficient than my way, I think
<pippijn> because you'd be iterating over int arrays
<pippijn> so you first need to convert your utf-8 input to unicode codepoints (int array)
<Drup> We already do that in sedlex anyway
<pippijn> I think it's better to just generate utf-8 automata
<pippijn> or utf-16 automata (operating on byte arrays containing utf-16)
<pippijn> or utf-32
<pippijn> still byte arrays
<pippijn> my ucslib module operates on byte arrays containing any encoding
<Drup> in sedlex, the codegen is encoding-independent
<pippijn> there is something to be said for that, yes
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<Drup> you just recieve the series of codepoints
<pippijn> yeah, but
<pippijn> most of your input will be utf-8
<Drup> yeah
<pippijn> if it's not, you can convert it (expensive)
<pippijn> if you convert it always, you always have an expensive step preceding the lexing
<Drup> (except that if you compile to javascript, utf16 is going to be the native)
<pippijn> ah
<Drup> (and then, everything is going to suck.)
<pippijn> you're doing javascript
<Drup> I'm not doing javascript
<pippijn> if you're doing javascript, everything is going to suck anyway
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<Drup> I'm keeping my code multi-plateform :D
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<Drup> (on the OCaml sens of it :D)
<pippijn> it's going to suck with code points, too
<pippijn> if you're not operating on the target's native string format, things are going to suck
<Drup> anyway, I'm not sure it's something I want to change. allowing the user to change the underlying primitives and using weird encoding if it pleases him is a feature in sedlex
<Drup> (I know whitequark did weird stuff with that)
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<pippijn> yeah
<Drup> (I don't know the details, and I'm not sure I want :D)
<pippijn> makes sense
<Drup> anyway
<whitequark> Drup: I didn't change the *encoding*
<whitequark> rather I wanted counting bytes, because the ocaml toplevel deals in byte offsets
<Drup> but you changed the underlying primitives :p
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<pippijn> if you're counting bytes, then the utf-8 lexer will do exactly the right thing
<pippijn> without you changing primitives
<Drup> right ok, the automaton could have been encoding-aware, it wouldn't have changed anything for you.
<Drup> fair enough.
<whitequark> pippijn: not in case of sedlex, it only returns codepoints
<pippijn> whitequark: I'm not talking about sedlex (in its current form)
<pippijn> generating code for DFA is much easier than for NFA
<Drup> obviously.
<pippijn> the interpreter simply keeps parallel states
<vanila> is DFA more efficnet than a NFA with stack?
<pippijn> vanila: NFA with stack?
<vanila> for backtracking
<pippijn> that's not an NFA then
<pippijn> backtracking is extremely inefficient
<pippijn> NFAs execute everything in parallel
<pippijn> processing each character only once
<pippijn> backtracking is in a whole different runtime complexity class
<Drup> we don't need backtracking for regexp anyway.
<Drup> it's only for pcre
<pippijn> right
<Drup> and fuck that
<Drup> =')
<pippijn> it's for things like backreferences
<pippijn> and choices based on code execution
<pippijn> when you're going that path, I think regular expressions are the wrong tool
<Drup> pcre are a very nice parsing technology for contextual grammar.
<Drup> :D
<pippijn> yes
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<Drup> (well, not "very nice" but ... =')
<pippijn> within limits
<pippijn> pcre is a very clever piece of engineering
<pippijn> not a very nice piece of research
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<pippijn> Drup: I wanted to make a GADT-based regex engine
<pippijn> the definition of that worked
<pippijn> but then compiling it didn't
<Drup> gadt based, huhu
<pippijn> so for example
<Drup> I will have to see that to believe it :D
<pippijn> maybe I still have it somewhere
* pippijn checks
<Drup> what didn't work ?
<pippijn> instead of labels, you get functions that are called when the pattern is matched
<Drup> that's pretty much mandatory for sedlex :D
<pippijn> sure
<pippijn> easy with code generation
<Drup> yep
<pippijn> not so easy with (well-typed) automaton interpreting
<Drup> I see
<Drup> funny
<Drup> so, what didn't work ?
<pippijn> well, the type is clear
<pippijn> I didn't figure out how to write an implementation that conforms to the type
<pippijn> PatConcat
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<pippijn> yeah, I also don't know how to type it
<Drup> what exprset(s) is supposed to be ?
<Drup> yeah, it doesn't give me the intent
<pippijn> 4.1 in the paper
<Drup> ahah
<Drup> ok, later.
<Drup> anyway, I'm adding this on the todo list. If you want to work on it again, I'll be happy to collaborate.
<pippijn> |R is exprsets
<Drup> Ok.
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<vfoley> If I compile an OCaml program using ocamlopt (4.00.0) on a Linux 2.6.x machine, can I expect it to run on more recent Linux machines where OCaml is not installed?
<companion_cube> depends a lot on dynamic libs, I think
<vfoley> The program in question is a simple compiler: uses ocamllex, menhir and only the OCaml library (no Core or lwt)
<Drup> with only static compilation, I thing so :p
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<Drup> think*
<vfoley> I'm T.A. for an intro to compilers class, and we want to distribute the executable (no source code) of a compiler that students will need to implement so that they can check their own work.
<Drup> isn't distributing a set of file with the expected ouput of the execution a better idea ?
<Drup> at least from a debugging point of view, it seems more helpful
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<vfoley> One part of the assignment is to have students write both correct and incorrect programs. Having a reference compiler, they can check if they have the same behavior.
<Drup> incorrect programs are not rejected ?
<Drup> oh, you are doing the Go clone thing ? right
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<Drup> to answer, I think as long as you have not-to-old libc, you are fine. ocaml is not needed with native compilation
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<NSA360> mooshak ig nice to do that
<vfoley> Drup: all right, thanks. In the worst case, I'll just say that the compiler needs to be run on the computer science dept. machines
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<Leonidas> or in the cloud!
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<Leonidas> via js_of_ocaml
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<Drup> Leonidas: if it's a compiler that generates assembly, it might be ... annoying to do.
<flux> vfoley, if they are unix-like machines, then you can even prevent access to the binary itself
<flux> ie. executable but not readable
<flux> though I suppose reverse engineering a compiler might be a gigantic task :-)
<Leonidas> flux: won't it show up in /proc as readable?
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<flux> leonidas, you mean the exe? no.
<flux> in fact most of those files become owned by 'root' in that case, interesting :)
<flux> or whoever owns the file I guess
<flux> also core dump doesn't get generated
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<flux> (steps to reproduce: sudo install -m 711 /bin/cat ~/cat, ./cat, inspect)
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<Leonidas> I am trying to implement a function that takes an int and returns a list if [n; n-1; n-2; 0] etc in CPS style but I don't know how I can do the accumulation
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<Leonidas> I don't know what the 0 case would be, since I don't know where to store the accumulated values
<thizanne> k [0]
<thizanne> and the accumulated values are stored in the continuation in the recursive call
<Leonidas> oh, wait, you're right
<Leonidas> this is a toy example because what I am trying to solve is slightly more involved
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<Leonidas> if I understand it correctly, k does not always have to have the same type, right?
<thizanne> in your exemple k will be int list -> 'a
<seliopou> hey all, is there a way to make utop play nice with loading packed libraries during development?
<Leonidas> https://gist.github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/466a59c6c8c6b41ff512 ok, that's more like my problem
<seliopou> hmmm, scratch that maybe that's not my problem
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<Leonidas> so I want to accumulate [n..0] and then in the last step, compute a sum
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<thizanne> Leonidas: so the specification of the function is "it takes an integer n and a function k, and applies k to [n ... 0]"
<thizanne> (that's how CPS works)
<thizanne> so if your integer is 0, your spec becomes "it takes a function k and applies it to [0]"
<thizanne> which makes the case | 0 -> k [0]
<thizanne> if the integer is n, you guess that we will use foo (n - 1) (fun x -> ...)
<thizanne> foo (n - 1) takes a k and applies it to [n - 1 ... 0]
<Leonidas> thizanne: yes, I've realized that the question I had earlier was incorrect and trivially solved.
<thizanne> Leonidas: what is your problem then ?
<Leonidas> thizanne: I believe this describes it better: https://gist.github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/466a59c6c8c6b41ff512
<Leonidas> I am accumulating the numbers and want the execution to "continue" into my sum function
<thizanne> I don't see how this is different
<thizanne> yes, that's exactly how the function I described will work
<Leonidas> hmm
<Leonidas> see, that's how confused about CPS I am :)
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<thizanne> Leonidas: maybe you should unroll the call to foo 5 k, for some k (no need to make it explicit)
<Leonidas> thizanne: I believe I got it now, the idea seems to be to return a function in the | 0 case as well: https://gist.github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/466a59c6c8c6b41ff512 (updated)
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<thizanne> Leonidas: it works, here you are building the function in accumulate', and then you apply it at the end
<thizanne> but you could write it in a shorter way
<Leonidas> how?
<Leonidas> the thing is, I want sum (or whatever int list -> 'a function) to be externally suppliable
<thizanne> the way you wrote it earlier :)
<Leonidas> but that didn't work, I had these spots that I couldn't fill
<thizanne> see my comment
<Leonidas> k [0]?
<thizanne> yes
<Leonidas> I don't understand how that would work
<thizanne> you write the call to k in the 0 case (that is, when the recursive calls have finished building the list in the continuation)
<thizanne> Leonidas: unfold accu k 4
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<thizanne> (unfold like "unroll the calls manually")
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<endiruna1> how do i find the type of a function?
<endiruna1> for example what is the type of ::
<endiruna1> is there a way to get it from utop say>
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<thizanne> endiruna1: :: is not a function, it is a constructor
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<endiruna1> thizanne: i thought it took a say int and a int list and gave a list
<endiruna1> much like +
<thizanne> endiruna1: it does, but it is not considered as a function
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<endiruna1> thizanne: how do i get information on stuff? functions or constructors
<thizanne> think of list as type 'a list = | [] | ( :: ) of 'a * 'a list
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<thizanne> endiruna1: just type List.map;; in utop
<thizanne> you'll get the type of List.map
<endiruna1> what about constructors?
<def`> #typeof "Some";;
<Leonidas> thizanne: you were right, that works. Much to learn, I still have.
<companion_cube> def`: oh, neat
<Leonidas> is :: even a constructor? It seems more like… syntax.
<def`> It is a constructor, with special cases in the lexer/parser
<endiruna1> thanks thizanne and def` now it is much easier to check for stuff instead of opening a book
<def`> I don't know if you use merlin, but it might be useful too :)
<Leonidas> ah, ok. I am used to (:) in Haskell, where it acts more like a Constructor.
<endiruna1> def I use merlin. it works for functions which is pretty cool but does not seem to work with constructors
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<thizanne> that being said, everybody knows the type of ( :: ) anyway
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<def`> which is probably why I never realised :'
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<endiruna1> Leonidas: thanks for the <LocalLeader> t! that is pretty nice. I should really read the help of merlin
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<def`> endiruna1: after you can use <LocalLeader>n and p
<Leonidas> yup, I use it about a million times per day :)
<def`> to navigate for types around the cursor
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<endiruna1> thanks!
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<companion_cube> mahem1__: is there a problem with #require "foo";; ?
<companion_cube> I suggest adding the ones you use a lot into ~/.ocamlinit
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<mahem1__> companion_cube: Yes, that works fine in the top-level. But I want to know how to compile a .ml file that needs those packages.
<Drup> ocamlfind ocamlc -package foo
<Drup> plus the regular arguments
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<Drup> (or be reasonable and use a build system)
<seliopou> is there a library floating around for genearting ocaml code?
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<Drup> the compiler ? :D
<seliopou> :P
<Drup> (and ppx_tools)
<seliopou> mm
<seliopou> so they have an ast in there w/ code emitter?
<nicoo> seliopou: MetaOCaml ? :>
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<mahem1__> Drup: I returns something like: ocamlfind: Package `Glib' not found
<Drup> seliopou: yes
<Drup> mahem1__: you put the package name there
<Drup> not the module name
<Drup> nicoo: ppx_metaquot is going to be simpler :p
<mahem1__> Drup: Ok that works. Thanks
<Drup> seliopou: you should read the tutorials to write ppx
<Drup> it's going to be pretty much the same stuff
<Drup> except that instead of doing a ppx, you will just emit ast (and then use pprintast)
<nicoo> Drup: Probably, but it doesn't bring similar guarantees about only generating well-typed code, or does it?
<seliopou> Drup pointers would be appreciated. My google-fu seems to break down when attempting to search for ocaml stuff :/
<Drup> oh no, the code is certaintly not well typed.
<Drup> it's well formed, though.
<Drup> which is at least something.
<seliopou> ah ok thansk!
<Drup> seliopou: the thing you are going to use are 1) compiler-libs and more precisely, Parsetree and Ast_helper (in the directory parsing) 2) https://github.com/alainfrisch/ppx_tools ppx_metaquot in particular
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<jpdeplaix> whitequark: mmh this version seems outdated :/
<whitequark> jpdeplaix: huh?
<whitequark> i took the latest from opam-repository.
<companion_cube> I wonder, is writing a ppx in the same file it's used going to be a viable use of ppx
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> i've modified it quite a bit
<seliopou> Drup thanks for the pointers! Very helpful.
<jpdeplaix> because it doesn't seem to uninstall the llvm_backends packages
<whitequark> oh, hrm
<jpdeplaix> that's why I used make for uninstall
<jpdeplaix> I had used*
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<whitequark> it does uninstall everything for me.
<whitequark> the backends are in lib/llvm/ too, so ocamlfind remove llvm removes them.
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<jpdeplaix> Oh I see
<whitequark> the advantage is, no need to configure anything again
<jpdeplaix> yep
<jpdeplaix> then, seems good to me :)
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<endiruna1> do you know a tutorial on ocamlgraph. i can find mainly stuff in french or very little about it
<endiruna1> i need little stuff namely to represent in a good way a graph so that it is easier to experiment algorithms on it
<Drup> endiruna1: there are various examples on the main page
<companion_cube> there are still too many functors :/
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<whitequark> -ETOOMANYFUNCTORS
<Drup> not really
<Drup> I mean, the way you use them is really simple
<Drup> 1) choose datastructure
<whitequark> 0) purchase vodka
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<companion_cube> MIN_INT) distillate vodka
<Drup> 2) Apply functor on graph module backed by said datastructure
<Drup> 3) Add potential necessary arguments for the algorithm
<whitequark> Drup: you forgot the 2.5) reflect on your newfound alcoholism
<Drup> It's always the same
<Drup> it's trivial to see it from the documentation once you got the pattern
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<Drup> arguably, you need to get the pattern, but you can look at the examples (and there are numerous examples) for that.
<companion_cube> you need to apply at least 2 functors, don't you? one for the nodes and one for the edges, or something like thar
<companion_cube> that
<Drup> companion_cube: most of the time, no
<Drup> companion_cube: it takes the Graph module directly
<companion_cube> if by this you mean "yay, I only use integers", sure
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<Drup> No
<Drup> http://ocamlgraph.lri.fr/doc/Flow.html the G directly plus additional arguments
<companion_cube> hmm, ok
<Drup> http://ocamlgraph.lri.fr/doc/Components.html oh look, it's G directly !
<Drup> (do I go on ?)
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<nicoo> companion_cube: Distilating cognac is a much better idea
<nicoo> At least, you don't get overrated antifreeze out of the process :>
<nicoo> Drup: s/do/should/
<adrien> oh, you want to have him jailed?
<nicoo> (Yes, I was annoyingly pedantic yesterday)
<nicoo> adrien: I don't believe he uses FreeBSD
<nicoo> (Also, I can do that legally if I don't mind going visit family :þ)
<j0sh> is it possible to specify multiple preprocessors in a single ocamlfind pass? eg, camlp4 and cppo ?
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<nicoo> j0sh: There is no guarantee it works
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<whitequark> j0sh: you can do this yes, with cppo
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