<sdegutis>
whitequark: which do you prefer, Rust or OCaml?
<whitequark>
practically zero intersection in domains
<whitequark>
i prefer ml, those two are ml incarnates
<sdegutis>
oh
<whitequark>
don't think i ever seen a problem where i would choose between those two.
<whitequark>
rust and c/c++, sure
<sdegutis>
I think I gave up on OCaml and moved to Haskell when I started to learn about OCaml's module signatures.
<whitequark>
ocaml and, say, ruby, sure
<sdegutis>
And I was like "uhhhh, wth" whereas I didn't have that same thought when I looked at type classes.
<whitequark>
huh?
<whitequark>
a module is a structure and a bunch of existentials attached, that's it
<sdegutis>
In other words, I didn't quite grasp OCaml's polymorphism based on modules, whereas I got Haskell's polymorphism based on type classes very easily.
<whitequark>
well, it's not mutually exclusive, and first-class modules are hardly used for same purpose as typeclasses
<sdegutis>
Oh.
<whitequark>
they have some conceptual similarity, in fact implicits (which are a superset of typeclasses) in ocaml will be based on first-class modules
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: superset is stretching it a little.
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: if you drop the UX, canonicity, focus purely on instance selection - yeah.
<whitequark>
stretching it a little, agreed
<whitequark>
but I like the flexibility of implicits (such that you aren't restricted to just one instance) better
<whitequark>
otherwise they seem fairly similar to me
<sdegutis>
Then maybe OCaml is what I want.
<sdegutis>
I don't much like the non-strict evaluation of Haskell.
<sdegutis>
Although, I did kind of come to really prefer Haskell's syntax.
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: the benefits of typeclasses can be subtle without some deep experience working on larger codebases.
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: ML modules are a much easier marketing story.
<bitemyapp>
"moar powa!"
<bitemyapp>
cf. Scala
<whitequark>
specifically over implicits?
<whitequark>
what would be the benefits of typeclasses?
<sdegutis>
bitemyapp: your use of confer reminds me of a Bible
<bitemyapp>
The subtler reasons are the more important ones.
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<whitequark>
I'm asking what are those
<bitemyapp>
But one could consider why OCaml has +. and why Haskell doesn't need that. That's more of an operational thing, but still very relevant.
<whitequark>
um.
<bitemyapp>
You can write code that is (performant x polymorphic/abstracted)
<whitequark>
+. will go away once implicits get merged
<bitemyapp>
as long as it isn't hidden in an existential
<whitequark>
(well, it will remain for compatibility, but you don't *need* it anymore)
<bitemyapp>
if you stuff it in an existential...well you're back to modules :)
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: tell you what. I'm pretty sure somebody much better at explaining these points (and with 500x more experience than I've got) has a talk that will be coming out on this very issue soon
<sdegutis>
whitequark: to be fair, +. was a big red mark against OCaml in my book
<bitemyapp>
whitequark: when it does, I will link it.
<whitequark>
bitemyapp: like... this is just a test in implicit testsuite
<whitequark>
that's the only answer that ever exists, especially in opensource :p
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<sdegutis>
whitequark: sometimes the answer is "now" and that's usually better
<whitequark>
that just means it is finally ready
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<sdegutis>
;)
<sdegutis>
either way, I'm still on the fence for what my new favorite language is
<sdegutis>
Ever since around 2013, it's been more of a question of "the lesser of N evils".
<sdegutis>
And today it still looks that way.
<sdegutis>
Even though there are other variables (lib support, community, language's future, supported platforms, etc), ultimately there are some features that are better than not having them.
<sdegutis>
e.g., I really don't want to work with a language without polymorphism ever again.
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<adrien>
morning
<adrien>
anyone with a running windows?
<adrien>
actually, nevermind
<adrien>
ohhhhh
<adrien>
ocaml already installs its Makefile.config \o/
<MercurialAlchemi>
adrien: are you trying to do terrible things early in the morning?
<adrien>
nah
<adrien>
I started yesterday evening ;-)
<adrien>
I'm splitting the build of ocamlbuild, ocamldoc, ocamldebug from the compiler
<MercurialAlchemi>
on windows?
<adrien>
the idea being that you can build the compiler, install it and _then_ build these
<adrien>
no, all platforms
<MercurialAlchemi>
right
<adrien>
touching the compiler build system is _way_ too difficult
<adrien>
too many things to do at once
<adrien>
so it's time to divide and conquer :)
<MercurialAlchemi>
well, to divide at least
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<MercurialAlchemi>
:)
<adrien>
I've done many patches for cross-compilation in the compiler and I've been rewarded with a fairly early access to the continuous-integration bot (well, mostly read-only)
<adrien>
which typically means "you're breaking too many things: look and fix"
<adrien>
so now I want to split things so it's more manageable :P
<MercurialAlchemi>
sounds good
<adrien>
(but I'm also introducing a few ugly things)
<MercurialAlchemi>
I assume the build system is yeh ol' makefile?
<adrien>
nah
<adrien>
also yeh ol' shell scripts
<adrien>
annoying part is that I need to take the current usage of compiler devs
<adrien>
i.e. they don't want to install the compiler in order to use it
<MercurialAlchemi>
ugh, shell scripts
<adrien>
not too many hopefully
<adrien>
and fewer and fewer
<adrien>
although I'm adding some now but that's only temporary
<MercurialAlchemi>
you mean they just want to do "make build" and not "make install"?
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<adrien>
installing takes time and they want to be able to test as much as possible without additional delays
<MercurialAlchemi>
I understand the need for a short feedback loop
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<MercurialAlchemi>
though I guess your work will shorten it, depending on how much additional times ocamldebug and friends take to compile
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<MercurialAlchemi>
eg, if you tweak the lexer, you could do that without rebuilding ocamldebug
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<MercurialAlchemi>
adrien: you know anything about tyxml?
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<adrien>
ocamldebug is a very small compile
<adrien>
ocamldoc and ocamlbuild are longer but not much
<adrien>
and for tyxml, I only know one thing: I ask drup about it :D
<MercurialAlchemi>
even so, just winning 5 seconds on something you do many times a day can be a nice win
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<MercurialAlchemi>
for tyxml, I figured :)
<adrien>
:)
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<whitequark>
on a modern-ish machine, a full ocaml build is 2-2.5 minutes
<whitequark>
a laptop even
<adrien>
yup, it's fairly fast, it'll only save a few seconds
<adrien>
btw
<adrien>
if someone wants to make things faster
<adrien>
remove the recursive clean for the testsuite
<adrien>
it's awfully slow
<adrien>
recursive make* clean
<whitequark>
pffff, who even runs test
<adrien>
they're forcing me to! ='(
<adrien>
actually I don't necessarily run them
<whitequark>
real programmers don't run tests, they just wait for bugreports to get in
<adrien>
but "make clean" cleans the testsuite too
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<adrien>
howeer this makes it easy to use .opt variants
<adrien>
.opt: make 2.91s user 0.33s system 87% cpu 3.693 total
<adrien>
bytecode: make 10.18s user 0.44s system 95% cpu 11.157 total
<adrien>
for ocamlbuild
<adrien>
for "make", now for "make allopt"
<adrien>
bytecode: make allopt 17.58s user 1.00s system 96% cpu 19.193 total
<adrien>
.opt: make allopt 5.74s user 0.79s system 91% cpu 7.115 total
<adrien>
and the only changes to ocamlbuild/Makefile are about removing the definitions of OCAMLC/OPT/..., compile and link flags (they're already inside $(OCAMLC) and friends)
<adrien>
I'll probably send that next week and get a beautiful "no way" because of the triplication of the ugly shell script
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<goraci>
in ruby arr =[], arr << 1, arr << "stuff" -> arr ->[1,"stuff"] not in ocaml !! )) welcome to immutable world let arr = [], arr[0]=1 -> Error: This expression has type 'a list This is not a function; it cannot be applied.
<goraci>
it thought programming is ruby )) but it appears that there is a immutable world out there )
<goraci>
just an impression )
<ggole>
That's a list: OCaml arrays are actually mutable
<goraci>
i thought *
<ggole>
(But not lists.)
<goraci>
yea but array not much usable in ocaml i guess
<goraci>
often usable
<ggole>
I tend to use em a fair bit
<goraci>
array something like [| |] lot of typing
<goraci>
i mean it's mindblowing as you declare something and you cann't change it )
<goraci>
want something new declare something new
<goraci>
let new_list = 1::arr;;
<goraci>
when you mutate something for years that of course wow )
<ggole>
Yeah, it is quite a different approach
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<nicoo>
adrien: Yes, OCaml installs its Makefile.config, and it contains a variable saying if/where the X11 libs are installed. Which is very stupid, since labltk got split (and it makes for unfun packaging issues)
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<Guest47510>
Is there a quick and dirty way to do a simple http get request? Finding it needlessly complicated in ocaml
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<rgrinberg>
Guest47510: are you using lwt or async or you don't care?
<Guest47510>
I was trying to use Ocsigen_http_ stuff, but now stumbling around with ocurl
<rgrinberg>
ocurl should be easy enough
<rgrinberg>
don't use ocsigen's http client
<rgrinberg>
if you want async or lwt use cohttp
<mrvn>
if you find anything that includes something to follow links hidden in java script let me know.
<Guest47510>
Do expression that end with ; always need to return ()?
<rgrinberg>
No, but you will get a warning otherwise
<mrvn>
expression don't end in ; and there is no return
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<mimrock>
Does OCaml 4 contains breaking changes? I mean if I have an old piece of software that requires "at least compiler 3.08.02 or newer" what are the chances that it will compile on an up-to-date environment?
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<tokenrove>
mimrock: i resurrected some code i wrote in 2002 without more than warnings, but it wasn't terribly sophisticated.
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<mimrock>
tokenrove: that sounds promising. The code in my case is not _that_ old. Thank you
<dmbaturin>
Guest47510: A sequence of expressions evaluates to the value of its last expression. "ignore 1; ignore 2; 3"
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<mimrock>
error 64 and error 2 :(. I'm sorry for the basic question, I'm sure the solution is somewhere in the manual, but is there a "How to use switch to install a legacy ocaml 3 beside your up-to-date environment for dummies" tutorial out there?
<Drup>
mimrock: install opam
<Drup>
follow the opam installation
<Drup>
and then do "opam switch 3.11.2"
<Drup>
that's as old as you can get, easily
<Drup>
(it's a better idea to fix the code, it's probably easy)
<mimrock>
Drup: That sounds easier than I expected... However, I get compile errors. I am using home-brew, and ocaml 4.02 is already working
<Drup>
you installed opam succesfully ?
<mimrock>
yup. OCaml is running on my machine flawlessy. I even managed to install core and batteries
<Drup>
but 3.11 doesn't compile ? ok
<Drup>
try 3.12
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<dmbaturin>
In GNU ls -l is "hardlink instead of actual copy".
<dmbaturin>
* cp
<dmbaturin>
Not sure if BSD cp has the same, but it should be safe to simply remove that option.
<mimrock>
oh no, cp is not some ocaml tools, but cp, as copy... I feel dumb
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<MercurialAlchemi>
I think Sys.rename actually does link + unlink
<MercurialAlchemi>
which is daft, but nevermind
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<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: so, what about tyxml ? :p
<MercurialAlchemi>
oh
<MercurialAlchemi>
well, I was wondering if anybody was using the syntax extension
<Drup>
not me.
<MercurialAlchemi>
I imagine it's going to be sunsetted
<Drup>
I ... don't advise using it.
<MercurialAlchemi>
well
<MercurialAlchemi>
I was a little surprised to find out that the default way to insert a string (with 'str:') doesn't escape anything
<flux>
mercurialalchemi, sounded a bit incredulous that I tried it.. and it does use the rename system call
<MercurialAlchemi>
then I figured out that I could live with combinators
<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: I find the combinators easier to work with and easier to read
<MercurialAlchemi>
flux: but rename doesn't work across filesystem boundaries
<MercurialAlchemi>
flux: I think
<flux>
that is correct
<flux>
link doesn't either..
<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: it all depends on how many external designers you need to work with :)
<MercurialAlchemi>
flux: not unless you ln -s, indeed
<mimrock>
I replaced cp to ln in the makefile, and now it's working... actually it's not, but the current issue is about some missing libs, so thank you Drup & dmbaturin
<flux>
mercurialalchemi, well, using link -s for doing a rename would be unwise :)
<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: yes, right
<Drup>
that's the only reason
<Drup>
but the syntax extension doesn't help all that much with that
<MercurialAlchemi>
flux: yes
* MercurialAlchemi
peeks at CCIO
<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: I have a plan for that, but it's ... not ready
<MercurialAlchemi>
hm, no move or copy either...
<Drup>
mostly because I have absolutely no time to allocate to it.
<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: that's a good reason
<MercurialAlchemi>
that said, I'm impatient to try out js_of_ocaml
<Drup>
not having time ? meh
<MercurialAlchemi>
especially since the scope is changing from "generate static website with ocaml" to "run a dynamic website"
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<MercurialAlchemi>
it's a very good reason, I have a long list of unread books and undone things precisely because of that
<Drup>
it may be a good one, but it's not satisfying
<MercurialAlchemi>
agreed
<Drup>
(especially since we lack manpower so much in the ocsigen project)
<MercurialAlchemi>
but software engineering is also about working with constraints
<MercurialAlchemi>
sometimes it's better to allocate more time to a single thing and actually get it done
<Drup>
well, currently, I can't allocate time to anything, but it's another story :)
<MercurialAlchemi>
:)
<MercurialAlchemi>
seen from the outside, ocsigen looks very impressive
<Drup>
yep :)
<MercurialAlchemi>
in a way, it's the polar opposite of node.js
<Drup>
in which way ?
<Drup>
(I would rather agree, but there are several ways to see it)
<rgrinberg1>
polar opposite in number of users
<Drup>
that too, unfortunatly
<rgrinberg1>
cheap shot :P
<MercurialAlchemi>
in the "let's move all the things to a fascist language" sense
<Drup>
ah, ues
<Drup>
yes*
<MercurialAlchemi>
rgrinberg1: if popularity was correlated with quality and solidity, we would all be doing PHP
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<Drup>
well, node.js doesn't do the whole client/server integration at all, some people have done that on top of it (meteor.js) but it's still rather young
<Drup>
and since it's all dynamic, it rather sucks
<MercurialAlchemi>
yeah, "get the same problems you have on your frontend, but in a potentially much larger codebase"
<MercurialAlchemi>
now, if layout was also amenable to strong typing...
<Drup>
layout ?
<Drup>
ah, yeah, screw layout
<Drup>
javascript is crap, but at least you can compile something sane to it, and it will work
<Drup>
yeah, ok, it hardcode MVC into your application
<MercurialAlchemi>
that said, the UI part works, you get widgets that you can resize, virtual lists, this kind of thing
<Drup>
and all that because the power of abstraction is virtually none in javascript :(
<MercurialAlchemi>
but you don't deal with CSS/HTML (well, almost)
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<MercurialAlchemi>
the power of suckage of CSS is there, though
<Drup>
and it doesn't solve the layout problem at all
<Drup>
components are not the biggest issue
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<dmbaturin>
Nothing solves the layout problem. We need a new world wide web for it.
<MercurialAlchemi>
what would you say is the biggest issue?
<MercurialAlchemi>
dmbaturin: one with a single screen size
<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: see my previous link
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<dmbaturin>
MercurialAlchemi: No, we should switch to voice input/output as some scifi novels predicted.
* MercurialAlchemi
reads
<MercurialAlchemi>
dmbaturin: we already have screen readers
<dmbaturin>
(On a serious note, it bothers me that the web became virtually inaccessible through alternative media such as screen readers and even printers)
<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: well, I don't know if that's the biggest issue
<MercurialAlchemi>
I think I'd already be satisfied with a layout system similar to something commonly found in UI toolkits
<Drup>
MercurialAlchemi: how do you center a div vertically ? :]
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<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: you move your head around?
<Drup>
no, flexbox doesn't work if the content of your div is slightly funky
<dmbaturin>
Drup: Constraint CSS is interesting.
<MercurialAlchemi>
Drup: but yeah, I know
<MercurialAlchemi>
fucking CSS
* MercurialAlchemi
burns CSS and the box model
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<rgrinberg1>
Drup: looks interesting, although I think I'd take an ocaml DSL over gss
<Drup>
oh, sure, that barely changes anything
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<Drup>
rgrinberg1: I mean, having something which expressivity is sane is already such a fabulous step forward. Typing would be cherry on the top, but it's not the main point :)
<rgrinberg1>
my brain just can't handle more lexical conventions
<Drup>
:p
<Drup>
I know elm as some sort of combinator thingy for layout, but I never looked at it closely. I don't think it improves much from CSS, though.
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<Axle>
is there an irc channel for opam?
<Drup>
nope, ask here :
<Drup>
:)
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<Axle>
:) I'm on osx, having trouble installing dbm
<Axle>
I've got /usr/lib/libdbm.dylib, and I've also installed gdbm via homebrew
<Axle>
opam reports that ndbm can't be found
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<Axle>
was wondering if there's some way to specify the library's location, or, like homebrew, if there's some way to drop down into the "build" directory and tweak the build commands used
<whitequark>
depends on the exact package if you can specify additional flags
<Drup>
Axle: can you pastebin the output of opam with -v ?
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