ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<mcc> I made a pull request on sedlex! :O https://github.com/alainfrisch/sedlex/pull/24
<pippijn> congratulations
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<blech_> I'm having some trouble working with bitstring. At this point I'm trying to compile one of the example files from the official repo (I've previously installed bitstring and camlp4 through OPAM)
<blech_> I'm trying to compile with ocamlfind ocamlc with the bitstring, camlp4, and unix packages
<blech_> am I maybe missing something?
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<blech_> nevermind, I got it figured out
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<ggole> mcclurmc: did you get your opam woes sorted out?
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<vanila> LENS!!!!
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<whitequark> ggole: "mcc", not "mcclurmc"
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<ggole> Oh, I thought they were the same person. Sorry about that.
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<companion_cube> lenses in ocaml... at least yminsky is going to use fieldslib to generate them
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<moviuro> Do you think it might be possible that the issue I was facing with unison yesterday may be caused by its being compiled against different version of ocaml? (4.01 for one part, 4.02 for the other)
<adrien_znc> possible but not that likely
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<moviuro> adrien_znc: because, I'm running into trouble when syncing across FreeBSD's unison 2.48.3, ocaml 4.01 and Archlinux's unison 2.48.3, ocaml 4.02 ; not across the two same versions on the same OS
<adrien_znc> well, try to move the 4.01.0 one to 4.02.1
<adrien_znc> and see what happens :P
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<moviuro> adrien_znc: I don't control the said FreeBSD server :-/ I'll ask the sysadmin to give it a shot
<adrien_znc> you can install in a different prefix
<adrien_znc> probably safer if you want to roll back
<adrien_znc> it only needs a couple hundred MBs of disk space if you disable camlp4
<moviuro> I think compiling ocaml 4.02 will need lots of deps
<adrien_znc> no, not really
<adrien_znc> like none actually
<adrien_znc> if you can use the ocaml native compiler
<adrien_znc> you should have everything needed to build it
<adrien_znc> (like 95%)
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<moviuro> OK, so the unison problem is caused by its being compiled for 4.01 or 4.02.1
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<ingsoc> let var = <exp> in <exp>
<ingsoc> I just don't really get why "in" is worth having as language. is it just mainly for hiding intermediate variables from being seen outside an expression. I can only see the use of this if you are running out of variable names and want to shadow an outer scope variable without altering it
<ingsoc> maybe it is just the simple examples I have seen
<ggole> It's to separate the first expression from the second?
<ingsoc> ggole: what i mean is the same thing could be done by performing 2 separate assignments couldn't it using intermediate variable
<ingsoc> e.g.
<ingsoc> let languages = "OCaml,Perl,C++,C";;
<ingsoc> let dashed_languages = let languages = String.split languages ~on:',' in String.concat ~sep:"-" languages
<ingsoc> could just be written as 2 intermediate expressions
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<ingsoc> then final assignment to dashed_languages
<ggole> OK, but what does this have to do with in?
<ingsoc> let languages = String.split languages ~on:',' in
<ingsoc> String.concat ~sep:"-" languages
<ingsoc> they are using "in"
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<ingsoc> near the top
<ingsoc> just wodnering if i am missing the usefulness of it
<ingsoc> wondering*
<ggole> A separator of some kind is pretty much necessary there
<def`> (and there is no assignment)
<ingsoc> ok, but what is gained from doing...
<ingsoc> let languages = "OCaml,Perl,C++,C";;
<ingsoc> let language_list = String.split languages ~on:',';;
<ingsoc> let dashed_languages = String.concat ~sep:"-" language_list;;
<ingsoc> as 3 expressions
<ingsoc> is this a performance thing ?
<ingsoc> limiting assignments ?
<def`> those are not expressions, but definitions
<ingsoc> the book only talks about variable scoping
<def`> (value binding more precisely, binding the result of an evaluating an expression to a name)
<def`> so they can only take place in a module
<def`> if you need to name results within an expression, you need the "let-in" binding
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<MercurialAlchemi> ingsoc: well, you could easily chain all that
<ingsoc> def`: ok, but what are the benefits of doing it all in a single expression compared to what I showed as an alternative - and where else would you be executing code other than from a top level or module
<ggole> You could just nest them (or use |>) if you like
<ingsoc> sorry if i am talking rubbish or missing something
<MercurialAlchemi> ingsoc: but you don't want to confuse newcomers
<ggole> ingsoc: inside functions?
<def`> ingsoc: if you are in a function (you abstracted over some variables), you can't bind names to the outer structure
<ggole> That's where most code lives.
<MercurialAlchemi> (and it's often a good idea to name intermediate bindings anyway)
<ingsoc> ok, sorry, i am currently just working through examples in utop
<ingsoc> and not writing code in an editor
<MercurialAlchemi> but yeah, otherwise you'd probably chain them with |>
<ingsoc> so maybe this is where I am confused or missing the point
<def`> let dashed_languages languages = let language_list = String.split languages ~on:',' in String.concat ~sep:"-" language_list;;
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<ingsoc> ok, i get it now
<ingsoc> thanks all
<def`> np, sorry if I was using a bit too much vocabulary :)
<def`> (or "jargon" :P)
<ingsoc> naming results within an expression is not binding
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<def`> what is binding?
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<ggole> ingsoc: huh? It's binding, the scope of the binding is just local.
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<ingsoc> ok, binding using "in" is how you bind to intermediate names within an expression so you can use them in the scope of the expression
<ingsoc> is that accurate
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<ggole> More or less, yeah
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<Simn> I'm trying to compile latest OCaml sources on Windows following README.win32 and get a missing caml/version.h error. Is there a dependency missing in byterun/Makefile.nt or did I skip something?
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<adrien_znc> Simn: show full logs
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<ingsoc> does this imply that in ocaml a function can be defined as an operator using brackets
<ingsoc> let (<symbol>) x y
<flux> yes
<flux> the fun exception: * :-)
<ingsoc> can people get carried away with this
<ingsoc> :)
<flux> you must write let ( * ) ..
<Simn> adrien_znc, I added the dependency to Makefile.nt and now I cannot reproduce the error anymore even after make clean. So I suppose problem solved.
<flux> which leads that in general people prefer to write let ( symbol ) ..
<flux> ingsoc, I think people in general don't get overboard with this.. it's not overloaded, so you must have the operators in your scope.
<adrien_znc> Simn: were you using parallel builds?
<adrien_znc> make -jX?
<flux> ingsoc, some modules provide their own operator submodules, so you can could Matrix.(a * b)
<flux> ..though I think nobody likes to much redefine the existing operators
<Simn> adrien_znc, no, just plain make -f Makefile.nt world
<adrien_znc> ok, weird
<flux> ingsoc, btw, one thing the page doesn't mention: the precedency of said operators are the same as the operator used for the first character in the operator name
<flux> ingsoc, iow, +.. has the same precedency as +
<flux> ingsoc, that has the nice side effect that in principle you at least can see the precedency of whatever new operator you may see in the code..
<Simn> After fixing it I got errors from tools/make-version-header.sh. It seems to have CRLF line endings?! Might be my git setup though...
<ingsoc> flux: thanks
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<ingsoc> I know Ocaml has allowed people to define pipe operator since forever but now it is part of core Ocaml. How often is it used and do people find it cleans code up a bit ?, is this the main reason ?
<Drup> it's the only reason, it doesn't add new functionallity :p
<adrien_znc> Simn: you're pulling from git? that's quite a bad idea
<adrien_znc> use released versions
<ingsoc> Drup, well yeah, the only reason L)
<ingsoc> :)
<flux> ingsoc, well, because people were using it, it was added to the core
<flux> ingsoc, I suppose it's nice people agree on that operator, so projects don't define their own different ones for the same purpose
<flux> ingsoc, also there are some performance benefits, because now ocaml can see right through the operator
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<Simn> adrien_znc, I'll try, thanks. (Getting linker errors now...)
<Drup> flux: there are still places in the *compiler* where it's another operator :D
<Drup> (like, in compile.ml I think, it's ++)
<ingsoc> i guess a chain of operations is deffo clearer f3 (f2 (f1 x))
<ingsoc> i mean the pipe version is clearer
<rks`> Drup: in asmgen too
<Drup> meh
<def`> ++ is there for gc :p
<ggole> Hmm, Jonathon Blow's layout stuff is interesting
<ggole> Almost cobol-like but coming from a very different direction.
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<ousado> ggole: is that from a talk?
<ousado> or does he have something to read now?
<ggole> One of the streams
<ggole> There's a bit of a summary on the rust subreddit if you don't care to watch the video (which is pretty long)
<ousado> I've watched some of them
<ousado> it's an interesting approach
<ousado> but he hasn't mantioned ADTs
<ousado> *mentioned
<ggole> Yeah, I dunno how ADTs fit into a data oriented approach
<ggole> You could split things up per constructor
<ggole> But matching would be a bastard
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<ousado> ok that data-oriented demo is the talk you're referring to?
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<ggole> Yep
<ousado> I'm interested now. I can't think of anything programming where ADTs wouldn't be useful
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<pippijn> ousado: in a situation where you want to be able to dynamically extend the data type with new type constructors while keeping the set of operations equal
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<ousado> pippijn: that's hardly an argument against including ADTs in a language, is it?
<pippijn> "I can't think of anything programming where ADTs wouldn't be useful"
<ousado> yeah, sorry, this is in the context of Jonathan Blows language design
<pippijn> okay
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<ousado> .. and as far as I remember he hasn't mentioned them even once, so far
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<ousado> ggole: the SOA stuff is nice indeed, basically the equivalent of column-based database architecture
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<mistym> Is anyone familiar with Debian packaging for software that has opam dependencies?
<Drup> package recursively :D
<mistym> Ha :D Makes sense, just package every dep as its own package?
<Drup> you don't really have the choice
<mrvn> That's the point of packaging
* mistym nods
<mrvn> More interesting question is: Is there an opam-2-deb?
<mistym> No, I figured.
<mistym> Not that I've seen, no.
<mistym> There is dh_ocaml which likely is what I want to look at here, though.
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<ousado> in the QA someone asked him about functional datatypes - I don't think he knows what they are
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<whitequark> mistym: opam2deb would be really nice.
<whitequark> if you don't feel like learning ocaml, you can use opam-query to extract the fields from the opam file nicely.
<whitequark> in, say, a shell script *shudder*
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<MercurialAlchemi> I know there are a lot of Haskell packages packaged for Nix
<MercurialAlchemi> don't know what the situation is for OCaml
<Drup> there are lots of haskell package for nix because cabal is so terrible they can't use it. Opam is less terrible. :]
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<MercurialAlchemi> that's harsh
<MercurialAlchemi> though not entirely undeserved
<MercurialAlchemi> (I think it has sandboxes now, so it has gotten less terrible)
<Drup> indeed
<MercurialAlchemi> I'd also upgrade opam to "fairly decent" (IMHO)
<MercurialAlchemi> though not perfect yet
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<MercurialAlchemi> that said, it would be nice to have utop and merlin in Debian
<MercurialAlchemi> I see ocp-indent is already there
<struk|work> MercurialAlchemi: I actually find ocaml deb packages work against my opam installation alot
<MercurialAlchemi> they do?
<MercurialAlchemi> hm
<bernardofpc> talking about packaging, is it easy to take a META file from opam and use it as installation instructions for Gentoo ?
<MercurialAlchemi> I suspect most of my OCaml stuff comes from opam, actually :D
<bernardofpc> (of course, using aspcud inside gentoo to solve deps would be a great win, but I don't know wether it can handle USE-flag-dependent-dependencies
<mistym> whitequark: Oh, thanks! I'll take a look at it
<Drup> Sorry, I can't possibly not link that.
<MercurialAlchemi> the creature reminds me of Martin Tenbones
<struk|work> Drup: I want an alot. Where do I get one?
<Drup> It costs alot.
<MercurialAlchemi> Must eat alot too
<Drup> bernardofpc: I think nicoo did something to embed opam packages inside distrib-packages but it was not for gentoo itself
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<bernardofpc> I'm reading about aspcud and CUDF, the file format doesn't seem amenable to USE-flags :/
<bernardofpc> versions are positive integers, usual version strings like "1.2.3-4" are not accepted -> oh no, firefox-36
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<bernardofpc> are there any technical reasons (about SAT or something) that imply int ordering being preferable to string ordering ??
<bernardofpc> (num-dot string ordering, of course)
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: no debian users in merlin team, contributions welcome :)
<Drup> bernardofpc: it's accepted in opam format
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<MercurialAlchemi> def`: all of the Apple cult?
<Drup> MercurialAlchemi: or non-debian linux, it exists.
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<dmbaturin> def`: I stopped being a debian user, but I'm still a regular debian package writer. :)
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<Anarchos> what is the best literate programming tool for ocaml ?
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<mrvn> I like my emacs illiterate
<Anarchos> mrvn i am on an exotic OS so no emacs :)
<def`> MercurialAlchemi: arch :p
<MercurialAlchemi> def`: :)
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<MercurialAlchemi> to be fair, Arch packaging (at least from what I hear) is not as "interesting" as packaging for Debian
<def`> yeah, Debian looks like a huge waste of energy :p
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<MercurialAlchemi> well, it works, but the packaging format is...
<MercurialAlchemi> involved
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<struk|work> Anarchos: vim +merlin is an option then
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<MercurialAlchemi> maybe I'll see if I can't package merlin when I have a bit of time
<sdegutis> What are your most and least favorite aspects of OCaml?
<Anarchos> struk|work i mean literate programming as "a tool to reorganize chunks of code", not as an elaborate javadoc...
<Anarchos> sdegutis most favorite : powerful types and pattern matching
<struk|work> Anarchos: ah I see..
<vanila> my favorite thing is mirage !
<sdegutis> Can I make custom types similar to C structs to represent my domain models with?
<sdegutis> And if so, can the compiler check for me whether I'm testing for the right key?
<MercurialAlchemi> Anarchos: I see there is something called OCaml-web
<Anarchos> sdegutis you have structs on ocaml : type t = {a:int ; b:float}
<MercurialAlchemi> the homepage looks sanctioned by Stallman himself
<sdegutis> I'm coming from Clojure where if I type {:status 404} and use it somewhere else, there's no protection against me checking for the :statis key (typo)
<MercurialAlchemi> sdegutis: oh, don't worry, the compiler is very good at insulting you when you do this kind of thing
<sdegutis> :)
<sdegutis> What's your least favorite aspect of OCaml?
<Anarchos> MercurialAlchemi if sanctus stallman said it...
<MercurialAlchemi> tooling
<Anarchos> MercurialAlchemi but in web fields, i would prefer a stamp from Knuth :)
<Drup> the legacy :D
<MercurialAlchemi> Anarchos: oh, he didn't say anything about it, but he approves of pre-HTML 1.0 webpages
<sdegutis> Drup: what legacy?
<Drup> sdegutis: OCaml is an old language, some decisions were made which at the time were good ideas but are not so much now.
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<Drup> little bits everywhere, nothing huge
<sdegutis> Drup: like what?
<sdegutis> And is there a modern language that's just like OCaml but has cleaned up and fixed those decisions?
<Drup> not really, no
<sdegutis> :'(
<Drup> but I mean, it's nothing unbearable
<MercurialAlchemi> there are more kickass decisions than dubious ones
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<Drup> Like, Str
<Drup> ok, Str may have been a Bad Idea™ right from the start :>
<rks`> who cares about Str?
<Drup> the poor people inhering code using it, I suppose
<Drup> inheriting*
<Drup> sdegutis: the big wrath are mostly not in the language design itself :p
<vanila> i know why my least favorite part of ocaml is!
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<vanila> this shelling out stuff, Not after shellshock
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<whitequark> what?
<whitequark> it's the "system" function.
<whitequark> that's how "system" works.
<vanila> oops
<mrvn> and system uses /bin/sh which doesn't have to be bash
<vanila> my mistake
<whitequark> same difference
<whitequark> you still need a vector to set environment variables to something user-provided
<vanila> I thnk you should execve the program you want to run, not shell
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<sdegutis> There are differences between the two approaches; they are not interchangeable.
<sdegutis> So I've been looking for a new favorite statically typed language, and Nim and Rust missed the cut.
<sdegutis> Swift won so far, but is still buggy and has a ways to go.
<rks`> how did swift win?
<sdegutis> Scala lost mostly due to being a JVM language.
<sdegutis> rks`: because Swift is pretty nice
<sdegutis> So now I'm inspecting OCaml.
<rks`> .
<mtbk> sdegutis I am doing the same here
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<mtbk> sdegutis ocaml seems really promising, wish I had learned it long ago.
<Drup> Switf is mostly a bad OCaml =')
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<Drup> (not to speak badly of other languages and all that.)
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<sdegutis> Does OCaml have either mutable variables or struct fields?
<Drup> sdegutis: by curiosity, why did Rust missed the cut ?
<Drup> yes
<sdegutis> Drup: it was too low-level and verbose for me; I couldn't omit things I didn't care about
<Drup> ok, fair enough
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<mtbk> sdegutis: yes, it has everything, Functional, OO and imperative
<sdegutis> excellent
<sdegutis> I forgot why OCaml lost the content for me last year.
<sdegutis> I hope the reason is no longer relevant.
<mtbk> just make me wondering why it's not popular
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<sdegutis> And I especially hope that I don't run into it again, it being still relevant.
<vanila> rust?
<vanila> i think rust is not well designed..
<dmbaturin> Drup: Swift has no parametric polymorphism and ADTs. It needs a lot of work to earn the bad ocaml title. :)
<sdegutis> adt?
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<Drup> dmbaturin: it had ADTs
<dmbaturin> sdegutis: Algebraic types.
<sdegutis> oh
<Drup> mtbk: the popularity of languages is not really factor of quality, more like randomness, ease of learning for mainstream programmer and support of a company
<sdegutis> rks`: that's an old blogp ost
<rks`> so?
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<sdegutis> os
<Drup> sdegutis: still relevant
<sdegutis> ok
<vanila> yeah the post rks` links is excellent
<vanila> over all that guys blog is extremely high quality
<sdegutis> I remember reading that blog post.
<vanila> I wi sh I could do such in depth analyses
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<dmbaturin> Oddly enough, I'm now rewriting a python project prototype in ocaml too. Looks like using python for that was a mistake.
<mtbk> Drup: I was comparing to haskell, which seems to have much more packages than ocaml.
<sdegutis> Can OCaml interface with C beautifully?
<rks`> what do you mean by beautifully?
<sdegutis> Can OCaml interface with the ".framework" style of dynamic libraries?
<sdegutis> rks`: it's subjective
<rks`> that's why I'm asking :)
<Drup> (23:18:19) sdegutis: Can OCaml interface with the ".framework" style of dynamic libraries? <- I don't know what that mean :D
<adrien_znc> sounds like mac os
<adrien_znc> x
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<mtbk> Drup: but haskell is more obtuse...
<moviuro> argh, can't reproduce the bug with unison... I tried everything :( all available versions against each other... all possible conflicts and changes, in all ways imaginable
<Drup> "obtuse" :p
<sdegutis> Right, I mean, can OCaml use Mac OS X's frameworks?
<sdegutis> I want to use Carbon.framework which is a bunch of C functions and data types.
<sdegutis> *which contains
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<mcc> OCaml has a way to interact with C functions for sure.
<mcc> Objective C (Cocoa), I'm not sure.
<jwatzman|work> i thought carbon was super deprecatd
<jwatzman|work> *deprecated
<mcc> You could also just use Swift, which is almost ML :)
<dmbaturin> Drup: I've been reading swift manual lately, did it lose ADTs at some point? What I found fun is that it has special syntax for option.
<rks`> :DDDD
<mtbk> Drup: I was banning my head for a week before I gave up haskell
<Drup> mcc: backlog :p
<rks`> he just joined.
<mcc> oh >_>
<dmbaturin> mcc: Some lines ago I said that swift needs a lot of work to earn the bad ML title. :)
<mcc> haha
<mcc> rks`: (also, if you meant me, I am a she)
<mtbk> ocaml is very smooth to me so far
<mcc> Also I feel very sure OCaml can interface with frameworks if it can interact with C. Framework support is something Apple added to the GCC and Clang tools. It's part of mach-o.
<dmbaturin> What frameworks are you talking about?
<Drup> scroll a bit to "Associated Values"
<Drup> it's actually ADTs and not simply enums
<adrien_znc> iirc frameworks are quite mandatory on os x
<mcc> dmbaturin: OS X has the concept of a "framework bundle", which is a directory ending in .framework . It is a special way of packaging libraries and headers together, along with versioning information.
<rks`> mcc: I did, but does it matter?
<adrien_znc> and ocaml definitely has something related to them
<whitequark> mcc: yes it can interact with frameworks
<whitequark> see ocamlmklib -framework for example
<sdegutis> jwatzman|work: it's not
<dmbaturin> Drup: Oh, looks like I missed that part.
<Drup> framework is such an overloaded term. :|
<sdegutis> mcclurmc: I have been; see https://github.com/sdegutis/DIY-Window-Manager
<mcclurmc> mcc ^^^
<def`> :D
<sdegutis> How does OCaml allow me to represent Either<T,U> ?
<def`> ('t,'u) either
<sdegutis> nice
<whitequark> sdegutis: type ('t, 'u) either = T of 't | U of 'u
<Drup> mcclurmc: you have been more bothered lately I guess :D
<sdegutis> jwatzman|work: notice the words "most of"
<mcclurmc> well, i'm awake this time Drup :)
<whitequark> i've thought that mcc = mccl*rmc for over a year
<mcc> mcclurmc: Hi ^_^;
<whitequark> it was really confusing when i finally matched the github and twitter avatars for both of you
<sdegutis> jwatzman|work: for example, global hotkey functionality is still only found in Carbon; there is no other way to get this except by using Carbon
<mcclurmc> mcc: hello my doppelganger :)
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<dmbaturin> mcc: Ah, ok. I know very little about OS X development, so I've never even heard of that before.
<sdegutis> Oh I think maybe it was poor handling of JSON that turned me off to OCaml last time?
<whitequark> mcc: so I looked at how ocamlmklib handles -framework
<whitequark> it just does ocamlc/opt -ccopt '-framework x'
<def`> sdegutis: JSON is ok :P, I mean it's just a library to choose…
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<def`> and the existing ones are much better than anything objective-c has to offer ;)
<mcc> whitequark: that sounds right.
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<sdegutis> def`: I meant the language doesn't make it easy to use
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<def`> sdegutis: I would actively avoid a language having special cases for something as trivial :P
<mcc> i suspect there will be a future version which generalizes some of the odder things.
<dmbaturin> Drup: What I find strange about that swift manual is that it seems to avoid calling things by their usual names, like "product type" is a curseword or something.
<mcc> there's some REALLY wierd specialization around generics.
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<Drup> dmbaturin: consider the public of this manual
<mcc> Like, I believe that last I checked the swift equivalent of NSArrays are generalizable, but not some of the other cocoa data types
<Drup> Objective C programmers
<Drup> (or even *grasp* C programmers)
<Drup> gasp*
<sdegutis> def`: no, not special casing
* mcc thinks avoiding type theory terminology sounds great.
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<def`> (speaking of what I miss in ocaml, I would like is abstracting over patterns… I don't know any other language offering this though)
<Drup> mcc: it's sometimes annoying for really basic things
<mcc> Probably yeah.
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<Drup> mcc: calling a tuple a tuple and an ADTs an ADTs simplify most people's life
<whitequark> def`: I've seen this *somewhere*
<Drup> you can then go on and explain what is and ADTs
<def`> :)
<mcc> Yeah… tuple in particular is not a very specialized term. Python uses it
<rks`> def`: :)
<def`> whitequark: you can encode that in F# with active patterns, or in haskell with views and transformations
<Drup> active patterns are not great, though
<def`> yep
<Drup> (I don't know the haskell enough to have an opinion, I just know it exists)
<Drup> +one
<whitequark> mcc: I'm not sure I like the idea of not introducing terminology unless it exists in $BLAND_LANGUAGE
<Drup> mcc: for ADTs, it's especially true since it's a very simple extension of Enums that most C programmers know how to encode manually
<whitequark> and I especially dislike this with regards to ADTs
<def`> Drup: it's quite simple, but expressive enough to be useful
<dmbaturin> I picked up the terminology pretty quick (well, formal math education, but still).
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<Drup> def`: sure, we were refering to the fact that the switf manual don't name them as what they are.
<def`> Drup: I meant haskell views ;-)
<Drup> Oh.
<Drup> (I think I'll manage to typo swift in every possible way tonight)
<def`> Drup: but yeah, any terminology coming from huuuu, mainstream, is pure bullshit
<Drup> def`: the pure category theory terminology is not always better.
<mcc> whitequark: well, it's evidence the term is nonthreatening.
<Drup> (at least, it's more precisely defined, usually)
<def`> Drup: but at least, at least there is a definition somewhere
<def`> :)
<mcc> i think there is some benefit to trying to select nonthreatening terminology, and the drawbacks are also obvious. it probably depends on context.
<Drup> (except when an Haskellian try to conflate GHC Haskell and the ideal category theory view of it)
<Drup> (and then, hands are waved)
<def`> if they provided any formal definition, I would be fine with objects, frameworks, reactive, etc
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<def`> mcc: do you consider category theory terminology threatening :) ?
<mcc> def`: YES.
<mcc> def`: I would remove category theory terminology from CATEGORY THEORY if I could.
* whitequark waits until mcc discovers Lwt
<rks`> nothing would be left mcc.
<Drup> mcc: Swift encourage API design based on the singleton pattern, enforcing separation of containment units by a contract based on meta informations.
<mcc> rks`: I am not going to disagree with this statement.
<Drup> :<
<def`> :-)
<Drup> the singleton pattern is the most outrageous OOP terminology I have seen, I think.
<def`> it just shows how broken it is
<mcc> the "i give up" pattern
<def`> it's concrete nonsense :)
<Drup> It's literally *a single function*
<whitequark> Drup: isn't a singleton an object that is guaranteed to be created once
<dmbaturin> mcc: Reminds me, we had a calculus professor who would routinely use smileys and other funny things for operation symbols to teach people the difference between funny symbols and semantics behind them.
<Drup> and that contains only a method, usually
<def`> Drup: it's a global variable, that's all :P
<Drup> def`: or a poor isolated cloture
<dmbaturin> He also made people write proofs without using any math symbols at all sometimes.
<Drup> dmbaturin: that's ... not so great
<whitequark> def`: Drup: it has semantics that is different from just a global variable
<whitequark> it's an immutable global variable with a static initializer that runs at a predictable moment
<whitequark> as opposed to just randomly in the startup process, like in C++
<Drup> so, it's a function.
<mcc> dmbaturin: that makes some sense.
<whitequark> Drup: how does that make it a function?
<mcc> Drup: Think of it like a namespace, for languages which have bad support for namespaces/modules
<Drup> a top level function, but still.
<whitequark> no, it's not a function. It has state
<Drup> a function can have state.
<mcc> Drup: Not in C++
<mcc> Drup: Only an object pretending to be a function can have state
<whitequark> Drup: right. I see your point now.
<Drup> yes, my point. è_é
<mcc> (Let's not talk about the "lambdas"...)
<def`> whitequark: not sure to follow… what do you mean by predictable?
<mcc> A lot of "patterns" are really just workarounds for something a particular language supports badly.
<mcc> def`: Static initializers in C++ do not run in any predictable order :(
<whitequark> ^
<def`> I agree, but that's a specific language issue
<def`> language specific issue*
<mcc> The singleton pattern exists to work around language-specific issues.
<whitequark> :D
<def`> so you mean that by running the initializer lazily, singleton offer some way to predict initialization?
<Drup> mcc: that's every pattern every.
<Drup> ever*
<whitequark> def`: essentially
<mcc> def`: Yes. And potentially enforces an order of initialization (if the singleton objects' definitions depend on each other)
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<def`> I agree with that. But this doesn't deserve any name
<mcc> Drup: I think if you take a broad notion of "pattern" you do find some which are not bound to any particular language. I'd describe monads as a pattern :P
<Drup> mcc: and arguably, monads are a way to work around limitations in haskell to deal with side effects.
<mcc> def`: It is a thing one does frequently in C++, and sometimes there is literally a "Singleton" class used to implement the machinery
<def`> you meant a Singleton template :')
<Drup> \O/
<Denommus> Drup: that's only one possible use for monads, and hardly the most useful one
<whitequark> mcc: (monads as a pattern) that's how I always describe them
<Drup> Denommus: I know :)
<whitequark> they are arguably more useful *not in programming*
<mcc> In at least one situation I have seen a templated class for Singleton.
<def`> I think of monads as just overloading ';'
<Drup> mcc: since I have seen a code generator of Visitor that takes xml description, I'm not surprised anymore.
<Denommus> I like how blaze-html encodes a template DSL with monads
<whitequark> that sounds horrifying
<Drup> whitequark: it's tyxml's functor, without the statically type checked part
<Drup> nothing horrible, just machinery to generate html in different ways
<def`> (overloading and not fucking up the operator probably deserve a pattern title in C++-world ;-))
<Drup> (reactive or not, and so on)
<def`> operator laws*
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<Drup> def`: we need to come up with a fancy non-threatening name for the pattern of defining a monad.
<Drup> the COMPOSITION pattern ?
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<Drup> (still a bit math-y)
<def`> inversion of control
<def`> (or IoC for short)
<Drup> I find the name "inversion of control" very threatening.
<Drup> (It's like "dependency injection", I roll for sanity check every time I read that)
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<def`> (yop)
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<def`> the term is just overloadad
<Denommus> the problem is that the term "monad" represents something too abstract to have a more... reachable term
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<def`> but it's actually inversion of control
<def`> (and not a dependency injection ;-))
<Drup> (O_°)
<dmbaturin> Someone proposed to call monads "warm, fuzzy things".
<Drup> (Note that I heard someone say that could view functors as a form of safe dependency injections)
<dmbaturin> Drup: What is a dependency injection?
<Denommus> def`: I don't know what you mean by inversion of control
<Drup> def`: In software engineering, dependency injection is a software design pattern that implements inversion of control for software libraries
<Drup> literally monads.
<Drup> (for software libraries)
<Drup> :D
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<def`> Denommus: when you execute within a 'monad' you give the implementor to grab, store, restore, etc, the control flow
<def`> (hence libraries for concurrent programming exposing a "monadic" interface)
<def`> the implementor +the freedom+ to grab, …
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