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<enjolras_>
hi, i have a C stubs function taking ocaml value, and using CAMLlocal, am i supposed to use something like CAMLreturn?
<enjolras_>
if so, how ?
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<mrvn>
you must and CAMLreturn foo;
<enjolras_>
but it says it can't cast it to value
<AltGr>
Wondering: about merlin's emacs mode, didn't anyone release how bad a shortcut C-c C-x is ?
<AltGr>
(C-x C-c is "quit emacs"; and c and x happen to be next to each other)
<acieroid`>
AltGr: I disabled C-x C-c in emacs because of this. Since I don't often need to close emacs that's not a problem for me (and I M-x quit when I need to)
<enjolras_>
".opam/4.02.1/lib/ocaml/caml/memory.h:228:3: error: incompatible types when returning type ‘value’ but ‘struct Bytes’ was expected"
<enjolras_>
that's what i get when i use CAMLreturn
<enjolras_>
i'm not returning a word, but a struct
<AltGr>
acieroid`, if I'm not alone it may deserve to be reported...
<enjolras_>
i guess i coud just pass a pointer in argument
<Kakadu>
Maybe CAMLreturnT?
<def`>
AltGr: I agree :). I disabled C-x C-c :D
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<enjolras_>
kakadu: right. Thanks
<Kakadu>
Enjolras_: It just casts return value to `value`. Maybe it is not what you want
<AltGr>
def`, I didn't expect that the majority would actually keep C-c C-x and disable C-x C-c though :)
<enjolras_>
no, it doesn't. It just set local_caml_roots but the return type is what you pass as first argument
<enjolras_>
it does what i need :)
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<def`>
:), quite curiously, I use my window manager to close windows. I know I have strange opinions, but I had no need C-x C-c (and to processes, I send signals :))
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<def`>
But you are right, those lacking sanity should still be able to close their emacs windows.
<def`>
AltGr: Feel free to open an issue, I have nothing better to offer (... I hate default bindings of any software, except maybe some of vim), the community might have a more informed opinion
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<orbifx>
hello all
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<zozozo>
hello
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<ely-se>
h
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<companion_cube>
yo
<orbifx>
so, the question from yesterday is pending
<orbifx>
is the Matrix programmed in Ocaml?
<zozozo>
orbifx: what do you mean ?
<ely-se>
no, the Matrix is programmed in Common Lisp.
<orbifx>
would The Architect use ocaml to program the matrix
<orbifx>
ely-se: are you sure?
<ely-se>
not sure, I think it was actually Emacs Lisp.
<ely-se>
and it runs on TempleOS
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<orbifx>
no way it was emacs anything
<Leonidas>
Common Lisp implemented in HolyC
<orbifx>
can see it being implemented in Common Lisp
<dmbaturin>
Leonidas: It simply runs on a symbolics machine that can run it natively.
<dmbaturin>
The Architect is actually RMS.
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<ely-se>
Rasmuss Matthew Stroustrup
<Leonidas>
Rasmuss Math-you Stroustrup
<ely-se>
Rasmus Lerdorf is my hero.
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<orbifx>
dmbaturin: hehe
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<Drup>
AltGr, def` : I went the other way. I disabled merlin's thing and replaced by C-c C-v
<Drup>
or something
<Drup>
companion_cube: it looks so much like a bunzli library :D
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<orbifx>
who is this bunzli guy Drup ?
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<Soni>
so I heard you can put a #! in ocaml bytecode?! (e.g. #!/usr/bin/ocaml<newline><ocaml compiled bytecode>)
<enjolras_>
isn't that ocamlrun ?
<Soni>
idk
<Soni>
I don't know ocaml
<flux>
soni, ocaml has two modes of compilation, one for bytecode and one for native
<flux>
soni, when targeting bytecode, it creates binaries that have ie. #!/usr/bin/ocamlrun\nbytecode goes here
<Soni>
WHAT
<flux>
and when native, well then it's a native binary
<Soni>
what next, you can shove ocaml bytecode in the middle of ocaml source code?!
<flux>
no, I don't see the point of that :)
<flux>
third option is to just make an 'ocaml script' by sticking what you put, ie. #!/usr/bin/ocaml and it runs it just as if you used ocaml interactively to enter that stuff
<Drup>
Soni: why are you so surprised ?
<Soni>
Drup, python is sane enough not to do it
<Soni>
because it's just insane!
<Drup>
why ?
<Drup>
well, first: what is insane ? having two compilation scheme ?
<Soni>
and altho lua supports it, lua doesn't do it by default, so that's even more insane!
<Soni>
no
<Soni>
the #! in bytecode
<ggole>
I don't see a problem
<ggole>
Maybe on windows
<Soni>
does java bytecode support putting a #! before it?! how about <insert some other popular bytecode here>?! they don't! it's insane! it makes detecting bytecode harder!
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<Soni>
(because you have to strip the #! first)
<flux>
soni, what do you want to do with the bytecode anyway? besides, if it's always done that way, you know to strip it.
<ggole>
That's not really very difficult.
<enjolras_>
Soni: that's how unix was supposed to work
<flux>
soni, what would be a better option? this way you get to actually run your programs.
<enjolras_>
putting #! is the unix way to start custm interpreted programs
<flux>
soni, is it a problem for you to strip #!/usr/bin/python when you use your python programs?-)
<enjolras_>
which a bytecode is
<Soni>
well lua doesn't document #! in bytecode as far as I know so most ppl don't check for it there, which makes lua slightly more insane than ocaml
<enjolras_>
it's not insane
<Soni>
Enjolras_, linux has a method to link magic numbers(?) to commands
<Soni>
/that/ is the sane way to do it
<Drup>
You use a lot the world "insane" when you mean "different than what is done in python"
<flux>
really
<flux>
adding special kernel support is the sane way to do stuff..
<enjolras_>
it's the way it's the portable way to it
<enjolras_>
and it is like that for 40years
<flux>
besides I think that way fall out of favor years ago
<enjolras_>
since 3BSD i think
<flux>
maybe a decade
<Soni>
#! is for SOURCE files
<Soni>
e.g. #!/bin/bash
<Drup>
Soni: why ?
<enjolras_>
Soni: no
<flux>
soni, have you ever used gzexe?
<enjolras_>
#! is for interpreted runnable format
<Drup>
Soni: #! is for telling how to execute something
<Soni>
gzexe?
<flux>
or used shar
<enjolras_>
what's the difference between source and bytecode ?
<enjolras_>
its the same thing
<Drup>
well, especially in the python and Lua world :D
<enjolras_>
sure, it's probably not the best way to do it for a lot of reason. But it's like that and it works
<enjolras_>
it's not insane. Just an historical glitch
<Soni>
flux, gzexe creates a shell script with appended binary data?
<Soni>
I mean... I wouldn't really call that /sane/... just... not as insane...
<Soni>
self-decompressing gz files would be insane on the other hand
<enjolras_>
what is the difference between ocal bytecode and a shell script in your opinion ?
<enjolras_>
i don't see any
<flux>
so far the main issue seems to be that soni classifies this kind of use of #! insane
<flux>
I think we can live with that :)
<enjolras_>
flux: the main issue is filesystem layout
<enjolras_>
but usually people use /usr/bin/env interpreter to work around the issue
<Drup>
flux: especially considering it has been working fine for so many years ^^
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<Soni>
if you're gonna be that insane, make it so you can put bytecode in the middle of source code files
<enjolras_>
you haven't explain why it is insane yet
<flux>
soni, byte code is not really interesting in ocaml to use in that way
<ggole>
That's just silly
<flux>
I have never ever needed to access byte code in any fashion
<flux>
other than create it and copy it around
<enjolras_>
(and btw, putting inline assembly in various langagues, is that insane too ?)
<Soni>
in lua, bytecode = function/closure, and they're first class objects, so it makes sense to put bytecode inside source code, even tho it's insane
<Soni>
Enjolras_, how do you mean inline assembly?
<flux>
there are actually some tools that work in the bytecode level, but that doesn't really mean the user of such tools would need to look at it
<Drup>
Soni: I think you have a rather large misunderstanding of what bytecode is in OCaml
<Soni>
Drup, maybe
<enjolras_>
Soni: you cannot do that in ocaml,or at least not without working hard to do it
<Soni>
usually bytecode = binary data (e.g. Lua or Python)
<Drup>
It's not even close to an AST or to a slightly transformed source code, like it is in python (or Lua, it seems)
<Drup>
It's really a product of compilation
<ggole>
Python and lua bytecode isn't really that different to ocaml bytecode
<Drup>
which produces an executable
<ggole>
They're all byte-level, non-textual representations of programs that are arranged for convenient interpretation
<Drup>
ggole: well, python's bytecode is almost the same as the code source, just faster to parse ..
<enjolras_>
rthat's the definition of bytecode ggole
<enjolras_>
but i think ocaml bytecode is closer to java than to python
<Drup>
Soni: and no, it's not "data"
<Soni>
Drup, everything is data
<enjolras_>
it's more a virtual machine language than a barely transformed and encoded ast
<enjolras_>
like python
<ggole>
I don't see much difference
<ggole>
Different designs, same idea
<Drup>
Soni: You are good at non-descriptive affirmations, are you ? :)
<Soni>
everything is data
<Soni>
if it's bytecode data or machine code data is up to the interpreter (in this case, ocaml's or the CPU, respectively)
<Soni>
you can even shove 5 different CPU instruction sets into a single binary if you want to
<flux>
soo.. shell scripts, sounds like they are data as well..
<flux>
yet they comes with #!/bin/sh in front of them.. the insanity!
<Soni>
yes, but they're text data instead of binary data
<ggole>
So?
<Soni>
(text data is a subset of binary data)
<flux>
so I guess it stops being insane if ocaml bytecode was base64?
<Soni>
well yes
<Soni>
but no
<Soni>
base64ing bytecode to make it non-insane is insane
<ggole>
You need to base64 it then, to make it non-insane.
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<ggole>
And #! files aren't "text", they're just files
<Soni>
yes
<Soni>
but #! should only be used for text
<ggole>
Nope.
<Soni>
yes
<ggole>
The interpretation is, by design, up to the interpreter.
<Soni>
meh
<Soni>
fine
<Soni>
I have an opinion
<flux>
in any case, the bytecode is used basically only for debugging and faster compiling
<ggole>
And portability
<ggole>
And the toplevel
<ggole>
And compiling to js
<flux>
but toplevel doesn't use bytecode binaries
<flux>
it uses bytecode objects
<ggole>
Oh, I see. Right.
<flux>
they are of the sane variety
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<enjolras_>
Soni: your opinion is not the same as the POSIX standard
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<enjolras_>
unfortunatly for your, the POSIX standard matters more than your opinion in this area
<Soni>
the POSIX standard only says #! is parsed
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<enjolras_>
isn't bytecode parsed ?
<ggole>
Not by the kernel/exec
<enjolras_>
is shell parsed by kernel/exec ?
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<enjolras_>
exec detects the magic number for shebang and reads until EOL
<flux>
I'm not sure what you're asking, nothing in the lines following #! is parsed by the kernel/exec, and everything in it is
<enjolras_>
and then call the interpreter at this path if it exists and pass it the remaining of data, un parsed
<Drup>
ggole: and compiling to PIC :D
<Drup>
well, executing on PIC
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<ggole>
Enjolras_: I think the interpreter is invoked with the filename as argument, rather than being passed the data
<enjolras_>
ggole: yeah, that's right.
<ggole>
So there's often a little hack to ignore #! as the first line
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<orbifx>
lol
<orbifx>
so much sanity and insanity
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<palomer>
is there an ocaml boilerplate generator?
<Drup>
it's a bit vague, which kind of boilerplate :p
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<ggole>
ppx, maybe
<orbifx>
palomer: ocaml doesn't have boilerplates
<Drup>
That is unfortunately not true :
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<orbifx>
;)
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<Denommus>
orbifx: compare the amount of code for a generic data structure you make by using sigs and functors with the amount of code you get from a typeclass
<Denommus>
orbifx: although module implicits will probably make that A LOT shorter
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<Drup>
Denommus: It's not always that clear cut, especially if you count all the function you have to prefix with type class constraints
<Denommus>
Drup: yeah
<Denommus>
Drup: but saying that there's no boilerplate is a very careless claim anyway
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<dmbaturin>
palomer: Module signatures can be produced with ocamlc -i
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<dalastboss>
so for a compilers course i am using a parser generated with ocamlyacc, and im passing all parsing test cases except for this one
<dalastboss>
it doesnt fail due to a logical error, it just literally causes my parser to stack overflow
<dalastboss>
is there anything that can be done about this?
<dalastboss>
like i guess pre-processing it is an option but thats really messy
<def`>
dalastboss: the problem is your grammar rule is likely right-recursive
<def`>
this test was clearly crafted to detect this
<def`>
rewrite it as a left-recursive rule, it will execute in constant space
<def`>
stack*
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<def`>
wharf what I'm saying is stupid, it has to be recursive... show the grammar if possible
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<palomer>
dmbaturin: I was thinking about something that would transform “type bar = {a:int; b:foo}” into “let t_bar = {a;b} = t_combine_bar (t_a a) (t_b b)”
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<dalastboss>
implemented a left-recursive rule, running the test cases now
<dalastboss>
thanks def`
<def`>
dalastboss: I'm not convinced it will help :/ sry
<def`>
can you paste the rule?
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<dmbaturin>
palomer: You want to generate the 'a -> 'b -> {a: 'a; b: 'b} part?
<dalastboss>
still stack overflows unfortunately
<dalastboss>
the right recursive version was
<dalastboss>
stmts ::= empty | stmt stmts
<dalastboss>
and block ::= LBRACE stmts RBRACE
<def`>
yep the problem is with the block production
<def`>
it has to consume stack space to remember to consume RBRACE
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<def`>
so... Either increase the stack size or... maybe you can inline the rule to some extent ....
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<def`>
This is ugly, I don't see how to avoid that.
<dalastboss>
agh, darn
<dalastboss>
alright, i will look into it
<dalastboss>
thank you
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<def`>
(but yes, generally for rules like stmts, prefer left recursion)
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<def`>
left recursion is tail recursion for LR :)
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<mv>
In OCaml, what's the best/easiest way to add print_string to the code for print debugging ?
<dmbaturin>
mv: let foo x = Printf.printf "x is %s" x; bar x
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<mv>
dmbaturin, of course. Thanks, I forgot about ;
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<companion_cube>
I should ask thomasga what his CI project will do
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<Algebr`>
Can opam tell me when a particular version of a library was released.
<Algebr`>
rather package
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