<blech_>
MercurialAlchemi, oh, I didn't realize they wrote it
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<nicoo>
bernardofpc: As Drup mentionned, I did some work in having Paludis (Exherbo's native package mangler, useable under Gentoo too) understand OPAM repositories. It is nowhere near being release-worthy yet
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<nicoo>
MercurialAlchemi: (Reacting 17h afterwards) One of the things I find great in Exherbo is the package description "language" (it is actually a DSL embedded inside bash, but don't tell anyone)
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<sdegutis>
I think I remember what it was about OCaml that made me decide against it last time I was looking into languages: it's not very for writing templating libraries, right?
<flux>
templating libraries?
<flux>
for generating documents?
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<sdegutis>
For like HTML templating.
<companion_cube>
there's a library for that, with typed html
<sdegutis>
Either way, I no longer need that feature.
<rks`>
:'D
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<bernardofpc>
nicoo: I'd really love opam2ebuild ;-)
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<bernardofpc>
portage itself has already dependencies, reverse-dependencies-recompilation and all that
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<nicoo>
bernardofpc: I'm not interested *at all* in opam2ebuild. If I go this route, it will be opam2eapi0 (EAPI-0 being the current version of out package description language). However, making it possible to change the output template suitably should be easy.
<nicoo>
What I did until now, though, is basically patching Paludis to make it understand OPAM's repository format. More annoying to do, but faaaaar more useful ^^
<bernardofpc>
I see
<bernardofpc>
and therefore you install only the oopam versions of every package, not those already in the tree
<sdegutis>
I think OCaml will be the next language I learn, if I ever do learn another one.
<companion_cube>
sdegutis: well chosen ;)
<sdegutis>
But as of now, I have no need for learning a new one, besides pleasure, which is not something to be sought for its own sake.
<ia0>
what's your current default programming language for general tasks?
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<sdegutis>
ia0: I don't do general tasks.
<sdegutis>
For work, I write a web app written in about 8k SLOC of Clojure.
<ia0>
ok
<sdegutis>
Is OCaml popularly used for writing web apps?
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<Leonidas>
nah, wouldn't say
<ia0>
but some people do
<thizanne>
no, but I would rather say that writing web apps is not popular for using OCaml
<Leonidas>
yep, and it is getting better
<Leonidas>
cohttp on mirage, that sounds quite cool :-)
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<Drup>
sdegutis: we do have nice tools for it, though. :p
<sdegutis>
What do you mostly use OCaml for?
<sdegutis>
I plan to use it to write the 8th generation of my OS X window manager.
<sdegutis>
The last one was written in Swift which was a vast improvement over the other iterations but is still not ideal.
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<Leonidas>
sdegutis: Writing compilers is popular
<sdegutis>
What else?
<Drup>
and finance stuff, weirdly :D
<jonludlam>
virtualisation management stuff? :-)
<Leonidas>
file synchronization stuff? :-)
<Drup>
jonludlam: mirage ? not really virtualisation management
<jonludlam>
xapi
<Leonidas>
Drup: virt-tools
<jonludlam>
libguestfs stuff
<sdegutis>
So far none of these are something I'd use it for.
<companion_cube>
logic, symbolic computations (mostly by academics)
<sdegutis>
I heard there's some disagreement whether Jane Street library is better or not than OCaml's standard library. What is the general consensus on this?
<Drup>
that's ... sort of the wrong question
<sdegutis>
Oh?
<whitequark>
I don't think "better" is something you can apply here
<whitequark>
it's more extensive, for sure
<Drup>
mostly everyone agrees that the standard library is not good
<Drup>
what we don't really agree on is what to use instead :p
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<whitequark>
at the same time, its size comes with a cost
<ggole>
Some of it is OK
<whitequark>
so it's not "core vs stdlib"
<whitequark>
it's "core vs something else"
<sdegutis>
What do you each prefer?
<Drup>
Depends of the size of what I'm doing and if I need some specific data structure
<Drup>
containers if I'm doing something small and that could potentially be compiled to js
<sdegutis>
This is kind of a turn-off.
<Drup>
batteries for it's a bit bigger
<Drup>
s/for/if/
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<Drup>
sdegutis: not really, everyone has its taste and a big (and opinionated) library like Core can't please everyone.
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<whitequark>
he quit?..
<struk|work>
I never met a programming language where it was clear what extensions to the stdlib I should use.
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<mcc>
Hey, quick question. Looking at sedlexing.ml in Sedlex. Found this line: let from_stream s = create (fun buf pos _len -> try buf.(pos) <- Stream.next s; 1 with Stream.Failure -> 0)
<mcc>
What is the meaning of the parenthesis in buf.(pos) ?
<Drup>
array access ?
<mcc>
I notice that pos in this position is both a field of lexbuf and also a locally bound variable.
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<mcc>
okay. so looking at Array I see "You can also write a.(n) instead of Array.get a n"
<mcc>
has the Array module somehow "overridden" the . operator, or is x.(y) universally sugar for x.get y ?
<Drup>
for now, it's universally sugar
<mcc>
ok
<Drup>
(desugar at parsing time ...)
<def`>
well for now, it's not
<Drup>
it will change in next ocaml
<def`>
it's really hardcoded that a.(x) expands to Array.get a x and a.(x) <- v to Array.set a x v
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<rks`>
what def` means is: don't listen to Drup
<struk|work>
Drup: in next ocaml, what is that changing to?
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<def`>
rks`: t'es souple aussi :) ?
<mcc>
okay. so .(x) really can only be used on arrays?
<bernardofpc>
sdegutis: solve 100 problems of Project Euler
<sdegutis>
Given type ratio = {num: int; denom: int};; how does let add_ratio r1 r2 = {num = r1.num * r2.denom + r2.num * r1.denom; denom = r1.denom * r2.denom};; know that it's creating specifically a ratio?
<bernardofpc>
(don't skip the poker game if you want to do dirty things fast in OCaml)
<Drup>
sdegutis: easy, it looks at the field names you are using :)
<sdegutis>
Is that literally examining every possible type with num and denom fields and finding one?
<def`>
almost
<sdegutis>
That seems like it would cause problems when two different types have similarly named fields with compatible/convertible types.
<def`>
previously, field names were unique in a scope
<def`>
recently, disambiguation has been added, which filter possible candidates
<def`>
if two different types match… is a type error (typing fields is indeed delicate, if not a bit clumsy)
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<icicled>
Could someone when Lwt_unix.recv_msg would be useful to use?
<icicled>
Could someone explain please ...
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<toolslive>
you can get a message from a udp socket
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<toolslive>
or is it the io_vector 's you're wondering about?
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<icicled>
toolslive: is it only for UDP sockets?
<toolslive>
no.
<toolslive>
you asked for a possible use and I provided 1 possible use
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<icicled>
Lwt_unix.recv_msg appears to map to the recvmmsg syscall - is that right?
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<toolslive>
yes, it's also a way to avoid a copy
<toolslive>
hm hold on.
<icicled>
further digging shows it maps to recvmsg & not recvmmsg
<toolslive>
what are you trying to do?
<icicled>
just exercising in writing a small echo server using lwt
<icicled>
I noticed recv_msg & was wondering how I could try and use that for fun
<toolslive>
the simplest way is to use channels then.
<icicled>
the docs are not very detailed, as are any examples of that function so I thought I'd ask here
<toolslive>
look at Lwt_io.establish_server
<toolslive>
well, it's probably used somewhere in ocsigen
<toolslive>
(the recv_msg that is)
<icicled>
I thought it was odd that establish_server was missing from Lwt_unix - it's in Lwt_io heh
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<toolslive>
if it's toys you want to build, it's Lwt_io you need. if you want high performance IO, you probably want to go down a bit and assume control over the fd.
<toolslive>
io_vectors allow you to write on a socket without the need to prepare the data in 1 contigious buffer.
<toolslive>
so saving you a copy there.
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<icicled>
I see. So the point is to allocate N buffers once in the beginning and re-use them for each subsequent call (where N is the max number of connections expected)?
<toolslive>
there are multiple variations... you can also set it up to write from several buffers into 1 fd with 1 call
<icicled>
toolslive: where could I learn more about this topic & the related syscalls?
<icicled>
I'm curious
<toolslive>
the concept is called scatter/gather io
<sdegutis>
I somehow doubt such an emacs function is fully competent.
<toolslive>
caml-types-show-type
<sdegutis>
Drup: thanks
<toolslive>
or C-c C-t
<Drup>
toolslive: you should try merlin again.
<toolslive>
ok, I have merlin installed.
<toolslive>
I ask the type and it gives me
<toolslive>
'a
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<toolslive>
I ask the same via caml-types-show-type
<toolslive>
and I get the full type
<Drup>
but you need to compile for caml-show-types to work, and it doesn't work if you are in the middle of editing, and it doesn't do completion, and I'm pretty sure you are not using the englobing scope thing.
<toolslive>
also merlin is doing completion, but also hints completion inside strings and wants to complete 'in' into in_channel
<sdegutis>
If I create a class with methods, are those methods free-floating within my module such that they can be called as functions with an instance as the first argument instead of the typical method-invocation notation?
<Drup>
sdegutis: no.
<toolslive>
no.
<toolslive>
this is not python ;)
<Drup>
toolslive: "wants to complete 'in' into in_channel" <- that's your completion setting, not merlin's
<sdegutis>
toolslive, Drup: Great.
<Drup>
sdegutis: also, friendly advice, don't use objects for now.
<sdegutis>
Can I at somehow access a method without an instance and use it as a function that has the same arity except taking an instance as the first argument?
<Drup>
yes
<sdegutis>
i.e. if I had a method "bar" on class Foo that took two ints, could I somehow get a function that takes a Foo followed by two ints?
<sdegutis>
Great.
<Drup>
let f obj = obj#bla x
<toolslive>
hold in, I don't fiddle with my emacs, I just enabled merlin when it came with opam.... so it's not me, it's merlin.
<sdegutis>
So far I approve of OCaml.
<toolslive>
(it's also gone if I disable merlin)
<sdegutis>
(Semantically.)
<Drup>
toolslive: no, it's the autocompletion setting. you can turn the default dictionnaries off and it won't do that
<Drup>
but that's related to autocomplete, which is crap by default.
<sdegutis>
Why don't more people use OCaml to write web apps?
<sdegutis>
It sounds excellent.
<toolslive>
but merlin enables autocomplete where I have it disabled by default?
<Drup>
sdegutis: I have a lot of question myselfs about the language choice of some people :D
<thizanne>
sdegutis: because usually people who like ocaml don't want to write web apps
<thizanne>
and reciprocally
<sdegutis>
thizanne: but sometimes we get paid to
<Drup>
Unhammer: btw, do you have a visible version of the thing you wrote in eliom ?
<Drup>
toolslive: regarding Lwt_engine
<Drup>
that's not how it works
<Drup>
you can convert a libev engine to Lwt_engine.t, not the other way around
<Drup>
if you want to be sure you are using libev
<Drup>
create a new engine (new Lwt_engine.libev) and use Lwt_engine.set
<toolslive>
well, you can set the engine before you call Lwt_main.run
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<toolslive>
but how to find the one you're currently using ?
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<Drup>
You can't.
<Drup>
and I'm pretty sure that's on purpose
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<Anarchos>
i wonder if ocaml folks use noweb to develop ?
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Noweb the literate programming tool?
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin yes
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<toolslive>
ok, how do I then turn of the default dictionaries on emacs for the completion, and how do I get merlin to give concrete type information iso 'a half of the time ?
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<toolslive>
mind, sometimes it works....
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<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Did you ever build noweb from source?
<dmbaturin>
* built
<Anarchos>
yes of course, why ?
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: I'm on a system that doesn't have noweb binaries, so I'm wondering if it's an easy task.
<Anarchos>
yes it is easy
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin which kind of system ?
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Fedora. I used to use debian back then, and that's where I used noweb last time. Your question reminded me to try it with ocaml. :)
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i am on HaikuOS.
<Anarchos>
but you need a latex system
<dmbaturin>
Well, no doubt.
<dmbaturin>
Latex is one of the first things I normally install on a new machine.
<Anarchos>
if only i could at work...
<Anarchos>
i finally managed our sysadmin to do it :)
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Are there latex binaries for haiku, or you build it yourself?
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i ported texlive
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin so i distributed binaries to install with the texlive "install-tl" installer
<dmbaturin>
Did you or someone else port ocaml too?
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<sdegutis>
Can idiomatic OCaml programs be as fast as C or close?
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin yes
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin there is an official port of ocaml for haiku
<Anarchos>
but i prefer mine ;)
<icicled>
Drup: regarding the lwt engine, suppose I need to output a message warning that libev is not in use, can I do that?
<icicled>
will creating the libev engine raise an exception?
<icicled>
if libev isn't available that is
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<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Do you also contribute to haiku itself?
<Drup>
icicled: no idea
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i am not skilled enough for that , sadly
<smondet>
icicled: maybe Lwt_sys.have does what you want?
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i am considering implementing a martelli-montanari unification algorithm in ocaml, using noweb
<icicled>
smondet, Drup: yes, an exception does get thrown if libev is not present when creating & switching engines
<icicled>
hoorah =]
<toolslive>
Lwt_sys.feature `libev ?
<toolslive>
Lwt_sys.have`libev ?
<icicled>
Drup mentioned that to be really sure that libev is being used you might have lwt use a new instance of libev
<icicled>
apparently it's not guaranteed?
<toolslive>
it's the default if you have it
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<Anarchos>
sdegutis close.
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin do you program yourself ?
<sdegutis>
Great.
<sdegutis>
Anarchos: Closer than Java?
<Anarchos>
sdegutis no idea.
<Anarchos>
sdegutis it depends on your gc tuning and other parameters
<Anarchos>
so it is different to say that a *language* is better than another. It is more accurate to say that a *runtime* for language A is faster than *runtime* for language B ;)
<sdegutis>
Anarchos: no, because a language translates eventually into machine code, which can be compared in many ways
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<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Well, that's the reason I'm here. :)
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin what kind of programs are you interested to develop ?
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: Mainly network-related stuff, but I'm getting more and more interested in compilers lately. I'm dmbaturin on github.
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin ok.
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i am writing a formal verifier for first order logic WITH axiom schemas.
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin that is why i need an unification algorithm ; noweb is just a tool to have a more accurate documentation of the code, to be more comfident on what i code?
<dmbaturin>
As of "close to C", I find it fun that when working with a language compiled into native code I find myself thinking about efficiency more often than when working with interpreted languages.
<dmbaturin>
Anarchos: True. This kind of task needs elaborate comments anyway, why not to add an instant pretty print to it.
<dmbaturin>
-to
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i am comfident on martelli-montanari algorithm, but not on me i code it without noweb ;)
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<dmbaturin>
Also, at least noweb is not intrusive. Not like haskell bird mode. :)
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin i don't know haskell.
<Anarchos>
dmbaturin what is your level/skill ?
<dmbaturin>
Haskell supports source file format with bare lines interpreted as text and lines starting with ">" interpreted as code. And it's quite annoying compared to <<name>>= ... @
<dmbaturin>
My haskell skill? Very low.
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<Anarchos>
dmbaturin and university grade ?
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<icicled>
anyone know of a date/time library with timezone support utilizing the tz database?
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<icicled>
dmbaturin: have you by any chance taken a look at org-mode in emacs with code embedding?
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<icicled>
alsamixer
<icicled>
derp, thought this was a shell >_>
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<j0sh>
is there a rule about passing in a function with optional arguments as first-class values?
<j0sh>
no matter what i do, i can't seem to get the optional args to apply
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<sdegutis>
Any of you tried out Clojure and have any opinions on it?
<sdegutis>
Or Swift?
<sdegutis>
Or Rust?
<sdegutis>
Any of these three I'd be curious to hear your opinions on.
<pippijn>
I like rust for having a largely unspecified ABI
<pippijn>
the compiler is free to do ABI-breaking optimisations, unless you explicitly tell it not to (because you want to call it from C)
<smondet>
clojure has dynamic typing so only deserves `/dev/null`; Swift is bad implementation of a subset of ML-languages, no point in it; Rust seems cool for very low-level OS code… maybe (things like Bedrock seems much more interesting for the same domain as rust)
<pippijn>
I like that rust has deterministic destruction
<sdegutis>
What do you think of its borrowing stuff?
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<pippijn>
borrowing stuff is quite nice
<pippijn>
I like it
<pippijn>
expressing ownership is nice for low level stuff
<pippijn>
it's generally nice, but especially nice for low level code
<pippijn>
I like that the refcounted pointer is called Arc
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<MercurialAlchemi>
any idea of how much creating modules at runtime means in terms of perfs?
<MercurialAlchemi>
functorized modules, even
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<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: imagine doing the same operation with records
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<MercurialAlchemi>
right
<MercurialAlchemi>
doesn't sound too bad then
<MercurialAlchemi>
I'm playing with some horrific looking dependency injection system
<MercurialAlchemi>
but I'll get a nice design eventually
<MercurialAlchemi>
(or not)
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